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flyingturtle
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:59 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 129):

On the drive home, NPR was saying the restaurant these people open fire on is Cambodian. Why in the world would you target a Cambodian restaurant?

Le Cambodge is a restaurant, and "Cambodge" means "Cambodia": http://www.lecambodge.fr/

The restaurant workers pictured on the website don't look Cambodian.

As a terrorist, you want to create mayhem apart from the other terrorist cells - so when police is tied down at place A, you create havoc in B and C. And then hit in D and E, in a non-predictable way. Possibly Le Cambodge is just in a place where you can hit the most people while being away from the main roads (where police vehicles will be under way).

Quoting OA412 (Reply 129):

I agree, and this is what I try and get across all the time. We can't blame the majority for the sins of the minority.

I don't really agree. When one policeman is treating you like a total prick, the reputation of all the police suffers. You just make this connection emotionally, unintentionally and involuntary. The police can hire 10 or 20 impeccably working new recruits - but the damage is done. In the same way, Muslims will all suffer when a few of them create havoc. It's always, always the loudest, the most annoying and the most violent of the Muslims that create the reputation for the rest.

Every group has the duty of harshly and swiftly excluding those that damage the public standing of said group. "It's a fellow policeman, a colleague of ours..." - no. Kick his ass & goodbye.



David

[Edited 2015-11-13 18:11:25]

[Edited 2015-11-13 18:18:21]
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Acheron
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:03 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 130):
Assad create the huge flux of refugees towards Europe

That's a nice way to elude NATO's reponsability for some of the mess in Syria and the middle east in general.
 
Ken777
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:04 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
if the government is incapable of protecting ordinary people then those people should be allowed to protect themselves.

What would another million guns in the US done to stop 9/11? Or the Boston Marathon Bomber?

Quoting sebolino (Reply 3):
3 different attacks.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the French people today.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Perhaps not, but in this situation Europeans are just bunch of weak sheep compared to Americans, a piece of cake to terrorists.

Like 0/11?

Quoting sebolino (Reply 7):
Sure, if your country doesn't make the slightest move to fight terrorists where they are, you're safe.

For now.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):
How about deporting radicalized people instead of just Muslims?

My favorite opinion is that people who go to be radicalized and trained should be considered to have automatically surrendered their citizenship and not be allowed back into the country. The family should have to register as a terrorist family (just like sex offenders).
 
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flyingturtle
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:16 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 132):
That's a nice way to elude NATO's reponsability for some of the mess in Syria and the middle east in general.

Yeah, and not to forget President George Walker B. for invading Iraq and disbanding its army, which is now sorely needed to fight ISIS, and the entire world for propping Assad instead of bolstering the moderate rebels and the Kurds who fight ISIS.

But this is another topic.


David
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HELyes
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:20 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 129):
The vast, vast majority of Muslims in this world just want to live peacefully, and do what they can to ensure a good life for themselves and for their families.

  

And these ordinary moderate Muslims are targeted by the extremist groups in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere in Middle East. Just saw a documentary film about an Iraqi family who decided to risk their lives and escape to Europe. The husband was beaten up by the new fundamentalist rulers, they had seen the wife driving the family car.
 
ual777
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 126):
Clearly, something must be done. We cannot continue to allow radicalized fundamentalists to move freely around the world carrying out these atrocities. But it must be done in a way that does not involve genocide or mass internment of innocent civilians on the "Muslim" side while protecting the rights of those on the "French" side to live their lives.

Everyone already there stays, but not one more enters. It may be a radical minority, but how many more have to die? This "silent, peaceful majority" doesn't turn these guys out when they should. Frankly I don't care about the refugees anymore. There also needs to be new anti-extremism laws that strips these freaks of residency or citizenship and deports them immediately.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 134):
Yeah, and not to forget President George Walker B. for invading Iraq and disbanding its army, which is now sorely needed to fight ISIS, and the entire world for propping Assad instead of bolstering the moderate rebels and the Kurds who fight ISIS.

But this is another topic.

Blame Bin Ladin. If 9/11 had never of happened, then Afghanistan and Iraq wouldn't have either.
It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
 
Acheron
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:29 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 134):
and the entire world for propping Assad instead of bolstering the moderate rebels and the Kurds who fight ISIS.

There are no such things as moderate rebels in Syria. And the world, specially NATO has done plenty to "prop them up" just to have the weapons fall in the hands of ISIS and Al-Nusra.
 
DDR
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:32 am

So amazing that so many people on this website are putting out comments about how we can't blame Islamic terrorists because of proof. How dumb are you people? I mean really? Stop trying to just be argumentative. Good grief. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the U.S. and the rest of the West.

No one makes these terrorists shoot and kill innocent people except their religious leaders.
 
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flyingturtle
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 136):
Blame Bin Ladin. If 9/11 had never of happened, then Afghanistan and Iraq wouldn't have either.

O RLY? 9/11 and Al Qaida had no ties to Iraq. And neither Richthofen's triplane nor other weapons of mass destruction have been found there. GWB is at least partly at fault for the creation of ISIS.

Now I go to bed and I sincerely hope the death toll won't climb much higher...  


David
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Acheron
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:39 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 138):

So amazing that so many people on this website are putting out comments about how we can't blame Islamic terrorists because of proof. How dumb are you people? I mean really? Stop trying to just be argumentative. Good grief. Stop making excuses. Stop blaming the U.S. and the rest of the West.

Ignoring the root causes and history of the region just to please a bunch of politicians it's what have us in this mess.

Burying your head in the sand and pretending actions in the middle east don't have consequences at home is dumb, to say the least.
 
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:56 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 99):
It's the day after they got Jihadi John in Syria so I am going to guess its related or retaliation.

With this level of coordination, that is extremely unlikely.
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DDR
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:59 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 140):

Your post doesn't address anything in my post. Nothing at all. I don't suggest any causes. I simply state that people on this forum want to argue. Only an idiot would refuse to admit that ISIL isn't responsible. Of course the Middle East has been handled incorrectly. Duh.

What I'm stating is that people need to stop denying this was an Islamic terrorist attack. Can't wait until Russia starts dealing with these idiots.
 
Aither
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:17 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 129):
The vast, vast majority of Muslims in this world just want to live peacefully, and do what they can to ensure a good life for themselves and for their families.

Sure but do not forget that when they have the choice they elect islamist parties...
I mean, islam terrorism does not grow from nowhere. It's based on very conservative cultures very different from ours in Asia Europe or America. And as the world is moving forward and not them they increasingly feel frustrated against - let say whoever is not like them. Just my feeling. Don't blame western nations : whatever you do and don't do in Middle East or North Africa will always be an excuse to hate you.
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Acheron
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 143):

My bad, then. It seemed like you were saying the west had nothing to do with it at all, including NATO's foreign policy towards the middle east.
 
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DocLightning
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:18 am

Quoting DDR (Reply 138):

So amazing that so many people on this website are putting out comments about how we can't blame Islamic terrorists because of proof.

I think it's pretty obvious that this was Islamic terrorism. If not, who else would do this? Why have we never heard from them before?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 140):
Burying your head in the sand and pretending actions in the middle east don't have consequences at home is dumb, to say the least.

That's part of it, but other countries have also taken action in the ME and have not had as many terror attacks. Part of it is opportunity. In Paris, it is easy for an Islamic extremist to fit in as "just another Muslim." In other countries and cities, not so much.

Quoting ual777 (Reply 136):
This "silent, peaceful majority" doesn't turn these guys out when they should.

I agree with this point. All of us should feel obligated to report or (depending on relationship) directly intervene with those in our midst who are becoming radicalized in any ideology. That can involve some painful introspection that many people are not prepared to do.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 129):
I think that's the million dollar question. How do you do that? I

I don't know. This is why I am a doctor and not a public policy-maker.
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OA412
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:21 am

Quoting ual777 (Reply 136):
Blame Bin Ladin. If 9/11 had never of happened, then Afghanistan and Iraq wouldn't have either.

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. It's unfortunate that people continue to believe this.

Quoting HELyes (Reply 135):
And these ordinary moderate Muslims are targeted by the extremist groups in Syria, Iraq and elsewhere in Middle East. Just saw a documentary film about an Iraqi family who decided to risk their lives and escape to Europe. The husband was beaten up by the new fundamentalist rulers, they had seen the wife driving the family car.

Exactly.

Quoting DDR (Reply 138):

Who is making that claim? I've read every post in this thread, and I'm not seeing anyone making that claim.

Quoting Aither (Reply 144):
Sure but do not forget that when they have the choice they elect islamist parties...

Can we really put stock in those elections? It's highly arguable that those are free and fair elections.



[Edited 2015-11-13 19:24:38]
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777Jet
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:26 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 1):
Not surprised one bit, with EU's long tradition of ultra liberal immigration policies and inability to protect its borders EU has been inviting terrorists for a long time.

  

Couldn't agree more. I'm surprised something on this scale hasn't happened sooner or more frequently.

Sarkozy and others who said that 'multiculturalism had failed' were correct.
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Acheron
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 148):
Sarkozy and others who said that 'multiculturalism had failed' were correct.

Sarkozy's itchy trigger finger has some of the blame for the mess. Self-fulfilling prophecy, if anything...
 
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777Jet
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:45 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 149):
Sarkozy's itchy trigger finger has some of the blame for the mess. Self-fulfilling prophecy, if anything...

It started long, long before that...
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AirlineBrat
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:57 am

My thoughts are with the French. Hopefully Isil did not not instigate a second holocaust. When moving to a new country, it is best to assimilate to the local culture and express respect towards your new community. Otherwise, finding a country that best represents your beliefs might be a better option.
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ltbewr
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:10 am

This was a series of coordinated terrorist attacks on 'soft' targets, intended to cause havoc to the general public, get attention for their 'cause'. I do fear that this will be taken advantage of by right wingers in France and in the USA to push for a massive military action against ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other groups.
 
A332DTW
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:33 am

Terrible, just terrible. May the victims' family and friends, in both Paris AND Beirut, ache be quickly followed by healing and justice.
 
nitepilot79
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:19 am

Disgusting, heartbreaking  .

No statement from the Le Pen family yet, I guess...
 
jetblueguy22
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:25 am

Hi All,

As many of you may have seen, many posts have been removed from this thread. The overwhelming majority of the deletions were for "Disrespecting Other Users" or "Flamebait/Harsh Language." While we understand this is a hot topic, our rules must also be followed. We ask that you please take a look at them if you do not remember them. Blatant racism towards a group or complete disrespect towards other users ideas will not be tolerated. Everybody is free to share a view or opinion, but it must be respectful in nature.

On behalf of the Moderators, our thoughts and prayers are will those in Paris tonight.

Regards,
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
slider
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:50 am

My prayers are with Parisians tonight.

Lot of strong words in this thread and I will refrain from fanning the flames, especially since the mods already weighed in.

But think about this: Tonight, Paris is under curfew for the first time since the German occupation.

This could very much be a game changing event in the war for Western Civilization. You know, the war that we refuse to acknowledge exists. It's real. It was real on 9/11 and we still have this PC lovefest with Islam. Time to take the gloves off. No excuses. Salt the earth.
 
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 118):
Quoting Acheron (Reply 149):Sarkozy's itchy trigger finger has some of the blame for the mess. Self-fulfilling prophecy, if anything...
It started long, long before that...

Agreed, the French have had issues with Islamic terrorism dating back to the day of their colonies in Morocco and Algeria.
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frostyj
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:28 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 19):

They married American woman not Irish woman. People born in America are American.
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:49 am

what a sad day.
My wife is in Paris right now but is fortunately okey.

This is not the first time islamists slaughter innocent unarmed civilians and it will not be the last.
Everybody knows this. It has a lot to do with islamic ideology and doctrine.

The current mass influx of people from the Middle East into Europe is very concerning.
A lot of bad people can already be inside Europe, and the security services must be finding it more and more difficult to monitor potential threats.

It really worries me an operation of this scale can be carried out without the security services knowing anything in advance.
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 127):
They married American woman not Irish woman. People born in America are American.

And that's the whole problem with radicalizing Islamic youths in Europe. People love to shout, "send them back to their own country!"

But this is their country. They aren't Algerian, Moroccan or Iraqi. They were born and raised in France or the Netherlands or Germany, they have the nationality, so there's no place to send them "back" to.

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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 128):

Indeed. Even if less than 1% of those people immigrating from the ME to Europe right now have extremist thoughts, it will still be a lot of extremists that are freely entering Europe right now. I'm sorry but the immigration from people of a certain religion has got to stop completely. Too bad for the rest of the immigrants who are peaceful but that is unfortunately the price they have to pay.
 
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Dahlgardo
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 129):

But this is their country. They aren't Algerian, Moroccan or Iraqi. They were born and raised in France or the Netherlands or Germany, they have the nationality, so there's no place to send them "back" to.

I would argue that culturally these people are not French, Dutch or whatever.
Culturally they belong somewhere else. Nothing prevents these people from immigrating to an islamic country.

It's not a coincidence people immigrate from islamic countries to western countries.
Most understandably seek economic oppotunity but they do not realize why our societies prosper and thiers don't.
Our freedom rights are the basis of our succes, and they are rarely compatible with theocratic values and thinking.
leave your nines at home and bring your skills to the battle
 
jetblueguy22
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:10 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 126):
They married American woman not Irish woman. People born in America are American.

Thanks for the geography lesson, but it isn't as simple as you make it out to be. My mother was born in Germany. But she has not lived there since she was 2. Does that make her a German or an American?

People blend in yes. But you're assuming the culture disappears, which it does not.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:29 am

A French Daily Published a Cover Story on Terrorism Fears Just Hours Before the Paris Attacks

Fear of terrorism now ranks in second place among the French behind unemployment

On the morning of Friday’s attacks in Paris that left over 120 dead, French daily Le Parisien published a special cover story about a rising fear of terrorism in French society.

The article, titled “The Great Fear of Terrorism,” outlines the results of an annual study by the French National Supervisory Body on Crime and Punishment published Friday morning detailing, among other things, what the French are most afraid of.

http://time.com/4112741/le-parisien-terrorism-story-paris-attacks/
 
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sebolino
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:13 am

128 dead at least.
So what now ?

I think the only way is a total war against these bastards. We'll have to send troops abroad and to take exceptional measures in France against extremists.
In addition, i suppose that people going out to syria to fight with isis should never be able to come back, in one way or the other, i don't care.
 
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Kiwirob
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:14 am

Quoting frostyj (Reply 126):
They married American woman not Irish woman. People born in America are American.

Yes and no, there are millions of Indians, Pakistanis and Afro Caribbean born in the UK, are they British, by birth yes, but they don't consider themselves British they are Indian, Pakistanis and Afro Caribbean. You would be the first to point them out and say that's what they are.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 128):

But this is their country. They aren't Algerian, Moroccan or Iraqi. They were born and raised in France or the Netherlands or Germany, they have the nationality, so there's no place to send them "back" to.

It's the country where they are born but they still haven't stopped thinking they are Algerian, Moroccan or Iraqi, they still follow the ways of their parents and grandparents, it's a fifth column. They are still Muslims first and foremost, their nationality is French, German, Swedish, British...... but in reality they aren't.

153 people died last night, when will we wake up and see the enemy within.

All Islamic immigration to Europe should be stopped immediately, Islamic people already in Europe should be restricted in their movements, they should not be allowed to cross borders, they should not be allowed to bring in family members for there home countries.
 
F9Animal
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:15 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 27):
Jesus Christ. The bigotry and Islamophobia on display by some in this thread is absolutely embarrassing.

LOL! I about spit my drink across the room! How many times do I have to hear this garbage? 24 hours after a Islamic terrorist attack, islamaphobia comes out. Really? If Christians were doing a majority of terrorist attacks, would it be called christaphobia?

Quoting OA412 (Reply 98):
I agree, and this is what I try and get across all the time. We can't blame the majority for the sins of the minority. The vast, vast majority of Muslims in this world just want to live peacefully, and do what they can to ensure a good life for themselves and for their families

During WWII, a minority of Germans were Nazi's. The majority of peaceful Germans were irrelevant. Please, stop telling me not to be on edge, and do not tell me I need not worry, because the religion of peace isn't bad. The only way to resolve this issue is by going all out war, house to house, mosque to mosque. Trust me, that day is rapidly approaching. Poo is going to hit the fan, and it is going to be a very dark event in the history of our world. It is not an if, it is a when. History repeats itself, and trust me when I say.... The holy war they want is rapidly approaching. The people are getting angry. It won't be a military only situation..... This will be an all out battle on the streets around the world. It's coming, that is for sure.
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Scorpio
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 134):
All Islamic immigration to Europe should be stopped immediately, Islamic people already in Europe should be restricted in their movements, they should not be allowed to cross borders, they should not be allowed to bring in family members for there home countries.

Yeah, THAT will help: target millions of people for what a small minority does. The only real effect that'll have is it'll drive them into the open, welcoming arms of the extremists in ever greater numbers.

Oh, and how will you know someone is a Muslim?
 
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pvjin
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:20 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 115):
Can we really put stock in those elections? It's highly arguable that those are free and fair elections.

Well, in 2011 Egypt had relatively free and fair elections, they voted Islamist Morsi into power. That seems to be the issue, whenever a somewhat secular dictator falls in Middle East Islamists seem to be the ones winning.

I think it's pretty clear by this point that most of Islamic world doesn't subscribe to western ideals of universal human rights, especially when it comes to gender equality, rights of sexual minorities and freedom of speech. If it did we would see more democracies with high level of human rights in the Islamic world.

So, while it's a small minority of extremists doing these attacks there's definitely a larger cultural conflict between immigrants / refugees from Islamic world and European westerners. That conflict may be solved only by integrating and westernizing those who come here better than what is happening at the present moment. That process of integration requires effort and will from both sides.

Quoting Dahlgardo (Reply 130):
Most understandably seek economic oppotunity but they do not realize why our societies prosper and thiers don't.
Our freedom rights are the basis of our succes, and they are rarely compatible with theocratic values and thinking.

Exactly. Those who come to Europe should adopt the most basic values of secularism and democracy, otherwise things just aren't going to work.

http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/...ld-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/

As an example, according to this survey in Egypt, Indonesia, Pakistan and Nigeria around 90 to 95% of people who answered the survey believe it's a good thing Islam plays a large part in politics. The majority also seems to favour gender segregation in the workplace.

This I find particularly shocking:

http://www.pewglobal.org/files/2010/12/2010-muslim-01-13.png


So, it's pretty clear that an average person in most Muslim countries has quite different values from an average native European, not just the extremists as many people would like to think.

[Edited 2015-11-14 02:31:22]
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F9Animal
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:39 am

Quoting sebolino (Reply 133):

128 dead at least.
So what now ?

I think the only way is a total war against these bastards. We'll have to send troops abroad and to take exceptional measures in France against extremists.
In addition, i suppose that people going out to syria to fight with isis should never be able to come back, in one way or the other, i don't care.

It's going to take more than military action. The common people are really getting fed up. I see street brawls, and riots approaching at a fast pace. I do not know what it will take to break the camels back..... But.... The people are getting to their breaking point.

I saw a post where someone suggested the cleansing of the religion, and that this has happened in the past. That is a scary thought! Can anyone confirm if that is true? I am not a bible guy, or know much about religious history.

God Bless Paris..... God Bless those lost.
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Kiwirob
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 136):

Yeah, THAT will help: target millions of people for what a small minority does. The only real effect that'll have is it'll drive them into the open, welcoming arms of the extremists in ever greater numbers.

Except the majority of muslims support them and don't do anything to stop the radicals in their midst.

If restricting the movements of muslims in Europe had kept those 153 people who died last night alive then it would be worth it. This is the second attach in Paris this year, it won't be the last attack in Paris, there will be attacks in other cities around Europe, it's inevitable.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 136):
Oh, and how will you know someone is a Muslim?

You really need to ask that question?

I also think the police and security services need to be utterly ruthless when it comes to weeding out these people. When they catch a terrorist, they should arrest and deport or imprison there families as well, these people don't care about us so why should we care about them and their families?

Or we could just do it KGB style

Quoting Acheron (Reply 11):
Quote:
According to Morris, the KBG determined the kidnapping to be the work of the Shiite Muslim group known as Hezbollah, or Party of God. This was the same radical pro-Iranian faction that figured so belligerently in the mass hostage-taking from the TWA airliner at Beirut Airport last June.

Unlike the approach the United States used to resolve the TWA crisis, however, the Soviets did not bother negotiating with Hezbollah through Nabih Berri, Lebanon's justice minister and leader of the Shiite Amal militia.

Instead, the KGB kidnapped a man they knew to be a close relative of a prominent Hezbollah leader. They then castrated him and sent the severed organs to the Hezbollah official, before dispatching the unfortunate kinsman with a bullet in the brain.

In addition to presenting him with this grisly proof of their seriousness, the KGB operatives also advised the Hezbollah leader that they knew the indentities of other close relatives of his, and that he could expect more such packages if the three Soviet diplomats were not freed immediately.
 
Scorpio
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 139):
Except the majority of muslims support them and don't do anything to stop the radicals in their midst.

If restricting the movements of muslims in Europe had kept those 153 people who died last night alive then it would be worth it. This is the second attach in Paris this year, it won't be the last attack in Paris, there will be attacks in other cities around Europe, it's inevitable.

It wouldn't have. What it WOULD have done was create a few thousand additional terrorists, if we're lucky. But if that's what you want...

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 139):
You really need to ask that question?

I do. So please tell me: HOW will you know?
 
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pvjin
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:52 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 140):
It wouldn't have. What it WOULD have done was create a few thousand additional terrorists, if we're lucky. But if that's what you want...

I'm afraid millions of refugees flooding from conservative parts of Islamic world to Europe is going to create those few thousand additional terrorists anyway, especially when this continent of economic crisis has no jobs to offer to them, and the welfare is going to run out eventually.

[Edited 2015-11-14 02:52:49]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
Derico
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 137):
Well, in 2011 Egypt had relatively free and fair elections, they voted Islamist Morsi into power. That seems to be the issue, whenever a somewhat secular dictator falls in Middle East Islamists seem to be the ones winning.

"They" also pretty much toppled them out in a second revolution.

However, attacks like this should not be allowed outside the Islamic World. OF course they should also not happen within either, like the horrible situation in Beirut now (let's not forget it), but it is after all a primarily Islamic-centered problem, so they need to come up with solutions to this extremism in their countries.

In non-muslim nations, I am afraid that the time has come for a more intrusive approach, intrusive in the sense that some rights may be curtailed. What I mean is that Islamic fundamentalist Speech should pretty much be outlawed everywhere, just like Nazi Ideology was in Germany after WWII. It doesn't solve the problem of course, but it does send a message. Beyond that, anyone convicted (with stringent proof) of this kind of behavior should just spend indefinite time in jail, if they are not nationals deported immediately. Those two measures on the "law enforcement side".

Longer term, there has to be massive investments in people and neighborhoods to integrate the current populations into the greater society, that is a better solution in future vision. If it means spending a lot of money, then so be it. It is better than losing lives. The best area to invest is in small children and beyond. This should be countered with much more stringent immigration and asylum controls. Both of these measures on the "cultural side".

Finally, if an attack does occur, I'm afraid that massive retaliation is needed. No more dancing around. Of course the targets MUST be legitimate terrorist strongholds, but if it means some collateral damage, then it is a sad price that must be paid. People under the rule of terrorists are pretty much dead anyway, and leaving the problem to fester will kill them and future generations. Overall I think outside powers should stop getting their hands in the Islamic world, make it clear they will let the government and people there decide their futures. But if people from the region attack other nations outside and there is proof, then there will be massive consequences. It is a sad fact, but that is the nature of war. Long term, that may spur people to just want to get rid of anyone with extremist views if they know it will mean outside powers will stop bombing and destroying their lives. That is on the "military side".

In the real world none of this will happen, but that is just my opinion.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
frostyj
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:27 am

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 128):

True. There are a few Muslims in my university class in England. They are very much English with minimal cultural differences between the rest of us.
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na
Posts: 9812
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 33):
Quoting lewis (Reply 24):
Japanese,

Aum Shinrikyo & Japanese Red Army.

Quote:
Greeks,

Revolutionary Nuclei.

Quote:
Italians,

Brigate Rosse.

Quote:
Irish,

(P)IRA & the Loyalist Paras.

Quote:
Germans

Probably the more famous of the lot, the Red Army Faction.

Things of the past. So what.
All these domestic terrorist groups aimed their attacks against people ruling the hated system, or representing them. Islamists kill innocents. And they kill many, many more than all mentioned above combined. And they kill NOW.
 
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SOBHI51
Posts: 3950
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:11 pm

Any person involved in such horrific actions, his family should be deported within a week to there original countries even if born in France or Germany etc......
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6029
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 12:52 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 145):
Any person involved in such horrific actions, his family should be deported within a week to there original countries even if born in France or Germany etc......

Europe would not be Europe if you could suspend laws on a whim. If you have a passport of a country, you are always allowed to enter that country at any time, and when you leave that country, it's because you have decided so.

And something to consider is that France is a country that has taken separation from church and state to its extreme. The US look like a schoolboy in this instance. In the US, politicians still call upon god. Obama does it, Bachman does it, McCain does it, everybody does it. In its core, the US is a deeply Christian country. In France, nobody bothers you when you are a Christian, but I don't remember a politician ever calling God's help.

"You're muslim? Nah, doesn't interest me."

In this regard, I want to remember the Muslim who was employed in the kosher shop, and saved Jewish lives when these Jihadists attacked on January 7th.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:06 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 93):
s. Isis/Jihadism is seducing all kinds of people, including ones without any immigrant background.

Angry young men will happily kill and rampage given a justification by someone they esteem. The rationale is less important than a basic need for violence.

This is a lot less about Syria or retribution for French policy and more about disaffected boys unhappy with their crappy lives and looking for someone to blame.

Quoting OA412 (Reply 98):
and do what they can to ensure a good life for themselves and for their families.

Disagree.

From Iran to Morocco I don't see many Muslims doing what they can to get a better society for "themselves and for their families". They either want to flea to Europe or accept whatever authority is in power this week.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 137):
a larger cultural conflict

Culture matters. Some produce democracy, wealth and stable societies. Others produce poverty, an inability to govern themselves and perpetual instability.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 139):
xcept the majority of muslims support them and don't do anything to stop the radicals in their midst

Amen.
The weak-minded anthem that most Muslims are peaceful ignores the fact they have the power to stop most of this....stop it by cultural change, by demanding stable government, by not funding the 'charities' at the local mosque, etc.

Quoting Derico (Reply 142):
ly, if an attack does occur, I'm afraid that massive retaliation is needed.

It's always tempting to think we're on a collision course and that we may as well kill them all now. I don't think that's necessary. Yet.





Pu.
 
LSZH34
Posts: 651
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:16 pm

Anyone really surprised? This was bound to happen and this wasn't the last one. The politicians should stop sending their condolences out and start doing some goddamn work.
 
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Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:29 pm

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 148):

Anyone really surprised? This was bound to happen and this wasn't the last one. The politicians should stop sending their condolences out and start doing some goddamn work.

I know, right?

Countless blogs/forums/social media feeds are full with "How could this happen?, "I can't believe it!". I'm sitting here in disbelief over these individuals. I don't understand how people thought this wouldn't occur. These events will occur more and more frequently now. Plastering posts and pictures of "Praying for Paris" won't help.

Breaks my heart to see the innocent suffer death and injury on behalf of the mentally ill terrorists.

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