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Stealthz
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Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:32 pm

Well the kingdom is at it again...

http://www.news.com.au/world/middle-...rabia/story-fnh81ifq-1227533534610

Participating in an anti Government protest at 17, Sentenced to be crucified AND beheaded, there is an open and tolerant society for you!!
It is time these medieval dictators** were held to account for their actions.

His supporters say he is innocent.. so what if he is guilty. Are these aging despots so threatened that executing anyone that speaks against them is their only action.
Civilised places stopped this practice long time ago.

Did I say dictators? sorry as it is a "kingdom" I meant "kings"
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
It is time these medieval dictators** were held to account for their actions.

I don't support KSA's policies but the West learned in 1973 not to mess with the Saudis. While OPEC has less than half the market share of oil, it only takes an OPEC cut to bring the West down. When the US officially weans itself completely from oil (as in, using oil only for manufacture, not power or transport), then the US should leave the Gulf monarchies to rot if they fall.

In the meantime, the black gold is why we're so buddies with them and why we turn a blind eye.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 12:56 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
I don't support KSA's policies but the West learned in 1973 not to mess with the Saudis. While OPEC has less than half the market share of oil, it only takes an OPEC cut to bring the West down. When the US officially weans itself completely from oil (as in, using oil only for manufacture, not power or transport), then the US should leave the Gulf monarchies to rot if they fall.

The US gets less than 10% of its oil from the Middle East, and that is falling fast as we develop shale tech. Europe and the Far East are the ones most dependent on the Middle East's threats of oil embargos.
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Stealthz
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:12 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
it only takes an OPEC cut to bring the West down

It has been reported that OPEC has so little impact on world oil prices(and supply) they should shut their Vienna offices to save the rent money.
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moo
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The US gets less than 10% of its oil from the Middle East, and that is falling fast as we develop shale tech. Europe and the Far East are the ones most dependent on the Middle East's threats of oil embargos.

According to the US Energy Information Administration, imported oil accounts for 46% of oil refined in the US, and 27% of petroleum consumed in the US.

Of that, 35% was imported from OPEC countries.

http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=727&t=6

Regardless of what the US does and does not import from the middle east oil wise, the US does not exist in isolation - any cut in OPEC production will have a knock on effect on prices from other sources as purchasers switch to them.

Also even if the US imported no oil at all from any source, there would still be effects from commodity and luxury imports from other countries, as prices will go up across the board as transportation costs increase.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
According to the US Energy Information Administration, imported oil accounts for 46% of oil refined in the US, and 27% of petroleum consumed in the US.

Of that, 35% was imported from OPEC countries.

The US uses about 19.8 MM Barrels per day, and imports from the middle east is 1.88 MM. Hence my

[Edited 2015-09-22 06:32:49]
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diverted
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:08 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
According to the US Energy Information Administration, imported oil accounts for 46% of oil refined in the US, and 27% of petroleum consumed in the US.

Of that, 35% was imported from OPEC countries.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The US uses about 19.8 MM Barrels per day, and imports from the middle east is 1.88 MM. Hence my

  
Venezuela, Ecuador, Angola, Algeria, and Nigeria are all not in the Mideast. So it can be entirely true that 35% of oil refined in the US can be imported and not from the middle east. The other 11% probably comes from Canada and other non-OPEC countries.
 
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moo
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:25 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
The US uses about 19.8 MM Barrels per day, and imports from the middle east is 1.88 MM. Hence my
Quoting diverted (Reply 6):
Venezuela, Ecuador, Angola, Algeria, and Nigeria are all not in the Mideast.

But they are part of OPEC, which is largely controlled by the middle east states - so limiting the threat to just middle east countries is meaningless...

And that's ignoring the other knock on effects I mention in my post.
 
diverted
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 2:40 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 7):
But they are part of OPEC, which is largely controlled by the middle east states - so limiting the threat to just middle east countries is meaningless...

I'm well aware they're part of OPEC. Hence why the math works re: where the US imports its oil from. And sure, they may be "controlled" by the middle east, but do I really care that Venezuela is "controlled" by the Saudis? Venezuela has more pressing concerns, mainly ensuring that their economy doesn't implode further.

I think we're reaching a time where Saudi influence isn't what it used to be. Perhaps why they've been aggressively trying to spread their Wahhabism so much more. They know their era of having the western world by the you know whats is coming to a slow end.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
Participating in an anti Government protest at 17, Sentenced to be crucified AND beheaded, there is an open and tolerant society for you!!
It is time these medieval dictators** were held to account for their actions.

Eventually they will be held accountable. The Saudi's are in rather untenable position going forward. They offer from one hand social funds based off of oil profits, and then with the other hand they demand unquestioned loyalty from the populace. As oil goes lower I expect less funds going out, and less loyalty coming in. Eventually the balance will tip out of the favor of the Saudi royals. This could take decades though as oil and technology do a dance in terms of finding market balances.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
The US gets less than 10% of its oil from the Middle East, and that is falling fast as we develop shale tech. Europe and the Far East are the ones most dependent on the Middle East's threats of oil embargos.

We are still vulnerable to the market shocks that would occur, but in the current environment , OPEC can't cut oil production and NOT lose market share in the short haul to other market producers. This is why oil currently goes lower and OPEC and other countries do not try to cut production.
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seb146
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:33 pm

Barbaric and horrific. That being said, they are their own nation with their own laws and rules. What has been said in other countries about state sponsored hangings and lethal injections in this country? The West is outraged when people in other countries are executed by firing squad or hanging but do not bat an eye when it is done here. In fact, it seems to be just the opposite: How dare they do that there but fry the bastard here.
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dfwjim1
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:42 pm

A little off topic but I read in a history book that during Roman times execution by beheading was reserved for Roman citizens
only as it was the most humane and quickest way to execute a human being in those times.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 4:56 pm

As long as this happens in KSA I see any criticism towards likes of Assad from nations allied / in close relations with KSA as extremely hypocritical. If you are to act as a defender of freedom and human rights you are supposed to equally condemn all regimes that break against these things, not just some of them.

Hopefully things will change when oil starts to get replaced by renewables. In the meantime KSA is definitely one of the greatest threats to world peace, spread of Wahhabism/Salafism in rest of the world is largely due to Saudi oil dollars that are used to spread that cult. Of course we do have other equally bad but smaller players like Qatar too.
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fr8mech
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:01 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):

Barbaric and horrific. That being said, they are their own nation with their own laws and rules. What has been said in other countries about state sponsored hangings and lethal injections in this country? The West is outraged when people in other countries are executed by firing squad or hanging but do not bat an eye when it is done here. In fact, it seems to be just the opposite: How dare they do that there but fry the bastard here.

We are in agreement here. Their country, their laws, their 'criminal' justice system. It does not mean we aren't allowed to be outraged by it. It does not mean we can't speak out about it.

Here, capital punishment is reserved for the worse of the worst, and we agonize over making execution as quick and clean as possible. In that part of the world, it is reserved for those that challenge the sitting government/monarch or those that blaspheme against the religion of peace, and they appear to dredge up some tried and true methods of ending a life, while sending a message.
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diverted
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 5:30 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
As long as this happens in KSA I see any criticism towards likes of Assad from nations allied / in close relations with KSA as extremely hypocritical. If you are to act as a defender of freedom and human rights you are supposed to equally condemn all regimes that break against these things, not just some of them.

This hits the nail on the head. To ANYBODY that said "oh we had to get rid of Saddam because freedom/democracy," great, what about everywhere else? Why not go invade everywhere where they don't have democracy and freedom.

It's a line spewed to make everyone feel better about going in and killing innocent women and children, and hundreds of soldiers who signed up to protect their country, not unilaterally project power wherever their feel like dropping bombs this week.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 22, 2015 11:53 pm

Quoting diverted (Reply 14):
Why not go invade everywhere where they don't have democracy and freedom.

Because not every nation/case is the same.

Some require diplomacy, some isolation, some covert war, some open warfare...and some a combination of all four or other tactics.

To simply lump all situations into one basket, demanding one response, is simplistic...and dangerous.

We, the civilized world, really do need to take a harder line on The Kingdom, and others of the same sort, but given the current political/economic/energy situation, they have us over the proverbial barrel.
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solarflyer22
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Wed Sep 23, 2015 2:32 am

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
Participating in an anti Government protest at 17, Sentenced to be crucified AND beheaded, there is an open and tolerant society for you!

Guys your article and discussion missed a HUGE point. This kid, is Shiite, and that's why they are going even more extreme than usual. Real tragedy and almost ISIS like.

If this happened in Iran, this would be front page new in the West and Al Jazeera. That double standard is why the US has really no business getting involved in Iran human rights (not that they are great). Just totally hypocritical.
 
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Wed Sep 23, 2015 3:01 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 16):
is Shiite

Why dosent use the term Shia? this one this almost like how they proouce shit in movies at time where they go shee-at, maybe Shia community needs to correct this.
 
N1120A
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 8:58 am

Sadly typical of our "great ally." I say we make the Saudis and Israelis live under one government, taking away Israel's nukes in the process.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):

I don't support KSA's policies but the West learned in 1973 not to mess with the Saudis. While OPEC has less than half the market share of oil, it only takes an OPEC cut to bring the West down. When the US officially weans itself completely from oil (as in, using oil only for manufacture, not power or transport), then the US should leave the Gulf monarchies to rot if they fall.

All the US has to do to weaken OPEC is drop the sanctions against Iran and allow Iran to flood the market against OPEC's wishes.

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
According to the US Energy Information Administration, imported oil accounts for 46% of oil refined in the US, and 27% of petroleum consumed in the US.

The US imports very little from the Middle East.

Quoting 777way (Reply 17):
Why dosent use the term Shia?

It is an Anglicization. Shiite would describe a person who is a follower of the Shi'a denomination of Islam. The term Shi'a is semi-awkward to use as an adjective in English, though it is more and more common.
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 9:21 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Here, capital punishment is reserved for the worse of the worst,

Or the possibly innocent: http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...tudy-4-percent-defendants-innocent
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777way
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:17 pm

But you dont call Sunni's as Sunnite.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 17):
Why dosent use the term Shia

Shia is usually plural english. And Yes I know you could use Shiites as well.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:18 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Barbaric and horrific. That being said, they are their own nation with their own laws and rules. What has been said in other countries about state sponsored hangings and lethal injections in this country? The West is outraged when people in other countries are executed by firing squad or hanging but do not bat an eye when it is done here. In fact, it seems to be just the opposite: How dare they do that there but fry the bastard here.

Be assured that the electric chair and lethal injections are also considered barbaric by "the West", ok not your West.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 22):
Be assured that the electric chair and lethal injections are also considered barbaric by "the West", ok not your West.

Don't generalize, I'm an EU citizen and I highly believe some people do deserve death sentence and electric chair / lethal injections are valid ways of delivering such a sentence. A lot of other ordinary people agree.

As long as those dying are mass murderers, serial killers and such instead of apostates or political dissidents I have no problem with it.
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 3:32 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 20):

But you dont call Sunni's as Sunnite

If English is your native tongue, it is simply easier to say Sunni's and "Shi-ites". To us it just rolls off the tongue easier. This kind of thing happens in all languages.
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Stealthz
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 4:51 pm

This is about a child being executed for speaking his mind.
Can't believe how many people just bring it down to barrels of oil
I know there are people executed in the USA and other places , US executions are normally conducted after many legal processes and are for capital crimes.
When was the last time someone in a "civilised' country was crucified and beheaded for protesting against the government.
The Saudi royal family are an obscenity that has no place in a civilised world.
Here in Australia there are several people being tried and facing jail time after a protest about a film that "mocked the prophet".. the crimes they are on trial for are assaults and violence committed NOT for speaking their mind.

That is how it should be .. not a bunch of fearful old men executing anyone that disagrees with them...
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diverted
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 5:04 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 25):
The Saudi royal family are an obscenity that has no place in a civilised world.

They may not, but look at the king's funeral last year. A tooooon of "civilised world" leaders showed up. I wonder why
 
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Thu Sep 24, 2015 6:27 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
Some require diplomacy, some isolation, some covert war, some open warfare...and some a combination of all four or other tactics.

Quite a lot of them don't get any of those thing. They actually get your money, your support, your assets, etc.

Heck, some of them even make it to power thanks to your government
 
kaitak
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:45 am

This is appalling and unacceptable. If he had actually committed something that could be deemed a crime, one could understand the need for a punishment (though nothing as drastic as this and certainly not involving execution), but what has he done to warrant such an unimaginably brutal and unpleasant punishment?

He expressed his views about the society in which he lived and the way it should be governed.

This warrants being beheaded and his body being displayed in public ... in the 21st century (ok, the 15th century, in Islam, but still ...)

I am glad that the new leader of the British Labour party has raised the issue. Really, the only thing that seems to work is for the outside world to make it clear to the Saudis that they should really attempt some pretence of civilisation.
 
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:35 am

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
Participating in an anti Government protest at 17, Sentenced to be crucified AND beheaded, there is an open and tolerant society for you!!
It is time these medieval dictators** were held to account for their actions.

It seems that KSA is receiving Karma with the accidents in Mecca.
Unfortunately, those responsible for these horrible actions are always protected.

Their time will come sooner or later.
The horrible Al Saud family dictatorship will not last forever.

Need to watch that those more horrible than them - i.e. Wahhabi will not take their place.

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MD11Engineer
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:55 am

Quoting stealthz (Reply 25):
This is about a child being executed for speaking his mind.
Can't believe how many people just bring it down to barrels of oil

It is actually about barrels of oil and the Saud family's control over them. The boy is related to a prominent Shia Imam, who also got sentenced to death. The Eastern part of Saudi Arabia, where the oil and gas fields are located, has a Shia majority, to whom these two belong.
The Sauds used to be a tribe of the central Arabian Peninsula, around the town of Riyadh (which was made capital by them). The Sauds united themselves during the 18th century with the founder of Wahabism.

After WW1, when the Ottoman empire broke up, King Feisal of the Hashemite tribe from the Western part of the Arabian Peninsula, who fought the Turks together with the British, was promised to become ruler of all the Arab provinces of the former Ottoman Empire by the British Foreign Office, with Damascus, one of the old centres of Islamic scholary as capital. Feisal was respected, as his family were direct decendants of Mohammed, the Prophet, and they also used to be the guardians of the holy sites in Mecca and Medina. Their main city Djeddah also used, as a port city, to be quite cosmopolitan. The Hashemites also subscribed to a much more moderate version of Islam than the Sauds.

But after WW1 the French insisted on getting part of the spoils of the Ottoman empire as well, even though they had never fought it. Other factions of the Foreign Office gave them Syria and Lebanon as colonies, and the French rejected the idea of a pan-Arabic kingdom (actually the King of Jordan is a descendant of Feisal and a Hashemite).

So Feisal was discredited at home and Ibn Saud used the opportunity to attack Feisal's followers and to conquer the whole Arabic peninsula as property of his family. In the 1930s oil was discovered there, and the Americans (the british were not interested, as they controlled the oil of Iran back then and didn't trust Saud) made a deal with the House of Saud to support them in return for the oil, so the family became stinking rich.

But the Sauds know that if the Shi'ite provinces would break off, taking the oil with them , they'll be broke and they wouldn't be able anymore to buy support from the other tribal leaders.

These executions are probably meant as a deterrent: Don't even think of rebelling against the House of Saud.

If the British government would have kept it's word in the 1920s, we would probably have a completely different Middle East today. E.g. Feisal got along well with the European Jewish settlers and saw them as experts necessary to modernise his kingdom and to teach the locals new technologies.

Jan

[Edited 2015-09-26 04:58:18]
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DocLightning
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 1:45 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Barbaric and horrific. That being said, they are their own nation with their own laws and rules

So we should have just left Nazi Germany alone to slaughter millions? After all, they were their own nation with their own laws.

That's the logical extension of what you are saying.

Crucifixion in the 21st century?

Saudis funneling money to terrorist groups in vast quantities?

What are we to do?
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MaverickM11
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:50 pm

This seems like another ringing endorsement for the Iran deal. Is anyone really worse than the Saudis?
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pvjin
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
This seems like another ringing endorsement for the Iran deal. Is anyone really worse than the Saudis?

North Korea is and perhaps ISIS if you count them as a state, otherwise definitely not.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:04 pm

The late Saudi King Abdullah was a reformer, though a slow one, as he could not afford to anger the very traditionalist tribal leaders, who want to keep their feudal powers,and could have toppled him, but his successor is, from what I have heard, very conservative and a hardliner, which can be seen in the increase of the rate of executions, e.g. for political offences.

Jan
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777way
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sat Sep 26, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 30):
E.g. Feisal got along well with the European Jewish settlers and saw them as experts necessary to modernise his kingdom and to teach the locals new technologies.

European jews setled in Arabia as nationals, well glad thats over.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sun Sep 27, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
So we should have just left Nazi Germany alone to slaughter millions? After all, they were their own nation with their own laws.

Except that no one invaded Nazi Germany to put an end to the atrocities, did they? The Allies invaded Nazi Germany to stop their war of conquest. It was then that the level of Germany's crimes began to come to light.

And, while I have no historical context to back this up, I suspect that if Nazi Germany were able to maintain the pogrom without encroaching on their neighbors' territory, the first steps would have been to try and sway them through diplomatic pressure, then in concert with covert military action and only open warfare if other actions did not compel the Germans.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
What are we to do?

The way to end this is to make The Kingdom, in fact, the entire region, powerless to exert influence on the rest of the world. Then, if the civilized world chooses to do so, it can bring what pressure it wants to try and change the attitude. Until then, the political decision is to do business with the devil and swallow our moral outrage.

Pretty crappy decision tree, if you ask me.
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Flighty
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:38 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
What are we to do?

We put them in power. We can take them out of power at any time. We can appoint Mitt Romney as King next week, if we want to.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:44 pm

Completely disgusting, but what can we expect from Saudi Arabia?

Relating to the crucifixion of Ali Mohammed Baqir al-Nimr, Saudi Arabia has had an issue with Shia in the Eastern provinces (where most of the oil is) rising up and rebelling. Rebelling against the House of Saud's authority is a more significant crime there than anything against Islam.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
So we should have just left Nazi Germany alone to slaughter millions? After all, they were their own nation with their own laws.

Exactly. This is the whole point of international law.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 32):
Is anyone really worse than the Saudis?

Only the DPRK. But the DPRK and its leader are treated (by the international community) like the tyrants they are. Meanwhile no prolific international leaders are ever willing to call out the Saudis for the awful goings on in their country. The Bush family is very close to the House of Saud (especially Bush senior, who has a role in managing the royal family's investments) and has never shown any intention of reining them in. Plenty of photos of Dubya and Abdullah kissing if you google it. Obama is no better, bowing down deeply on the first visit after his election. Britain has been very close to Saudi since the Al-Yamamah, noone in Number 10 will openly criticise them with the attorney general even submitting to political pressure and closing a case investigating fraud in defence dealings with Saudi. The last occupant of the Elysee to have any balls when it came to dealing with Saudi Arabia was Chirac, but even so, pressures to secure defence deals led him to speak at the Saudi Parliament in 2006, which I was very dissapointed in. This year, a public beach in the South Of France was closed by Saudi officials due to the King being in residence at his holiday home nearby. President Hollande showed very little leadership on the issue.

Even my local MP (the foreign minister) has no tact whatsoever when it comes to Saudi Arabia, despite our limited trade with the country. In an effort to put a free trade agreement with us on the Saudi agenda, he spent millions of (taxpayer) dollars bribing an influential local (for those wishing to laugh at NZ stereotypes, yes, the bribe did involve giving him nearly 1,000 sheep among other things) and refuses to make any kind of criticism of their human rights abuses.

When the Saudis poured troops into Bahrain, slaughtering protesters to stop an uprising, all the leaders above were notably silent.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyeC-5qXtt0

Unfortunately, as far as Saudi Arabia goes, business dealings cause human rights issues to fall on deaf ears as far as world leaders are concerned.  
Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
North Korea is and perhaps ISIS if you count them as a state, otherwise definitely not.

ISIS is (to an extent) a tool of the Saudi monarchy, to keep ultra religious young Saudis fighting jihad in other countries and not against the ruling monarchy (which ISIS would love to crush if they could and replace with a caliphate/theocracy). Historically, they've done the same in Iraq, Chechnya, Afghanistan.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 34):
The late Saudi King Abdullah was a reformer, though a slow one, as he could not afford to anger the very traditionalist tribal leaders, who want to keep their feudal powers,and could have toppled him, but his successor is, from what I have heard, very conservative and a hardliner, which can be seen in the increase of the rate of executions, e.g. for political offences.

  

A more detailed explanation of this is here:

Quote:

First, we must go back to December 1979, a pivotal month year in modern Islam.
At the end of 1979, Islamists seized the Grand Mosque in Mecca, during the hajj, when millions around the world came for pilgrimage. Hundreds of pilgrims were taken hostage - hundreds died and the ringleaders were beheaded.
That same December, Ayatollah Khomeini officially became the 1st Supreme Leader of Iran. In doing so, his revolution had successfully created a Shia theocracy in Iran, a rival of the Arabs and in particular Saudi Arabia.
Also in December of 1979, the Soviet Union, an atheist state, invaded Afghanistan, an Islamic state.
Why do all of these tie in together?
For one, the Saudi royal family sees themselves as the caretakers of Mecca and Medina - a sort of royal protector of Islam like an Islamic Vatican State. In Iran in 1979, however, there was a new rival in both culture (Arabs vs Persian), religious sect (Sunni vs Shia), and now in government (monarchy vs theocracy). Note that many hardline Islamists do not believe that monarchies can exist in strict Islam - as thus, the Saudi royal family was nothing more than a western, imperialist creation that was ultimately un-Islamic. Furthermore, the agreement they've had with the US for protection (established by FDR during WW2 actually, after he met with the founder of Saudi Arabia, in exchange for logistics bases for the war) was seen as a mortal sin - dealing with an infidel country.
The Saudi family feared that Iran would become a model for the commoners to rise up. The Saudi populace is very conservative and while the Saudi royal family has been famous for its debauchery and westernized living (especially abroad), for the most part the population had been quiet. The Seizure of the Grand Mosque, however, sent a shockwave through the Saudi family - they were not immune. They feared they too would be toppled by an Iranian-style revolution by those who deemed them not Islamic-enough.
As thus, the Saudis embarked on appeasing the hardliner clerics with more strict laws, a tougher moral police, etc. Prior to all this, Saudi Arabia didn't have such strict laws as requiring women to be covered in public, foreign females could drive legally, etc. In exchange, the clerics continued the agreement to legitimize the Saudi family.
Furthermore, the Soviet invasion was an unexpected boon - the Saudi government encouraged young Islamist-leaning males to go fight in holy jihad against the atheist commies and defend Islam in Afghanistan. Also, many Saudi citizens donated money to establish mosques in Pakistan and Afghanistan to preach their ideology and send more fighters against the Soviets. All of this was welcomed by the Saudi government -this relieved a lot of the pressure internally as those fighters and money went away from funding fundamentalists internally.
Where did it all go wrong? Well, fast forward to 1991 and the Gulf War. When Saddam invaded Kuwait, Osama bin Laden - through his family connections - petitioned the Saudi king to let him and his hardened fighters in Afghanistan come and fight the Iraqis.
The Saudi King refused - instead, he requested the US and an international coalition come help. The Saudis volunteered their soil for US bases.
To Osama, this was the last straw - the Saudi King let an infidel army establish bases on the holiest soil in Islam. In turn, Osama declared war not just on the US and the west - but also on the Saudi government and its royal family.
This is why all the talk about removing our support from Saudi Arabia, etc. simply isn't going to happen. Yes, most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi citizens - but the Saudi government itself has been under attack by people of those same ideologies. The Saudi government has had to play a balancing act between its western-leaning royal family and the hardliner citizens that make up its population.
This is also why we need the Saudi government to come aboard in cracking down harder on its citizens - after a string of attacks in the 90s and 2000s, they finally came to a realization that they had to do something and it's made a lot of headway in the fight against Islamists.
And that's why Saudi Arabia has supported toppling Gaddafi (because he's a clown) and Assad (because he's an ally of Shia Iran), whether there are Islamist rebels or not -- its radical citizens have a place to go wage jihad away from home -- but also has supported toppling Morsi (because he's a hardline Islamist) and re-establishing the secular rule of the Egyptian military.
http://bit.ly/1Wt46go

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
The way to end this is to make The Kingdom, in fact, the entire region, powerless to exert influence on the rest of the world. Then, if the civilized world chooses to do so, it can bring what pressure it wants to try and change the attitude. Until then, the political decision is to do business with the devil and swallow our moral outrage.

Well, the good news is that Saudi Arabia needs oil prices to be higher than $100 USD to be able to balance their budget. Right now they are bleeding money and will be for the foreseeable future. Saudi Arabia has no economy other than oil (and pilgrims) to support itself. Nearly all people who work in Saudi Arabia are foreign migrants. In the medium term, the country holds significant assets around the world which give them some income. However there isn’t much future to be had. I’m sure that, long term, once the Royal Family sees the writing on the wall and that ‘their’ country is heading towards being a failed state, they will cash up, stash the assets abroad in Switzerland or the City Of London and abandon the sinking ship. You can be sure that the Shia of Qatif, who have over the last fifty years had the oil taken from under them by the dominant tribe of Riyadh (Al Sauds) will see very little of it.

Unfortunately, that sinking ship could quite likely be taken over by an ISIS like force.

Contrast this with the UAE, which has spent much of its income from oil sales building itself a non-oil economy and some of the world's largest Sovereign Wealth Funds (ADIA, ADIC, MDC and ICD). Currently, oil makes up less than 5% of Dubai's GDP.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 36):
Pretty crappy decision tree, if you ask me.

Very.

[Edited 2015-09-28 13:03:55]
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mad99
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:07 am

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
Participating in an anti Government protest at 17

and having a weapon and using violence.

Quoting stealthz (Thread starter):
there is an open and tolerant society for you!!

KSA is not an open and tolerant society. If you are permitted inside and break the rules they will beat you down and/or kill you - welcome to the middle east!

If they do not rule with an iron fist then someone like ISIS will step in and use a proper fist to sort them out.

after all its god's will
 
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
The US imports very little from the Middle East.

That doesn't mean it is immune to price shocks. Oil right now is cheap because Saudi Arabia is pumping away. The minute it decides to cut back, expect that barrel to jump to $60-$80 in a matter of days, regardless of whether it will be brought to the US or sold elsewhere.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Stealthz
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 39):
and having a weapon and using violence.

Which was???

"He was accused by the government of carrying a firearm, attacking security forces and even armed robbery."
There has never been any evidence published that this was true, nor has there been a valid trial proving these crimes.

And only a few weeks before this boy is butchered the despotic criminals of the KSA have been elected by that other travesty, the UN to head their council on Human Rights!

[Edited 2015-09-29 05:09:25]
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zkojq
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:54 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 39):
and having a weapon and using violence.

Or so the authorities say...but hey, I'm sure we can trust them, right?

Quoting stealthz (Reply 41):
"He was accused by the government of carrying a firearm, attacking security forces and even armed robbery."
There has never been any evidence published that this was true, nor has there been a valid trial proving these crimes.

  
First to fly the 787-9
 
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mad99
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:10 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 41):
"He was accused by the government of carrying a firearm, attacking security forces and even armed robbery."
There has never been any evidence published that this was true, nor has there been a valid trial proving these crimes.

IDK he was tried and found guilty. He says he's innocent..not too surprising



Quoting zkojq (Reply 42):
Or so the authorities say...but hey, I'm sure we can trust them, right?

I don't think they would do this for kicks.

harsh justice but its working for now
 
Stealthz
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:17 pm

Quoting mad99 (Reply 43):
IDK he was tried and found guilty

"He was accused by the government of carrying a firearm, attacking security forces and even armed robbery. None of those charges could be proven but he confessed nonetheless. He didn’t have a lawyer and some say the confession was drawn from the teenager via torture."
... and we all know how fair and just a trial might be in that sandbound wasteland!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
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mad99
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RE: Crucifixion & Beheading.. KSA In 21st Cen.

Tue Sep 29, 2015 1:26 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 44):
"He was accused by the government of carrying a firearm, attacking security forces and even armed robbery

And confessed so i guess that's enough for the Saudi's

God's going to make an example out of him

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