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JJJ
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:13 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 99):
Except at least one other car passed the same test that the TDI failed and met EPA regulations, a BMW X5, so clearly the EPA regulations are not unattainable. What they may be, is unattainable for budget-friendly diesels.

As I said before, it was probably a matter of timing. Current VW diesels more than meet EPA criteria, because they were made to comply with the stricter Euro 6, but they weren't available early enough.

They thought no one would notice while Euro 6 engines were getting ready by fiddling a bit on the software side.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:22 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 100):
As I said before, it was probably a matter of timing. Current VW diesels more than meet EPA criteria, because they were made to comply with the stricter Euro 6, but they weren't available early enough.

Apparently not - VW has admitted that these same devices are used in Europe as well (11+ million vehicles). France and the UK are starting investigations, and are also starting to look at a bunch of other manufacturers as well.

This could get big...
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:26 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 100):
As I said before, it was probably a matter of timing. Current VW diesels more than meet EPA criteria, because they were made to comply with the stricter Euro 6, but they weren't available early enough.

As previously mentioned, however, current VW diesels, that should meet Euro 6 standards, were also found to be cheating. That is why the recall/investigation includes 2015 models and the EPA has refused to certify the 2016's (which means VW can't sell them).

It is likely that emission controls activated the diesels don't have the power and refinement that Americans expect (Europeans are a bit more use to/accepting of diesel clatter and slower cars for example) and the fuel economy to advertise against hybrids prevalent in the US (it is well known in enthusiast circles that the diesels routinely beat EPA highway mileage, but VW can only advertise the EPA fuel economy numbers) .
 
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sebolino
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:29 pm

Oh, diesel cars are polluting pieces of crap ? What a surprise !!
Unfortunately, European (and especially French) consumers don't care about pollution and health, they prefer driving with an artificially low priced fuel.

And the joke about the particle filters should be unveiled too: when it must be "regenerated", it burns the "big" particles into very thin particles which can go out of the filter and are much more dangerous ... Well done !
 
TheSonntag
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:00 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 99):
Except at least one other car passed the same test that the TDI failed and met EPA regulations, a BMW X5, so clearly the EPA regulations are not unattainable.


I just hope for BMW they didn't use the same software   
 
B777LRF
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:12 pm

I was a relatively late convertant to diesel, having always associated it with either trucks, busses or slow and smoky taxis. Hardly anybody would buy a diesel in the 80's here, and for rather good reasons: The engines were, by and large, behaving like tractors and had the performance of an arthritic asthmatic.

Then something happened, and slowly really good diesel engines became available; the combination of low-pressure turbo's and common-rail injection had large parts to play in this. Suddenly diesels were no longer boring and underpowered, and began to deliver performance on-par with their equivalent petrol powered models. Sometimes the performance was even better, particularly in mid-range accelleration, and the milage was always much better. In countries where diesel costs less than petrol, large swathes of the market started moving. That included me too, and the diesel powered BMWs I've owned have been masterpieces; a 250hp engine delivering 600nm of twist from 1800 rpm is a joy to drive.

I have, however, always been a tad suspicious of the pollution numbers. Sure, a 2015 BMW emits a lot less black smoke than a 1995 ditto, even when the 1995 was new, but it's still diesel, and it's still a bit smelly. The urea injection idea I found odd, and learning that DPF equipped cars only served to make harmful small particles into even more harmful smaller particles, well, it wasn't much of a surprise.

So I abandoned diesel for my latest car and, must honestly say, am feeling more than just a tad smug these days. Even though the torque from a dieselturbo was sorely missing, when attempting to haul the family over the Alps at a decent rate of knots this summer.
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casinterest
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:13 pm

I am actually wondering if VW will survive this mess. The depths to which this deception went involves a lot of working capital funds that are tied up in existing and planned product lines. Even assuming all customers just let this go, the financial costs are still mind boggling. Assuming car buyers going forward show less interest in the VW lines, and this gets pretty scary for VW as a company.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 104):
I just hope for BMW they didn't use the same software

The clue here is that the BMW and other vehicles that use DEF and SCR.

VW appears to cheat and not use the DEF/SCR technology that was available because of the cost. I would guess on production line type situation probably $500 or less per vehicle.
Any way at $500 per vehicle and 11M vehicles that would equate to $5.5B.

Okie
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 107):
VW appears to cheat and not use the DEF/SCR technology that was available because of the cost. I would guess on production line type situation probably $500 or less per vehicle.

VW uses DEF on their newest diesels. At least in the Golf, unsure about the 2015 Jetta.

But it is difficult to pass emissions without it. Mazda wanted to release their diesel on the Mazda6 without DEF in the US but scrapped those plans as they couldn't do it with desired performance.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 106):
Assuming car buyers going forward show less interest in the VW lines, and this gets pretty scary for VW as a company.

Well VW as a company will survive. But VW as a brand in the US will suffer; it will be interesting to see how much. They already struggle in US, with an image of poor reliability and a lineup that consistently does not align with market demands. Their diesel tech was basically their only redeeming quality in the eyes of many consumers which is why the diesels are ~25% of VW's sales, a much much higher percentage compared to most in the US.

Audi will be fine.

Full disclosure I own a 2015 Golf (gas version though).
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:22 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 90):
but you can't argue the US is better without them, without taking into account that the US has much more gas guzzlers, that certainly do nothing good to the environment. Hardly a beacon of environmentalism

Yet, our skies are cleaner. Our pollution has improved quite a bit over the last 20 years while Europe's has reached near-crisis levels, so yes, I have argued for years since hybrids arrived that we are better off without them. Your pollution levels prove it.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 96):
In the US only, in Europe they sell multiple full electric and hybrid models. E-Golf, E-UP, Golf GTE, A3 E-tron.

VW and Winterkoprn have a long history of resisting electrification. They have only recently acquiesced while kicking and screaming about it the entire time.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 100):
Current VW diesels more than meet EPA criteria, because they were made to comply with the stricter Euro 6,

That remains to be seen, but as of now, the 2016 models said to be compliant are sitting in the ports, now without certification. And for the last time, Euro 6 is only catching up to CARB standards. No diesels are sold in the US without meeting CARB, they won't bother to introduce a model that is illegal in California and the 13+ other states who follow the same emission standards. Believe it or not, your emission standards were not the strictest.
 
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OA260
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 101):
This could get big...

Certain could and is. Shame to see another famous German brand name caught up in cheating and corruption.


Sky News reports that the Chief Exec Martin Winterkorn has lost support of major shareholders !
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:07 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 108):
Well VW as a company will survive. But VW as a brand in the US will suffer; it will be interesting to see how much. They already struggle in US, with an image of poor reliability and a lineup that consistently does not align with market demands. Their diesel tech was basically their only redeeming quality in the eyes of many consumers which is why the diesels are ~25% of VW's sales, a much much higher percentage compared to most in the US

Part of the driver for the VW diesel sales was the $78M in tax credits that the Obama administration set aside for the purchasers of VW "clean diesel" technology.
Makes you wonder if the US government will require the purchasers to return $78M in tax credits for a clean energy vehicle that pollutes at 40 times the limit?

I am sure the VW reputation on the diesel side will suffer but the key issues on GM and the throttle on Toyota did not really move the needle much at all on sales.

Okie
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 111):
I am sure the VW reputation on the diesel side will suffer but the key issues on GM and the throttle on Toyota did not really move the needle much at all on sales.

But GM and especially Toyota were starting from much better footing. VW (the brand) only sold ~367,000 cars last year in the US. Chevy and Toyota both sold over 2 million. Even Subaru sells more cars than VW now by a large margin and Mazda is quickly catching up.
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:29 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 89):
.it's going to be ugly, and the closer it gets to the CEO the uglier it'll be.

The CEO is already in the line of fire, but doubtful if he is at a level that might face prison time. That is lower down the line. Maybe.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 90):
Hardly a beacon of environmentalism.

It amazes me that with all of our natural gas in the US that we haven't expanded that fuel use in cars and trucks. There is no use for diesel in viewless that can effeciently use natural gas. If the car companies need help with natural gas vehicles they can aways head on down to Australia where Ford and GM (Holden) have had natural gas in taxis for decades.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 93):
Technically it's fraud to deliver a better performing product to customers, but it doesn't bother me.

Technically VW just got caught in a massive, illegal cheat that is international in scope. They have already set aside $7.3 BILLION just to fix the cars. Various fines from all countries (and California) will be on top of that figure. Then you have all the class action attorneys sharpening their knives.

I really hope your employer doesn't go for the cheats like this - it is concerning that an engineer is so accepting of cheating on government standards.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 93):
People like you writing things like that is why projects end up behind schedule and over budget.

Bullcrap. Don't try to pas the buck on engineering overruns. The Defense Department laid out what they wanted and the primary contractors did THEIR engineering work and laid out a dollar bid, Per usual there are massive cost overruns and delays and now you are blaming someone in the public who criticizes those engineering companies.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 93):
But a modicum of thought and analysis shows a reality that is a bit more complicated.

Typical of an engineer to try to take something very simple and make something complicate in theory.

So hang on little boy and see if you can follow:

Infrastructure costs money to build and maintain.

Some of that money comes from the federal government

Some of that money comes from fuel taxes

Politicians don't like to raise taxes that irritates the voters

Taxing out of state truck drivers doesn't irritate the voters

Big Rigs are therefore a safe target for raising taxes

And, shocker of shockers, even President Reagan increased fuel taxes 5¢ per gallon to increase funding on interstates. (Pity he didn't include an auto COLA increase). Looks like that once worshipped "Conservative" is actually a closet liberal when it comes to infrastructure.

Understand it now? It is not about any theory except the ones that identify how to increase taxes by having out of staters pay for the increase. And it's not just roads. Check to see the rate for hotel taxes your city charges. Revenues for the city government with out of owners footing the bill.

Got that, Little Boy?
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:33 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 99):
Even with our gas guzzlers and on average higher rate of car ownership and drivership, the air in our cities is on average cleaner than yours as our emissions standards have for decades been tougher than those found in Europe--our air quality has been improving, while Europe's has been declining. As has already been pointed out, heavy reliance on diesels simply for gas mileage and carbon emissions is clearly offset by other pollutants. In English the expression is "Missing the forest for the trees."
Quoting mham001 (Reply 109):
Yet, our skies are cleaner. Our pollution has improved quite a bit over the last 20 years while Europe's has reached near-crisis levels, so yes, I have argued for years since hybrids arrived that we are better off without them. Your pollution levels prove it.

How do you measure air pollution ? Right now Los Angeles is more polluted than Paris (yes, there is live data) : http://aqicn.org/map/world/

Furthermore, I contend those cities aren't even comparable. Los Angeles is built on the ocean. Paris is at the bottom of a bowl, with the sea 200Km away. I contend that if you replaced the average French car with the average US car, the composition of the Parisian pollution might change, but the result wouldn't necessarily be better. Paris is very small (you can walk from one end to the other in a couple of hours, I've done it), yet millions of cars are driven in it or in its vicinity every day.

When Paris made the news last time because of pollution, a big part of it came from agriculture (lots of farmland around the city), and another big part from coal powerplants in...Germany.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
How do you measure air pollution ? Right now Los Angeles is more polluted than Paris (yes, there is live data) : http://aqicn.org/map/world/

You have to be careful with comparing live data as you have to consider time differences which effects how polluted the air is. After all it is just a little before 1 pm in LA but a little before 10 pm in Paris. Which one do you think has more people out and about and producing more emissions at the moment?
For example, in the past 2 days Paris has had a higher PM2.5 rating, and a much much higher NO2 rating (hmmm...   ), while having a lower ozone and CO rating.

http://aqicn.org/city/france/paris/autoroute-a1-saint-denis/
http://aqicn.org/city/losangeles/reseda/

Also, despite being on the water LA is still in a basin which is why it is more susceptible to smog than many other US cities.

[Edited 2015-09-22 12:53:20]
 
planewasted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 7:58 pm

Wow, maybe this will be one of the very few times VW actually admits that something is wrong with their vehicles and recalls them!   

Talking about European emission laws. I was shocked this summer when Germany gave my 1996 GMC van with a 5.7 liter engine the highest environmental score for city driving. Wonderful car by the way, close to 800 000 kms (497097 miles) and still going strong! For diesels they are a bit more strict, a diesel particulate filter filter is needed, but no more as I understand it, maybe a German can chime in.  

[Edited 2015-09-22 13:04:58]
 
travelin man
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
Furthermore, I contend those cities aren't even comparable. Los Angeles is built on the ocean.

Los Angeles is ringed by 10,000 foot (3,000 meter) mountain ranges that trap pollution, and Paris is not. So yes, the cities are not comparable but not for the reason you identified.

L.A. has also reduced nitrogen dioxide by 33% and fine particles by 47% over the past 2 decades.

https://news.usc.edu/76761/las-environmental-success-story-cleaner-air-healthier-kids/
 
Marcus
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 8:30 pm

I have lived in both Paris and LA, comparing the driving habits/needs, engine displacements, weather, sorrounding landscape, traffic jams, idle times and lenght of car trips between both cities is delusional.
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 9:36 pm

Quoting planewasted (Reply 116):
Talking about European emission laws. I was shocked this summer when Germany gave my 1996 GMC van with a 5.7 liter engine the highest environmental score for city driving. Wonderful car by the way, close to 800 000 kms (497097 miles) and still going strong! For diesels they are a bit more strict, a diesel particulate filter filter is needed, but no more as I understand it, maybe a German can chime in.  

Well your 1996 vehicle has to respect 1996 standards, with pollution margins that take into consideration that it's old. So as long as it's half decently maintained it will pass.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
apodino
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:10 pm

The CEO is going to be out. His contract was up anyways, and there is no way he gets renewed especially since he already had issues with the BOD. This is going to have broader implications though. The German market tanked today, and with calls for increased oversight the US big 3 will be in the crosshairs as well. Angela Merkel had a mess already, and this doesn't help. And with the Fed citing global concerns this is only going to hurt the US markets as well.

That being said, someone needs to pay for this. They locked up a peanut guy today for Food Poisoning in his own products. If more CEOs are held accountable...you will see more and more money spent on safety, which will boil over into our beloved airline industry as well.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:23 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 98):
But essentially, in order to sell their cars, they had to pass a crash test and and emissions test. They designed a car that passed said tests.

Yes... but you have not only to follow the words of a law, but also its intention. What objective does the law intend to protect? The judges would yawn at an argument like "Well, but our car passed the test!". More outrageously, VW clearly intended to defeat the purpose of this test.

Quoting planewasted (Reply 116):
Talking about European emission laws. I was shocked this summer when Germany gave my 1996 GMC van with a 5.7 liter engine the highest environmental score for city driving.

This is perhaps because the environmental score (measured in grades A to G, G being the worst) basically means pollution divided by total weight of your car. So a SUV can be as environmentally "friendly" as some VW Golf models.

By the way, VW once got caught because they once advertised one of their cars with the grade G by contrasting it by the even worse grade H - which does not officially exist: http://www.duh.de/uploads/pics/Montage_Labels_mit_Seite_und_Rahmen.jpg


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Flighty
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 95):
So do I. the day I have to lie will be my last time on here.

This is a good healthy community because we all do the best we can. I can't always tell the truth about true info that I know, or what my work is now (not airlines). But I also am not gonna lie. And a lot of times, I got zero clue and people have illuminated a lot of topics, including all over the world. A.net is only what we make of it.  
Quoting apodino (Reply 120):
If more CEOs are held accountable...
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 121):
"Well, but our car passed the test!". More outrageously, VW clearly intended to defeat the purpose of this test.

Ah. The Lance Armstrong argument. He passed the drug tests. Therefore, he tested clean. Therefore, for the purposes of sport, he was clean.

Except not.
 
DDR
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:06 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 73):

Glad you agree that U.S. Suburbs are nice. Nice to finally see you say something positive about the U.S. rather than bash it at every opportunity. Jealous much?
 
OMP777X
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:16 pm

And the lawsuits have begun to pour in. I can't imagine how badly this will cost VW in the long run.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/ny-ma...al-reason-bought/story?id=33951902

Best,

OMP777X
"Happy Flighting!"
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 122):
Ah. The Lance Armstrong argument. He passed the drug tests. Therefore, he tested clean. Therefore, for the purposes of sport, he was clean.

This analogy is spot on. Thanks. How can one pass a test while at the same time defeating this test's purpose? Only in the minds of pure-bread cheaters and scoundrels.


Another side of this topic... there is the DMCA, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which in many instances forbids reverse engineering of software or computer chip sets, because copyrights could be infringed. Some experts say that the DMCA is the very reason VW's cheat was not detected earlier.

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 124):

Art Levin, the VW customer in this report, says the re-sale value of his car is now drastically lowered.

Are the affected VW cars street legal anymore? Can the positive emission test result be retracted?


David

David

[Edited 2015-09-22 16:26:41]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 111):
Makes you wonder if the US government will require the purchasers to return $78M in tax credits for a clean energy vehicle that pollutes at 40 times the limit?

I bet that the Government will decide to simply add that $78 Million to the fines and let the customers keep their money.

Quoting Okie (Reply 107):
Any way at $500 per vehicle and 11M vehicles that would equate to $5.5B.

And VW has already set aside $7.3 Billion just to fix the cars sold so they would have been ahead by building it right in the first place. That $7.3, BTW, does not include all of the fines & legal fees that are heading their way from all countries that got the illegal crs, or the class action suits.

Quoting Polot (Reply 108):
Well VW as a company will survive

But there will be major hits on their profits for some time to come.

Quoting Polot (Reply 108):
But VW as a brand in the US will suffer; it will be interesting to see how much.

That is going to depend on how fast they resolve all of the legal issues, at the US & California levels, settle class action suits and fix up all the cars on the road.

I think you will also are going to need to move to very aggressive marketing and that means rebates we saw when the auto market crashed. I'm talking about 10% or more in rebates, plus discounts that the dealers will need to provide. And I believe that they need to match the Korean cars on warranties.

Quoting apodino (Reply 120):

The CEO is going to be out.

I wonder how many other executives, managers and engineers are going to be out. Let's add some board members as well.

Reality is that the US is simply the country that kickstarted this horrid scandal and other countries are starting to look at the crimes.
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 124):
And the lawsuits have begun to pour in. I can't imagine how badly this will cost VW in the long run.

Well if it goes by previous class action suits then the legal fees will be about $6B for the lawyers and the car owners will get a $3 off on an oil change coupon.


Apparently VW has set aside €7B for 11M cars that equates to €636 per vehicle. That sounds pretty cheap for the up grade to bring the cars in compliance after leaving the production line.
DEF tank, pump, solenoid, SCR, plumbing, wiring and reprograming. I would question if the existing computer has extra ports for the inputs and outputs that would be required. The real tragedy would be that all the electrical provisions are already in existence on the vehicle and VW chose not to use it.
Obviously there will be some fines on top of that not counting civil suits.

Okie
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:07 am

French automakers have taken a hit on the markets today, someone is expecting they cheated too, I guess. Of course no French car is being sold in the US, and no diesel engine either, I think ? Renault is Renault-Nissan-Dacia-Lada-Samsung-Infiniti, but I don't know if you get diesel Nissan cars.

Quoting DDR (Reply 123):
Glad you agree that U.S. Suburbs are nice. Nice to finally see you say something positive about the U.S. rather than bash it at every opportunity. Jealous much?

Row after row of cookie cutter houses, my dream !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:05 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Technically VW just got caught in a massive, illegal cheat that is international in scope. They have already set aside $7.3 BILLION just to fix the cars. Various fines from all countries (and California) will be on top of that figure. Then you have all the class action attorneys sharpening their knives.

People who bought the cars have been wronged, in the sense they got something different, not something inferior. If I had an affected car I sure wouldn't though.

GM and Takata got a slap on the wrist for killing people so I got no outrage for VW passing a test that shouldn't exist in the first place.

Frankly, I'm encouraged by their commitment to deliver performance.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Bullcrap. Don't try to pas the buck on engineering overruns. The Defense Department laid out what they wanted and the primary contractors did THEIR engineering work and laid out a dollar bid, Per usual there are massive cost overruns and delays and now you are blaming someone in the public who criticizes those engineering companies.

...because it's your fault. People like you are convinced the defense industry is a scam whether it actually is or not. The public and politicians who know very little cry wolf all of the time and as a result the services must drive more risk in terms of technology, schedule and cost into every program just to get it approved with little regard to realism, lest the need go completely unmet.

And it gets worse. Such programs, flawed as they may be, must be protected from people such as yourself which results in potentially useful upgrades and risk mitigation getting deep sixed in the budget.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Typical of an engineer to try to take something very simple and make something complicate in theory.

Aww, look who's denying science that doesn't support his political ideology.

I wouldn't call some basic arithmetic complicated either, but whatever.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 113):
Infrastructure costs money to build and maintain.

Cost is not incurred equally.

Say I drive to the store to buy something. Part of the cost of my purchase goes to paying the fuel tax for the truck that delivered the object to the store. A smelly eco hipster rides his bike to the store and buys the same thing. Like me, SEH has also paid part of the fuel tax for the delivery truck.

The difference is that I also pay fuel tax to drive my car to and from the store (and everywhere else, for that matter) despite the fact that my car does no damage and incurs virtually no cost to the infrastructure. All private motorists incur a minuscule fraction of the cost combined. This is not at all reflected in taxation and as a result motorists are fleeced into, almost literally, paying the freight for everyone.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 122):
Ah. The Lance Armstrong argument. He passed the drug tests. Therefore, he tested clean. Therefore, for the purposes of sport, he was clean.

He undeniably won the races thought. What value you want to put or not put on that or his drug use is your business. Likewise, if you don't like VW, go buy something else.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
How do you measure air pollution ? Right now Los Angeles is more polluted than Paris (yes, there is live data)

Ridiculous and I believe you are smart enough to know better. Why wouldn't you take an average over an extended period? And why only one city? It takes a certain kind of arrogance for any Euro to lecture us again regarding the environment and our driving habits.

The World Health Organization considers fine particulate matter pollution levels higher than 10 micrograms per cubic meter to be unsafe. The majority of American cities are in the safe zone, with the average pollution level at 9.6. Thirty-three percent of cities are above the W.H.O. standard. Those cities tend to be geographically dispersed throughout the United States, but are predictably cities with heavy industry and driving, like Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles and Philadelphia. Outside of the W.H.O., the United States has its own particulate matter standard of 12 micrograms per cubic meter. The pollution in 13 percent of American cities is higher than that.

Europe is a different story. The average European city has pollution levels that are double what the W.H.O. considers safe, at 21.7 micrograms per cubic meter. In total, 93 percent of Europe’s cities have unsafe levels of pollution when measured against the W.H.O.'s standards. The E.U.'s standard, against which member countries base their regulations, is much more lax than both the W.H.O. and the American standards, at 25 micrograms per cubic meter. Only a quarter of the E.U.'s cities fail to meet that standard. In the United States, only Fresno, Calif., would.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/31/up...the-world-a-matter-of-choices.html

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 125):
Another side of this topic... there is the DMCA, the Digital Millenium Copyright Act, which in many instances forbids reverse engineering of software or computer chip sets, because copyrights could be infringed. Some experts say that the DMCA is the very reason VW's cheat was not detected earlier.


This is becoming a bigger issue with Right to Repair. They increasingly lock things up and use the guise of safety as their reason. This precludes anybody repairing the vehicle except authorized dealers. Massachusetts has enabled legislation requiring them to publish much of it and other entities are looking into it.


Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 121):
By the way, VW once got caught because they once advertised one of their cars with the grade G by contrasting it by the even worse grade H - which does not officially exist:

For years here, they compared their best diesels against the outdated gas engine they sold here but nowhere else, the 2.5l, which few consumers knew was best used as a boat anchor. Their behavior in pushing diesel in this country has really been reprehensible, some have recognized it and cried foul, but only now is it truly apparent. I feel quite vindicated.
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128):

Every major producer of "clean" Diesel engines, whether they are selling them in the US or not, are being hit over fears that it will be discovered that they have been doing the same thing that VW was caught doing. There is going to be increased scrutiny on all Diesel engines, worldwide, right now. That is why Renault and I assume PSA Peugeot Citroen took a hit ( presumably, didn't check)

[Edited 2015-09-22 19:01:35]
 
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WarRI1
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:31 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 122):
This is a good healthy community because we all do the best we can. I can't always tell the truth about true info that I know, or what my work is now (not airlines). But I also am not gonna lie. And a lot of times, I got zero clue and people have illuminated a lot of topics, including all over the world. A.net is only what we make of it.

A lot to learn on here, both good and bad. We see the strengths and weakness's of the contributors. You get a feel of the members, by their words, and manners. One cannot know it all, but one can treat others with respect. This is sometimes lacking on here. Yes, it is what we make it.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:05 am

Quoting sebolino (Reply 103):
And the joke about the particle filters should be unveiled too: when it must be "regenerated", it burns the "big" particles into very thin particles which can go out of the filter and are much more dangerous ... Well done !

This is something most people are not aware of and is important!
 
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RayChuang
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:55 am

I think right now because this "cheat" has been found on something like 11 million I-4 TDI engines built by Volkswagen, it's likely the German legal system and the European Commission may go after VW for such a gross violation of emission laws. Both Ferdinand Piech and Martin Winterkorn could be facing jail time in Germany, and the Eruopean Commission could hammer the company with a fine of 10 billion Euros or more.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:39 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 129):
He undeniably won the races thought. What value you want to put or not put on that or his drug use is your business. Likewise, if you don't like VW, go buy something else.

Well - who of the laymen that bought VW cars had the expertise to doubt the official but "wrong" EPA measurements? After all, one could think that EPA officials knew how to test cars and their flatulence.

Do you have the expertise to check all the things you buy, rent or simply use? They could blow up in your face. Even worse than just pollution limits - your life could be in danger.

It all boils down to *what* somebody can justifiably trust on. Abuse of that trust makes VW liable.


David

[Edited 2015-09-22 23:40:21]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
JJJ
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 6:51 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 109):
Believe it or not, your emission standards were not the strictest.

But they are.

Euro 6 was phased in last year, so every diesel sold from late 2014 onwards more than passed CARB LEVIII restrictions.

The second phase of Euro 6 (even more strict) enters play 2017.

Any Euro 6 compliant diesel engine meets the ULEV50 CARB cathegory, and most fall into SULEV30.
 
na
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:54 am

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 134):
I think right now because this "cheat" has been found on something like 11 million I-4 TDI engines built by Volkswagen, it's likely the German legal system and the European Commission may go after VW for such a gross violation of emission laws. Both Ferdinand Piech and Martin Winterkorn could be facing jail time in Germany,

I think you are exaggerating. Jail time, well, if Winterkorn personally ordered it, maybe. But better fine him 50 or 100 million Euros in that case. There will be quite some top brass people at VW who will loose their job these days. No way it wont be found out who was responsible for what at which time, and who covered it up. I expect all technical managers and the leadership of VW of America of the past five years will be sacked, and some at Wolfsburg as well of course.

This is the worst affair that has hit the reputation of the German industry. Unbelievable that such a gross "error" could be made. Stupidity in the first degree. I still cant believe what happened.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 134):
and the Eruopean Commission could hammer the company with a fine of 10 billion Euros or more.

While a hefty fine, 1 or 2 billion, is certainly justified, I doubt anyone would be so stupid to completely strangulate a company with 600.000 employees altogether, of which more than 599.000 are completely blameless. But I hope that the responsible managers are being fined down to their very last shirt.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:16 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 68):
We have Americans here who continually say "but, but the Europeans do it" as if Europeans were all-knowing.

Of course not. But it is quite rich to be lectured by Americans when it comes to anything automotive and environment-related.
 
ltbewr
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 11:46 am

Now the question comes up if all other car makers have also put in 'special' computer controls that assure passage of government testing of pollution systems on cars either to certify to sell them and in follow up in use testing. Already PSA and Renault/Nissan are facing stock drops as well as Daimler-Benz, BMW and really all other car makers, not just as to the pollution levels of their diesel engines but also due to similar suspicion of their pollution control systems in all cars. I hope EC, Japan and USA regulators also look into other cars not just of VAG or

It is often said the cover up is far worse than an initial crime. Here VAG covered up for years a bad real life flaw in thier cars, causing not immediate deaths as with the Toyota brake systems or GM ignition keys/locks issues, but harm to the health of millions. The damage by VAG will affect many from this criminal scandal. Many VAG product dealers will go out of business as sales crater. Likely VAG plants in the USA, Mexico, Brazil and in the EC will likely face reductions in demand and full or partial shutdowns. I suspect cuts in staffing on the managerial and corporate level too due to the huge costs from the That will mean 1000's of job losses with their economic affects.

I do hope the executives of VAG face trials for allowing this and clawbacks of bonues, and if convicted of crimes, long jail terms. This is clearly one of the worst and largest corporate criminal conspiracies we have ever seen. Over 11 million diesel engine vehicles could be non-compliant, just to keep up sales numbers. I suspect this will become a major study for business schools and ethics classes worldwide.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 12:19 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 139):
Over 11 million diesel engine vehicles could be non-compliant, just to keep up sales numbers.

The question I wonder about: Are these 11 million vehicles still street-legal? Or could they be grandfathered in an attempt to protect the car buyers with their honest intentions of buying a clean car?


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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mad99
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:19 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 140):
The question I wonder about: Are these 11 million vehicles still street-legal? Or could they be grandfathered in an attempt to protect the car buyers with their honest intentions of buying a clean car?

If they do have a 'fix' it will come at the cost of something else, performance and or economy for example so i think the buyer will be at a disadvantage when selling. If they just fine VAG and let the cars already sold stay as is maybe people would not mind as much and maybe not lessen the value as much.
 
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sebolino
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:25 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 114):
How do you measure air pollution ? Right now Los Angeles is more polluted than Paris (yes, there is live data) : http://aqicn.org/map/world/

Ah come on, stop that pro-diesel attitude !

Go to NYC and breath. Surprise, no bad smell despite the high number of cars. Many electric or hybrid cars, and the rest is gasoline. A real pleasure.

No need to go to Paris to smell the horror of diesel. In small villages I always have to suffer the pollution of those pieces of shit using gas-oil.
Everybody knows that it's killing us, but no, let's continue happily !
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:10 pm

I'm not defending gasoil, I avoid it when possible. It's pretty much the same stuff airliners use, though.

In a village it's probable that pollution comes from oil furnaces (no pollution control at all) or plain old fireplaces (no pollution control either).

In response to this scandal I hope the EU will accelerate the mandatory equalization of taxes for diesel fuel and gasoline, but I won't hold my breath.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Okie
Topic Author
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 141):
If they do have a 'fix' it will come at the cost of something else, performance and or economy for example so i think the buyer will be at a disadvantage when selling. If they just fine VAG and let the cars already sold stay as is maybe people would not mind as much and maybe not lessen the value as much

The EPA at minimum is going to require the software change to remove the "bypass" and leave the controls on for normal driving. That will for sure effect performance. In the states that require environmental testing then that will have to be done.
The only way to get the performance back is through DEF/SCR which I am in doubt VW would do because of cost. The cars were sold under the previous standards and for all intents and purpose the software change would meet those requirements.



Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 140):
The question I wonder about: Are these 11 million vehicles still street-legal? Or could they be grandfathered in an attempt to protect the car buyers with their honest intentions of buying a clean car?

Environmentalist bought into the "clean diesel" emotional mantra. The diesels were terrible polluters period and purchasers bought into the mantra and did not look at the obvious. There are issues trying to meet the latest standards with DEF and SCR's.

Okie
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:09 pm

Remember NOx are produced because of an extremely lean mixture (latest gen gas engines are also making much more NOx because of this). So it's not performance (power, torque) I would worry about, but economy.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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OA260
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:10 pm

VW CEO fell on his sword !
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:42 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128):
Row after row of cookie cutter houses, my dream !

I would have said the same at one time but over the years, the landscape grows, and (many) become nice neighborhoods.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 136):
Euro 6 was phased in last year, so every diesel sold from late 2014 onwards more than passed CARB LEVIII restrictions.

Yes, they caught up to California standards - except that as you know, we have found a bunch of 2015/2016 European cars that don't. Not to mention that in the intervening years, you allowed yourselves to be poisoned.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 138):
Of course not. But it is quite rich to be lectured by Americans when it comes to anything automotive and environment-related.

It is ironic, isn't it? But all we have to do is look at the skies.
 
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mad99
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 146):
Yes, they caught up to California standards

I don't know man...
I was in California a few months ago and a massive jacked up truck parked next to me and whilst the people got out the driver let it idle and i could smell the un-burnt fuel.



Quoting mham001 (Reply 147):
But all we have to do is look at the skies.

Very true for California i would say. Over the years things have really improved, Source? One can see the mountains now
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:36 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 125):
Art Levin, the VW customer in this report, says the re-sale value of his car is now drastically lowered.

Are the affected VW cars street legal anymore? Can the positive emission test result be retracted?

He's right on the lower resell values, even with VW fixing the cars properly.

While the cars are not street legal right now the government will give owners a break and let them continue driving, just as they are going to demand that VW correct those cars. With 11 million defective cars there is no way that VW can fix everything immediately, but there will also be huge pressures to get moving. Stalling will simply increase the costs - especially in the area of fines.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128):
Row after row of cookie cutter houses, my dream !

Cookie cutter may sound bad, but there are a lot of good points. The prime factor is that you can have consistent plans that the tradesmen can work on far easier than custom homes. That gives buyers more space for the money and that can be important. A quick read on Levittown

Quote:


The majority of the land on which it is built was purchased in 1951. Levitt and Sons only built six models of house in Levittown, all single-family dwellings with lawns: the Levittowner, the Rancher, the Jubilee, the Pennsylvanian, the Colonial and the Country Clubber, with only modest exterior variations. The homes were moderately priced and required only a low down payment. Construction of Levittown began in February 1952, soon after completion of Levittown, New York, located on Long Island. Levittown, Pennsylvania was the second "Levittown" built by William J. Levitt, who is often credited as the creator of the modern American suburb. To speed up construction, Levitt & Sons perfected a 26-step rationalized building method that was essentially an assembly line type of home building. The house remained stationary, while the construction workers moved from house to house. Each worker had one task such as pouring slabs, framing, installing electric sockets or installing washing machines. This highly regimented process enabled Levitt's workers to produce a finished house every 16 minutes. Construction of the homes commenced in 1952 and when completed in 1958, 17,311 homes were built.

What set Levittown apart from other developments at the time was that it was built as a complete community. Levitt & Sons designed neighborhoods with traffic-calming curvilinear roads, in which there were no four-way intersections. Each neighborhood had within its boundaries a site donated by Levitt & Sons for a public elementary school. Locations for churches and other public facilities were set aside on main thoroughfares such as the Levittown Parkway, likewise donated by the builder to religious groups and other organizations. Other amenities included Olympic-sized public pools, parks, "greenbelts", baseball fields and playgrounds, and a shopping center located in neighboring Tullytown borough that was considered large and modern at the time of its construction (and in fact was the largest east of the Mississippi). The first set of four sample homes were put on display in a swatch of land near the future Levittown Shop-a-Rama, and an estimated 30,000 people viewed them in that first weekend.[4]


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levittown,_Pennsylvania

A lot of people are in this type of market because of their finances. Over time the owners change the look of their home with trees, plants, paint, etc. but they are in homes they can afford. That's fine with me.

BTW, just read that the CEO of VW has resigned. One down and a lot to go.
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