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zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:42 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 215):
How about this: I'll sell you my part of the atmosphere. I'll just figure out how much it costs to get back the lost power and efficiency, plus the cost and maintenance of equipment to achieve your standards. Send a check for that amount and I wouldn't mind having a catalytic converter, urea injection or whatever else. I'll pay for the performance that matters to me, you pay for the performance that matters to you.

I don't wish to buy your part of the atmosphere- I don't need or want it. I just don't want you to involve yourself in my part of the atmosphere. Again, you are free to pollute your part as much as you like, as long as it only affects you. Once you find a way to pollute only your part, you can go nuts. Until then, you'll have to act like a grown up and learn to consider human beings other than yourself.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 218):
It's sad that there are people who still believe this.

Because it's true. The idea of "natural rights" has been discredited for over a century.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 232):
This is false, because we live in a democracy. Your right to pollute is spelled out quite clearly for you by the democratically elected regime.

This.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 236):
Actually the world is run by corporations that do not give a rats ass about you...

We grant that power to those corporations. We can pretend we're powerless and that corporations are our overlords, but in reality we make a choice not to do anything about them except vaguely criticize them now and then.
 
luckyone
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 249):
VW Jetta 1.4T

Is the 1.4L available yet?
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 250):
Because it's true. The idea of "natural rights" has been discredited for over a century.

Indeed. The law determines what rights I have, even if I may (and I do) think that I should have some rights that the law currently doesn't give me.

I do quite agree with this quote from Martin Luther King Jr:

"One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws.

For example if alcohol was illegal in Finland I certainly would do my best to disobey such a ridiculous law. Similarly I won't really judge people for using illegal drugs, as long as they don't cause harm to anybody else than themselves. Polluting the atmosphere on the other hand causes common harm, and thus I don't think anybody should have the right to pollute more than what is seen reasonable by the law.
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:54 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 239):
It is true - VW has cheated.

Actually they intentionally broke the law at a sufficient level for prison terms to be handed out.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 239):
However, the NoX issue was difficult to get sorted out. The technology is expensive.

It may be expensive, but the costs they now face are going to be far higher. Their first drop in that bucket was only $4+ Billion - half the profits for the quarter. They are facing a lot more than $4 Billion when all costs are paid.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
What you're really against is anyone thinking for themselves

When their thinking for themselves is centered around criminal activity then, yes, I'm against that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
It's all about personal priorities.

And for someone with major breathing issues that personal priority is to be able to breathe. We're not talking rocket science here so you should be able to understand that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
, you're no different than religious fundamentalists

        

Now that's funny.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
It's all about everyone living according to your standards.

Nope, community standards that addresses the issues of pollution and its impact on health.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
You mean normal according to your standards.

Nope. Community, state and federal standards.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
Just stay out of everyone else's business.

We did that for generations and look at the level of pollution we had. Rivers where you were advised to NOT eat the fish you caught. Air so bad that people would be advised to stay inside their homes. That is the land of libertarians.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
I do have asthma.

Must be mild or you would be vigorously against companies polluting the air. Ever been resuscitated?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
I'd have no interest in emissions data since it wouldn't sway my decision.

That asthma just be REALLY mild.
 
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Tugger
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:56 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 247):
Did you miss the bit where I just dropped NINETEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS four months ago?
[...]

I need a car that does better than 40mpg on the highway

I just got a brand new Mazda3 for $17k out the door. Rated 30/41 for mileage, and while the 3 is probably a bit smaller than what you appear to want, as other have noted the Mazda 6 might be a good option for you.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 249):
The VW dealer will cut you a screaming deal for a Jetta with a gas motor. Just act pissed off, you see to have that part down already

And honestly this might be a great option, get the dealer to "buy back" you car via a great trade in value (which in light of things they should more willing than normal to do), and get a good gas version. At worst it will get you out of the problems your current car is having and allow you to then re-figure what you are going to do at a later time free of these issues.

Tugg
 
na
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 240):
German prosecutors commence fraud investigation against Martin Winterkorn.

They better do!
Even if he knew "nothing", he was responsible for the inner-company climate leading to the most extreme case of fraud in German history. Even if he knew "nothing", he was responsible for a severe lack of control in his company. A deficiency which, in clear words, is gross negligence and incompetence at the highest possible level.

Seems Volkswagen itself is behind the investigation. Even if Winterkorn knew "nothing", what he was responsible for should be sufficient to sue him until the day of his death - unless some surprising facts pop up and that the was cheated by his own technicians, something which I find pretty unlikely at the moment. But 7 days ago I couldnt believe the scope of the scandal so I am prepared for all kinds of surprises.
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:22 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 233):
Europe is concerned about greenhouse gasses, mainly CO2 emission. Therefore diesel has been promoted since it reduces CO2 emission roughly 20%. 33% better millage, but 13% more carbon in each gallon.

And completely overlooks Secondary Organic Aerosols, which diesel is 7x more efficient at producing than gas, so that picture is not clear at this time. Also, VW fuel mileage figures within the same model, with similar power, show ~20% mileage improvement. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....d=33819&id=33927&id=34167&id=35355

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 233):
Therefore the Euro 6 norm is different for gas and diesel. The USA only has one relevant norm for cars, EPA Tier 2 Bin 5, which is similar to Euro 6 for gas engines.

Actually, diesel does not have the same standards in the US, they are still getting a pass. There is Tier 2 Bin 2, but it is rather convoluted. But as an example, the 2014 Jetta diesel was the dirtiest power train within that model.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 233):
While the EU diesel norm allows 0.075 gram per mile more NOx than EPA, then diesel power on for instance a Jetta automatically saves 35-40 grams CO2 per mile. That's 500 times more CO2 saving than the added NOx "cost".

Amount of grams emitted does not necessarily correlate to damage done.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 234):
So the other high-efficiency alternatives for me are hybrids, which have horrible maintenance bills

You were asked this in your car-buy thread and iirc, the only "maintenance" you cited was the cost of the battery, that had never actually failed. Maybe my memory is wrong, exactly what "horrible maintenance costs" are you referring as it seems taxi companies around the world disagree. And what of VW's well-known maintenance issues?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 235):
Hybrid is great for downtown stop-start traffic. You are driving 100 miles/day, you told us. On a not too crowded freeway a hybrid is more like just hauling along extra weight of battery and electric motor(s). No diesel-efficiency involved, unless you invent a diesel-hybrid.

And yet, even with all those batteries and whatnot, hybrids still get better highway miles. http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find....d=33819&id=33927&id=34167&id=35355

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 239):
I still think that a Diesel-Hybrid would be a great design, combining the best of the Prius and the VW Diesel technology.

Most hybrids use an Atkinson cycle engine, which is basically the same and has nearly the same efficiency rating as the diesel cycle but with less power, which the electric motor compliments nicely. A diesel powered hybrid would simply be heavier, costlier and of course, dirtier.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 245):
Then now my clutch died and the car has 15K miles on it. So I took it to the dealer and they are telling me it's non-warranty and it's $3,700 plus my replacement rental to check to see if a warrantied component failed and I have to assume that risk.

Oh please, stop the whining. You made the informed, public decision to buy a brand well known as a POS, ranking right up there every year with the likes of Chrysler and Fiat in consumer reliability surveys. But of course, clutch problems are generally not covered under warranty, they are wear items. Any idiot can kill a clutch in a few thousand miles, learn to drive it.

You also ignored the overwhelming evidence of the known health and environmental problems with diesel exhaust, already under scrutiny in Europe, evidence presented to you in your thread. For a highly-educated doctor to choose a known killer just shows lack of common sense. The best car for you was probably the new Volt, but most likely, too American for you and not nearly as trendy. AND, a very important bonus in our area, it came with an HOV sticker, something most SF Bay area commuters would kill for.
 
diverted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 247):
A BMW diesel is an option but I hear that they mark the urea WAY up. So back to a hybrid if VW buys these cars back?

I've heard this too. Apparently a workaround I've heard from a friend is to just go buy Urea at the VW/Audi dealer. Apparently they price it much less than BMW/Mercedes (Or at least they used to)
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:33 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 249):
The VW dealer will cut you a screaming deal for a Jetta with a gas motor. Just act pissed off, you see to have that part down already  

It isn't really an act, is it?  
Quoting pvjin (Reply 252):
For example if alcohol was illegal in Finland

                             

Quoting luckyone (Reply 248):
Nope, sure didn't. I also didn't miss the fact that the chances of you getting all that back...much less any time soon, are about the same as me winning the lottery tomorrow

Then I'm stuck paying the loan on a non-driveable car that is sitting at the dealer's collecting dust while now financing a new vehicle. Now, when I bought the car, I dropped $10K and financed the rest because 1) My employer had made an error and wound up owing me $20K, which they promptly agreed to cough up but there was a two week delay between finding the error and getting the money and 2) my husband needs to improve his credit score. So I still owe about $9k on that car. We're going to pay that down over two years and then pay the balance off. That should bump his score up a bit.

Still, I'm not going to just take a $19k loss. No friggin' way.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 254):
get the dealer to "buy back" you car via a great trade in value (which in light of things they should more willing than normal to do)

Currently VW dealers are not accepting TDIs for trade-in. The official trade-in value is $0.000, which is less than scrap. Remember, the dealer is not VW. They now have TDIs on property that they can't sell and they certainly aren't going to buy mine so that they now have another car on property that they can't sell.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:34 pm

Quoting na (Reply 255):
They better do!
Even if he knew "nothing", he was responsible for the inner-company climate leading to the most extreme case of fraud in German history. Even if he knew "nothing", he was responsible for a severe lack of control in his company. A deficiency which, in clear words, is gross negligence and incompetence at the highest possible level.

Seems Volkswagen itself is behind the investigation. Even if Winterkorn knew "nothing", what he was responsible for should be sufficient to sue him until the day of his death - unless some surprising facts pop up and that the was cheated by his own technicians, something which I find pretty unlikely at the moment. But 7 days ago I couldnt believe the scope of the scandal so I am prepared for all kinds of surprises.

I suspect that, like with many companies today, the beancounters set unreachable profit targets and told the engineering departments to meet them, no matter what, and that they don't want to hear about the details or problems, just have the financial targets met.

Jan
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 5:37 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 246):
Is that imperial or US gallons?

US

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 247):
Did you miss the bit where I just dropped NINETEEN THOUSAND DOLLARS four months ago?

Doc you're cheap, you're a doc earning well over 200k USD, you indicated this some time ago, so you probably earn far north of that today, 19K is nothing, it's a cheap car, a daily beater. Spend some money buy something decent and stop complaining. Or you could move closer to where you work and not spend hours commuting, that's far better for the environment, if that's your concern.

To be honest I could care less about this issue, as I said before i'm far more invested in this than you are, my car cost 5 of yours, do you think i'm worried, no i'll just drive it more than 3 years, if they want to fix it I'll decline.
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:11 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 257):

Pretty sure you can buy it at Walmart. Not that a trendy TDI owner would ever be seen at Walmart...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 259):
I suspect that, like with many companies today, the beancounters set unreachable profit targets and told the engineering departments to meet them, no matter what, and that they don't want to hear about the details or problems, just have the financial targets met.

The problem with that scenario is that VW profit margins are very low comparatively. Sales was the big target. WInkerhorn was behind VW's desire to rule the world and very publicly set his sights on being #1, no matter what. Many believe it was this ambition that trumped all else and put them where they are today.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 260):
19K is nothing,

Prove it. Paypal it to me.
 
ltbewr
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:33 pm

You can probably buy DEF (uera) from Walmart or local auto parts stores for less than any dealers. Apparently VW was trying to limit hassles and additional costs from customers having to buy DEF with the diesels. Of course, that has backfired big time.
 
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 258):
Still, I'm not going to just take a $19k loss. No friggin' way.

Do you actually know what the performance and economy loss is going to be yet? Or is it a complete unknown?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 256):
Any idiot can kill a clutch in a few thousand miles, learn to drive it.

I think he's just bought it, so the bad driving was probably the previous owner.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 256):
You made the informed, public decision to buy a brand well known as a POS, ranking right up there every year with the likes of Chrysler and Fiat in consumer reliability surveys.

Well, it's actually lower-mid pack, around the same as Chrysler but far better than Fiat.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 256):
You also ignored the overwhelming evidence of the known health and environmental problems with diesel exhaust,

So you don't think he has any right to complain? It seems to me he has (about the emissions, not the clutch). In all arenas of commerce I can think of, if you are sold something which is not as it is claimed to be by the manufacturer, you have grounds for complaint.
 
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OA412
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:05 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 200):
Regulations are a fact of life. You either provide a product that meets those regulations...or you don't provide a product.

   There's really no such thing as the free market. Everything's regulated, just to different degrees.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 242):
At the end of the day, you're no different than religious fundamentalists trying to turn the Bible into law. It's all about everyone living according to your standards.

Come now. It's your fanatical adherence to the "free market" that most emulates religious fundamentalists, not those seeking adherence to regulations enacted by democratically elected governments.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 262):
Prove it. Paypal it to me.

Seriously. I'd like 19K as well. Please and thanks!
 
na
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Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:08 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 259):
I suspect that, like with many companies today, the beancounters set unreachable profit targets and told the engineering departments to meet them, no matter what, and that they don't want to hear about the details or problems, just have the financial targets met.

Sure it was like that, but be reminded that the top brass of VW are for a good part engineers, so they were in some way or the other involved. I have a long-time close friend in VW higher management and I know of the fantasy targets he sometimes was and still is forced to meet - and he mostly succeeded. You can imagine, though he is neither a technician involved in the fraud nor an accountant that at the moment he is almost working round the clock.
 
mham001
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:10 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 264):
I think he's just bought it, so the bad driving was probably the previous owner.

He said he put 6,000 miles on it. Apparently mostly highway miles.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 264):
Well, it's actually lower-mid pack, around the same as Chrysler but far better than Fiat.

You are right, they moved up a bit to 22 out of 31. Wow, look at how bad Ford is now, mostly over tech interface.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 264):
So you don't think he has any right to complain? It seems to me he has (about the emissions, not the clutch). In all arenas of commerce I can think of, if you are sold something which is not as it is claimed to be by the manufacturer, you have grounds for complaint.

I wondered about VW making the claim that they never had a contract with, nor made claims to secondary owners, unless the dealer sold it used. Trying to fight that in court sure would not win them any future sales though.

As a doctor, I would expect a higher standard for knowledge and adherence to health issues, just as we expect a higher standard for police officers in criminal activity. They should know better. What part of "major European cities banning diesel cars for health reasons" is not a clear indicator? But I wonder how many smoking doctors sued Big Tobacco for a habit they knew was unhealthy?
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:17 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 235):
No diesel-efficiency involved, unless you invent a diesel-hybrid.
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 239):
I still think that a Diesel-Hybrid would be a great design, combining the best of the Prius and the VW Diesel technology.

The diesel hybrid has been invented, by PSA (Peugeot Citroen DS). It's a dud, I think they're even abandoning it after a few years. The diesel engine is too heavy, so while city performance is better, it's not better enough to compensate for the loss in highway conditions.

Admittedly they only made a 200+ hp powertrain, installed on big cars, including the presidential DS5 : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_HYbrid4

I was just driving behind a city bus, a Mercedes Citaro BluTec, that's a diesel hybrid. Made the usual black cloud when accelerating...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 247):
A BMW diesel is an option but I hear that they mark the urea WAY up. So back to a hybrid if VW buys these cars back?

Urea is very cheap, I would be more concerned with the maintenance and durability of the system (unknown unknowns).
 
diverted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:42 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 258):
Then I'm stuck paying the loan on a non-driveable car that is sitting at the dealer's collecting dust while now financing a new vehicle. Now, when I bought the car, I dropped $10K and financed the rest because 1) My employer had made an error and wound up owing me $20K, which they promptly agreed to cough up but there was a two week delay between finding the error and getting the money and 2) my husband needs to improve his credit score. So I still owe about $9k on that car. We're going to pay that down over two years and then pay the balance off. That should bump his score up a bit.

Still, I'm not going to just take a $19k loss. No friggin' way.

If I were you'd I'd ride it out. People have short memories. Drive the car another two years, and then flip it. In terms of the clutch, I'd be pissed, depending on what's wrong with it. If the friction plate is worn from abuse, you're probably SOL as a result of an idiot prior owner. However, if the clutch was that beat, you should have noticed when you test drove the car. It doesn't sound like it's your first manual either, so I'm inclined to think you wouldn't burn up a clutch in 4 months. Talk to the service manager, explain the situation. Heck, maybe get him to sit in the passenger seat of another TDI manual and take him for a drive, to show him it isn't your first time using a clutch.

If there ends up being a software fix for the cars that causes power loss, you can hop on the class action and get some money back that way. At this point in time it's too soon to make a rash decision to ditch a car just because it's a TDI.
 
luckyone
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:58 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 267):
As a doctor, I would expect a higher standard for knowledge and adherence to health issues, just as we expect a higher standard for police officers in criminal activity.

Dr. Ben Carson is living, walking, talking proof that one does not need any semblance of sense outside of one's field to become a doctor. Those of us who are doctors can name a lot of people like that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 258):
Then I'm stuck paying the loan on a non-driveable car that is sitting at the dealer's collecting dust while now financing a new vehicle. Now, when I bought the car, I dropped $10K and financed the rest because 1) My employer had made an error and wound up owing me $20K, which they promptly agreed to cough up but there was a two week delay between finding the error and getting the money and 2) my husband needs to improve his credit score. So I still owe about $9k on that car. We're going to pay that down over two years and then pay the balance off. That should bump his score up a bit.

Still, I'm not going to just take a $19k loss. No friggin' way.

Indeed you're in an unenviable spot. Though, if it were me, knowing it was coming I would've waited until I had cash in hand to purchase the vehicle, thus allowing you to have more flexibility when dealing with the car should you choose to divest it. And certainly your experience will come to mind should I find myself in such a position in the future.

[Edited 2015-09-28 13:01:52]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:22 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 256):
Any idiot can kill a clutch in a few thousand miles, learn to drive it.

I've known how to drive a stickshift since I was 17. I've put 9,000 miles on this car. Most of them are highway in which the clutch was fully engaged. I did not kill this clutch. This clutch likely has a hydraulic or cable failure and for them to ask me to authorize $3,700 in repairs for such a symptom is wildly inappropriate.
 
Ken777
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:32 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 245):
Then now my clutch died and the car has 15K miles on it. So I took it to the dealer and they are telling me it's non-warranty and it's $3,700 plus my replacement rental to check to see if a warrantied component failed and I have to assume that risk.

Go to another dealer for a second opinion. It sounds like the one you went to may have been playing games. Google is great for getting dealers in a 100 mile radius and mobile phones avoid long distance calls.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 249):
The VW dealer will cut you a screaming deal for a Jetta with a gas motor. Just act pissed off, you see to have that part down already

But can he take a diesel in on trade?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 250):
Again, you are free to pollute your part as much as you like, as long as it only affects you.

That means he would have to stay inside his house. Or does he still live with his parents?

Quoting na (Reply 255):
Even if he knew "nothing", he was responsible for a severe lack of control in his company.

At least he got a $70+ million golden hand shake, which will pick up most of his legal fees and fines. The moment he is found guilty VW may be free to reclaim that a handshake  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 258):
Still, I'm not going to just take a $19k loss. No friggin' way.

You don't need to. It is going to take time for the smoke to clear, but you will end up having that car "upgraded to clean" and can make a but/sell decision based on that.

It does take patience, but then women have to wait 9 months to see their babies so humans are capable of waiting.

I would call around to different dealers as well as private mechanics. Those privately owned shops care about half what a dealer will and they install the same part, Look for ones that specialize in VW's or "German Cars", get the clutch fixes and wait out the storm.

On the positive side this will give you and hubby an opportunity to go looking at cars at the next car show or two. Spend a full day looking at cars together, sit in them and get bags of handouts.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 259):
I suspect that, like with many companies today, the beancounters set unreachable profit targets and told the engineering departments to meet them, no matter what, and that they don't want to hear about the details or problems, just have the financial targets met.

There are going to be some really powerful bean counters and engineers who are going to get pulled into this mess because they are part of the problem. Look for some major changes at VW when the bums are out the door,

Quoting mham001 (Reply 267):
I wondered about VW making the claim that they never had a contract with, nor made claims to secondary owners, unless the dealer sold it used. Trying to fight that in court sure would not win them any future sales though.

That is going to face a hard time when VW tell it to the Justice Department. California will also have departments that can handle that situation. The threat of banning all VW diesel cars from the state will get VWs attention. So basically some bean counter had a $200 lunch with a lawyer and they worked out a plan to "save the company money". Both will be hiding under a rock when government investigators come calling.
 
diverted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:33 pm

I've been so out of the VW game lately, but I'll try and help...If the car has a hydraulic clutch, first thing, check your master cylinder. It'll be on the firewall. If it's low, that's a place to check. If it's a cable, you should know pretty much instantly if it's snapped.

When you press the clutch in, do you get anything at all? Does it drag (the car moves, slowly) when you put the car in gear with the clutch pressed in?

Are you able to even put the car in gear with the clutch pressed in?

What are the symptoms? One morning you just couldn't get the car into gear? Did it slip under heavy acceleration? Particularly in 4th/5th?

There's no sense in people saying you can't drive stick just by hearing that the dealership says you need a clutch.
 
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 267):
He said he put 6,000 miles on it. Apparently mostly highway miles.

Ah- missed that. Sorry.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 267):
You are right, they moved up a bit to 22 out of 31. Wow, look at how bad Ford is now, mostly over tech interface.

A lot of those surveys just count faults per 100 cars or whatever. Very few include the cost of repair in their rankings. In my experience Ford repairs are a lot cheaper than VW's (I owned both until I sold the Ford a few weeks ago).

Quoting mham001 (Reply 267):
I wondered about VW making the claim that they never had a contract with, nor made claims to secondary owners, unless the dealer sold it used. Trying to fight that in court sure would not win them any future sales though.

I'd say that would increase the PR disaster tenfold. I think they have no choice here but to swallow a very expensive pill.

Quoting diverted (Reply 269):
If I were you'd I'd ride it out. People have short memories.

Agreed. In time I think the value of the car will recover. It's early days.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 274):
What are the symptoms? One morning you just couldn't get the car into gear? Did it slip under heavy acceleration? Particularly in 4th/5th?

1) I was pulling to a stop and I went to put the car in 1st with the clutch in. It would not go until the car was almost stopped.

2) When I went to let the clutch up, it went up a little bit and then stopped. I pumped it several times out of desperation because I was in an intersection and it came up but then it behaved sloppily. Still couldn't get it into 1st unless the car was almost stopped.
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Mon Sep 28, 2015 11:55 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 243):
The majority of people have the opinion that emissions and air quality are something they value.

That's nice, but I'm not one of them. Where's my check?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 250):
I don't wish to buy your part of the atmosphere- I don't need or want it.

Okay then it's none of your business what I or anyone else drives.

I'll pay for things to meet my needs. If you want them to meet your needs as well you can pay for that.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 250):
Again, you are free to pollute your part as much as you like, as long as it only affects you.

You can live as cleanly as you like, as long as it affects only you.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 250):
The idea of "natural rights" has been discredited for over a century.

Natural rights are the foundation on which America was built. If you wish to think of yourself as mere livestock, that is your business.

And before you continue with spewing such garbage, I would encourage you to take a moment to consider the vast injustices and atrocities you are saying that you consider permissible.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 253):
And for someone with major breathing issues that personal priority is to be able to breathe

The go buy a Prius.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 253):
Now that's funny.

...perhaps, but it's also entirely true.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 253):
Nope. Community, state and federal standards.

When the "Community", state, or feds are going to buy me a car then their standards will matter. As long as I'm writing the check, my requirements are the ones that count.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 260):
To be honest I could care less about this issue, as I said before i'm far more invested in this than you are, my car cost 5 of yours, do you think i'm worried, no i'll just drive it more than 3 years, if they want to fix it I'll decline.

Good man. That's precisely the right attitude here.

The lack of perspective is appalling. GM killed people. Takata killed people. VW outsmarted an asinine government test and that's what were supposed to be outraged about.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 262):
Prove it. Paypal it to me.

To be fair, $19k probably doesn't even pay the tax on a car in Scandinavia.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 265):
Come now. It's your fanatical adherence to the "free market" that most emulates religious fundamentalists, not those seeking adherence to regulations enacted by democratically elected governments.

Not at all. The pro-regulation crowd is forcing their values and beliefs on everyone just as religious fundamentalists do. I only want to do what I want to do, I have no need or particular desire for everyone else to emulate me. I'm not saying there should be a law forcing everyone to drive a Suburban or a sports car. I just want unfettered access for myself.

It's really no different than the distinction between freedom of religion and having a state religion.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 277):
Not at all. The pro-regulation crowd is forcing their values and beliefs on everyone just as religious fundamentalists do. I only want to do what I want to do, I have no need or particular desire for everyone else to emulate me. I'm not saying there should be a law forcing everyone to drive a Suburban or a sports car. I just want unfettered access for myself.

I need to figure out where you live and set up huge speakers just off your property line all aimed at your house. After all, it's not YOUR air I'm polluting with sound and if I want to blast your house with mega-bass, you'd just be an evangelical to stop me.
 
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 277):
You can live as cleanly as you like, as long as it affects only you.

And there we have a conflict of interest between our two aims. We resolve the conflict of interest by deciding which right is more important- your right to pollute, or my right not to be polluted. All civilized societies have chosen the latter.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 277):
And before you continue with spewing such garbage, I would encourage you to take a moment to consider the vast injustices and atrocities you are saying that you consider permissible.

Name one such injustice or atrocity.
 
Okie
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:47 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 245):
So I called VW and told them that it's absurd that a clutch failed on a car with 15K miles and that with the car now having zero residual value in spite of the fact that I just dropped $19K on it not four months ago that I expect them to cover this repair.We'll see what happens.

You need to do a little research.
Some of the TDI diesels were equipped with the dual mass flywheel that would fail and the silicone would cause clutch problems.
I would think that would be covered under warranty, at least you would be able to sound like you have some knowledge if VW tries to deny the repair under warranty.
Your mileage indicated is way too early for a clutch issue short of total abuse.
I think I would invest a little time in research for $3,700.

If they deny warranty then you can usually take them to arbitration in most states.


Okie

[Edited 2015-09-28 17:59:50]

[Edited 2015-09-28 18:00:51]
 
diverted
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:12 am

Quote:


2) When I went to let the clutch up, it went up a little bit and then stopped. I pumped it several times out of desperation because I was in an intersection and it came up but then it behaved sloppily. Still couldn't get it into 1st unless the car was almost stopped.

Yeah, something else going on here than the clutch disc itself.

Quoting Okie (Reply 280):
You need to do a little research.
Some of the TDI diesels were equipped with the dual mass flywheel that would fail and the silicone would cause clutch problems.
I would think that would be covered under warranty, at least you would be able to sound like you have some knowledge if VW tries to deny the repair under warranty.
Your mileage indicated is way too early for a clutch issue short of total abuse.
I think I would invest a little time in research for $3,700.

Those are usually accompanied by a rattle at idle and a vibration at speed, doesn't necessarily seem to be the issue, though it's something to discuss with the dealer.

Honestly, it almost sounds like your slave cylinder might be failing. If you stab the pedal and release it really quickly (sorry for the poor terminology) is it any better? Is the pedal softer than normal?
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 277):
I'll pay for things to meet my needs.

Since you are young that's easy to say. Hit a point where medical bills explode and you will rapidly find that it isn't so easy.

We have a friend who has always had "perfect" health until a tumor was discovered. Never thought supplemental insurance was important

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 277):
...perhaps, but it's also entirely true.

as Medicare paid 80%. One day outpatient surgery at $50,000 for the hospital only has helped her wake up. She sort of reminds me of you, but she is more are of things like the environment. Little stuff like that, but still enough of your type to get caught big time. BTW the tumor was a malignancy so now she gets to pay out the nose for chemo.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 277):
As long as I'm writing the check, my requirements are the ones that count.

Since that isn't going to work in the US why not look for some place where you will be happy?
 
Okie
Topic Author
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:26 am

Quoting diverted (Reply 281):
Honestly, it almost sounds like your slave cylinder might be failing. If you stab the pedal and release it really quickly (sorry for the poor terminology) is it any better? Is the pedal softer than normal?

I would hope the stealership would picked up on that straight away.

Quoting diverted (Reply 281):
Those are usually accompanied by a rattle at idle and a vibration at speed, doesn't necessarily seem to be the issue, though it's something to discuss with the dealer.

I believe that pieces of the silicone can get caught between the clutch disc and flywheel and melt in position not letting the clutch totally disengage then slip when the loud pedal is pushed.

Okie
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 279):
And there we have a conflict of interest between our two aims.

No we don't. There's nothing stopping you from recycling or doing whatever eco-friendly things you want to do. You just can't force me to follow along. There's nothing mutually exclusive about them, just like there is nothing about a devout Christian couple being married that prevents the gays down the street from being married or vice-versa.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 279):
Name one such injustice or atrocity

Jim Crow laws. The democratically elected government decided that the black minority did not have certain rights. And by your standards of natural rights being nonexistent and rights being bestowed, or not bestowed, by the government it's all entirely legitimate.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:28 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 276):
1) I was pulling to a stop and I went to put the car in 1st with the clutch in. It would not go until the car was almost stopped. 2) When I went to let the clutch up, it went up a little bit and then stopped. I pumped it several times out of desperation because I was in an intersection and it came up but then it behaved sloppily. Still couldn't get it into 1st unless the car was almost stopped.

It sounds like being identical to an issue I had on my 1998 VW Golf, which I drove until 2010 and 509,000 km. It happened around 400,000 km, and something had broken in the automatic cable adjustment mechanism. A new cable was mounted in minutes rather than hours, and it set me back just over a hundred bucks.

A year earlier - around 360,000 km - I had a gearbox bearing issue, which of course was much more expensive. I told the mechanic to remember to exchange the clutch when he had it disassembled - sure he would.

When I got the bill, then I complained because there was no new clutch on the bill. He said that he had looked at it, but there was no reason to exchange the clutch. He was right.
 
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 2:54 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 283):
Jim Crow laws. The democratically elected government decided that the black minority did not have certain rights. And by your standards of natural rights being nonexistent and rights being bestowed, or not bestowed, by the government it's all entirely legitimate.

I don't think Jim Crow laws permissible. Never have, never will. I personally find them abhorrent, as do most people in society. That's why they no longer exist. How does this prove anything?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 283):
No we don't.

Yes we do. Your right to own a particular car vs. my right to breath air which is as clean as possible. Which of those is not a right? If you said only the first, who are you to make that judgment? I say both of them are.

Or are you arguing they don't conflict? Because obviously they do.
 
Ken777
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 283):
There's nothing stopping you from recycling or doing whatever eco-friendly things you want to do. You just can't force me to follow along.

Of course you can throw your recyclable trash into a landfill, At some point it fills up and money (taxpayer dollars) are used to open up another one, which is normally further away, increasing your trash costs.

Look all you want but there is no free lunch, but you would save YOUR money long term if you break down and recycle

Or are you afraid that your fellow political flakes will consider you a liberal?
 
BMI727
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:04 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 285):
I don't think Jim Crow laws permissible. Never have, never will. I personally find them abhorrent, as do most people in society. That's why they no longer exist.

So your saying that such things have disappeared only because the majority decided it was time that minorities got treated as humans? What if the majority changes their mind? By your standards, that would be entirely fine since it is the will of the majority and no individual has inherent rights.

And what about genocides? The government of the majority decides a minority no longer has a right to life. But since rights are given by the government and the government is the will of the majority that individuals are to submit to, there is no issue, right?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 285):
Your right to own a particular car vs. my right to breath air which is as clean as possible.

You have the right to do whatever you wish to clean the air. You do not have the right to force me to follow along with your beliefs. But again, we could always cut a deal.
 
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zckls04
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:20 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 287):
So your saying that such things have disappeared only because the majority decided it was time that minorities got treated as humans?

History shows that to be broadly true. If an idea has little support amongst a population it has little chance of being enshrined in law.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 287):
What if the majority changes their mind?

I hope they don't. But if you want to find out what happens there are plenty of examples of countries where they have. It isn't pretty.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 287):
By your standards, that would be entirely fine since it is the will of the majority and no individual has inherent rights.

No, as stated before, by my standards it would be absolutely not fine- I would be 100% against it. I don't agree with Jim Crow laws.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 287):
And what about genocides? The government of the majority decides a minority no longer has a right to life. But since rights are given by the government and the government is the will of the majority that individuals are to submit to, there is no issue, right?

What does "there is no issue" mean? Do you mean "would I agree with genocide?" If so, the answer is "no". Or is the answer "do I think that's how laws have evolved to their current form?", in which case the answer is "yes".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 287):
You have the right to do whatever you wish to clean the air. You do not have the right to force me to follow along with your beliefs. But again, we could always cut a deal.

I'm not forcing you to follow along with my beliefs. You can buy any car you wish, just as long as you pay the penalty for dirtying my air.

But I notice you're dodging the more fundamental question- which of those two is not a right? Surely the fact we need to "cut a deal" is indicative of two conflicting interests.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 276):
To be fair, $19k probably doesn't even pay the tax on a car in Scandinavia.

Add another 50% and you've got the tax covered.
 
StuckInCA
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 271):

I owned a VW Jetta once. I traded it in for pennies on the dollar after 5 years and will never consider another VW. That car (a Jetta) required brakes and a clutch within the first year (among MANY other problems). The Subaru I traded it in for: no problems, just scheduled maintenance for 140,000 miles so far.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 4:58 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 256):

Every timeI took that car in, it cost >$200 and it had to be every 5,000 miles even though I do 80-90% highway.
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:21 am

In France "clean diesel" was seen as a result of emissions standards. We're having great fun these days watching the WV/Audi US commercials with white cars, grandma putting her white pullover on the exhaust, etc.

With that said, this will certainly damage diesel cars in the US for years, if not forever (I don't see a bright future for diesel cars anywhere), so I don't think Doc's car will ever recover its value. Now if he gets compensated for that, then that could be OK, fortunately for him it's a relatively inexpensive car, not an Audi A7 or A8 V6/V8 TDI or something like that.
 
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Aesma
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 5:39 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 287):
So your saying that such things have disappeared only because the majority decided it was time that minorities got treated as humans? What if the majority changes their mind? By your standards, that would be entirely fine since it is the will of the majority and no individual has inherent rights.

It's not fine but it can happen and there is nothing much that can be done about it. Look at your great ally Israel.
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:23 pm



No Tax On Rotax
 
Okie
Topic Author
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 3:29 pm

Details about the VW recall are starting to immerge.

VW will remove the drivers seat and steering wheel for those who lost their a$$ and have no where to turn.  Wow!

Okie
 
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DocLightning
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:48 pm

In another stunning example of "how not to do it," several news outlets are reporting that VW will "refit" our cars with "minimal impact on fuel economy and performance."

VW's "vwdieselinfo.com" site has no information.

Meanwhile VW's regional manager missed one promised deadline to get back to me.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 291):
Every timeI took that car in, it cost >$200 and it had to be every 5,000 miles even though I do 80-90% highway.

Did you do any due dilligence at all before buying this car, it's all your own fault. BTW my A6 has only needed 1 service at 30,000 KM, that cost 4300 NOK, 500 USD, the next service is at 60,000 KM, this will be a biggie, other than that all I've had to do is put diesel in one end, new tyres and windscreen washer fluid, I've had no problems, just like the Touran before it and the Golf a few cars before that, all worked fine and were trouble free. I suspect the problem with your VW is with the driving ability of the person behind the wheel.
 
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Polot
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 296):
Meanwhile VW's regional manager missed one promised deadline to get back to me.

To be fair, the regional manager likely has nothing to get back to you with (assuming you are talking about the diesel issues and not the clutch problem). I was at the VW dealership over the weekend getting my car serviced and the head technician was complaining to another person there about how he and the dealership have heard nothing directly from VW themselves, not even an email advising them how to deal with/respond to the inevitable customer complaints/questions (he said the Monday after the news broke he probably got around 500 calls from customers asking about the issue), and recommended calling the VW customer care line and bitching heavily to them.

Not too surprising, VWoA has never been known to be a great company to their dealers, especially when it comes to warranty claims.
 
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OA412
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RE: VW Proposed $18 Billion Fine By EPA

Tue Sep 29, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 297):

He's talking about the Prius he previously owned, not his current VW.
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