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lesfalls
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Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Thu Oct 15, 2015 11:32 pm

There is a petition for Merkel to resign. If you wish you can sign but your thoughts on this?

https://www.change.org/p/wir-fordern-den-rücktritt-der-bundeskanzlerin-dr-a-merkel-und-sofortige-neuwahl-der-bundesregierung-resignation-of-the-german-chancellor-dr-a-merkel-and-immediate-reelection-of-the-german-government?source_location=petitions_share_skip
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:26 am

I can't sign as I am not German. But yes, Merkel has been criminally stupid in her handling of this affair and should have the decency to resign.

Hopefully these events will educate millions of people. Even calling this a "refugee crisis" is dangerously misleading. Did you know that of the refugees of the Yugoslav war 20 years ago and who were taken in by West European countries, only a small number ever returned (somewhere between 10 and 20% returned) and those that remained in Western Europe are still poorly integrated.

As a general rule, it seems that most people fleeing war or even a shitty country, and are called "refugees" never go back (and frankly who can blame them?). Europeans who are calling for taking in these refugees, as well-meaning as they may be, should understand that they need to assume that these millions of people are coming to stay.
 
Airstud
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
and frankly who can blame them

Exactly.

See, you don't. Have. To live like a refugee.

(Don't have to live like a refugEE ee....)
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:49 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 2):
See, you don't. Have. To live like a refugee.

(Don't have to live like a refugEE ee....)

It took me about 30 seconds... ROFLOL
 
Mir
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:53 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
Did you know that of the refugees of the Yugoslav war 20 years ago and who were taken in by West European countries, only a small number ever returned (somewhere between 10 and 20% returned) and those that remained in Western Europe are still poorly integrated.

If they were alone in being poorly integrated, that argument would have more merit. But Europe seems to have issues integrating its immigrants in general, suggesting that there are, at the very least, problems on their part as well as the part of whoever comes in.

As for Merkel, she's kept Germany in very good shape throughout the financial difficulties that the rest of Europe has faced. If people want to ignore that and throw her out over the far more minor issue of some refugees...be careful what you wish for.

-Mir
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:21 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
If they were alone in being poorly integrated, that argument would have more merit. But Europe seems to have issues integrating its immigrants in general, suggesting that there are, at the very least, problems on their part as well as the part of whoever comes in.

Which is a reason to put the brakes on immigration - at least of people who do not speak the language and can fit in easily into the local culture, and have needed skills. You can't just mandate better integration.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
As for Merkel, she's kept Germany in very good shape throughout the financial difficulties that the rest of Europe has faced. If people want to ignore that and throw her out over the far more minor issue of some refugees...be careful what you wish for.

That "minor issue" will undoubtedly have lasting bad repercussions on Germany and Europe in general.
 
Mir
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:40 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
You can't just mandate better integration.

If you don't start addressing the problem you'll never fix it. And it does need fixing, not just for those yet to come but also for those already there. If this is what it takes to get Europe on the path to better immigrant relations, it'll be a net positive in the long run.

The US is quite good at integrating immigrants. It can be done if people want to put their mind to it.

-Mir
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 1:45 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
If you don't start addressing the problem you'll never fix it.

We agree. The problem is too-rapid immigration. Slow it down.
 
Mir
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:05 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The problem is too-rapid immigration. Slow it down.

But that just gives an excuse to not go about reforming the systemic issues that prevent better integration - "it's not urgent, we don't have a lot of people coming". Sometimes you have to just jump in and force people to figure out how to swim. The EU and its people are smart enough to figure it out.

-Mir
 
StarAC17
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:17 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
If they were alone in being poorly integrated, that argument would have more merit. But Europe seems to have issues integrating its immigrants in general, suggesting that there are, at the very least, problems on their part as well as the part of whoever comes in.

Can a European explain why this is a challenge for many European countries?

My theory is that because structural reasons they are not employed in jobs that create enough of a wage to start a life like a local. With 25% unemployment among youth in many European countries it isn't surprising that immigrants face a greater challenge. Adding to that when you admit refugees you might have professionals mixed in to that but you have people whom have no skills mixed in as well.

Or it's simply prejudice against people whom are different in their cultures is more inherent in Europe.


Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Which is a reason to put the brakes on immigration - at least of people who do not speak the language and can fit in easily into the local culture, and have needed skills. You can't just mandate better integration.

I think fitting in may not happen for those whom immigrate as easily but usually their kids don't have a problem and embrace the culture. Developed countries need immigration to sustain stagnant or declining populations but I agree you need to bring in people that are easily going to be productive

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
The US is quite good at integrating immigrants. It can be done if people want to put their mind to it.

Because the US brings in immigrants that are going to be productive to the country pretty much right away.

For those whom think this is because Muslims are simply not willing to interact with others because of their faith I cry foul because when you give opportunity I reckon that they integrate fine. People of all stripes whom have immense difficulity to progress in life tend to not branch out and be social with society as a whole.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
The US is quite good at integrating immigrants. It can be done if people want to put their mind to it.

That's the usual thing we hear from across the pond. Reality is more complicated.

There are different types of immigrants. As an immigrant you choose the country of opportunity.

If you are totally unskilled, but want a comfortable apartment for free, a solid monthly social security payment, free healthcare, free education of your children etc. Do you choose the US of A? Hardly. Because you won't get anything of what you want.

You choose one of the wealthier western European countries instead.

If you are prepared to do a decent job, take care of yourself, and prefer to pay low taxes, then...

The integration part isn't more complicated than that. There are exceptions to this rule of thumb, but they are minorities.

The current crisis is of course European because of geography. In reality it should not be a European issue, but a world issue.

But then Europe certainly also "gets assistance" from the rest of the world, especially the USA.

The USA has promised to take 10,000. Not now, but next year.

10,000 is roughly what is flowing into Greece per day at present. If nothing changes dramatically it will likely be 20,000 per day next year.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:41 am

You might sign as well a Petition that the sun should rise in the west.

It won't stop the current Invasion, the cork is off the bottle and there ain't no Jeanies coming in

In reality, the alternatives to Merkel and the present coalition are by far worse, a nightmare would be a coalition if Social Femocrates, Greens and the Communists. They would invite 10 Million p.a.

And finally, a German Chancellor cannot be voted out of Office by petitions, just by a vote of confidence in the parliament. That's the constitutional way and there is a good reason for that, the experience from the Weimar Republic-
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:56 am

I can't hear this "The Muselmanics are coming, we are all doomed!" anymore.
First, Muslims are a very heterogenous group, with a big variety of sects, which range from fanticaly indoctrinated to practically secular. Then there are many Muslims "in name only".

Then the educational background varies largely.
Back in the 1960s-1970s we hired uneducated country bumpkins from central Anatolia to do our dirty work, and since we expected them (and they themselves as well) to go back home after a few years, we dod nothing to integrate them or their children. The result isa high number of second or third generation unemployed highschool dropouts without work, who tend to be easily radicalised.
Practically all of the Gastarbeiter children I went to school with in the 1970s finished their education, all of them have work and some have reached PhD level, no matter of origin (Spanish, Greek, Italian, Turkish, Lebanese etc.). And none of them is a religious or political extremist.

Today's immigrants from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan are mainly their educated middle class, who don't see a future in their own countries. Two thirds have a university degree, many have been entrepreneurs, who lost their property to local warlords and dictators.

According to my sister, who speaks Arabic and Turkish, and who is working in education in Berlin, the state of Berlin tries not to repeat the mistakes of the 1960s, and will now offer preparatory classes for the new children, so that they will learn enough German to be able to follow regular school and to bring them to the knowledge standard of German school children of their age.
I remember in one elementary school I went to in the late 1970s there was a Lebanese girl sitting in the back. She was a bit older than us, but very bad in school, because she barely spoke German and our elderly class teacher did not care.

Merkel has pointed out that Germany has a border of 3000 km length. the only way to stop people fromcrossing it would be to set up a reverse copy of the old inner cold war German border, with watch towers and mine fields. Frankly, I would not want to live in a Germany (or Europe), where police or military open fire on unarmed civilians.

Another thing: The same people in Merkel's CDU (she represents the centrist wing, her critics the right wing) again refused the introduction of an immigration law, which would allow for controlled immigration, loosely based on rthe Canadian model.
To be clear: We need immigration due to demoscopic reasons, but it has to be controlled.
It also has to be made clear that there exists only one set of laws and this applies to everybody. That in Germany the police is based on this law (and not thieves and muderes in uniform, like in manyof the countries the immigrants come from), and that people who don't like our laws are not welcome.

I noticed that most resistance to Merkel's politics comes from ethnically homogenous regions and countries, in Germany mainly rural regions, smalltowns and the East. Here in the West, especially in bigger cities, were we had immigrants since decades, we are much more relaxed about the issue.

Jan
 
Flighty
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:32 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I noticed that most resistance to Merkel's politics comes from ethnically homogenous regions and countries

Surviving pockets of Germans, then. No matter. They should focus on writing their culture down while they can.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
That in Germany the police is based on this law (and not thieves and muderes in uniform, like in manyof the countries the immigrants come from),

According to whom? Wouldn't it stand to reason that this will change quite rapidly? After all, law abiding policemen are characteristic of a secular, German culture and value system. Shouldn't we begin to understand other value systems? Where policemen behave quite differently?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
Surviving pockets of Germans, then. No matter. They should focus on writing their culture down while they can.

What is Germaness? Beer swilling, inbred uneducated rednecks from the villages and smalltowns, who's only interest is how to pimp their cars or houses (or even farm tractors), the last football (soccer) match of the club they support, when the got shagged last time and how great it was when they last got pissed?

Sorry, I live among such people, work with them, and it drives me mad.

Those Germans, who get celebrated as cultural icons, always had connections abroad, lived in other countries and had friends from other countries.

Germany (and Europe) is not an ethnic theme park for overseas tourists, so that they can gawk at stereotypes orhow their ancestors lived hundred years ago.

With one exception, all my girlfriends and wives have been non-Germans (though one is a dual citizen, but she got born and grew up for many years in the US, and is ethnically German-Chinese).

Jan
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I noticed that most resistance to Merkel's politics comes from ethnically homogenous regions and countries, in Germany mainly rural regions, smalltowns and the East.

And? Should they not have a voice?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Today's immigrants from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan are mainly their educated middle class, who don't see a future in their own countries.

Your own government's (SPD) ministers claim that 20% are illiterate and 90% without proper qualification for German labor market. Just because they are coached (by pro-immigrant "NGOs", i.e. those with vested interests to keep the floodgates open) to tell what the public want to hear doesn't mean it's necessarily true in reality.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:16 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
If you don't start addressing the problem you'll never fix it. And it does need fixing, not just for those yet to come but also for those already there. If this is what it takes to get Europe on the path to better immigrant relations, it'll be a net positive in the long run.

The US is quite good at integrating immigrants. It can be done if people want to put their mind to it.

The US doesn't have same level of social welfare as most EU countries do, and as a result the immigrants going there have to work if they want to gain a decent quality of life. As a result the immigrants / refugees you receive tend to be more motivated to work, and working is one of the most important part of integration process.

Then there's the geography. The cultural differences between an average Mexican & US American are much smaller than between an average Arab & European. The cultural barrier faced by people coming here tends to be larger which creates more challenge. Of course language barriers are one thing too, people in most parts of the world are at least somewhat familiar to English, but not so familiar with many other European languages.

So, what's the solution? First, A) Destroy European welfare systems for everybody B) Deny immigrants from access to same level of social welfare as the one received by native population until they are properly integrated.

I support the option B, but of course all kinds of "human rights" organizations cry racism and segregation when they see that.

Of course that alone wouldn't be enough. We should also be able to kick out the bad apples (such as criminals guilty of a severe crime / multiple smaller ones) more easily. The number of immigrants should also be limited to match the amount of workforce needed, there's absolutely no way we are going to ever employ the number of refugees currently arriving to Europe. No, most of the Syrians / Iraqis / Somalis and such arriving here now will end up living on welfare for years and never integrate. That's absolutely certain.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:45 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
As for Merkel, she's kept Germany in very good shape throughout the financial difficulties that the rest of Europe has faced. If people want to ignore that and throw her out over the far more minor issue of some refugees...be careful what you wish for.

She rode the coattails of her predecessor's reforms, predecessor who was thrown out because of said reforms.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 9):
Can a European explain why this is a challenge for many European countries?

Canada chooses its immigrants, Europe doesn't. As simple as that.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:46 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 9):
Can a European explain why this is a challenge for many European countries?

Canada chooses its immigrants, Europe doesn't. As simple as that.

And in Germany the political parties which protest most against the current influx are those who are blocking a law to regulate immigration, as they have the opinion that immigrants are bad and not necessary. For them only immigrants of German ancestry should come here.
If they say that they want to have Germany's (or Europe's) external borders closed, how do they want to accomplish this?
Having the military open fire at unarmed civvies trying to get in, as Kiwirob suggested ("Kill a few and the others will get the message that they are not welcome")?

Rebuild the Berlin Wall on a bigger scale? Leave the whole burden to the Balkan and Mediterranean countries, as the Dublin treaty proposed?

One reason why there are some many on the way now is that the rich countries did not fullfill their promises to finance refugee camps e.g. in Lebanon or Jordan. The Lebanese authorities are closing many existing camps, leaving the people without aplace to stay.

Merkel (Btw., I have never voted for her and her party, but I respect her more and more as a person), is just realistic. There is NO WAY to stop these people from coming except by carrying out massacres.
The only way is to organise the influx and to filter out those who are clearly abusing the system. In this case I have no problem with dumping them on some remote beach in e.g. Syria or wherever they came from. E.g. criminal Albanian groups, who extort other refugees, people who don't understand that there is only ONE law here, and who ignore it.

As for the criticism from Eastern Europe, it is not that long ago that we absorbed THEIR economical migrants. They still like to dump their "undesirables" (Roma etc.) on other countries.

Jan

[Edited 2015-10-16 09:49:02]
 
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yyz717
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:20 am

These Syrians are not refugees. They were safe in Turkey. They were economic migrants illegally crossing into Europe.

Send them back (to Turkey).
 
na
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RE: Petition (not By Me): Resignation Of Merkel

Sun Oct 18, 2015 11:03 am

While I critizise Merkel for her invitation policy and surrender of the German borders, for me its too early to call for her resignation yet. To some extent I admire her humanity, though strangely never shown to poor Germans. On friday stricter laws passed the German parliament, and I hope those are being enforced quickly and strictly.
The biggest problem of the current crisis is the sheer numbers. Germany can perhaps absorb 1 million a year - once in a decade. But our government and the mainstream press keeps quiet about what to expect next year and there is not too much optimism that it will be significantly less than this year. That would overwhelm us, and I bet Merkel wont politically survive it if more than 500.000 would come in 2016.

What is a refugee? For me its a person who flees his country for whatever serious reason into the NEXT safe country, usually a direct neighbour country, in Syria´s case that is Turkey or Jordania. No way this applies to Syrians arriving in Germany, unless they come by plane. Every help given to Syrians running away from Turkey is goodwill. And Mrs. Merkel grants too much of it.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
Merkel (Btw., I have never voted for her and her party, but I respect her more and more as a person), is just realistic.
I didnt vote for her, too. She was and still is ice cold to poor Germans and a major supporter of the ever increasing the poor get poorer, the rich get richer policy slowly disintegrating our society.

[quote=MD11Engineer,reply=18]There is NO WAY to stop these people from coming except by carrying out massacres.

Not true. A lot of small measures will also do a lot to at least reduce the numbers significantly.
With your way of thinking Germany would be forced to take in 10 million complete foreigners if a desaster of a higher magnitude strikes. NO WAY I would support that.
Above certain numbers refugees are just an invasion tipping the boat. Armed or unarmed doesnt matter. Now is the time to set the measures to prevent that what could happen in the future.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I can't hear this "The Muselmanics are coming, we are all doomed!" anymore.

As the first half sentence is undoubtedly true we have to face the fact that many more people will be living among us which are supporting an inherently undemocratic, women-oppressing, even somewhat fascistic ideology. I cant stand it that this is always being kept under the carpet and that official Germany treats Islam as if it were some harmless religion. It is NOT, you can see it all over the world. About two thirds of Germans think that Islam does not belong to our country.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
She rode the coattails of her predecessor's reforms, predecessor who was thrown out because of said reforms.

That is true.

Just one little story which happened in the past few weeks. For years I am supporting a low income (though only partially depending of state help) migrant family which is here for some years already (mother and kids do hold German passports by now). They have three kids, but only one children room in their small 3 room flat. Since two years they are entitled to get a larger four room flat, and are waiting. Now in the neighbour house one such flat was free. And who got it? A refugee family from Syria with also three kids. No waiting, just like that. Is that fair? NO, these are the stupid things that sow anger.

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