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pvjin
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:48 pm

Here in Finland VW has gained some media attention during last few years due to design faults of TSI engines and DSG gearboxes. A lot of them broke apart before even reaching end of the warranty, and if it happened after the warranty had ended VW typically didn't pay any compensation, despite the fact these failures were entirely their fault.

That's one of the reasons why I bought a Toyota instead of VW or Skoda, and I'm happy I did. VW definitely should be forced to pay all the changes required.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 4:53 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...and-luxury-vw-models-10513634.html



The scale of this mess is more astounding every day.
 
diverted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:25 pm

^^

I'm confused how Audi's "acutal emissions" cloud is so much bigger than VW's. Seeing as the affected engine was the 2.0TDI, which is in both. IE, the A3 TDI and Golf TDI are essentially the same car. May be a 1 or 2 mpg difference. Methinks that cloud diagram is a bit of a joke, especially as so far BMW seems to be clear of this mess.
 
ltbewr
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 8:38 pm

I guess VW no longer stands for Volks Wagen, now it means Very Wrong.   

Now one has to wonder if VW will end selling all diesel engined models for the USA/Canadian market for the foreseeable future. That happened before where VW and other car makers withdrew selling diesel models and didn't offer them for years due to issues of making pollution standards in the NA market or in just the California market.
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 9:47 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 153):
Now one has to wonder if VW will end selling all diesel engined models for the USA/Canadian market for the foreseeable future.

VW has cars held on the docks and probably no chance of released for sale in the next 3 to 6 months. Might a well put them back on the boat.

They can fix the illegal cars already sold, or buy them back, but they are so deep in this mess that I cannot see them continuing those products for a long time.

Other diesel cars are also going to come under the hammer as well, with testing probably being more extensive and including on road tests.
 
910A
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:01 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 154):
VW has cars held on the docks and probably no chance of released for sale in the next 3 to 6 months. Might a well put them back on the boat.

My son's diesel Jetta was built in Mexico,

Throughout North America, there are a large number of Volkswagen manufacturing plants, so there is a wide variety of different Volkswagen models currently being manufactured there. North American Volkswagen models include the City Golf, the City Jetta, the CrossFox, the Derby, the Eos, the GLI, the Gol, the GTI, the Jetta MkIV, the Jetta MkV, the Jetta Wagon, the Lubo, the New Beetle, the New Beetle Convertible, the Passat, the Passat Wagon, the Passat CC, the Rabbit, the Routan, the Sportvan, the Tiguan and the Toureg. Not all of these models are produced in all countries in North America, but they are more easily available because shipping is overland.
 
luckyone
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:35 pm

Quoting 910A (Reply 155):

The Golf and Jetta are made in Mexico. The Passat is made in Tennessee, and VW hasn't sold a Passat Wagen here since 2011. The Tiguan and Touareg are (currently) made in Slovakia. The Eos is made in Portugal. The cc that we get is assembled in Germany and isn't offered with a diesel in the US market. Many of the models you listed aren't sold in our market. The Rouaton was a rebadged Chrysler and was built by Chrysler. It is no longer being made.

[Edited 2015-09-23 15:42:31]
 
YokoTsuno
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 12:58 am

Curious what this thread would be like if Volkswagen would have been a Greek brand .
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:47 am

Quoting 910A (Reply 155):
My son's diesel Jetta was built in Mexico,

Mexico might be willing to have them sold in country, which is fine with me.

While I am very pissed at the company for their fraud I understand that basically there were a group of employees committing the fraud. I would not be sad to see those people spend some time in prison.

As for the petrol based cars, I like them enough to recommend the Golf to my daughter 3 years ago and she loves it. Plans to give it to the granddaughter when she gets her license and buy another.

As for your son's car, I hope you can keep us up to date on how VW is woking with him, and what they told him their plans are.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:13 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 17):
If VW gets into real sales trouble maybe I could pick up a 2016 Golf R for half off. That would be awesome.

Let´s make a line here.... i want one too!!!

Quoting Redd (Reply 38):
I have a 1.9TDI and don't experience any of the low power problems you've outlined and it's super efficient.

That 1.9 pump duese is a very torquey and super frugal engine tot bad its quite a stinker.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 77):
I was a fan of VW way back, Winterkorn killed that. Piech was right.

agree 100%

Quoting diverted (Reply 79):
VW did the same thing. The EPA gave them a test. They passed it. If they EPA was concerned about real world driving conditions, maybe cars should be tested for real world driving conditions?

If cars were tested in real world conditions a lot of cars would fail and most big SUVs would be gone, big rigs and diesel transports GONE....

Quoting Polot (Reply 88):
VW can be fined a maximum of $37,500 per a vehicle, and they have sold ~482,000 TDI's from 2009-2015.

that is not going to happen almost 40K per car is more than the value of the cars.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 130):
For years here, they compared their best diesels against the outdated gas engine they sold here but nowhere else, the 2.5l, which few consumers knew was best used as a boat anchor.

I have a 2.5 later and its a tank, its way overbuilt, and very sturdy an also passes México twice a year pollution controls (same as Cali) on crappy 87 octane gas and at 7800 feet above sea level. Its not a nice quiet and powerful engine but it gets the job done ( for performance I have another VW a turbo one)

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 158):
Mexico might be willing to have them sold in country, which is fine with me.

VW sells less than .5 % of its VW as diesels so good luck, and a lot of their models are not available for sale here only gas versions.


This thread is a very good way of seeing how the media put the spotlight on something and a lot of people loose sight of the ball, basically the same as a magician who distracts you and fools you. INHO the Takata airbag scandal is far worse the GM scandal is far worse and a lot of bad things are going on right now, like for example that nerly everything has aspartame on it and its a carcinogen and basically kills you but nobody is giving a rats ass because its better to lambast some Cheaters in Germany than to see the Mayhem big corporations are doing right in your nose...

I bet they are going to make an example of VW while a lot of other big cheater top 100 will be ignored...

TRB
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JJJ
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:39 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 147):
Yes, they caught up to California standards

Above and beyond. Just look up the numbers.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 147):
Yes, they caught up to California standards - except that as you know, we have found a bunch of 2015/2016 European cars that don't.

VW will be hung out to dry on this but they're not the only ones making diesels.

What about BMW, Mercedes, Ford, PSA, Renault, Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, etc. They all make Euro 6 compliant diesels, unless you want to hint there's a grand conspiracy going on (which is understandable if you read the telegraph).

Quoting mham001 (Reply 151):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...and-luxury-vw-models-10513634.html

The scale of this mess is more astounding every day.

If you read the full report, you'll see that it applies to both sides of the pond: tests don't reflect real-world driving conditions. Something that has been tackled already, euro 7 will incorporate WLTC/RDE testing more reflecting of actual driving.

Which, btw happens to both diesel and gas engines.
 
N1120A
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:42 am

Quoting Okie (Thread starter):

So $900M for GM for 100+ deaths from key issues. Toyota $1.2B for sticky throttle. VW (proposed) $18B for polluting.

The GM thing was a joke, and partially due to their bankruptcy. Sticky throttle wasn't a direct result of defrauding the government - a felony.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Ah, I was wondering why VW's diesel engines aren't unreliable rubbish like their petrol engines, perhaps them not being as environmentally friendly and economical as claimed explains it.

What?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Personally I'll make sure to avoid European car manufacturers like plague in the future too. The Japanese do everything better when it comes to reliability.

No they don't.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
For years, only VW was "able" to sell light duty diesel vehicles in the US. Nobody else could figure out how to build to meet US emission standards. Now it turns out, that wasn't even true. NOBODY could figure out how to meet the standards and deliver a worthwhile product at acceptable price.

Actually, VW could have very easily done a urea system, or properly used the NOx chamber.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 14):
Nobody buys diesel cars because diesel is more expensive. It doesn't matter what the MPG says. When people drive past the pumps they all see Diesel is more expensive, therefor the first thing in their mind when they see a diesel car is "I don't want to spend that much on fuel."

Diesel isn't more expensive everywhere.

Quoting Okie (Reply 20):
We have excellent gasoline, often quoted as designer gasoline for every area of the US and season.

No we don't.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
US and Europe calculate it in different ways which makes US fuel look like it has a lower rating but in reality they've got the same rating. US shows the average of the Research Octane Number (RON) and Motor Octane Number (MON) rating, which is the Anti-Knock Index (AKI) while Europe just shows the RON rating which gives a higher number than the MON rating.

...and Europe still has better fuel. 95 RON is the minimum you normally see in Europe. 95 RON = 91-92 AKI. Europe's low grade is the highest grade in the US.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):

Don't get me started... My grandmother, who is now 97 year old and living on the investments left to her by my grandfather (there is now pretty much nothing left - the rest of the family is now paying) lost $50,000 on AAA-rated GM bonds, which the government decreed were suddenly worthless - good only to wipe your butt with. That was pure theft.


Do you know how bankruptcy laws work?
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Dreadnought
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:16 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 161):
Do you know how bankruptcy laws work?

Laws which were circumvented. The UAW, an UNSECURED creditor, was gifted 17% of GM stock while SECURED bondholders like my grandmother got wiped out.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:29 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 160):
What about BMW, Mercedes, Ford, PSA, Renault, Toyota, Hyundai/Kia, etc. They all make Euro 6 compliant diesels, unless you want to hint there's a grand conspiracy going on (which is understandable if you read the telegraph).

I think you can almost guarantee that VW will not be the only company cheatring on emissions, engineers swap companies fairly often in this industry, the parts suppliers are global and used by all, it stands to reason that more companies than just VW are in on this.

http://jalopnik.com/watchdog-group-s...mpanies-are-cheating-on-1732615322

The way I see it as well is if large banks were too big to fail and if Ford and GM were too big to fail VW will not be allowed to fail either, if the Americans try to bankrupt them the German Govt will bail them out.
 
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Tugger
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 104):
I just hope for BMW they didn't use the same software

Well they state they don't do anything of the sort. However:

Quote:
Emissions measured in road tests of 15 new diesel cars were an average of about seven times higher than European limits, according to a study published last October by the International Council on Clean Transportation, the same group whose tipoff led U.S. regulators to investigate a gap between VW diesels’ emissions in tests and on the road.

ICCT also found a gap between real-world and lab performance in BMW’s X3, Germany’s Autobild magazine reported. BMW said that there’s no system in its cars that responds to tests differently than it would operate on the road.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...ens-to-ensnare-bmw-as-probe-widens

And this brings into light the fact or more accurately, the question:

Should the "real world" results match the test results?

Honestly, the real world drivers do not care or follow "correct procedures" when they step on the gas, or do lots of stops and starts, or don't perfectly maintain their car, or whatever. Drivers just use the car as a tool to do what they need to do, and everyone is different to some level. Meanwhile a test, to be valid, must be to a certain standard, with certain steps and requirements, and key test points. And it must be repeatable to produce (near) identical results across multiple tests.

That is not and never will be "the real world".

So I will not be surprised at all if the real world tests show the emission to be higher than the test. Even significantly higher. The test is (and I think properly so, should be) just a tool to compare vehicle against each other and to the tests standards. Then separately you can sample the "real world" and work on improving the test to better correlate the two.

Tugg

[Edited 2015-09-24 08:40:08]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
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Flighty
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:27 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 139):
I do hope the executives of VAG face trials for allowing this and clawbacks of bonues, and if convicted of crimes, long jail terms.

On this I agree.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 139):
This is clearly one of the worst and largest corporate criminal conspiracies we have ever seen.

On this strongly disagree. It is clearly a crime but see RedBaron's comment below.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 159):
This thread is a very good way of seeing how the media put the spotlight on something and a lot of people loose sight of the ball, basically the same as a magician who distracts you and fools you. INHO the Takata airbag scandal is far worse the GM scandal is far worse and a lot of bad things are going on right now, like for example that nerly everything has aspartame on it and its a carcinogen and basically kills you but nobody is giving a rats ass because its better to lambast some Cheaters in Germany than to see the Mayhem big corporations are doing right in your nose...

Agreed! This is a perfect "PR Crisis" which has only a loose connection to a "real crisis." This isn't in the top 100 of corporate crimes. Those all had body counts... HUGE body counts. This has a body count but not a huge one. But it pollutes VW's good name and brand as one of the largest auto manufacturers in the world. In the financial sense, it is a gigantic faux pas and will be hugely expensive.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 143):
I'm not defending gasoil, I avoid it when possible. It's pretty much the same stuff airliners use, though.

Yes but the combustion is different. Jets at temperature have a clean combustion IIRC.
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 160):
Above and beyond. Just look up the numbers.

Source please because several British press reports say otherwise. I found the EU but am having trouble with the CARB numbers.
 
JJJ
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 166):
I found the EU but am having trouble with the CARB numbers.

Because CARB mandates fleet averages, while Euro 6 are absolute maximum figures per vehicle (no matter if it's a small hatchback or a flagship executive car).

To comply with Euro 6 restrictions you must be under ULEV50 (that is, on the lower 50% bracket of fleet-wide emissions), most however do fit on SULEV30 (lower 30% bracket). Euro 7 two years from now will further halve emission requirements.

Here's a good summary (with data from all around the world, not just US and Europe).

http://delphi.com/docs/default-sourc...tandards-pc-ldv-15-16.pdf?sfvrsn=2
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:39 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 166):
Source please because several British press reports say otherwise. I found the EU but am having trouble with the CARB numbers.

Here is all the US numbers with the CARB numbers (the LEV's) http://www3.epa.gov/greenvehicles/documents/420f13022.pdf

Just to note:
LDV= Light-Duty Vehicle max. 8500 lb GVWR
LDT = Light-Duty Truck max. 8500 lb GVWR, max. 6000 lb curb weight and max. 45 ft2 frontal area

Those two groups cover basically every private vehicle.

So while there are 8 bins in the Tier 2 standards (bins 9, 10, 11 and TLEV were just transitional and are no longer allowed), you have to be Tier 2 bin 5 or better to sell nationwide and no automaker is going to make a car that they can't sell in California + 13 other states.

The US will be moving to Tier 3 standards beginning in 2017.

[Edited 2015-09-24 10:40:08]
 
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Tugger
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:50 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 167):
To comply with Euro 6 restrictions you must be under ULEV50 (that is, on the lower 50% bracket of fleet-wide emissions), most however do fit on SULEV30 (lower 30% bracket). Euro 7 two years from now will further halve emission requirements.

But of course that is in the test not in the real world. As we are seeing the real world numbers are not as low as teh test numbers. But then I think that should be expected.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 167):
Because CARB mandates fleet averages, while Euro 6 are absolute maximum figures per vehicle (no matter if it's a small hatchback or a flagship executive car).

It is a little more complicated for that. Individual models are certified to a particular bin, however the average fleet NOx emission has to meet a standard of 0.07 g/mi (which is tier 2 bin 5's standard). So if you sell a bunch of cars with a standard higher than bin 5, then you have to sell a corresponding number of cars with the standard better than that. If a car does not even meet bin 8 it cannot be sold.

Also the EPA's standards apply equally for diesel and gasoline engines, while Euro6 still allows differences between the two. And in some cases the EPA is stricter. For example the US requires 0.07 g/mi NOx fleet wide emission average. Euro6 just requires that diesel engines emit NOx no more than 0.08 g/km which is equal to 0.128 g/mi. Gasoline engines under Euro 6 can only emit up to 0.05 g/km = 0.08 g/mi.

[Edited 2015-09-24 11:08:34]
 
JJJ
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:08 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 169):
But then I think that should be expected.

For both diesel and gas engines. Gaming the test happens all the time.
 
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Tugger
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:18 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 171):
Gaming the test happens all the time.

And sometimes it goes overboard.... as we have seen here! I think VW just wrote a whole new book (at the very least a really big and expensive chapter), on this.  

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:27 pm

I have the misfortune of having a VW Passat on order. No, it's not a TDI - It's a 2015 North American model Passat SE 1.8T, due for delivery when I move to the USA in early November.

I got it with a big discount (about 20% off MSRP), and I know it's an unexciting car, but it's the right one for me. What I'm wondering about though is whether I'm better throwing out my $1000 deposit and buying a different car. My gut tells me that the resale value will be affected by way more than $1000 - I'm intending to keep the car for about 5-6 years. The future viability of VW seems to be seriously in doubt now. Thoughts, anyone?
 
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Revelation
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:29 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 164):
So I will not be surprised at all if the real world tests show the emission to be higher than the test. Even significantly higher. The test is (and I think properly so, should be) just a tool to compare vehicle against each other and to the tests standards. Then separately you can sample the "real world" and work on improving the test to better correlate the two.

Good points all around.

The big issue is that whenever you create some subset of "real world" to be tested, you induce the behavior to do well at the subset rather than the entire "real world". We see this all the time in the school environment. The minute you create a Standard Aptitude Test (SAT) then you create an industry around how to cram for the SATs instead of how to prepare for college in general. Plenty of other examples such as NCLB (No Child Left Behind) standards, "core curriculum" etc.

This is a huge effect. It's always cheaper to address a subset of the real world instead of the entire real world. Once you define a single metric to represent the entire world there's immense pressure to improve that metric at the expense of many many other things. Careers are made or broken based on how well huge corporate or governmental entities do as measured by this metric. It's really hard for individuals or small teams of people to resist the urge to gain advancement by scamming the system. Clearly banging your corporation to the tune of $18B is a career killer, but clearly this is an outlier.

In my mind, the only real way to beat cheating is to change the test (or parameters that define the test) so frequently that the cheaters can't keep up with the newest conditions. The problem with doing this means earlier tests are no longer directly comparable to the new test, so you'd have to retest the older model cars against the newest test, and that gets expensive. Of course the cynic in me says that once the major powerful entities learn how to scam the tests the last thing they want to see is the test get changed, and often times such tests are controlled by these powerful entities.
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:36 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
No, that is unfair. Little granny with her shares in GM can't get that involved in that sort of minutia. and even the bigger shareholders have limited power - sure they can fire the CEO, but what if the guilty parties were lower down and the CEO knew nothing about it?

She also reaped the benefits of decisions she had nothing to do with when the stock was rising. Just because she's a granny doesn't mean she gets to have it both ways.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
The stockholders owe the families of the victims that lost their lives. But the punishment itself should be borne by the people who made the decisions, who should personally pay an appropriate price - including prison.

I think it should be borne both by the stockholders and those who made the decisions.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
Don't get me started... My grandmother, who is now 97 year old and living on the investments left to her by my grandfather (there is now pretty much nothing left - the rest of the family is now paying) lost $50,000 on AAA-rated GM bonds, which the government decreed were suddenly worthless - good only to wipe your butt with. That was pure theft.

I'd argue GM's huge and mounting problems were very clear for several years before it finally went under. That bond should never have been AAA rated, and your grandmother should never have been advised to buy it.

Of course I understand your anger though; I'd be angry too. I've always believed bailing out the auto industry was a horrible decision.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 142):
Go to NYC and breath. Surprise, no bad smell despite the high number of cars.

Having been on the New York subway I'd describe "no bad smell" as a bit of an exaggeration   . But you're right about the cars. It's quite surprising to stand on a busy street and get almost no smell of pollution.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 148):
Very true for California i would say. Over the years things have really improved, Source? One can see the mountains now

Agreed. California air is wonderful compared to most of Europe. For all their faults, it's worth remembering how much better the hippy environmentalists have made all our lives.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
diverted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:12 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 173):
I got it with a big discount (about 20% off MSRP), and I know it's an unexciting car, but it's the right one for me. What I'm wondering about though is whether I'm better throwing out my $1000 deposit and buying a different car. My gut tells me that the resale value will be affected by way more than $1000 - I'm intending to keep the car for about 5-6 years. The future viability of VW seems to be seriously in doubt now. Thoughts, anyone?

People have already forgotten about Toyota's unintended acceleration issue (Which was mainly BS anyways) and GM's doesn't seem to be affecting public opinion much.

I'd say keep the car, especially due to the discount you scored. In 5-6 years no one will remember this. Particularly as you're getting a gas model.
 
Flighty
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 173):
The future viability of VW seems to be seriously in doubt now.

The viability of VW is not in doubt. VW is a hugely rich company. They can easily pay to correct this problem.

Edit: Evidence: VW Groups 2014 profit was approximately US $15 billion+. Their Q2 2015 profit was $4.46 billion. Hugely rich company.

Your Passat sounds like a good car with a good powertrain. You might bargain for a bit more money. If you want.

[Edited 2015-09-24 13:13:45]
 
mt99
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:17 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 177):
The viability of VW is not in doubt. VW is a hugely rich company. They can easily pay to correct this problem.

Paying is the easy part - that not a problem

The problem is getting costumers back.

I bet VW dealers will be very quiet for a while.

Maybe a good time to get a deal

Dramatic as hell article below - but there is no doubt "betrayal" IS real in the consumers mind - and whether it be right or wrong, real or imagined - it is a real issue for VW

In the face of this calculated betrayal, consumers are left with their outrage, their hardship and their questions. How can I be compensated for the loss in my car's value? How can I continue to drive a vehicle that may be 40 times dirtier than I believed it to be? And, most importantly, what action -- what genuine action -- is going to be taken to ensure that Volkswagen is held responsible and that this never happens again?

http://www.cnn.com/2015/09/24/opinio...lado-volkswagen-scandal/index.html

[Edited 2015-09-24 14:35:14]
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Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Fri Sep 25, 2015 1:09 am

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 159):
I bet they are going to make an example of VW while a lot of other big cheater top 100 will be ignored...

A lot of countries are going to make an example of VW and their deliberate cheating. It's going to be painful for VW and they are going to need to work with government officials in all countries involved to move out of this mess.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 159):
VW sells less than .5 % of its VW as diesels so good luck, and a lot of their models are not available for sale here only gas versions.

Prior to being exposed and admitting illegal fraud VW was advertising the hell out of the diesel, as well as other models. While the bulk of VW's sold are not diesel powered the company is going to take a huge hit on their reputation and it is going to take aggressive efforts to regain.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 173):
It's a 2015 North American model Passat SE 1.8T, due for delivery when I move to the USA in early November.

I think you will be fine. VW has the financial strength to clean up it's act by fixing all existing diesels, paying various fines and aggressive marketing. There may be a reduction in resale values, but that is what class action suits are for.

As you said, it's the right one for you so fully enjoy it. In 5 year you should be safe - I doubt that VW, their lawyers or the German Government will want this to drag out very long.

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 173):
The future viability of VW seems to be seriously in doubt now. Thoughts, anyone?

VW will work through this IMO. It is going to be very expensive but the company is very rich - rich enough to work through it in a way that rebuilds confidence in the company.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 159):
f cars were tested in real world conditions a lot of cars would fail and most big SUVs would be gone, big rigs and diesel transports GONE....

Makes natural gas as a more attractive than ever. They can handle large cars and SUVs and there are companies working on big rig conversion. I was told about one company doing research in Australia a few years back. The next question is what to do with the part of crude that went into making diesel.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 165):
This is a perfect "PR Crisis" which has only a loose connection to a "real crisis.

It's only a perfect "PR Crisis" if you own a PR Firm. Otherwise it's a perfect lawyer's wet dream. There is no defense available to VW for their criminal activity. They have been clearly caught, they have admitted their crime, heads are already rolling at VW Headquarters (with more to come) and there is a potential for prison time for some. For VW it is a real crisis and they better get with cleaning up their mess

Quoting Tugger (Reply 172):
And sometimes it goes overboard.... as we have seen here! I think VW just wrote a whole new book (at the very least a really big and expensive chapter), on this.

One of the big sleeping issues isn't just the other auto companies who are hoping they don't get caught, but large companies in other industries who have still to be caught with their cheating who are now looking at how easy it is to get caught and the potential for massive financial damages to their companies as well as themselves.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Fri Sep 25, 2015 2:01 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 179):
One of the big sleeping issues isn't just the other auto companies who are hoping they don't get caught, but large companies in other industries who have still to be caught with their cheating who are now looking at how easy it is to get caught and the potential for massive financial damages to their companies as well as themselves.

And rightly so, it is time to realize the corruption that is the corporate world theses days. Always was, always will be if not crushed. Power corrupts is the saying and I hope we all know the rest.         
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mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Fri Sep 25, 2015 4:36 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 167):
Because CARB mandates fleet averages, while Euro 6 are absolute maximum figures per vehicle (no matter if it's a small hatchback or a flagship executive car).

Seems to be quite a lot of confusion about this because I keep reading this in the media "Max Warburton, automotive expert at analysts Sanford C. Bernstein, says: "The European standards are easier to meet, so there is less need to cheat." http://www.bbc.com/news/business-34340301

And this
The relevant Euro 6 standard for diesel emissions is 0.08g/km (or 0.12g/mi).
The EPA’s current relevant standard (Tier 2, Bin5) is 0.05g/mi (or 0.03g/km).


http://jalopnik.com/german-magazine-...x3-diesel-also-violates-1732767600

California began its inquiry after EC regulators sought to obtain American data on the on-road emissions performance of diesel engines, said Stanley Young, CARB's communications director. The Europeans had a working theory that diesels should run more cleanly in the United States, where regulations are stricter, than in Europe. http://in.reuters.com/article/2015/0...tion-insight-idINKCN0RO2JC20150924

It may be that Euro 6 is tighter on other things, but NOx is the big elephant in the room and it appears, less restricted.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:07 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 181):
It may be that Euro 6 is tighter on other things, but NOx is the big elephant in the room and it appears, less restricted.

Indeed. The NOx was always the big issue for the Diesel, and thus, until Euro 6, the NOx levels for the Diesel were CONSIDERABLY easier to meet than for gasoline cars.

So Diesels were allowed to pollute more than gasoline cars.
 
Marcus
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Fri Sep 25, 2015 9:37 pm

I hope someone does jailtime for this...
Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
 
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RayChuang
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:12 pm

I remember London Mayor Boris Johnson complaining that the diesel exhaust emissions from London taxicabs and doubledecker buses were choking the air the city. I wonder why he didn't order all London taxicabs switched to running on compressed natural gas (CNG) and require all doubledecker buses to comply with Euro 5 exhaust emission standards as soon as possible.

Anyway, we do know that ICCT has noted that most BMW and Mercedes-Benz turbodiesel cars built in the last 6-7 years do comply with Euro 5 and Euro 6 emission rules. And we now know how VW managed to fool everyone on their I-4 TDI engine being in compliance.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:43 pm

Quoting OMP777X (Reply 124):
And the lawsuits have begun to pour in. I can't imagine how badly this will cost VW in the long run.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/ny-ma...al-reason-bought/story?id=33951902

I *JUST* bought a Jetta TDI in May.

I want the full new-car purchase price back because now I have to buy a new car.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 154):
They can fix the illegal cars already sold, or buy them back, but they are so deep in this mess that I cannot see them continuing those products for a long time.

I don't want the fix. The fix will kill performance and fuel economy. I want my car taken back and I want a check big enough to buy a new car.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 182):
So Diesels were allowed to pollute more than gasoline cars.

That will be changing in the future, thanks to VW

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
I *JUST* bought a Jetta TDI in May.

Sorry, but that reminds me of the stand up comic decades ago talking about an Uncle:

"He just bought an Edsel"

"Dealership"

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
I want the full new-car purchase price back because now I have to buy a new car.

You may well be able to swap for a petrol based VW - maybe a slight;y bit larger with solid comfort and good fuel performance - plus get a check from VW for the difference in price as well as an allowance for the taxes you paid.

Best thing is probably to chat with your salesman and ask what is going on at the dealer "before you turn it over to an attorney". Tell him he has time to chat with the dealer before you go legal.

At the same time, be somewhat patient as both the German Headquarters and American subsidiary are going through a mountain of data, costs, options, legal briefs, and other factors of exposure they face. I believe that they will move fast except for indictments that can lead to prison time.
 
ltbewr
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 5:42 pm

Hyundai announced today a recall of up to 470,000 2009 - 2011 Sonata models in the US/Canadian market with the 2.0 or 2.4 L 4 Cyl. engines due to possible engine seizure problems. Those in the recall have engines made in their Alabama, USA plant. Apparently in the manufacturing process in the crankshaft area, the cleaning of debris from the machining of the parts wasn't sufficient and could mean some debris causing excessive wear in a sensitive area of the engine causing 'stalling' as they say - actually seizure and massive failure of the engine and in turn, a huge safety hazard as power brakes and steering would be loss so loss of control on the road. In 2011, the cleaning processes was changed to assure no debris were there.
http://www.nbcnews.com/business/auto...-sonatas-fix-engine-debris-n434146
This is a very serious recall, and Hyundai is offering to replace the engines apparently outside of their factory warranty and extend by several years and miles the original one. Of course, it could lead to declining resale/trade in values, even if the engine is replaced. I would suspect a 'buy back' or breaks on new models may be considered.
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 6:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
I don't want the fix. The fix will kill performance and fuel economy.

Pretty much.

It's not good to get something other than what you thought you were getting but...

...when it comes to the pro-regulation, pro-EPA crowd I have no sympathy. They got what they deserve.

[Edited 2015-09-26 12:36:18]
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 188):
...when it comes to the pro-regulation, pro-EPA crowd I have no sympathy. They're got what they deserve.

Buzz off.

If you sell me something, I expect to get what you told me you were selling me.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 186):
Best thing is probably to chat with your salesman and ask what is going on at the dealer "before you turn it over to an attorney". Tell him he has time to chat with the dealer before you go legal.

Problem is I bought it used. But that doesn't matter. When I bought it, I bought a used VW based on depreciated purchase price. I spent $19K but now I'll have to get something else in the end because I doubt that the California authorities will allow me to continue driving it indefinitely.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 189):
If you sell me something, I expect to get what you told me you were selling me.

They could have done that if the government wasn't over-regulating things.

Every car I've ever bought has crap in it I don't want that saps performance and efficiency. Join the club.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 8:57 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 188):
...when it comes to the pro-regulation, pro-EPA crowd I have no sympathy. They're got what they deserve.

They got what they deserved? What's that? Engineers & programmers (and no telling how many managers & execs) engaged in criminal activity because of their engineering incompetence?

Actually what we need to see is some of those engineers & computer guys spending 3 - 5 in a federal prison.

As for the pro-EPA and Pro-regulation crowd you can put e in that group. I saw the crap in the air in LA as they were just starting to move to minimum standards - which had the auto industry crying in their champaign at the country clubs. You flew over the mountains into that toxic bowl and the land disappeared - covered with a mid brown cloud. They still have problems there, but most engineers are able to keep up with the standards.

BTW, my granddaughter had the middle right lobe of her lung removed when she was 5 so, yes, I tend to be more on the side of people who have trouble breathing. You may prefer "engineering freedom" and profits at any cost, but you don't have kids yet. Maybe that will eventually open your eyes.
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191):
They got what they deserved? What's that?

A bitch slap from reality and the free market. They spent so much time making sure that everyone else gets to pay for features that kill performance and efficiency, it's really only fair that now they get a product that falls short of their expectations.

Without the regulation, VW could have been entirely honest about performance and delivered to customers exactly what they wanted. As it is, government regulations robbed people like Doc of the ability to be a fully informed consumer.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 191):
As for the pro-EPA and Pro-regulation crowd you can put e in that group.

Then go buy whatever kind of car you want. If that's what you value, make your purchases accordingly.

You just have no right to force your values and priorities on others. If these features are so valuable, there is no need for regulation. Regulation of such things is either wasteful and deprives consumers of freedom or it is just unnecessary. Car companies touted the safety and efficiency of their cars when there were no regulations on such things.

The consumer always wins.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
N1120A
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 162):

Laws which were circumvented. The UAW, an UNSECURED creditor, was gifted 17% of GM stock while SECURED bondholders like my grandmother got wiped out.

Wages get preferential treatment. Also, what was the bond secured against?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
B777LRF
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
I want the full new-car purchase price back because now I have to buy a new car.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 189):
Problem is I bought it used. But that doesn't matter. When I bought it, I bought a used VW based on depreciated purchase price.

Doc, you're usually a reasonable person, but in this case you're a bit over the top. Surely you do not expect VW to replace a car you bought used with a brand new one? It's hardly as if your car has stopped working; in fact it works just the same today as it did yesterday. They only 'problem' is, that it's polluting more than it's supposed to, and delivers less than the advertised milage. Then again, they all do the latter, and on the subject of the former, well, unless you live with your nose stuck up the exhaust pipe, there's little to no chance of you noticing.

So, for all intents and purposes the only thing that's a bit damaged is your pride. You might wish to put a price on that, my point of view is more along the lines of 'don't be a flucking child'.

Continue to enjoy driving your VW Doc, it's only the insufferable worshippers of public opinion du jour who might be pointing fingers at you, and their micron-short attention span will soon be captured by the next headline.
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Flighty
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 179):
Otherwise it's a perfect lawyer's wet dream. There is no defense available to VW for their criminal activity.

I guess I just assume we live in a world where multiple companies are designing killer drones, cluster bombs, MIRV warheads. This isn't the worst thing I have ever heard of, that's all. It's naughty. Very naughty. But the main victim here will be VW.

IMO this scandal is a big deal mainly because the auto business is built on brand and resale value. Toyota makes money because used Toyotas go for a lot. So they can offer cheap lease rates. That becomes the foundation of their annual production and revenue.

VW's annual revenue is in the hundreds of billions so it is a major deal.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 185):
The fix will kill performance and fuel economy. I

Hard to say. If it costs you 20% fuel economy, surely a check for $5000 would make you whole. Of course, understandable that you are mad, but they are great vehicles.


Quoting N1120A (Reply 193):

Wages get preferential treatment. Also, what was the bond secured against?

Are you quoting bankruptcy law, or just making something up?
 
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:33 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 192):
You just have no right to force your values and priorities on others. If these features are so valuable, there is no need for regulation.

The pollution of your car affects me as well, and my children, and everybody I know. So unless your car has a pipe leading from the exhaust straight into your lungs, I have a perfect right to force my values on you.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:16 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 192):

What if I drove a car that lets out nuclear waste from its exhaust pipe, would that be okay in your libtard world?
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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OA260
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:24 pm

http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/12006149_10207679665767959_4015449275466581672_n_zpswwgnozyl.jpg
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:27 pm

Ken777 I agree on what you wrote, but what will happen if lets say they discover that most diesels if not all d not met regulations? what if they ban them, also what about big SUV, Rigs and such that emit gazzilion of pollutants?

While I think VW cheated and should be punished, the reality is that they were caught and they are just a speck in all the big companies that are deceiving us all the time, big pharma, food industries, services, electronics, recycling etc etc....

I really hope this scandal opens people eyes to other big CHEATERS in todays world.

TRB
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