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N867DA
Posts: 1358
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:08 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 244):
Young Muslims don't learn extremism from their parents, because those parents aren't very religious to begin with ! They learn from Wahhabi preachers sent by Saudi Arabia and Qatar, or by Internet. Those preachers being sent home, the new tactic is for those countries to take in young French and make preachers out of them !

My parents live in India and they have observed something similar. The grandmother in the family wears a sari. The mother wears a headscarf. The daughter wears a niqab or abaya. Ditto on the male side--grandfather wears what everyone else wears, and the sons have full on beards and salwars in an area where they are very uncommon. I don't think people following a more strict interpretation of Islam in India is a good thing, but that's what seems to be happening.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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seb146
Posts: 23148
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 7:19 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 247):
I really don't understand the appeal of lumping all 1.1 Billion Muslims together.

Lowest common denominator syndrome. By saying "Islamic attack" and "Islamic terrorist" that creates a trigger for some people to assume that ALL are involved. Couple that with the "anyone who had a different opinion than me hates America" and there you go.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 247):
You stirred up the hornets in the middle east toppling Iraq and Libya then trying to do the same in Syria.

This is the understatement of the century so far. But, some groups in one particular country will never believe that, no matter how many facts are thrust in their face.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
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sebolino
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 249):
Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 247):
I really don't understand the appeal of lumping all 1.1 Billion Muslims together.

It's easy and requires very little intellectual work. That's the appeal. It doesn't appeal to me because I know that not all Muslims are responsible for this. That said, this is one part of Islam at work. Denying that this is an ideology isn't going to get us anywhere.

Right, but ideology is a pretext here. A justification (in their mind) for crimes and acts of hatred.
You don't turn into a mass murderer just like that, because of religion. There's a pre-existing sickness or at least weakness.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
Don't know, but owning a gun would sure make me feel safer in case ISIS starts to mess around in my city.

One day, we should try to let 1500 people enter in a dark concert hall with a gun, for a concert during which they will drink beer and get excited by the music. That must be funny.
 
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DocLightning
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:38 am

Quoting sebolino (Reply 252):
You don't turn into a mass murderer just like that, because of religion.

Actually, yes you do. Some people most certainly do.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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seb146
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:42 am

American "main stream" media forgot to report that the Iranian president condemned the Paris attacks

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/11...-muslims-supporting-france-images/

Hezbollah and Hamas also condemned the Paris attacks.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world...hadists-condemn-paris-attacks.html

Not really the American "main stream" media narrative...
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
BarfBag
Posts: 2577
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:54 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 250):
My parents live in India and they have observed something similar. The grandmother in the family wears a sari. The mother wears a headscarf. The daughter wears a niqab or abaya. Ditto on the male side--grandfather wears what everyone else wears, and the sons have full on beards and salwars in an area where they are very uncommon. I don't think people following a more strict interpretation of Islam in India is a good thing, but that's what seems to be happening.

It is not good for the country for Muslims to marginalize themselves so much. You are already the most economically and educationally backward community in India today. This kind of ghettoization makes it worse. Modern India has never prevented anyone from accomplishing what their abilities gave them the capability to do. I hope your family sees sense.

Your community counts amongst yourselves everyone from the current sitting Vice President, a former President who's also a recently deceased scientific legend, multiple former cricket team captains (amongst the most high profile positions in the country), the current world #1 women's doubles tennis player and winner of this year's Wimbledon, US Open and World Championship, many of the major male bollywood stars, former army and air force chief of staffs, and dozens of other luminaries.

What more do Muslims in India need ? You are not going to get better by demanding special favours from others. In fact, all the above succeeded because they got a level playing field, not special favours. Walling yourself off from society and then getting even more bitter about the benefits of that society not coming your way, is not going to help you. It's stupid and self defeating. That's the same mistake they make everywhere else as well, not just in India. When you are free to perform freely in a competitive society, you've already proven yourselves capable of accomplishing much, so so why do you even special treatment. APJ Abdul Kalam, Shah Rukh Khan or Sania Mirza didn't get where they were, on charity.
 
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OA260
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 206):
I have to ask why the problems are that much more severe with Muslim ethnic minorities than other. The cultural difference plays a role.

In the UK for example a lot do not want to integrate into British society. They have their own communities and many discourage their kids from integration.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 232):
Apologies if I was unclear, but from what I see Indian migrants tend to settle fairly well in the UK.

Indians tend to integrate well and do well academically. At a recent gathering at Wembley stadium for the Indian PM various British Indians were being interviewed and they were actually asked about their culture and how it fits with their British culture. They all said they were British first with Indian roots. Other certain communities see themselves as the other way around and that is why you often have conflicts and integration issues.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 236):
The Arctic Cathedral in Tromsø, Norway

Nice pic would love to go back there sometime for another visit.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 244):
we don't accept things like religious courts

If you move to another country you should respect it and stick to the rules not try to change them to the country you have come from. Sadly that is what some communities try to do and it is not acceptable. Even religious schools should be strictly monitored as to what they are teaching. I would go so far to say that there should be no religious schools and that it should all be an agreed national program. When I was at school in our religious studies we were taught about various religions. That is the way it should be all over Europe with no exception.
 
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777Jet
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:00 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 253):
Quoting sebolino (Reply 252):
You don't turn into a mass murderer just like that, because of religion.

Actually, yes you do. Some people most certainly do.

  

And it is more common among certain religions it seems.
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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MrHMSH
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:53 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 251):
Couple that with the "anyone who had a different opinion than me hates America" and there you go.

In my experience it goes too far the other way just as much, there should be criticism of every religion and its practices, but criticism Islam results in you being labelled as racist and Islamophobic, and I hate that. If I say that Islam is barbaric because of its treatment of women, homosexuals etc. and because it inspires more terrorist attacks than other religions I wouldn't expect to be shot down, especially so fervently by people who claim to support equality for women and homosexuals.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 251):
By saying "Islamic attack" and "Islamic terrorist" that creates a trigger for some people to assume that ALL are involved.

They're obviously not all involved, but other religions don't inspire nutjobs in the same way, and with Christianity (as an example) becoming less and less important to people. So with every passing year, people and society can move forwards, stronger for it and less bound by what religion taught them. That's what I want. If I had my way there'd be no religion. But Islam is the most violent of a nasty bunch, and so deserves and needs criticism, because if it doesn't change and reform then neither will peoples' perception.
 
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sebolino
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 257):
Actually, yes you do. Some people most certainly do.



And it is more common among certain religions it seems.

Targetting a religion as the enemy won't help us fight against a criminal organization.
If what you say was true, Islam would be a threat for centuries, not decades. Arabs and jewish were living peacefully together in Israel until 1948, you know.
Religion (all of them) has been a pretext for wars for centuries, and this is just another attempt to justify crimes.

Do you honestly believe that a guy like "jihadi john", the worst butcher of ISIS, was a normal guy, and suddenly he became a monster in the name of God ? No ! He had a serious mental problem, and was seeking for a way to express is will to be omnipotent (just like a child). He found this way, and was persuaded that religion was a good justification, but the problem was in his head first.
Just like Nazi leaders, just like Staline ...
 
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Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:16 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 259):
Do you honestly believe that a guy like "jihadi john", the worst butcher of ISIS, was a normal guy, and suddenly he became a monster in the name of God ? No ! He had a serious mental problem, and was seeking for a way to express is will to be omnipotent (just like a child).

What? You are really saying that extremist behavior cannot stem from a fanatical understanding of a certain religion?

http://www.thelocal.se/20151115/swed...iting-ground-for-islamic-extremism

So you are implying that out of a total of 300 Swedes that left the country to fight for ISIS, 40% of them (120) all happened to be from Gothenburg and all coincidentally had a mental illness? They all were seeking a way to express themselves due to their state of mind and used religion as that outlet? No.

I'm sorry, but the facts are everywhere. Most of these are normal guys that don't feel 'at home' in their environment, thus are pushed to act when brainwashed by an organization that promises them a feeling of being fulfilled for a greater good.
 
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sebolino
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 260):
all coincidentally had a mental illness

Mental illness, no. Mental weakness, despair, search for a reason to live, yes. Add this to the presence of people willing to manipulate them in their town ... But religion could be replaced by anything strong enough to be a "life project", and you'll get the same result.
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 254):
American "main stream" media forgot to report that the Iranian president condemned the Paris attacks

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2015/11...-muslims-supporting-france-images/

Hezbollah and Hamas also condemned the Paris attacks.

http://www.skynews.com.au/news/world...hadists-condemn-paris-attacks.html

Not really the American "main stream" media narrative...

This was on Fox News yesterday. Anything hitting Sky News on an incident like this is going to hit Fox News. Though I don't suppose you consider Fox News mainstream.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 245):

There is something about that age bracket, isn't there? Impressionable and seeking something different. Some of us grow out of it while others are consumed by it.

It's a time when kids are most impressionable in formulating their ideas which leads to opinions in their later teens and early 20s which ultimately forms a persons world view. They've obviously figured out the right point at which to rope them in.

[Edited 2015-11-15 05:56:59]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
N867DA
Posts: 1358
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 255):
It is not good for the country for Muslims to marginalize themselves so much. You are already the most economically and educationally backward community in India today. This kind of ghettoization makes it worse. Modern India has never prevented anyone from accomplishing what their abilities gave them the capability to do. I hope your family sees sense.

I'm not sure if you were addressing my family specifically. My family is not Muslim. I was passing on things my parents have observed in their town. As in Europe, I think economic and social ghettoization is conning young people into thinking extremism is a way out of the problem. They don't realize its only making it harder for everyone else to prosper.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
MadameConcorde
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 2:50 pm

RT
15 November 2015
14:03 GMT

Two of the attackers involved in the Paris attacks were French nationals residing in Brussels and Molenbeek-Saint-Jean - a municipality of the Brussels-Capital region - Belgian public broadcaster RTBF has reported, citing the federal prosecutor's office.
13:39 GMT

Seven arrests have been made in Belgium in connection with the attacks in Paris, according to a Belgian official, as cited by AP.

-50%
https://www.rt.com/news/321883-shooting-paris-dead-masked/

 

RIP terror victims
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 261):
But religion could be replaced by anything strong enough to be a "life project", and you'll get the same result.

True in theory, yes.

But in practice religion is especially manipulating because it promises eternal rewards and the appeal of having no less a colleague than God on your side. All extremism become appealing in discontented populations and Muslims are widely discontented when they live in Muslim countries. A happy, thriving Muslim country is not the norm.

So please reconsider accepting the Islamic religion as a major factor here, even if there are others and even if you consider religion as only a tool to the political goals of elite manipulative thinkers. The fact that Muslim leaders on a global scale don't really exist is one huge problem because any nutcase can define doctrine...one way we can work to change this is encourage moral leadership.

We need a Muslim Pope.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 262):
They've obviously figured out the right point at which to rope them in.

Long ago every counrty and military and movement determined that an 18 y.o. boy is the best tool for most needs. Give them an authorized mode of violence and they will kill without question. It's human DNA (for young males).

Of course a sh*tty life and zero economic prospects are all the recruiting tactics you need.






Pu.
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6024
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:37 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 265):
We need a Muslim Pope.

I agree. One voice that can be trusted on, for the better or the worse.

But the question is... shia or sunni?   


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ltbewr
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:59 pm

I live in an area of Northern New Jersey with a large and growing Islamic population. Yes, there are issues, a tiny number of citizens and visitor Muslims have done terrible acts, but there is much better accommodation and economic fairness to those of the Islamic faith in this area and in general in the USA than in France that help reduce that risk. Many come to America because of our fairness, relative peace and freedom of religion that they cannot get in their homelands.

Most go to public schools and in some places are significant numbers of students of the Islamic faith, are accepted by their peers and are on sports teams. More schools and cities recognize Muslim holy days and Ramadan. They have jobs like everyone else in offices, factories, government and stores, not just doing low wage work. They may have strong views against Israel, but don't actively go after Jews. We have lawyers, doctors, judges, business people, sports stars who are openly Islamic and Imans who are respected members of our communities. In some places, there are more Mosques than Jewish temples. Don't forget the USA has a unique form of Islam since the 1950's among Black Americans, like former boxer Mohammad Ali, although that has to do more with our racist history.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:03 pm

Paris attacks: Second terrorist named as Ahmed Almuhamed 'was posing as Syrian refugee'

At least one of the terrorists behind the deaths of 129 people in Paris sneaked into France posing as a Syrian refugee, it has been claimed.

Serbian media last night reported French authorities had found a passport belonging to Syrian Ahmed Almuhamed at the scene of the attack at the Stade de France.

According to the newspaper, Blic , the 25-year-old had arrived on the Greek island of Leros on October 3 on his way to Paris.

more...
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/...1gEe?li=AA9SkIr&ocid=mailsignoutmd

    
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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OA260
Topic Author
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:21 pm

Reports that he was an Algerian who lived in France. Went to fight with ISIS in Syria and then posed as a refugee and got on a boat with 60 odd others from Turkey to Leros Island and then made his way back to France on the fake Syrian passport.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:32 pm

Somewhat related to the issue at hand...

Quote:
Saudi: #Syrian state must be destroyed to avoid revenge for what we've done to them
https://www.wikileaks.org/saudi-cables/doc110212.html
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 264):
Two of the attackers involved in the Paris attacks were French nationals residing in Brussels
Quoting OA260 (Reply 269):
Reports that he was an Algerian who lived in France. Went to fight with ISIS in Syria

So this makes three attackers who lived in France?

Why didn't the French government keep them on sight?

WTF Hollande/Sarkozy??

   Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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kngkyle
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Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 1

Sun Nov 15, 2015 5:45 pm

Please continue the discussion here: Paris Terrorist Attacks - Part 2 (by kngkyle Nov 15 2015 in Non Aviation)

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