Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 149): Countless blogs/forums/social media feeds are full with "How could this happen?, "I can't believe it!". I'm sitting here in disbelief over these individuals. I don't understand how people thought this wouldn't occur. These events will occur more and more frequently now. Plastering posts and pictures of "Praying for Paris" won't help.

I totally agree, personally I've been expecting a major attack like this to happen for a last year or so, surprised it didn't happen sooner. While security services are most certainly doing their best there's no way they are going to uncover every single plot and discover every single terrorist among thousands and thousands of radicals living in Europe.

It's pretty easy to understand why organizations like ISIS exist from this viewpoint. Here in the west we have high quality education systems, endless amounts of information, pretty much everybody can read and so on, yet we still have so many people who are very much incapable of independent and critical thinking. Then go to countries like Iraq and Somalia where people are much less educated, some can't even read, no wonder it's so easy for religious leaders to brainwash people to believe whatever they want.

Absolutely we are also going to see more of this stuff within next 2 years, I'm glad I don't live in any major Western European city. The terrorists have won and there's no hope to be seen.

[Edited 2015-11-14 05:41:17]

Syrian passport found on one of the suicide bombers. The biorders need to be more secure. I fear with the mass amount of refugees coming in, terrorists can come in, too.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 143): True. There are a few Muslims in my university class in England. They are very much English with minimal cultural differences between the rest of us.

What you see on the outside and what they think are two different things. Take the July 7 bombers, three were born and educated in the UK, nobody had a clue about what they were going to do, 52 people died. They were the kind of people you think are no different from you.

In answer to several posters here, I will remind you that French people on average are not very religious. Churches are empty, and mosques are full only because they're rare compared to the needs. Jews are also not very religious, especially considering the most religious ones are the first to emigrate to Israel.

I don't know what will happen, but I know that it won't be a religious war, for lack of fighters.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 151): Syrian passport found on one of the suicide bombers. The biorders need to be more secure. I fear with the mass amount of refugees coming in, terrorists can come in, too.

Somebody with one pistol, one revolver, an assortment of machine pistols, ammunition and several kilograms of TNT was caught... by the police in Bavaria, driving a car from Montenegro passing through Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia and Austria. Not exactly a refugee. The weapons were professionally hidden in the car.

And I would not use somebody who has just immigrated into Germany, and has to live in a refugee center, as a terrorist operative. Rather somebody who has already lived some years near the attack targets, and knows the language, and can research the targets in all leisure.

I think the bigger danger comes from immigrants who are not integrated but ostracised from the society. They are easy recruits for radical islamists.


David

Securing/closing the borders doesn't seem to be possible at the moment, an uncle of mine crossed from Italy to France without any border check, he avoided the Frejus and Mont Blanc tunnels and used a mountain pass instead.

Everything is closed in my city, I go to the cinema several times a week but it's closed indefinitely.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 140): It wouldn't have. What it WOULD have done was create a few thousand additional terrorists, if we're lucky. But if that's what you want...

You know, there are millions of immigrants of other nationalities/races/faiths in the West (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, Thai, Russian, Polish, Bosnian; historically Irish, Italians and Catholics in the US ...etc) all equally as marginalized by society at some point or other during the assimilation process who DIDN'T go on murderous rampages that kill hundreds of unarmed, innocent people. Your argument that we're essentially hostage to them (we can't upset them or else they'll radicalized and murder innocent people) is not valid or excusatory of their actions .

Apparently the terrorists were between 15 and 18 year old .... Just unbeleavable ! How can we stop such terrible incidents, when the the terrorists are that young ? How can we reach into teir mindset and stop such development in an early stage ?

http://www.nrk.no/verden/is-tar-pa-s...g-skylden-for-angrepene-1.12653547

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 157):

I wonder if they were born in France or elsewhere, and whether they had already somehow gained some experience by fighting in Syria or somewhere else.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 156):

That's true. People from certain parts of the world seem to have much harder time integrating here than people from some other, equally distant and culturally differing parts of the world.

Might be of some interest here, the state of emergency in France means that the military get police and justice powers. Taking people's guns is part of the deal, I'm pretty sure eventual suspects don't own legal guns anyway. The death penalty isn't on the cards though, the constitution has been changed to ban it even in war times.

[Edited 2015-11-14 06:44:37]

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 157): How can we stop such terrible incidents, when the the terrorists are that young ?

We have to go after the radicalizers, the leaders. Whoever they are, wherever they are and with extreme prejudice!
These scum hide behind their religion, they stay at arms length from the violence and force it on the young and vulnerable.
It is time the leaders, whether they be imams, preachers, teachers whatever it is time they learnt that what they are doing is unacceptable.. and pay the price.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 120): I do fear that this will be taken advantage of by right wingers in France and in the USA to push for a massive military action against ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other groups.

About time. Enough of this crap. Kill them all.

[Edited 2015-11-14 06:55:24]

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 157): Apparently the terrorists were between 15 and 18 year old .... Just unbeleavable ! How can we stop such terrible incidents, when the the terrorists are that young ? How can we reach into teir mindset and stop such development in an early stage ?

Just off the boat from Syria? They're just kids...

You can't reach in, you have to kill the people teaching them. All of them. Then, you have to kill them. It's sick, yes, but if by 15 you're willing to do something like this you won't be reached. You're already gone.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 150): Then go to countries like Iraq and Somalia where people are much less educated, some can't even read, no wonder it's so easy for religious leaders to brainwash people to believe whatever they want. Absolutely we are also going to see more of this stuff within next 2 years, I'm glad I don't live in any major Western European city. The terrorists have won and there's no hope to be seen.

You're totally wrong here, again.
Many terrorists are educated people who radicalize at some point in their life.
One example is "Jihadi John" who was an educated Englishman, or the terrorists who flew the planes in NY and Washington in 2001.

Many others are normal guys who are just lost in their lives and are looking for something "else", and by a strange process which is a mystery to me, accept to die for other people who are safe in their base somewhere in middle east.

One of the attacker has been identified as a Frenchman, 30 years old.

The terrorists didn't win anything, they've just increased the determination of France, Europe and US to fight harder and kill them all. And now I hope that we will engage in a f***g bloody retaliation war against ISIS and really eradicate this cancer. We need urgently to react in a very violent way. Even if I don't like war, it's a matter of basic self-defense.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 120): This was a series of coordinated terrorist attacks on 'soft' targets, intended to cause havoc to the general public, get attention for their 'cause'. I do fear that this will be taken advantage of by right wingers in France and in the USA to push for a massive military action against ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other groups.

Right wingers in France can't create an invasion army out of thin air, though.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 163): You're totally wrong here, again. Many terrorists are educated people who radicalize at some point in their life. One example is "Jihadi John" who was an educated Englishman, or the terrorists who flew the planes in NY and Washington in 2001.

Perhaps when it comes to terrorists operating in western world that's the case, but I highly doubt an average ISIS fighter in Syria is highly educated. Jihadi John wasn't exactly your average ISIS member either, he clearly held a special position in that organization's media sector, probably due to this fluent English.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 163): Many others are normal guys who are just lost in their lives and are looking for something "else", and by a strange process which is a mystery to me, accept to die for other people who are safe in their base somewhere in middle east.

True. Sometimes I wonder if Islam banning alcohol and drugs has something to do with this process. An average Finnish guy who is lost in his life more likely wastes his life on alcohol than joins any kind of a radical organization. Though of course we do have some amount of people joining Neo Nazi organizations and such, but that's pretty minor phenomenon compared to what's happening with people joining ISIS and such.

Quoting sebolino (Reply 163): The terrorists didn't win anything, they've just increased the determination of France, Europe and US to fight harder and kill them all. And now I hope that we will engage in a f***g bloody retaliation war against ISIS and really eradicate this cancer. We need urgently to react in a very violent way. Even if I don't like war, it's a matter of basic self-defense.

I hope so, but so far the apathy shown by European governments hasn't given me high hopes.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 120): I do fear that this will be taken advantage of by right wingers in France and in the USA to push for a massive military action against ISIS, Al-Qaeda and other groups.

I'm very far from a right-winger, believe me.
But what do you propose to fight ISIS, except a very strong, hard, massive and unforgiving answer ?
I don't think waiting for another major attack is an option.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 156): You know, there are millions of immigrants of other nationalities/races/faiths in the West (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, Thai, Russian, Polish, Bosnian; historically Irish, Italians and Catholics in the US ...etc) all equally as marginalized by society at some point or other during the assimilation process who DIDN'T go on murderous rampages that kill hundreds of unarmed, innocent people. Your argument that we're essentially hostage to them (we can't upset them or else they'll radicalized and murder innocent people) is not valid or excusatory of their actions .

When you degrade a large part of society to second-class citizen (which is what kiwirob is suggesting) purely based on who they are, then in THIS day and age where everyone has all the information in the world at their fingertips, that's going to lead to increased extremism, ESPECIALLY when that group already has the freedoms we take for granted and you take them away, as kiwirob suggests we do.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 167): When you degrade a large part of society to second-class citizen (which is what kiwirob is suggesting) purely based on who they are, then in THIS day and age where everyone has all the information in the world at their fingertips, that's going to lead to increased extremism, ESPECIALLY when that group already has the freedoms we take for granted and you take them away, as kiwirob suggests we do.

Increased prejudice towards Muslims in general is inevitable result of terrorist attacks like these, it simply can not be avoided. The only way to reduce tension between native European populations and Muslims is getting rid of all Islamic extremists and radicals of any sort.

The current model where we simply tolerate nearly everything and don't demand any kind of westernization and secularism from those coming here doesn't work, it has led to increasing amount of extremism already.

Quoting pvjin: when it comes to terrorists operating in western world that's the case, but I highly doubt an average ISIS fighter in Syria is highly educated.

Hardly surprising. Every organisation tends to have brighter, more skilled and/or more educated people on top.

That works for any terrorist group, army or company out there.

Most of the radicalization happens on the Internet. The US vision of freedom of speech doesn't help one bit here, it's proven very difficult to get Twitter or Facebook to close accounts of Jihadists, recruiters, even ISIS and company have official accounts ! Now show a boob and your account is closed in seconds...

What happens instead in France is that our laws have been extended to the internet, so if you put up a message in support of terrorism, you can get arrested and thrown in jail.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 167): Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 156): You know, there are millions of immigrants of other nationalities/races/faiths in the West (Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Indian, Thai, Russian, Polish, Bosnian; historically Irish, Italians and Catholics in the US ...etc) all equally as marginalized by society at some point or other during the assimilation process who DIDN'T go on murderous rampages that kill hundreds of unarmed, innocent people. Your argument that we're essentially hostage to them (we can't upset them or else they'll radicalized and murder innocent people) is not valid or excusatory of their actions . When you degrade a large part of society to second-class citizen (which is what kiwirob is suggesting) purely based on who they are, then in THIS day and age where everyone has all the information in the world at their fingertips, that's going to lead to increased extremism, ESPECIALLY when that group already has the freedoms we take for granted and you take them away, as kiwirob suggests we do.

Bull. If they really feel that way, nobody forced them to come France/Germany/Sweden/Europe and nobody is forcing them to stay. If they're feeling that disaffected/marginalized, there are a PLETHORA of theocratic Islamic republics in the world where they can feel right at home. They aren't the first immigrants to ever be marginalized or be viewed as second class citizens when assimilating, yet they're the only ones to apparently have a knife to the throat of their host country. Your feelings being hurt does not validate gunning down innocent people nor does poorly integrating immigrants warrant violent and fatal retribution against your host country.

Again most terrorists acting in Europe were not immigrants but born here. Many don't even speak Arabic.

I know several immigrants (cousin's husband from Tunisia, my boss from Algeria, various colleagues at school and work), I also know and work with Moroccans in Morocco, none of them are radical Muslims, it's as much anathema to them as to us.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 167): When you degrade a large part of society to second-class citizen (which is what kiwirob is suggesting) purely based on who they are, then in THIS day and age where everyone has all the information in the world at their fingertips, that's going to lead to increased extremism, ESPECIALLY when that group already has the freedoms we take for granted and you take them away, as kiwirob suggests we do.

Ok clever clogs how do you propose to solve the extremist Muslim problem, and if you haven't noticed it has become a problem, this is not the first and will certainly not be the last act of terrorism in Europe.

To answer your question of who is and isn't a Muslim it's simple Bob Smith more than likely isn't but Mohammad Ali most likely is.

I really don't care if we turn Muslims into second class citizens if it's what we have to do to stop this kind of behavior, being tolerant isn't working. Btw if it was Protestants, Lutherans, Buddhists or Hindi behind this my solution would be the same.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 168): Increased prejudice towards Muslims in general is inevitable result of terrorist attacks like these, it simply can not be avoided. The only way to reduce tension between native European populations and Muslims is getting rid of all Islamic extremists and radicals of any sort.

I agree 100%, but you don't achieve that by marginalizing the entire Muslim population, as kiwirob is suggesting. That's only likely to have the opposite effect.

The extremists need to be viciously dealt with. All those who have gone to Syria or Iraq to fight with ISIS and who returned to Europe need to be arrested, and put on trial for being members of a terrorist group and crimes against humanity. Extremist preachers need to be kicked out of European countries, and mosques where extremism is preached closed. A lot more attention needs to go to fighting online recruitment: attack their sites, block or remove them, make it as difficult as possible for the extremists to get to the kids.

On the other hand, you also need to offer an alternative: moderate voices need to be nurtured, their ideas seriously implemented. I remember earlier this year, after the Charlie Hebdo attack, some Belgian Imams openly calling for an 'Enlightenment' in Islam, a new reinterpretation of the religion to make it fit in with life in the West, with secularism and modern Western values. They called for the setting up of schools in the west to train imams, as most imams in the west today were not born here, and didn't grow up here. They often only recently came to the west, and have ideals that are radically different from what is acceptable in the West. Usually they don't even speak the local language, which makes it hard for them to appeal to the locally born young people. Voices of these moderate imams need to be heard, because they are talking an awful lot of sense.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 171): Bull.

Should've really stopped reading there, as an opening like that usually doesn't bode well for what follows...

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 171): Bull. If they really feel that way, nobody forced them to come France/Germany/Sweden/Europe and nobody is forcing them to stay. If they're feeling that disaffected/marginalized, there are a PLETHORA of theocratic Islamic republics in the world where they can feel right at home. They aren't the first immigrants to ever be marginalized or be viewed as second class citizens when assimilating, yet they're the only ones to apparently have a knife to the throat of their host country. Your feelings being hurt does not validate gunning down innocent people nor does poorly integrating immigrants warrant violent and fatal retribution against your host country.

Do you even realise that the people who mainly feel marginalised aren't the one who immigrated here, but the ones who are second, third and fourth generation, and don't exactly have the option of moving away, as they have far less in common with whatever that theocracy might be than with their country of birth. What you're suggesting is hyper-simplistic reasoning at best.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 173): I really don't care if we turn Muslims into second class citizens if it's what we have to do to stop this kind of behavior, being tolerant isn't working.

Oh yeah, that totally wouldn't radicalize a ton more people  

Of course something needs to be done, but being knee jerk and going too far is not the answer. And forget being fair and nice and kumbaya to people for a second... again, you would end up radicalizing even more citizens.

And let's not forget that most of these attacks are coming from citizens. I'm not saying to not be careful with the influx of immigrants coming in but simply shutting our borders isn't going to do jack to stop the problem

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 173):

Completely agree. The days of being politically correct are long gone. These kinds of attacks are going to keep happening until ISIL is destroyed.

I'm really hoping that Russia will go after them because it situations like this, the Russians have balls.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 176): And let's not forget that most of these attacks are coming from citizens. I'm not saying to not be careful with the influx of immigrants coming in but simply shutting our borders isn't going to do jack to stop the problem

True, the damage has been done already through decades of liberal immigration policy and failed integration policies. However this current wave of refugees EU is witnessing is only bring tons more people who (or whose descendants) will be potential targets for organizations like ISIS if they fail to integrate. If we have so badly failed to integrate a large portion of Europe's current Muslim immigrant population how would we succeed with those coming in the future in much larger numbers?

Deporting hate preachers isn't going to do much if new ones arrive as refugees as replacement. What is "hate preaching" here is totally normal in many conservative parts of Islamic world.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 174):

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 173):

Quoting Aesma (Reply 172):

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 171):

Here's another take on it, some of the values we support in the West, or else we should even if individuals don't, are not compatitble with Islam. That's my problem with mass immigration, some people's treatment of women, homosexuals and free speech that originates from Islam is completely unacceptable. One of the reasons we have a fairer and more prosperous society is because people abandoned religion as the key driver of their identity, and to be honest I don't like the fact that people who bring these outdated values to the forefront of their life are gaining such prominence in the Western World. The day when a Guardian writer (the Guardian is a very left-wing paper, and feminism is one of its core calues) is excusing rape because someone comes to Europe and doesn't know that rape is wrong is the day that hell freezes over. Yes, men rape who are from Western countries, but they're not acting through justification of their religion, they're just scumbags and they should never, EVER be let off. We musn't have to excuse people because of their religion, it is their responsibility to learn what our values are and conform to them. I can accept that refugees will not have the luxury of time, but then how many of the people coming into Europe are true refugees?

But those are general issues. Of more relevance is that with more eneducated Muslims, not only do social problems become exacerbated, there is potential for people, especially young, to become radicalised. I know that not every Muslim is not a terrorist, and I fully condemn racist attacks on them, but at the same time, Muslims can be sympathetic to ISIS' cause, and that should set alarm bells ringing. If Muslims can drop their religion from their life to the same extent that the Western countries have, not only will they be more progressive and less sympathetic to ISIS' barbaric crusade, but they will be much more easily assimilated into society. But that has to come from within, you cannot force people to think. it is up to every Muslim to become more secular if they want to be accepted and not feared, even if it is just a few crazies that are really doing the damage.

Sky News alert that one of the attackers came in via Greece with the refugees in October . Not sure if correct but being reported.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 180):

Such a shock.

Passed through Greece in October. Thre had been living in a Brussels apartment. All recently left Syria.

What's worse is they are no doubt laughing at us (being the civilized segment of society) for making it so easy.

Still want open borders people? Still want to welcome people from a hostile region into your country with open arms?

[Edited 2015-11-14 08:38:43]

Quoting sebolino (Reply 166): But what do you propose to fight ISIS, except a very strong, hard, massive and unforgiving answer ?

ISIS is a tool. fundend and coordinated by the Saudies ( or their Wahabite faction ) and note probably with tacit or even active approval of the US.

fighting ISIS is like cutting of a hydras heads. i.e. for every head severed you get 2 more.
go for the source Luke!

Quoting WIederling (Reply 182): ISIS is a tool. fundend and coordinated by the Saudies ( or their Wahabite faction ) and note probably with tacit or even active approval of the US. fighting ISIS is like cutting of a hydras heads. i.e. for every head severed you get 2 more. go for the source Luke!

Yeah, the US is running ISIS.  

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 175): Do you even realise that the people who mainly feel marginalised aren't the one who immigrated here, but the ones who are second, third and fourth generation, and don't exactly have the option of moving away, as they have far less in common with whatever that theocracy might be than with their country of birth.

Obviously not the case if they're willing to blow themselves up to kill innocent people in their country of birth or residence. Many of them already can and do leave for places like Syria. It's not the host country's problem if your religious values in a secular state make you feel marginalized and, again, is no validation for murdering innocent people. The host country has done their part, they've let you in and/or have granted and protected your equal freedoms as a citizen. The fact that so many other races/nationalities/faiths have assimilated with relative peace is indicative of who has the problem.

Quoting DDR (Reply 177): I'm really hoping that Russia will go after them because it situations like this, the Russians have balls.

What have those balls gotten them ? There are plenty of Islamist terror attacks in Russia, and now against Russia outside its borders.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 185):

If my memory of past history in that region, Russia ended up with a bunch of dead soldiers. It's time for the world to say enough and end these bastards. They're a cancer on the planet.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 179): some of the values we support in the West, or else we should even if individuals don't, are not compatitble with Islam.

Yet, many Muslims live peacefully in the West, practicing their religion and not blowing people up. Those who are radicalized, like IS and al-Qaida, only know what they are told by their "leaders." There are those Muslims who come to the West to get away from random bombings and being told lies by paranoid leaders.

I just wonder how many Syrian refugees across Europe are standing and marching with Paris? Someone should look into that before innocent Syrians are lynched because Islam.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 182):

I'm sorry but this is just one of the most factually incorrect posts I have ever read.

To even suggest the U.S. supports ISIL demonstrates a prejudice against the U.S. and a lack of understanding. Sure, the U.S. has made plenty of mistakes, but supporting ISIL is sure not one if them.

Nathalie Goulet, French Senate Member, just confirmed on CNN that one of the terrorists was a Frenchman.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 187): Yet, many Muslims live peacefully in the West, practicing their religion and not blowing people up.

But not so peacefully that they fully support the rights for women, homosexuals and free speech. Not so peacefully that they fully spread out from their own 'ghettos' (for want of a better word).

Quoting seb146 (Reply 187): Those who are radicalized, like IS and al-Qaida, only know what they are told by their "leaders." There are those Muslims who come to the West to get away from random bombings and being told lies by paranoid leaders.

Clearly, but like I said, for them to be fully accepted by society, they have to make an effort to conform, because if their religion is so important to them, they don't confrom. Society in Western countries did not get to be where they are by prioritising religion as a way of thinking.

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 151): Syrian passport found on one of the suicide bombers

Quoting OA260 (Reply 180): Sky News alert that one of the attackers came in via Greece with the refugees in October

Where are the "refugees are welcome here" paroles? I don't hear you!

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 189):

No doubt a radicalized strike organizer/enabler. Oye.

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 191):

The first red flag on the "refugee" issue was the sheer number of able bodied males that were coming in. I'd imagine that won't be happening anymore. Fool me once... What's worrisome is how many got in, but it seems this morning a lot of people are being arrested so hopefully they found a pot of gold in terms of information with a post attack raid.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 193):

I can already see this being turned down by officials and the media and we're gonna hear "we have to integrate them better and quicker" and so on and so forth. I have nothing against genuine refugees but if it turns out to be that one refugee took part in this, Europe should close its borders immediately.

Greek journalist Yannis Koutsomitis tweets that their country's minister of public order and citizen protection has said that the terrorist found with a Syrian passport on this person was, “registered as refugee on Leros island in October". There you have it...left wing politicians looking at these "refugees" as nothing more than votes are now partly responsible for this attack. I don't think Europe will survive this invasion.

Reference: @YanniKouts

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 194):

Yeah. Integrate them on a boat back home one can hope.

Quoting DDR (Reply 188): To even suggest the U.S. supports ISIL demonstrates a prejudice against the U.S. and a lack of understanding. Sure, the U.S. has made plenty of mistakes, but supporting ISIL is sure not one if them.

Plenty of rich Saudis, Qataris and Emiratis are supporting ISIS. What has the US done against those countries to force them to arrest and put these people in jail where they belong ?

Remember Afghanistan ? We went there because they were harboring terrorists. Why aren't we doing anything against other supporters of terrorism ?

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 193): The first red flag on the "refugee" issue was the sheer number of able bodied males that were coming in. I'd imagine that won't be happening anymore.

It's funny how the media here in Finland always talks about children and families when it comes to asylum centers here. Yet the big majority of people in them are in fact young men in their 20's or 30's.

Just a while ago so called experts and politicians were claiming terrorists aren't coming here disguised as refugees, looks like they were wrong as usual.

Wait for an attack in Germany. A hit is inevitable if they continue on this course.