SpaceshipDC10
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TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:46 pm

 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:51 pm

It smashes the TGV's record of 0 passenger deaths...

Much has been said and written about the Jacob bogies used in the TGV, as compared to the conventional ones in the German ICE.

I hope it's not yet another terrorist attack. "Near Strasburg" is relative - I wonder if it was in fact near Montbéliard, where the trains still have very high speed. From Strasbourg down to Basel, it's normal speed, not ludicrous speed.


David
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:53 pm

No link made at the moment with yesterday's terrorists attacks.

http://www.leparisien.fr/faits-diver...-strasbourg-14-11-2015-5276845.php
 
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Aesma
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:54 pm

We can't catch a break it seems. I've read it was a test run though, so no passengers but rather employees of the train company. But to be honest 24/7 news channel haven't stopped their coverage of the Paris attacks to give any information about that accident.
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Boeing717200
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:48 pm

Jeeze. Thankfully it's not related. They're saying it was a test train. Oye.
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:05 pm

It was a test run on the new high speed route between Paris and Strasbourg, not the more southern one which I know from some travels. It is scheduled to be opened in April 2016.

It will open a route which connects Paris and Strasbourg in just 1 h 48. The distance is 380 km.


David
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Okie
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 5:17 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 5):
It is scheduled to be opened in April 2016

One is going to have the assumption that there might be a bit of a delay on that schedule.

Okie
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 6:48 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 6):
One is going to have the assumption that there might be a bit of a delay on that schedule.

...perhaps the German railways can loan their ICE test train, which is said to be capable of 400 km/h. This one has also been used to test the new Swiss tunnels, Lötschberg and Gotthard. This German train made the Swiss record of 280 km/h, by the way.


David
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cpd
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:00 pm

Were they trying for a speed record?

Nothing said so far, but they have tried those things before - as have the Germans with ICE.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):

No speed record - would have been announced anyway. And one day after terror attacks you're not going to announce a speed record... would be in bad taste.

It's the same as with flight testing - this train is packed with computers, sensors and cameras, and then you measure vibrations, the behaviour of the pantograph and things like this.

Anyway, engineers know the gradients and the curve radii, and can calculate a safe speed. I can't speak for French maximum speeds, but some countries demand that you do testing with a safety margin of 15%. So you want to operate a TGV train with a certain weight, and you want to drive 250 km/h on this section, so you prove with testing that you can safely go 287.5 km/h there.

Similar with airplanes, where Vne + 0.07 Mach has to be safely demonstrated.

It's possible that they went too fast at the wrong point (e.g. one engineer wrongly looked up the table of maximum speeds), as you don't have safety systems active during some tests.


David
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Aesma
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
Were they trying for a speed record?

Nothing said so far, but they have tried those things before - as have the Germans with ICE.

I think you meant they have succeeded before, the TGV has had plenty of speed records, up to 550Km/h or thereabout.

They finally talked about it on TV : 49 people on board, including "passengers" in the form of employees and their families (including children).

Test run at 350Km/h (standard speed on some portions of the TGV network).

10 dead, 5 missing, a dozen seriously injured and the rest lightly injured.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sat Nov 14, 2015 11:54 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
up to 550Km/h or thereabout.

574 km/h if my memory serves right. Both power cars from that world record are used in regular passenger service, but were modified for the record attempt: Slightly larger wheels, the gaps between the cars were covered to improve the streamline, and the motors had to suffer a significantly higher voltage.

As somebody who is also a train aficionado, I really wonder about the cause of this accident, especially given that this was a test run. You have a dozen people looking at tachometers during the travel.

Possibly, somebody left equipment on the track (something that happened with a German maglev train some years ago, with more than a dozen dead), or due to disabled/non-existent safety systems, a high speed limit was ignored. There could also have been problems with safeguards... If your train is cleared to run 160 km/h, then it's impossible that you'll meet a deviating switch where the speed limit is 40 km/h. This safeguard might not have yet been installed in the control center, as it was only in the testing phase...

But I don't know.


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cpd
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:40 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 10):
I think you meant they have succeeded before, the TGV has had plenty of speed records, up to 550Km/h or thereabout.

I have no doubt they can do it, they did 574.8km/h previously. It was that and the previous attempts, along with this being a test train that made me suspicious.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
574 km/h if my memory serves right. Both power cars from that world record are used in regular passenger service, but were modified for the record attempt: Slightly larger wheels, the gaps between the cars were covered to improve the streamline, and the motors had to suffer a significantly higher voltage.

I think that train was actually a special one that was mechanically a prototype for the AGV with motors in each car, rather than just the motor units.

The previous 515km/h record was a shortened but otherwise normal train that was running higher voltage and bigger wheels.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:19 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 8):
Were they trying for a speed record?

No, just testing the new track.

From Le Monde:

"Dans le cas précis de cette nouvelle portion, la rame d’essai devait réaliser 200 allers-retours pour atteindre la vitesse de 352 km/h, « soit 10 % de plus que la vitesse d’exploitation » (320 km/h) entre septembre 2015 et la fin du premier trimestre 2016, indique le gestionnaire de l’infrastructure. Selon SNCF Réseau, l’objectif est d’être attentif « à la qualité de l’infrastructure et au confort futur des voyageurs »."

In the case of this section of track, the test train should have made 200 return journeys, between September and the end of 2016's first quarter, to reach the speed of 352 km/h, or 10% more than the actual speed at which trains will run. The goal was to pay attention to the infrastructure's quality and future travellers' comfort.

http://www.lemonde.fr/societe/articl...es-de-strasbourg_4810064_3224.html
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:02 pm

Unbelievably, there were children aboard that test train.

http://www.sudouest.fr/2015/11/15/10...ts-etaient-a-bord-2186077-4755.php

Speed has been mentioned as possible cause, but nothing confirmed yet.
 
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sun Nov 15, 2015 4:49 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 12):
I think that train was actually a special one that was mechanically a prototype for the AGV with motors in each car, rather than just the motor units.

No, I've personally seen the 574 km/h record powercar in Basel, used on a train serving the route Paris - Dijon - Mulhouse - BSL - ZRH. Should have made a picture of the placard.

The German ICE test train is itself a hodgepodge of different cars: Power cars are ICE 2 (recognicable by their snouts that house the coupling, ICE 1 doesn't have front-end coupling), middle car is ICE 2 with bogies from ICE 3. In the old days, it was a ICE 1 middle car. Only ICE 1 power cars were ever fitted with the smaller Swiss pantographs, and with Swiss safety systems.

I just found something interesting: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_IRIS_320 is the French test train which runs the whole French high-speed route each week for testing safety equipment, tracks, power lines, comms network... whatever. This one is slated to be replaced by a newer TGV testing train (TGV trainset number 4523) in... November 2015. If it is 4523 that is involved in the recent accident, the investigators will probably look into the conversion work done.


David
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PBNZ
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Sun Nov 15, 2015 11:07 pm

This was one of the record holders - saw it in Paris a few years ago
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:07 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 11):
I really wonder about the cause of this accident, especially given that this was a test run.

Well it was exactly at the end of the line, where a (relatively) tight curve connects it to the existing line. That curve obviously has a much lower speed limit that the main high-speed line; they should have slowed down but didn't.

I have a feeling it may have been a problem of switching over from high-speed signalling (TVM430 or ERTMS, not sure what they installed) to conventional signalling, and failed to notice of the end of the line approaching. In this sense the accident seems eerily similar to the one in Santiago de Compostela, where a high-speed section connects back to a conventional line with a tight curve as well. The driver didn't slow down in time and the signalling didn't stop him either - exactly at the crossover point between ERTMS and the conventional signalling.

It would therefore be interesting to know what signalling system the TGV is supposed to operate under at that curve.
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:50 pm

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 18):
It would therefore be interesting to know what signalling system the TGV is supposed to operate under at that curve.

Perhaps, with that rather tight curve when arriving from the high-speed line and joining the classic tracks, ERTMS is in use to keep the train under speed control.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Mon Nov 16, 2015 11:57 pm

Quoting PBNZ (Reply 17):

This is the very power car I've seen in Basel once!

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 18):
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 19):

Is plausible... thanks for these inputs!


David
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cpd
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Tue Nov 17, 2015 12:55 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):

No, I've personally seen the 574 km/h record powercar in Basel, used on a train serving the route Paris - Dijon - Mulhouse - BSL - ZRH. Should have made a picture of the placard.

This is what it was:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_V150_%28High_Speed_Train%29_-_France

The duplex cars were modified along with the rest of it to a degree. The footage of the record attempt was incredible.

[Edited 2015-11-16 16:59:06]
 
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Francoflier
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:43 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 14):
Unbelievably, there were children aboard that test train.

I believe it has been a long standing unofficial practice at SNCF to allow 'civilians', including families and children aboard test trains.
Wasn't the V150 run carrying press and execs as well?

I believe the historical safety of these tests has allowed that 'laissez-faire' to be grandfathered into the modern age.

Well it certainly will stop now...
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WIederling
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Tue Nov 17, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 22):
I believe the historical safety of these tests has allowed that 'laissez-faire' to be grandfathered into the modern age.

The high speed intrumented test trainset TGV Dasye No.744 appears to have all the amenities of "we'll wine and dine you".
Only two or three cars are dedicated to testing purposes and the remainder of the full complement of cars
are set up for representative purposes. ( Nothing to say against this. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Tue Nov 17, 2015 1:32 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 22):
Wasn't the V150 run carrying press and execs as well?

You are right, but after how many tests that proved everything was working well. We'll soon learn why the train derailed but I suspect it could be speed with a high height vehicle entering a tighter curve.
 
WIederling
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:01 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 24):
I suspect it could be speed

Do we know about the number of transits done before the crash?

apropos: how is overspeed handled by the (TGV/SNCF) savety systems?
( only know about forced halt when you enter a busy line segment.)

[Edited 2015-11-17 06:21:34]
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Wed Nov 18, 2015 8:59 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 25):
apropos: how is overspeed handled by the (TGV/SNCF) savety systems?

Under ERTMS L2, speeds are monitored real-time and adjusted automatically if required. The question is whether that part of the line was under ERTMS or something more vintage, as it was the end of the line.

The train driver survived and claimed he was not speeding.
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teme82
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:31 am

Quoting Buyantukhaa (Reply 26):
Under ERTMS L2, speeds are monitored real-time and adjusted automatically if required. The question is whether that part of the line was under ERTMS or something more vintage, as it was the end of the line.

I think that the train was in new track section and it might not have those tracking systems enabled....
Flying high and low
 
WIederling
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Wed Nov 18, 2015 9:55 am

Transitioning from one system to another is regularly a significant problem.

You have to cover all possible handover cases but also
have to see to it that you are not trapped into a "stopped is save" situation.

IMHO a switch over at a halt would be the best/easiest solution.

The commuter magleve train "Magnetbahn" in Berlin had a crash once when
one trainset entered the terminal station at an excessive speed ( and hung
half way out the rear end of the station.)
Cause was a hack to enable noise measurements. nobody wanted to get wet
so the equipment was setup in the roofed over part of the track.
But the programmed speed limiting profile would not allow the desired speed.
So a helpful semicompetent person hacked this parameter in the manual drivecontrol.
He did not know about signed and unsigned numbers and overwrote it
with a negative value. Internal logic caused the train to speed up in the station
instead of braking to a halt.
voila: http://www.berliner-verkehrsseiten.d...n/Geschichte/carstenlau0248vf8.jpg
via:
http://www.berliner-verkehrsseiten.d.../m-bahn/Geschichte/geschichte.html
The Pravda story shown there is a bit more benign.

[Edited 2015-11-18 02:11:24]
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Thu Nov 19, 2015 12:05 pm

As I thought speed is the reason the derailment.

The TGV began to slow 1km too late and thus entered the curve at 265km/h instead of 176km/h.

http://www.20minutes.fr/strasbourg/1...e-freinage-tardif-origine-accident

The Justice is also questioning the presence of children on board that test train.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/actualite-fra...r-la-presence-d-enfants-a-bord.php
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:05 pm

The interim report has been published.

http://www.sncf.com/ressources/rappo..._la_lgv_ee_le_14_novembre_2015.pdf

The gist of it:
- The train was at 243 km/h, while at the accident location the maximum testing speed is 176 km/h (meaning a speed limit of 160 km/h in regular service, +10% safety margin). Because the train was testing the maximum speed plus 10% safety margin, all safety devices were inactive.
- The speed at which the wheels climb up the rails, leading to a derailing, was calculated to be between 220 and 240 km/h.
- The time between the point where the train should have slowed down and the time the TGV actually began to brake was 10.8 seconds.


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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:40 pm

Frankly, while reading the report and watching the photos, I had the impression of reading the report of a landing accident.

With the speed and forces involved, I guess it's a miracle that only 11 people out of 52 died in that accident.
 
cpd
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:13 am

The photos on page 22 are shocking. The thing is absolutely ripped to shreds. It is incredible that more people didn't die given the scale of the devastation. It's like looking at an aircraft accident.
 
WIederling
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 29):
presence of children on board that test train

and 7 instead of an allowed 4 persons in the drivers cab.
Busily chatting away ?
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Francoflier
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 8:27 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 31):
I had the impression of reading the report of a landing accident.
Quoting WIederling (Reply 33):
and 7 instead of an allowed 4 persons in the drivers cab.
Busily chatting away ?

It's almost as if the rail industry is painfully working its way up safety standards the way the aviation industry did a couple of decades back.
The similarities to past aircraft accidents are eerie...

Let's hope the lessons will be assimilated so that these people did not die in vain.
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:54 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 34):

Yes, you can seriously neglect procedures... and knowledge of them is fading, especially with privately operating engine drivers. State railways rent personnel from private contractors, as they can be "fired" on very short notice. You don't have to do long-term personnel planning.

I've just read an investigation report of a serious mishap on the Swiss railways. It was plain shocking.

- a railroad construction company wants to move a some coaches with one of their shunting engines. By accident, they order a normal train route, but not a shunting one - the train number was xxxxx, but not xxxxxR as it should have been.
- the shunting engine was not equipped with any safety system. In order to operate such one, two qualified drivers must be in the cab, not one, as it was the case.
- the lone engine driver had a learner's permit, and so he was qualified for shunting only.
- you have normal signals and shunting signals - both are relevant in normal ops. But while shunting, you disobey normal signals, and watch out for the shunting ones. But as the normal signals were green, it signalled to the driver that his train was normally operating, but not shunting. He should have stopped and phoned for a clarification.
- on the way, his train had overspeed almost all time.
- he ran over a closed shunting signal (these are not tied to any safety system anyway). After stopping the train, he moved it back without phoning with the controllers first.

In such cases I'm not so sure if abolishing the death penalty was the right thing to do...   


David
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WIederling
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 35):
In such cases I'm not so sure if abolishing the death penalty was the right thing to do...

Think of it as "evolution in action" ( Larry Niven )  
Murphy is an optimist
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:37 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 34):
It's almost as if the rail industry is painfully working its way up safety standards the way the aviation industry did a couple of decades back.

Particularly with high-speed trains. That accident clearly shows what can happen.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 34):
The similarities to past aircraft accidents are eerie...

Indeed.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 35):
I've just read an investigation report of a serious mishap on the Swiss railways. It was plain shocking.

Wow, sounds crazy. This coming from train land and its reputation.

One day, once the lemon will be completely squashed in the name of efficiency and competition, we may end up with something really really bad. Thanks to politicians.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: TGV Train Derails Near French City Of Strasbourg

Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:10 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 36):
Think of it as "evolution in action" ( Larry Niven )

Sadly (or luckily), nobody was injured. No damage at all. But the amount of errors is hair-rising. In real accidents, much less errors have lead to severe damage...

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 37):
Wow, sounds crazy. This coming from train land and its reputation.

One day, once the lemon will be completely squashed in the name of efficiency and competition, we may end up with something really really bad. Thanks to politicians.

One company trains engine drivers still for 18 months (much of it is simply learning by doing under the auspices of an experienced driver), while others train them for 6 months. Both is legal. Both succeed at the same exams. But this is really a disaster waiting to happen...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down

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