AA7295
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I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Wed Nov 11, 2015 11:13 pm

As I'm getting older and more aware with the world and how it works, I'm finding it more and more difficult to justify eating meat. Having grown up with animals, I sometimes find it hard to justify killing a cow or a chicken for food. I mean who's to say that if my dog shows love, affection and personality, that these other animals can't. And if my dog is entitled to being free and loved, why aren't other animals. I tried being a vegan once and ran into some health issues, mainly fatigue and lethargy. Turns out my blood type requires meat consumption. So I've continued to eat meat.

However, just now I saw this video: https://www.facebook.com/littmobtv/videos/1655847854697845 . I'm horrified. This is barbaric treatment of animals. What happened to them being ethically killed? I thought there were laws about animals must not be able to feel pain when they are killed?

I am really disturbed with this video. What are your thoughts?

[Edited 2015-11-11 15:18:14]
 
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fr8mech
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:03 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
And if my dog is entitled to being free and loved, why aren't other animals.

Your dog is not entitled to that; you choose to give him that.

So, stop eating meat. It is not a binary choice. There are different "spaces" between meat-eater and vegan.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:12 am

I'm hoping that in a few decades time, they'll have in vitro meat or something similar (basically, you grow meat from a sample of cells so you have real meat without harming an animal.) I figure they can tweak the DNA a bit to make the meat more healthy (subtract some bad bits and possibly add some other nutrients) and grow it in such a way that you have quality cuts all the time.

I'm sure the anti-GMO/progress crowd will have a field day with that, but I see that as the future. The whole eating meat/treating dogs better than cows thing kinda bothers me and it's one of the few issues I just "live with" instead of trying to argue out to a logical conclusion. Probably just me being greedy and enjoying meat. I wouldn't be surprised if, a century from now, we look like inhumane savages for killing animals for food. Some of the random things I think about  
 
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Aesma
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:18 am

You can't buy it yet but it has been done :

http://cdn.thedailybeast.com/content/dailybeast/articles/2013/08/07/can-vegetarians-eat-in-vitro-meat-the-debate-rages/jcr:content/image.crop.800.500.jpg/45866863.cached.jpg
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Airstud
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:31 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
However, just now I saw this video: https://www.facebook.com/littmobtv/videos/1655847854697845 . I'm horrified. This is barbaric treatment of animals. What happened to them being ethically killed? I thought there were laws about animals must not be able to feel pain when they are killed?

Didn't click on the video, but have you thought about buying only kosher meats?

Part of the rules of kashrut is that the animals must be treated & sacrificed humanely. That's a big factor in my dietary choices.
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QFA380
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 1:55 am

Honestly the main reason animals are treated so poorly is because we as consumers demand ever cheaper meat.

Plenty of meat eaters want the animals they eat to be treated humanely and thus there is a portion of the industry that is determined to provide that however you do often pay at least double the price. All of these type on conundrums are discussed in the Omnivore's Dilemma, a great read.

I didn't watch the video however you live in Australia. We here are lucky to have among the best raised meat in the world in particularly our beef and lamb, although most chicken is the same factory farmed as other countries.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 1):
Your dog is not entitled to that; you choose to give him that.

Animal rights just like human rights are concepts we've created to feel better about ourselves. They do not inherently exist and they do not exist in nature. Lions do not recognise 'Gazelle Rights'.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:00 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 4):
sacrificed humanely.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't kosher entail the killing of the animal by slitting its throat? I mean it isn't the most painful death (I hear that once you start losing a lot of blood you start to drift out of it) but it's hardly the best way to go...
 
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't kosher entail the killing of the animal by slitting its throat? I mean it isn't the most painful death (I hear that once you start losing a lot of blood you start to drift out of it) but it's hardly the best way to go...

Well the laws were hammered out before modern anesthetics. Maybe there is a more humane way today; if there is, I'd want to buy from meat suppliers who use it - and I'd take a hit on scriptural compliance if I had to.
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WarRI1
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:34 am

Is there not enough worries in life already? We now want to engage in animal rights battles? Humans are denied rights all over the world, why don't we try to improve their rights? There is a food chain in this world we inhabit and fortunately or unfortunately we are on the top of it. If meat was removed from the menu, is there the ability to grow enough grain and vegetables to feed the human race? Can humans survive without having meat and its nutritional values without taking vitamins? There might be in the future, but certainly not in the past or present. I have no such qualms about eating meat, I prefer to worry about the things that affect life for my family and friends and humans in general. There is hunger all over the world without removing a great source of food from many already undernourished people. Meat. Should we remove fish, and seafood in general because they and it have rights?
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photopilot
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:40 am

That is NOT the way animals are killed in either Canada, or to my knowledge in the USA.

However.....

What is shown in that video is clearly slaughter being conducted by the Halal method of butchering.

The Arabic word halal means permissible, and the rules of slaughter are based on Islamic law. The animal has to be alive and healthy, a Muslim has to perform the slaughter in the appropriate ritual manner, and the animal's throat must be cut by a sharp knife severing the carotid artery, jugular vein and windpipe in a single swipe. Blood must be drained out of the carcass.

Kosher slaughter is essentially the exact same type of knife cut across the throat of a fully conscious animal, however there are other restrictions on the internal organs, lungs, etc.

They simply aren't allowed to stun the animal first as is done in normal slaughterhouses. Posting/linking a video such as the OP has done, without any information or providence of the source of the video can often lead to wrong conclusions.
 
redflyer
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:45 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
However, just now I saw this video: https://www.facebook.com/littmobtv/videos/1655847854697845 . I'm horrified. This is barbaric treatment of animals.

That is not the most efficient way to slaughter cattle. You have a very expensive contraption and it takes a while to kill each animal. The worst part is the animal is still alive and conscious when they release it from the barrel. In the West, at least in North America, they herd the beast into a pen and briefly (literally seconds) immobilize its head and then off it with a stun gun. The whole process takes less than 30 seconds from the beast entering the pen until it is carried away. Far more efficient and humane, and far less stress for the animal. You should do a search on YouTube for watching other - better - methods of slaughtering cattle.

In the final analysis, though, if you don't like the process behind the scenes then I would suggest not participating in it by helping to generate the demand. But don't try to make the rest of us do without. There are a lot of things that happen in our food supply chain that we just don't see. If we did most of us might just starve to death. I try not to eat out too often because I know what happens in restaurant kitchens, beyond the customers' sight. But I'm not going to begrudge someone's desire to indulge in the eating-out experience.
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Flighty
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:57 am

OMG videos. Do you honestly think it's humane to eat industrial meat? It's not.

By watching the video, you are making the decision to confront yourself with this fact.

I make a different decision. I like eating meat, so I rely on inspectors to do their job -- precisely so I don't have to. And since I already know the videos show cruelty, I don't need to watch them and make my life worse, thanks. That's one battle I personally can't win, making humans stop eating meat.

But we do eat too much meat in western countries, especially red meat. I hope people will start considering it like a drug to be used in moderation.
 
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
Plenty of meat eaters want the animals they eat to be treated humanely and thus there is a portion of the industry that is determined to provide that however you do often pay at least double the price.

Count me as part of this crowd. I do love eating meat, and I don't even think I could give it up, even for dietary reasons (I'd look for any loophole I could). But at the same time, I don't want to see the animals killed in an abhorrent manner. I will admit that I don't know which method is the most decent way to off the animal where they feel the least amount of pain (there may even be contradicting opinions on it too), but I would advocate for that method whatever it is.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Humans are denied rights all over the world, why don't we try to improve their rights?

Indeed....we have a helluva hard enough time taking care of our own species, which makes it hard to justify investing a lot of resources into helping others. All we can do is treat mother nature right, not over abuse the natural resources within, and let animals live their lives.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
Animal rights just like human rights are concepts we've created to feel better about ourselves. They do not inherently exist and they do not exist in nature. Lions do not recognise 'Gazelle Rights'.

   Granted the humans have a far higher intellectual capacity that any other critter, but a simple "don't be cruel to animals" should suffice.
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fr8mech
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:02 am

Quoting redflyer (Reply 10):
I try not to eat out too often because I know what happens in restaurant kitchens, beyond the customers' sight.

I've been in more kitchens, during business hours than I can count...and I'll tell you right now, I don't think about what's back there when I eat out, especially if I've been in that particular kitchen. FYI, the cleanest kitchens always seemed to be McDonald's and White Castle.


Quoting redflyer (Reply 10):
if you don't like the process behind the scenes then I would suggest not participating in it by helping to generate the demand. But don't try to make the rest of us do without

Yup.

Again, if you're adverse to eating meat, but aren't a fan of Vegan or have some physiological requirement for meat (a rather broad term) there are other options. You can take supplements, you can go directly to a farm/ranch where the rancher controls the product and distribution, you can try some of the specialty places that are "certified-whatever" to ensure that your cow is killed in the most humane way possible, etc.

By the way...I haven't seen the video, due to firewall restrictions here at work, but if it shows ritual slaughter, that is not the way animals are slaughtered in western nations.
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steman
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:48 am

It´s not only a matter of ethic and treating animals in a humane way. It´s also a matter of quality of food and health.
Very often industrial meat is full of antibiotics and other stuff. Animals killed in such fashion have their blood full of toxins caused by the heavy stress they are caused.

I used to eat a lot of meat but, just like the thread starter said, I have started questioning myself about this. I started buying only organic (bio) meat coming from certified production in my region, which treat animals well and provide high quality, chemicals free meat. And I cut the consumption to 1 or 2 times per week.
At the same time I increased consumption of vegetables and reduced processed food to the bare minimum.
It´s more expensive, true, but I feel better, physically and mentally.

I just hate the way the food industry works. It´s all about profit and trying to cheat on consumers with dirty tricks like "all natural, fat free" and other stuff while at the same time putting tons of sugar in everything, and chemicals too.

So there´s a way to improve our own health as well as do something for the animals and the environment, without going fully vegan, if one can´t do that.
 
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 9:59 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Is there not enough worries in life already? We now want to engage in animal rights battles? Humans are denied rights all over the world, why don't we try to improve their rights?

Well, in all fairness "us" in wealthy countries creating such a demand for meat is one of the reasons for high food prices for humans elsewhere.
So, while the connection between the treatment of animals and the situation of humans is not obvious, it is still there.


Best regards
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PanHAM
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:55 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 14):

I just hate the way the food industry works. It´s all about profit and trying to cheat on consumers with dirty tricks like "all natural, fat free" and other stuff while at the same time putting

Have you ever thought how it is possibloe even for small income families to put meat on the table every day? Only mass psoruding makes the Prices possible that Aldi, Lidl & co offer. Every Company must make a Profit, otherwise they go bust. Without profits there would be no Jobs. Without corporate profits People would be much poorer.

OTH mass production is not as ethical as the production of slow Food. It happens to be the annua Martini Goose eating tonight with friends, 2 couples, a goose that has been raised on free range, i good conditions. Not a frozen flying object slaughtered in a mass production factory. However, such good food has it's price.
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OMP777X
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 12:57 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 1):
There are different "spaces" between meat-eater and vegan.

This point is a great one, so I'm going to focus on it as opposed to trying to disprove some claims above that were made by people with very different viewpoints from my own. I'm no longer eating meat, and the only animal product I consume on a somewhat regular basis would be milk chocolate. I'm a HUGE meat lover, but as I've become more educated about the carcinogens present in cooked meats and other negative health aspects presented by eating meat and seafood, I've given it up completely. Its been several months now, and I'm healthier than before and hardly miss it at all anymore.

Maybe last time you gave it a go, you didn't get it quite right as far as nutrition goes? Also, the quality of the meat and dairy substitutes on the market (at least here in the U.S.) has improved immensely in the past 10 years. I'm with you on the whole animal rights side of the topic as well, but the healthier living aspects of a meat free diet in my mind are just as important. I'm now aiming to cut added sugar out of my to try to get into peak condition again before heading back to Ireland to visit my father, who is 60 and likes to boast about how much more defined his six-pack of abs are than mine. I'm not sure I want to concede to him just yet this time, and seeing as I haven't bought the tickets for the trip yet, there is a litype wiggle room for me. Hopefully I can go sooner than later because of my improved diet!

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einsteinboricua
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:27 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 1):
Your dog is not entitled to that; you choose to give him that.

Animal rights just like human rights are concepts we've created to feel better about ourselves. They do not inherently exist and they do not exist in nature. Lions do not recognise 'Gazelle Rights'.

THIS! I'm all for conservation and that's why I do not advocate/support killing just for fun or for luxury. To kill lions for their fur/pelt to me is unnecessary. However, to kill an animal to eat is a natural thing. Lions don't go vegan or think about the harm they cause to a gazelle's family. They eat a gazelle because it's a prey within their area, made out of meat which is what a carnivore eats. The day an animal kills another just for luxury (a lion killing a gazelle to play with its horns) is the day hunting for sport can be viewed favorably, IMO.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
Plenty of meat eaters want the animals they eat to be treated humanely and thus there is a portion of the industry that is determined to provide that however you do often pay at least double the price.

Again, THIS!

Compare the prices of a regular chicken farm's eggs vs those who are of free range, vegetarian/naturally fed, untreated chickens. My local supermarket has the former at about $2/dozen; the latter about almost $4. Whether there are health benefits involved or not remains to be seen, but chicken farmers have to compensate. If there's a demand to treat chickens humanely by letting them roam freely, there's also a cost involved. Chicken often quarrel with each other when out of the cage, prone to hurting themselves or others, be hurt or killed by nature (weather, bug, predator, etc.), among others. Naturally, because this means bigger chances of chicken deaths, the eggs are of limited supplies.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
But we do eat too much meat in western countries, especially red meat. I hope people will start considering it like a drug to be used in moderation.

It's not all bad if combined with a proper diet and exercise. I've switched to a high protein, low carb diet. Red meat is definitely included, but it's not a major part of the diet (I do, however, grill chicken breasts for the week so poultry is the bigger part). Then again, I work out, and try to buy lean cuts (though skirt steak is my weakness and that is a fatty cut) to find a happy medium. However, if Joe Average eats 3 steaks a week and his idea of a workout is going from the driveway to the couch, then that's where everything falls apart.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Have you ever thought how it is possibloe even for small income families to put meat on the table every day?

There's a $1 store where I live that was selling $1 sirloin steak cuts. Needless to say, I would be caught dead before I even buy a cut of meat from a dollar store. When it comes to produce I want nothing but the best. Whole Foods is expensive but there's a Fresh Market which is slightly cheaper. While I do not care for organic or not, at least I know I'm getting quality product.
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Ytraveller
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 2:32 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
Animal rights just like human rights are concepts we've created to feel better about ourselves. They do not inherently exist and they do not exist in nature. Lions do not recognise 'Gazelle Rights'.

That's true. But lions look out for no other species but their own. OTOH humans select which species to like and which to eat, e.g. Dog vs. chicken. The OP was also talking about this.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Humans are denied rights all over the world, why don't we try to improve their rights?

People can focus on more than one issue at a time

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
. If meat was removed from the menu, is there the ability to grow enough grain and vegetables to feed the human race?

Actually, meat for everybody (if they consume as much as we do) would be a bigger problem. Meat, especially cattle, takes up a lot of land and resources. Finding alternates is in our best interests

Read up on how much of the Earth's livable land is used up by agriculture... it's surprisingly high, and that's with a large part of humanity not consuming meat like we do in the West
 
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:37 pm

Quoting ytraveller (Reply 19):
But lions look out for no other species but their own.

Lions give a rats ass about their own species. Like most living things, they care about their genes, and for that matter, their very own genes.

best regards
Thomas
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Alias1024
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 3:52 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
The whole eating meat/treating dogs better than cows thing kinda bothers me and it's one of the few issues I just "live with" instead of trying to argue out to a logical conclusion. Probably just me being greedy and enjoying meat. I wouldn't be surprised if, a century from now, we look like inhumane savages for killing animals for food. Some of the random things I think about

I've thought about it as well, and I think you're right that in a century or two our descendants will be looking at us thinking about what backward savages we must have been, just as we look back and can't believe some of the practices of our ancestors.
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photopilot
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting ytraveller (Reply 19):
OTOH humans select which species to like and which to eat, e.g. Dog vs. chicken.

And also interesting to note is that different human cultures/races consider different meat sources as either acceptable or unacceptable. There are cultures that eat dog meat, just as others eat horse meat. Some don't eat pork while others don't eat beef. And others like myself don't really have those considerations and eat what I choose. It's not about how cute an animal might look, but how good it tastes!!!

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autothrust
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:38 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
As I'm getting older and more aware with the world and how it works, I'm finding it more and more difficult to justify eating meat.

As you do i also have a hard time to justifiy the consumption of meat. I almost am vegetarian.

My bigges issue is, the ludicrous consumption of meat we have. People think meat is a basic food, but it's not!

The production of meat is from end to end not sustainable. We have to change our mind, to think we have to eat one time a day.

In the past meat was something special, at most people ate it once a month.

As people demand meat every day millions of animal have to be sacrificed each day. To manage that ridiculous amount of animals, slaugtherhouse don't have time to kill animals humanely.

The slaughtering is set for efficiency.

Imagine if 7 Billion (soon 8B)people would eat meat every day, this is totally sick.

People have to change, because not only is this ethically bad, but also not sustainable.
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Kiwirob
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):

I am really disturbed with this video. What are your thoughts?

This is not how it's done in a civilised slaughter house in a country like Australia or NZ, the meat you eat would not be killed like this.

With the method used for killing it's pretty obvious it's slaughtered for a certain religious group. This is why religious slaughter of animals should not be allowed.

Quoting Airstud (Reply 4):
Didn't click on the video, but have you thought about buying only kosher meats?

Well it will surprise you because this is how your lot and the other lot who have similar rules kill beasts, it's inhumane in the extreme and should be banned.

This is how and animal should be slaughtered, simple effective and painless.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXCSYA49J0

Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
Maybe there is a more humane way today; if there is, I'd want to buy from meat suppliers who use it - and I'd take a hit on scriptural compliance if I had to.

There is watch my video. Your way is cruel like the OP's video.
 
PhilBy
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 5:44 pm

I used to breed rabbits and currently poultry. I ensure that they have a good, comfortable life and kill those that we eat as humanely as possible. I have no difficulties eating meat.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
I'm hoping that in a few decades time, they'll have in vitro meat or something similar

Good way to make all food animals extinct. Do you really think that we'll (as a species) donate the prime land required to allow natural cow, pig and sheep herds/flocks to exist if it's not for our fiscal benefit?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't kosher entail the killing of the animal by slitting its throat? I mean it isn't the most painful death (I hear that once you start losing a lot of blood you start to drift out of it) but it's hardly the best way to go...

Historical evidence from people who've had their throats slit (a la Sweeney Todd) and survived suggest that they often don't feel a thing.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Can humans survive without having meat and its nutritional values without taking vitamins?

Most european peasants did for centuries when they could only afford meat (apart from the communion) a few times per year.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
The day an animal kills another just for luxury (a lion killing a gazelle to play with its horns) is the day hunting for sport can be viewed favorably, IMO.

Get a cat.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Meat, especially cattle, takes up a lot of land and resources.

Generally arable land use can support 5-10 X the population of meat production.
 
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pu
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 7:32 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Humans are denied rights all over the world, why don't we try to improve their rights?

Agreed.

The real sense of injustice that motivates people here isn't so much 'animal rights' ; instead it's the same motivation that unites tree huggers and socialists and the anti-globalization-movement ... it is meat consumption/production/preferences as a bastion of capitalism and wealthy societies that is the real problem here, for some.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
Well, in all fairness "us" in wealthy countries creating such a demand for meat is one of the reasons for high food prices for humans elsewhere.

Disagree.

We in the wealthy countries have enough food. Those in the poor countries are short of food because they reproduce so amorally without regard for the welfare of their children. It isn't Europe or America's fault a quarter of the world is starving, it's the fault of decisions made in starving countries. Europe and America have a moral obligation to help but we don't seem to be able to convince anyone that birth control is a big step towards solving this problem.....

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 26):
Historical evidence from people who've had their throats slit (a la Sweeney Todd) and survived suggest that they often don't feel a thing.

Animals kill animals without regard to the feelings of their supper. Don't most on this thread see humans as just an evolutionary development from the ape?

Btw, ironically to me, the atheist and animal rights movements are very strongly related....a rejection of traditional morality applied to humans but a creation of new morality applied to animals.





Pu.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 12253
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:01 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 9):
They simply aren't allowed to stun the animal first as is done in normal slaughterhouses.

This practice should end, thankfully some countries are starting to do this.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):

Well, in all fairness "us" in wealthy countries creating such a demand for meat is one of the reasons for high food prices for humans elsewhere.

Yes but Germans consume less meat than Americans

Quoting autothrust (Reply 24):
The production of meat is from end to end not sustainable. We have to change our mind, to think we have to eat one time a day.

It's not sustainable if you eat meat on the scale which Americans eat it, especially beef, Europeans eat less meat.
 
tommy1808
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 8:28 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
We in the wealthy countries have enough food.

We life in a globalism world, the demand for corn to feed cattle drives the prices up everywhere, not just where the cattle or the beefeaters live. It is not the meat by itself, animals can be an excellent converter from human-inediable food sources into high quality fat and protein, but as long people as people want corn fed beef, people are starving because we are having steak, not as a singe reason, but sure as hell as a contributing factor.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
Those in the poor countries are short of food because they reproduce so amorally without regard for the welfare of their children.

They don´t reproduce for fun, they reproduce to have a decent chance to have enough surviving children to take care of them later. Wanting to survive isn´t exactly immoral.
That this isn´t the way to go in the long term has absolutely nothing to do with our live stock competing with them and their children for the same food.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
Don't most on this thread see humans as just an evolutionary development from the ape?

I think that most people on this thread know that the theory of evolution is a theory in the scientific sense, aka it is true. Therefore most people in this thread will understand that humans didn´t develop from the ape. Your statement only makes sense if you haven´t understood the theory.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
Btw, ironically to me, the atheist and animal rights movements are very strongly related...

I fail to see how that is ironic.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
..a rejection of traditional morality

Most atheists are aware the morality, traditional or not, if completely independent from religion, which i assume is what you are getting at. Kant and Hume showed that quite nicely a while back, i am sure that information made its way all the way to Sweden too. If you take all the bullshit, like stoning homosexuals and stuff, out of traditional morality, you end up with a universal morality that is shared by all humans regardless of upbringing, education and religion.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
but a creation of new morality applied to animals.

that is actually consistent to look at it that way, there isn´t much scientific reason to make much of a difference between a pig and a human, and ape and human, a dolphin and a human and so on. If you look at intelligence, an adult pig can give many 3-year old humans a run for their money..... if it is ok to kill and eat a pig, abortion shouldn´t even be up for discussion.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
OMP777X
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 10:59 pm

Giving up meat isn't just good for you and animals (if managed properly), it is essential for our continued survival on this planet. If you are interested in learning more about the effects the meat industry is having on our environment, I suggest you watch Cowspiracy. It is a real eye opener, and I'm not some feeble minded individual who is easily susceptible to the powers of editing and movie magic to skew facts and make things look worse than they are. The whole movie is just straight up facts. It is worth it to learn about how the dietary choices of some in our modern world can eventually derail our whole existence as we know it. Anyway, I've been more happy knowing that I'm not as much of the problem now than I am a part of the solution as far as that all goes now. Here are some of the details of that film:


[Edited 2015-11-12 15:41:51]
"Happy Flighting!"
 
N867DA
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Thu Nov 12, 2015 11:12 pm

I can't eat meat knowing that other animals are capable of showing empathy and forming bonds within their own communities. I struggle justifying dairy and try to pick brands I perceive to be better for animals, but I also resort to this mentality:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 11):
I make a different decision. I like eating meat, so I rely on inspectors to do their job -- precisely so I don't have to. And since I already know the videos show cruelty, I don't need to watch them and make my life worse, thanks. That's one battle I personally can't win, making humans stop eating meat.

...which to me is really the "see no evil, hear no evil, there is no evil" mentality from knowing some very nasty things happened that may make me sad, but if I'm willfully ignorant, then it'll be okay. I'd like to see lab-grown meats take off and replace the killing industry.

It is true that other animals like lions and alligators kill without mercy or compassion. Not all animals go to the moon or write plays. Why can't some animals choose more ethical ways to produce food?
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
rwessel
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 6:08 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
If meat was removed from the menu, is there the ability to grow enough grain and vegetables to feed the human race?

Meat requires a massive increase in grain and other crop production to feed the livestock. Meat is a massively *less* efficient way of feeding people. Now it's true that cattle often eat a fair bit of forage, particularly in their younger days, which is not directly usable as food for humans, but as they're being readied for slaughter, they're switched to a mainly grain diet. And there you're looking at something like 4-8 grain calories going into each calorie of beef produced (if you consider the *total* input to the cattle, it's more like 50:1, but again, much of that is not directly edible by humans, chicken is much better here, more like 4:1).

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 8):
Can humans survive without having meat and its nutritional values without taking vitamins?

Most humans eat very little meat. A strict vegan diet does have a few problematic areas in terms of nutrition, but that's a bit of a straw man. The US diet could loose 90% of it meat with few nutritional problems, be generally healthier, and halve* the required grain production needed to feed the country.

OTOH, I love me a nice hunk of cow!


*The estimates vary, but the grain used to feed livestock in the United States has been described as being adequate to feed 800 million people.
 
QFA380
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:45 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
Well, in all fairness "us" in wealthy countries creating such a demand for meat is one of the reasons for high food prices for humans elsewhere.

I am absolutely certain my consumption of a cow born and raised in Australia using Australian inputs and money has no effect whatsoever on the price that a Ghaianan pays for corn.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 29):
Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
Btw, ironically to me, the atheist and animal rights movements are very strongly related...

I fail to see how that is ironic.

Atheists tend to hold that humans like all other animals are objects made up of mostly carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that is animated by electrons. If you reduce life to that then cruelty and suffering of animals is largely meaningless. Suffering is a change of the distribution of electrons that is elementally equal to the change from happiness.

Hence why it is ironic for someone to hold that avoiding cruelty is important while simultaneously believing cruelty is intrinsically meaningless.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
Europe and America have a moral obligation to help but we don't seem to be able to convince anyone that birth control is a big step towards solving this problem.....

Every good Westerner knows the only solution to a billion starving Africans is to let them into our countries, sure we have no where to put them, that doesn't matter.

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 26):
Good way to make all food animals extinct. Do you really think that we'll (as a species) donate the prime land required to allow natural cow, pig and sheep herds/flocks to exist if it's not for our fiscal benefit?

This is something I find amusing, people who want *insert animal activity here* to be banned because it harms those animals, despite the fact that those animals who perform *animal activity* would not exist were it for not their capacity to perform *activity* since humans have bred them specifically for that purpose. Dairy, meat, eggs, bullfighting all fit. The number of Friesian cows in existence would be less than 1% what they are today if dairy was illegal.

Also amusing, they want dairy banned yet if it was outlawed those cattle would die miserable deaths abandoned by the millions in paddocks. Much worse than chewing some lucerne in a shed for 15 minutes a day.

Quoting Pu (Reply 27):
Animals kill animals without regard to the feelings of their supper. Don't most on this thread see humans as just an evolutionary development from the ape?

A.net is full of the enlightened, it is 'settled science' -though no science should ever be settled- that humans did in fact evolve from primates. All human achievement is only because we are marginally more intelligent than other primate cousins, we're not special.

Quoting rwessel (Reply 32):
Most humans eat very little meat.

Not sure what your definition of 'very little' is but looking at global meat consumption statistics the average meat consumption per person on earth is 41kg, that is nearly a kilogram per person per week. I do not consider that to be 'very little, although by personal standards I'd be devastated eating that little, probably currently running at around 150-200kg/year.
 
steman
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 7:49 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 16):
Have you ever thought how it is possibloe even for small income families to put meat on the table every day? Only mass psoruding makes the Prices possible that Aldi, Lidl & co offer. Every Company must make a Profit, otherwise they go bust. Without profits there would be no Jobs. Without corporate profits People would be much poorer.

OTH mass production is not as ethical as the production of slow Food. It happens to be the annua Martini Goose eating tonight with friends, 2 couples, a goose that has been raised on free range, i good conditions. Not a frozen flying object slaughtered in a mass production factory. However, such good food has it's price.

Cheap mass produced food is the reason for which low income families are those suffering more from problems like obesity. Of course people have to eat but we don´t have to eat as much as we do now. It´s junk food. I think there should be more restrictions on how food is produced. We´re not talking about goods that are not necessary for living.
Of course Companies have to make a profit. It´s the greediness of many Companies that I despise. They don´t just want to make a profit. They want to make a huge profit, no matter what the consequences. If left unchecked they would sell us dust coated in sugar and claim it´s all natural.
As I said before, it´s not only a matter of how animals are treated, it´s a matter of what we put into our bodies. The amount of antibiotics and other medicaments, as well as growth hormones and chemicals is simply awful. Let´s eat less but let´s eat better. I don´t feel like spending 12 € for 400gr of organic chicken breast, so I rather not buy chicken than eat the 3€ one which I know comes mass production where animals are kept packed in small spaces, filled with medicaments to prevent epidemics, force fed with stuff full of chemicals and live a short and horrible life.
 
rwessel
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:36 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 33):
Not sure what your definition of 'very little' is but looking at global meat consumption statistics the average meat consumption per person on earth is 41kg, that is nearly a kilogram per person per week. I do not consider that to be 'very little, although by personal standards I'd be devastated eating that little, probably currently running at around 150-200kg/year.

That's a bit dated (it's a 2003 report, the 2015 figures are projections), but...

If you look at developing countries excluding China and Brazil, which will still make up well over half the population of the planet, it's 19.8kg/y, which is about 54g/day, which is not a lot, the industrialized countries are nearly five times than that, and meat-heavy places like the US will be higher still. And much of the consumption in the developing world is biased much more towards poultry and more efficient meats.
 
tommy1808
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 8:51 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 33):
Atheists tend to hold that humans like all other animals are objects made up of mostly carbon, oxygen and hydrogen that is animated by electrons. If you reduce life to that then cruelty and suffering of animals is largely meaningless. Suffering is a change of the distribution of electrons that is elementally equal to the change from happiness.

Hence why it is ironic for someone to hold that avoiding cruelty is important while simultaneously believing cruelty is intrinsically meaningless.

Most Atheists, in fact i am not aware of exceptions, believe in the fact of evolution. Which perfectly well explains altruism as a part of life. Most are humanists on top of that. And what do electrons have to do with life beyond the fact that chemistry is somewhat difficult without them? And what do electrons have to do with emotions?

And we do not "believe" that life is nothing more than chemistry and physics, we know that is what life is. That is called science.

I don´t see how believing into the petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak and vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully that the God of the bible is, makes the world a better place than simple knowing that being good is good, because that is the successful survival model evolution came up with.

A strawman never gets you very far in a discussion.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 33):
I am absolutely certain my consumption of a cow born and raised in Australia using Australian inputs and money has no effect whatsoever on the price that a Ghaianan pays for corn.

Did you get that certainty from your priest or did you ever care to check how markets work. Unless you grow your own corn just to raise your own cattle on your own land that you would otherwise grow pretty flowers on, everything you consume has an effect on prices.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
PanHAM
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:16 am

Quoting steman (Reply 34):
should be more restrictions on how food is produced. We´re not talking about goods that are not necessary for living.
Of course

Do you want to re-incarnate the DDR? A Country in which the Food they served their inmates was actually rubbish.

People are free to eat what they want but there should be some education about Food. Only, the results are that children throw away the healthy stuff and eat junk instead because it tastes better to them.

You would be surprised how cheapit can be to feed yourselve with good Food, even in a place like Frankfurt. Farmers markets and direct sales on farms are available all over the places. But People also lost skills to prepare / cook Food. Many don't even know how to boil water and believe that they Need a cook apprenticeship to Switch on the electric ovens.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
tommy1808
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:31 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
People are free to eat what they want but there should be some education about Food. Only, the results are that children throw away the healthy stuff and eat junk instead because it tastes better to them.

Well, actually kids have to be trained to prefer junk first, if they are used to have the option, they surprisingly often chose and apple over chocolate cake.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
But People also lost skills to prepare / cook Food. Many don't even know how to boil water and believe that they Need a cook apprenticeship to Switch on the electric ovens.

And most people have a hard time to know what is "in season", and are mighty surprised how cheap fresh, good food can be if you stick to seasonal food. If you stick to seasons, you can eat Demeter organic food for a few Euro/day, if you just cook whatever tickles your fancy, you won´t get out cheaper than that.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
PanHAM
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:13 am

Pommes (Chips) and ketchup is what Kids fancy. Our frriends 5 year old Grand child gets only good organic Food from the one granny and the other gives him Pommes and ketchup, alternately noodles.


Otherwise, a good mix does it and even the farmers market offers goods that have been flown in. Which is OK, why should all that belly capacity go empty.

What I don'Ät understand is, how can chinese grown produce be "BIIO" when it is shipped on routes from China to the European North range where Container availability is scarce some times of the year . Shipping NZ apples or lamb from a coiuntry which otherwise would have to return the boxes empty makes sense, bio produce from China doesn't.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
photopilot
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 2:53 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 33):
I am absolutely certain my consumption of a cow born and raised in Australia using Australian inputs and money has no effect whatsoever on the price that a Ghaianan pays for corn.

In the USA, approximately 40% of the entire corn production is used to produce Ethanol for fuel, and approximately 5% is used to produce High Fructose Corn Syrup. Only approximately 36% is actually used to feed animals.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/time-to-rethink-corn/
So the reality is that every time you get into your car you're taking away more potential food calories from humans, then every time you chow down on a steak.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 37):
But People also lost skills to prepare / cook Food. Many don't even know how to boil water and believe that they Need a cook apprenticeship to Switch on the electric ovens.

I wonder how much lack of "cooking" is not due to actual knowledge, but to sheer laziness? While there is absolutely no doubt that many people simply don't know how to cook, there is also a vast "profit-added" segment of food production where pre-packaged, pre-cooked food (just microwave and serve) is produced simply for profit.
The North American fast-food society has conditioned people to wanting their food NOW, not waiting. And that same mentality carries over into home food. People want (or have been conditioned) to throwing something into the microwave then eating in minutes, instead of perhaps 30 minutes to 1 hour to actually cook and prepare a good meal. Let's also not kid ourselves that food production companies know that there is a higher profit to be achieved by pushing this convenience with pre-cooked food than simply selling raw foodstuffs.

Perhaps schooling these days should stress some life skills. That old Home Economics class that teaches students about food, what's good for them, how to cook healthy meals, etc. Perhaps actual life skills would be of more value to students (and society) than another class in intellectual basket weaving!
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
I wonder how much lack of "cooking" is not due to actual knowledge, but to sheer laziness?

Don't forget the cultural norms as well. The joke about sending women to the kitchen to make you a sandwich is more than just a joke.

My mom rarely cooked and on the times she did she did not let me around to even learn. I asked her several times to teach me (as a kid, as a teenager, and as a college student) and she always said no.

Today my palate is very limited and I do not jump out of my comfort zone to make meals I probably won't like. The meals I prepare are simple meals that don't require too much hassle, have a recipe that's easy to follow, or I've done in the past.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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pvjin
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:52 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 38):
Well, actually kids have to be trained to prefer junk first, if they are used to have the option, they surprisingly often chose and apple over chocolate cake.

   Through my childhood I had the privilege of eating proper, healthy home made food, as a result I don't even feel like eating junk food at all. Of course living in middle of nowhere with no Mcdonalds around within 30km or so helped too, but now that I live in a city I don't really feel like visiting those either. Only somewhat junk food that I eat is pizza, and even that only a couple of times a year.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
I wonder how much lack of "cooking" is not due to actual knowledge, but to sheer laziness? While there is absolutely no doubt that many people simply don't know how to cook, there is also a vast "profit-added" segment of food production where pre-packaged, pre-cooked food (just microwave and serve) is produced simply for profit.
The North American fast-food society has conditioned people to wanting their food NOW, not waiting. And that same mentality carries over into home food. People want (or have been conditioned) to throwing something into the microwave then eating in minutes, instead of perhaps 30 minutes to 1 hour to actually cook and prepare a good meal. Let's also not kid ourselves that food production companies know that there is a higher profit to be achieved by pushing this convenience with pre-cooked food than simply selling raw foodstuffs.

Yes, in this era of internet and Google search lack of knowledge is simply not an excuse when it comes to such simple tasks as making food. The internet is full of step by step guides and recipes that any adult with normal mental capabilities should be able to follow, so it's pure laziness rather than anything else.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
izbtmnhd
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 4:53 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
And we do not "believe" that life is nothing more than chemistry and physics, we know that is what life is. That is called science.

I don´t see how believing into the petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak and vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully that the God of the bible is, makes the world a better place than simple knowing that being good is good, because that is the successful survival model evolution came up with.

If you believe in physics then you know the math currently leads to a place where there is "copy" of you on another Earth that is ultra-religious and hates atheists. There's also another "copy" that hangs out at Mickey D's all day plowing through Big Macs. Hell, there's another "copy" where you are the President and CEO of MCDs.

So what's the point of humanist morality again?

Science belief: There's more to see beyond Climate Change and Evolution.

-- IZB

[Edited 2015-11-13 08:57:10]

[Edited 2015-11-13 09:02:30]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Fri Nov 13, 2015 10:20 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 26):
Good way to make all food animals extinct. Do you really think that we'll (as a species) donate the prime land required to allow natural cow, pig and sheep herds/flocks to exist if it's not for our fiscal benefit?

They have wild populations.

But I am not really sure I understand what you're saying... we should continue to consume meat and not move to a possible system of meat in vitro because domestic animals would "go extinct?" They all existed prior to us, I am sure they'd be fine without us domesticating them, even if certain offshoots or traits would die out

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 43):
If you believe in physics then you know the math currently leads to a place where there is "copy" of you on another Earth that is ultra-religious and hates atheists. There's also another "copy" that hangs out at Mickey D's all day plowing through Big Macs. Hell, there's another "copy" where you are the President and CEO of MCDs.

If one believes physics? Strange statement, it's like saying if one believes in gravity.

Anyway, what you're saying makes sense only if we assume that the universe is infinite and is infinitely distributed with planets. While the estimated amount of stars and planets is astounding, it is NO where near the amount you'd need to have dozens of almost identical copies of earth with slight variances.

And all that is assuming that there aren't processes that limit certain outcomes. If I roll a pair of dice (6 sided) there is a 0% chance I'll roll a 13. You can give me infinite rolls on infinite planets for an infinite amount of time, I'll still never roll a 13. My point is that even if we did have an infinite universe, you can't say we'd have all these different variants... some things may just happen all the time. But I digress...
 
QFA380
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:30 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
Unless you grow your own corn just to raise your own cattle on your own land that you would otherwise grow pretty flowers on, everything you consume has an effect on prices.

In Australia we are blessed with year round sunshine, water and an abundance of land that is suitable as pasture but not for crops, in fact we have more land dedicated to beef production than the entire size of Germany. Beyond the inputs of oil which I presume Australian beef and Ghanaian corn production have a near zero impact on the price of, the markets are not connected. Their production inputs cannot be substituted.

By all means, if you want to feel guilty for eating meat thinking you are forcing children in Africa to starve, go right ahead.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
And what do electrons have to do with emotions?

And we do not "believe" that life is nothing more than chemistry and physics, we know that is what life is. That is called science.

Wait what? These are contradictory. Life is chemistry and physics yet electrons have nothing to do with emotions? Electrical currents in our brain, according to the materialist, are what animate humans and give us consciousness.

Quoting izbtmnhd (Reply 43):
So what's the point of humanist morality again?

Science belief: There's more to see beyond Climate Change and Evolution.

Hallelujah. Humanist morality is the secular manifestation of a deeper longing for meaning. It should not exist in the atheist worldview.

I know of no morality or moral code or precept, that can be claimed to be removed from religion, that is universal in humans and exclusive to humans.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
If one believes physics? Strange statement, it's like saying if one believes in gravity.

It was an ipso facto statement. If he believes in physics (which he does), then by that fact he should similarly follow the science through to its end.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
Which perfectly well explains altruism as a part of life.

Altruism does not exist in a pure form, altruism is game theory writ large and benefits the giver or provides a self perceived benefit. Life for many cooperative species is a repetitive prisoners dilemma where the instant benefits of cheating are outweighed by the long terms costs. This is not altruism.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 36):
I don´t see how believing into the petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak and vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully that the God of the bible is, makes the world a better place than simple knowing that being good is good, because that is the successful survival model evolution came up with.

I sincerely appreciate you debating from a position of mutual respect. Clearly your humanist morality provides ample room for needless insults.
For future reference a cursory glance of the Bible may in fact challenge many of your notions regarding the Biblical God, notably the 'unforgiving' part.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:55 pm

I do not have a hard time being a meat eater. Seasoned and aged properly, the right cut can almost be cut with a fork.

Delicious.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
777way
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):

I just saw a second of that linked video and closed the window, unbelievable, what was happening there, what the fuck is going on in this world, that cant be real, its beyond sadistic, do watch just one second of it all those who have chosen not to click it, its an eye opener, humanity needs to change big time.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:00 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 47):
I just saw a second of that linked video and closed the window, unbelievable, what was happening there, what the fuck is going on in this world, that cant be real, its beyond sadistic, do watch just one second of it all those who have chosen not to click it, its an eye opener, humanity needs to change big time.

You're a muslim from Pakistan, would you be willing to forgo halal meat? Because this video is showing how beef is slaughtered in a halal killing chain.

If you look at my video you'll see how it should be done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAXCSYA49J0

The animals don't suffer at all. There is no reason why animals couldn't be stunned prior to halal and kosher slaughter.
 
777way
Posts: 6470
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RE: I'm Having A Hard Time Being A Meat Eater

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:06 pm

No thats not how halal is done, infact it looks totally haram and unconsumable, halal or no halal I dont like the idea of eating meat anymore.

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos