Credit Cards With Chips

Max Q · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:31 am

In the US we are finally catching up with the rest of the world by introducing microchips on more and more credit cards.

Personally I like this, its more secure and is far more reliable than the old 'swipe' system. my AMEX card seems to stop
swiping reliably within a couple of months of getting a new one.

In comparison I haven't had an issue with the chip being misread once after inserting.

I saw an article today that said some people are avoiding stores that use this new technology, not really sure why, as I said, I think its an advance.

What do you think ?

DocLightning · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:49 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
my AMEX card seems to stop
swiping reliably within a couple of months of getting a new one.

OMG, I know, right? It's very pretty how the stripe is the same gold or silver as the card, but it wears off in NO TIME. AmEx cards in particular.

My issue is that while the chips in the cards are now common enough, even major stores are not using their chip readers. Worse, some have them but haven't even bothered to turn them on yet. I know that liability for fraud has been turned over to the seller now but they are taking their sweet time in switching.

It was silly that we went to Chip-and-Signature in the US rather than Chip-and-PIN (how much harder would that have been?) but at least we have chips now.

bgm · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:52 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
What do you think ?

I think it's incredibly dumb that they did institute a PIN with the chip.

The thing I really dislike is having my card out of my sight. That's when it can be skimmed. Even without a PIN, why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then? Retailers and restaurants have had to spend $$$ on these new machines, yet they aren't portable? Really?

... as per usual, a half-assed attempt.

scamp · Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):

It was silly that we went to Chip-and-Signature in the US rather than Chip-and-PIN (how much harder would that have been?) but at least we have chips now.

It remains to be seen how many small businesses will want to invest in the new card readers. I don't know how much the chip-and-pin machines cost, but I understand that was part of the reason why the US is so behind the rest of the world with respect to these. Small businesses don't want to have to buy the compatible readers.

bgm · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:08 am

Quoting scamp (Reply 3):
Small businesses don't want to have to buy the compatible readers.

Penny wise, pound foolish. As of October they are liable for any fraud and not the card issuer.

The new EMV terminal is a few hundred dollars tops. Definitely worth it IMO.

TheFlyingDisk · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:33 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
Retailers and restaurants have had to spend $$$ on these new machines, yet they aren't portable? Really?

Quoting scamp (Reply 3):
I don't know how much the chip-and-pin machines cost

Surprisingly you can get a portable credit card terminal for only $370 on Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/vx680-Wireless...l-Reader-Contactless/dp/B0093I9AKG

So why aren't merchants buying this?

[Edited 2015-11-30 21:33:54]

[Edited 2015-11-30 21:34:51]

coolian2 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:52 am

I took my chip card to the US. When I got home I couldn't use most ATMs because the mag strip was stuff.

Chip still worked a treat.

Mortyman · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:55 am

In Norway you can soon use your mobilephone to pay. You just swipe it over a screen ... The card with a chip has been here for several years now. The banks says it's much safer.

seb146 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:03 am

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7):
In Norway you can soon use your mobilephone to pay.

Both Apple and Android based phones have this in the United States. I don't care for it and don't use it.

As far as the chip cards, makes no difference to me. I still buy stuff because my card works. As long as my card works, I don't care. The one thing that I do check for is to make sure the PIN pad and terminal are secure when I buy gas with a card.

My only gripe is the chip cards seem to take longer to process.

VapourTrails · Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:18 am

I really like the chip cards. I have found it much more reliable, and robust too as far as the physical integrity of the thing goes. Never had any problems so far. Had mine for some years now here, lost count, last decade? I haven't seen a swipe card around since?

I still use cash too. Old traditions die hard. Makes my statement shorter to read.

I also use cash selectively like at service stations.

Business like trades, carry a mobile card chip reader machine with them, so convenient for all.

[Edited 2015-11-30 23:25:42]

Kiwirob · Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:29 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):

I think it's incredibly dumb that they did institute a PIN with the chip.

They don't that's daft.

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then?

Standard in Norway, along with mobile units for taxis, really gets up my date when I can't use a card in a taxi.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 7):
The banks says it's much safer.

But the near field technology isn't, a friend of mine lost his wallet, the scumbag who found it used his card until he ran out of cash, took about 30 minutes, they still need to have a pin number with this as well, it's dangerous without it.

nws2002 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:58 am

My only annoyance with the chip is that it takes forever. In the past you would swipe the card while the cashier was scanning items and be ready to sign when they were done. Now you have to leave your card in the machine and wait until they total the sale and then wait for it do whatever it is doing before it tells you to remove the card. Then you're fumbling to put the card away while the cashier is trying to hand you the receipt and your items. It just throws off the flow and I don't use the chip reader unless the card reader forces me to. So far that has only happened at Walmart.

CPH-R · Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:06 am

Down here, Danish banks have started issuing credit cards with NFC technology, where you don't even have to enter the PIN code, as long as you're not spending more than 200 DKK. Above that, it's chip & PIN as per usual.

JJJ · Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:25 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
Standard in Norway, along with mobile units for taxis, really gets up my date when I can't use a card in a taxi.

Pretty much everywhere but the US.

You only have to get up to pay if a small restaurant has a single terminal and is low on battery, charging (happened to me a couple times).

Stealthz · Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:52 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
The thing I really dislike is having my card out of my sight. That's when it can be skimmed. Even without a PIN, why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then?

I spent 5 weeks this past Northern Spring, crossing Europe from the Bosporos to the Atlantic, I stayed in private hotels in regional Turkey, dined in elegant restaurants in Istanbul, crossed the continent ate and drank in back street bars in Romania, 5 star eatery in Budapest, wine bars and trattoria in Italy and chic cafes and brasseries in Paris.
No one ever took my CC from me, anywhere I went they brought the machines to me and ATM's would always communicate in English(as would most public transport ticketing systems.. and often their in service announcements).
North America(and for the purposes of this thread that includes Australia) can be so backward!

moo · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:04 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 12):
Down here, Danish banks have started issuing credit cards with NFC technology, where you don't even have to enter the PIN code, as long as you're not spending more than 200 DKK. Above that, it's chip & PIN as per usual.

Yup, had that in the UK for several years now, works brilliantly for smaller purchases (currently up to £30). As its treated as "card holder not verified", there is no risk to yourself either, as any fraudulent transactions done via tap-n-pay is the card issuer and merchants liability, not yours.

scbriml · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:27 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
The thing I really dislike is having my card out of my sight. That's when it can be skimmed. Even without a PIN, why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then?

Wow, I can't remember the last time a shop or restaurant tried to take my card away to process it. If they tried it now, I'd insist on paying at the register myself.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 12):
Down here, Danish banks have started issuing credit cards with NFC technology, where you don't even have to enter the PIN code, as long as you're not spending more than 200 DKK

Just 200DKK? That's less than £19. They just increased the contactless payment limit in the UK to £30.

JJJ · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:32 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Just 200DKK? That's less than £19. They just increased the contactless payment limit in the UK to £3

It's 20€ around here.

Aesma · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:46 am

The chip card was a French invention (used for decades here) so that's why the US didn't go with it, or at least that's the story we're told !

scbriml · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:48 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
The chip card was a French invention (used for decades here) so that's why the US didn't go with it, or at least that's the story we're told !

Damn those pesky French for making our lives easier!

moo · Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:12 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 16):
Wow, I can't remember the last time a shop or restaurant tried to take my card away to process it. If they tried it now, I'd insist on paying at the register myself.

Had that happen several times when I was in the states last month, it was quite disconcerting...

Stealthz · Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:59 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
so that's why the US didn't go with it,

Ah, the US- Francophobia strikes again.
Australian defence contractor develops a significant MRAP personnel carrier, achieves significant export success and excels in competitive evaluation for US defence forces and achieves multi billion $ sales
..Oh no it doesn't.. ADI is majority owned by Thales of France so US will not buy!!

Aeroflot777 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:09 am

There is a lot of information about chip cards discussed in this thread about two months ago:

The American EMV Liability Shift - October 1 (by 1337Delta764 Sep 28 2015 in Non Aviation)

Nice that the US is trying to finally catch up to the rest of the world, but they still half-assed the effort by instituting Chip and Sig instead of Chip and Pin.

IMissPiedmont · Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:29 am

How is it more secure? You still put your card in a machine and then sign a screen. The only difference is that it takes three times longer. If, as has been mentioned, we had to enter a PIN, it would be a useful change.

Kiwirob · Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 12):
Down here, Danish banks have started issuing credit cards with NFC technology, where you don't even have to enter the PIN code, as long as you're not spending more than 200 DKK. Above that, it's chip & PIN as per usual.

It's also utterly insecure, someone can take your card and spend your cash without needing a pin.

JJJ · Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:46 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
It's also utterly insecure, someone can take your card and spend your cash without needing a pin.

The one time I made two NFC purchases in a row below the PIN limit in within minutes of each other I got an automated text from my bank telling me about it just in case.

moo · Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:48 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 23):
How is it more secure? You still put your card in a machine and then sign a screen. The only difference is that it takes three times longer. If, as has been mentioned, we had to enter a PIN, it would be a useful change.

Its more secure because the chip in the card securely signs the transaction with a cryptographic signature of its own - your signature is not needed. In chip-and-pin, the pin code is actively used in the cryptographic signing, meaning it has a purpose. In chip-and-signature, your signature has to merely pass a cursory check by the till operator, and is not used in the electronic authentication.

The pin acts as a verification method at the point of sale - in general, security should be based around at least two of the golden three things: "something you have", "something you know", "something you are". Chip and pin fulfils two of those things in a strong sense (you have a card and you know the pin), chip and signature fills one strongly (you have the card) and one very very weakly (the signature is on the back of the card, so it can be copied).

This means that any use of a chip is more secure than swiping the card, as the magnetic stripe insecurely presents the same information for every transaction, and the chip presents different information for each and every transaction - this electronic signature can be checked by the issuing bank to ensure that the correct card is being used and the card being presented isnt a fake cloned card.

While it is possible to clone a chip card, its several orders of magnitude harder than cloning a mag stripe, and if you throw the use of the pin into the mix, a chip-and-pin card is again much harder to clone than a chip-and-signature card.

lapper · Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:01 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
It's also utterly insecure, someone can take your card and spend your cash without needing a pin.

Whereas in the US you can sign for your purchase without any ID being checked or the signature being matched to the card...

moo · Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:30 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
It's also utterly insecure, someone can take your card and spend your cash without needing a pin.

As I said above, its treated as cardholder not verified, so its the merchant and card issuer liability and not yours. Any such transactions and you can simply let your card issuer know and they will credit your account back the same day.

scbriml · Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:15 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
It's also utterly insecure, someone can take your card and spend your cash without needing a pin.

As long as you report the loss of the card promptly, they're not spending your money.

One of my daughters had her purse stolen in London a few weeks ago and the thief had a jolly time up and down Oxford St using the contactless payment cards. The loss was reported to the police and bank in less than an hour and all money was refunded the next day. Absolutely no issue. Basically, the banks see chip and pin as significantly less risky than a signature.

I always used to shocked in the US when merchants would return my credit card before I'd even signed the slip. They invariably never checked the signature.

Flighty · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:16 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Basically, the banks see chip and pin as significantly less risky than a signature.

Less risky but also a lot less spending (how many Pins can YOU remember?), more stranded people, more customer service headaches. This costs banks more than the fraud does.

StarAC17 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:57 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
The thing I really dislike is having my card out of my sight. That's when it can be skimmed. Even without a PIN, why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then? Retailers and restaurants have had to spend $$$ on these new machines, yet they aren't portable? Really?

Any restaurant I go to the terminal is now wireless and the server brings it over and you verify the amount and enter your pin. The only time my card is in their hands is for them to put the card in the terminal. If I have to go up to a cash register to pay and its the same process.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
It's also utterly insecure, someone can take your card and spend your cash without needing a pin.

They have had this for a while not (Mastercard's paypass and Visa's paywave). In Canada it's capped at $50 or $100 depending on the issuing bank and the option is available to turn it off. You are also protected like if the card is lost or stolen by reporting is ASAP, the bank eats the costs as a cost of doing business. The convenience factor makes up for any possible losses.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 23):
How is it more secure? You still put your card in a machine and then sign a screen. The only difference is that it takes three times longer. If, as has been mentioned, we had to enter a PIN, it would be a useful change.

IIRC the signal/encoding on microchips is far more complicated than the magnetic strip. What I did find odd in my last few visits to the US is that many of the merchant terminals have the chip reader (they are universal products you can see anywhere in the world) and not using it when a chip card is presented. Why wouldn't it default to have the chip feature working automatically and have the mag strip as backup option and as the banks slowly have the chip cards its an easy transition.

1337Delta764 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:02 pm

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 23):
How is it more secure? You still put your card in a machine and then sign a screen. The only difference is that it takes three times longer. If, as has been mentioned, we had to enter a PIN, it would be a useful change.

Quoting moo (Reply 26):
Its more secure because the chip in the card securely signs the transaction with a cryptographic signature of its own - your signature is not needed. In chip-and-pin, the pin code is actively used in the cryptographic signing, meaning it has a purpose. In chip-and-signature, your signature has to merely pass a cursory check by the till operator, and is not used in the electronic authentication.

The pin acts as a verification method at the point of sale - in general, security should be based around at least two of the golden three things: "something you have", "something you know", "something you are". Chip and pin fulfils two of those things in a strong sense (you have a card and you know the pin), chip and signature fills one strongly (you have the card) and one very very weakly (the signature is on the back of the card, so it can be copied).

This means that any use of a chip is more secure than swiping the card, as the magnetic stripe insecurely presents the same information for every transaction, and the chip presents different information for each and every transaction - this electronic signature can be checked by the issuing bank to ensure that the correct card is being used and the card being presented isnt a fake cloned card.

While it is possible to clone a chip card, its several orders of magnitude harder than cloning a mag stripe, and if you throw the use of the pin into the mix, a chip-and-pin card is again much harder to clone than a chip-and-signature card.

Fraud caused by card cloning, as well as data breaches, is much larger than fraud caused by physically stolen cards. In the recent U.S. data breaches of major retailers, it wouldn't have made any difference if the chip cards were chip-and-signature or chip-and-PIN; both methods would have made the stolen information useless to the hackers, unlike swiped cards.

[Edited 2015-12-01 10:02:56]

GrahamHill · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:03 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 14):
North America(and for the purposes of this thread that includes Australia) can be so backward!

In Canada, the chip card took its time to come, but eventually got there. Now all shops, restaurants, supermarkets have chip card readers. So, by North America, you can exclude the Northermost part of it

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
The chip card was a French invention (used for decades here) so that's why the US didn't go with it, or at least that's the story we're told !

I don't think it's because it was French specifically. I think the US have a problem adopting any technology coming from outside their country!

(correct me if I'm wrong)

scbriml · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:15 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Less risky but also a lot less spending (how many Pins can YOU remember?)

Let's see some figures to support the claim that card spending is down since the introduction of chip+PIN. I have three bank/credit cards that have PINs, I can easily remember the three different PINs.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
This costs banks more than the fraud does.

Again, I'd really like to see the numbers behind that claim. Call me a cynic, but no bank is going to implement a system that increases their costs (be it by increased fraud or increased support costs).

StarAC17 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:44 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
I don't think it's because it was French specifically. I think the US have a problem adopting any technology coming from outside their country!

This being A.net Fly by Wire on commercial aircraft comes to mine

,

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Less risky but also a lot less spending (how many Pins can YOU remember?), more stranded people, more customer service headaches. This costs banks more than the fraud does.

How many credit cards do you have?

I have two and a debit card and two of them have the same pin number and one has another and you can have the same pin for all cards as you are not supposed to tell anyone what your pin is.

It's very easy to remember 2 pin numbers.

moo · Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:57 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Less risky but also a lot less spending (how many Pins can YOU remember?), more stranded people, more customer service headaches. This costs banks more than the fraud does.

I have five cards with five pins - if I wanted, I can change all the cards to the same pin at any ATM if I wanted.

If you forget your pin, you can request a reminder be sent to your home at any ATM, telephone automated service or bank website - no bank will offer anything else over the phone.

bgm · Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:24 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
how many Pins can YOU remember?

Five, and that's not counting passwords for websites, etc. Are you honestly saying that Americans have such poor memories that remembering a 4 digit PIN is beneath them? Seriously?

Poor argument, try again.

Ken777 · Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:20 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
even major stores are not using their chip readers

I think it depends on the software installed. When I forget the chip at Walmart the terminal tells me to insert it and rejects the swipe. A lot of stores that have been hacked big time (like Target and Home Depot) are using the chip

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Both Apple and Android based phones have this in the United States. I don't care for it and don't use it.

I like the iPhone approach because it requires a finger print or thumb print - far safer than a PIN or signature. The iPhone was also an early user of using token characters instead of names and account numbers. The wife is getting a 6s as soon as I can figure out which carrier is the least expensive for my 5 lines.

Quoting Lapper (Reply 27):
Whereas in the US you can sign for your purchase without any ID being checked or the signature being matched to the card...

I've seen several people who write "See ID" in the signature space. Too many clerks simply look for a signature - and tell you if you need to sign the back of your card.

moo · Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:48 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
I like the iPhone approach because it requires a finger print or thumb print - far safer than a PIN or signature. The iPhone was also an early user of using token characters instead of names and account numbers. The wife is getting a 6s as soon as I can figure out which carrier is the least expensive for my 5 lines.

Thumb and finger print readers are actually trivial to defeat, and Apple Pay is based entirely on NFC tap-n-pay technology which has already been in wide use in the EU for several years (my cards have had it for 4 or 5 years here in the UK).

Flighty · Wed Dec 02, 2015 1:50 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):

You are saying the banks are NOT doing what makes them the most money? Go consult for them. The burden of proof will be on you not me. Europe is a different environment.

About pins, I am projecting my own problems onto people in general. I was also pretty stranded in Schilphol this past year not knowing the pin for my credit card. Had to pay cash for train ticket, not the end of the world but do I think most Americans have this together? With their rotating set of 8-10 cards? Not really. Old ladies and impostors will be calling customer service 24/7. If it helps, in my opinion American credit cards will *never* go to mandatory pin.

bgm · Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:33 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 40):
About pins, I am projecting my own problems onto people in general. I was also pretty stranded in Schilphol this past year not knowing the pin for my credit card. Had to pay cash for train ticket, not the end of the world but do I think most Americans have this together? With their rotating set of 8-10 cards? Not really. Old ladies and impostors will be calling customer service 24/7. If it helps, in my opinion American credit cards will *never* go to mandatory pin.

Seriously, who has 8-10 credit cards? If you have that many, learning a 4-digit PIN is the least of your problems.

The rest of the world can manage to learn it, why oh why can Americans not memorize this elusive 4 digit number? It's not like every card has to be different, you can change your PIN at an ATM.

No excuse for laziness.

IMissPiedmont · Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:52 am

Quoting moo (Reply 26):

But, it is no more secure in reality, it just shifts risk to the merchant. That makes great sense to me. I have written in every one of the signature spots on the back of my cards "please ask for ID". Only once has a store complied.

rfields5421 · Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:16 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
The thing I really dislike is having my card out of my sight. That's when it can be skimmed. Even without a PIN, why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then? Retailers and restaurants have had to spend $$$ on these new machines, yet they aren't portable? Really?

In March 2001 we went to Paris France. Nowhere, in stores, in restaurants, was our card out of sight. Every little tiny restaurant had portable readers/ sales machines.

That was FOURTEEN YEARS AGO.. and I have yet to see those used in the US anywhere.

Braniff747SP · Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:21 am

Chip cards are infinitely more reliable and secure. Europe's been on chip-and-pin for years, and we're doing a half-assed job of catching up with chip-and-sign.

The problem is that the new card readers aren't cheap -- it's a substantial cost for small businesses, and an even larger one for big companies.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 42):
That makes great sense to me. I have written in every one of the signature spots on the back of my cards "please ask for ID".

Vast majority of people don't bother. If they ask for ID, it's likely due to company policy.

coolian2 · Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:32 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):

Less risky but also a lot less spending (how many Pins can YOU remember?), more stranded people, more customer service headaches. This costs banks more than the fraud does.

It does not, by a HUGE margin.

DocLightning · Wed Dec 02, 2015 3:56 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 40):
8-10 Cards

Why do you have so many cards? I have four.

*AmEx Platinum (which I rarely use and have more for the benefits).
*AmEx Gold (which is my primary method of payment)
*Chase Sapphire Preferred Visa (When AmEx is not accepted)
*My ATM card (which has a pin)

I have a ton of store membership cards (Safeway, BevMo, Costco, etc.) and my gym membership and stuff, but only four cards that can be used for money.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
don't think it's because it was French specifically. I think the US have a problem adopting any technology coming from outside their country!

Explain "outside" my country. I do not understand this concept. Are you saying there is an "outside" the USA? That's absurd.

N1120A · Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:19 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
I think it's incredibly dumb that they did institute a PIN with the chip.

The security positives of Chip and PIN are 95% about the chip.

Quoting bgm (Reply 4):
As of October they are liable for any fraud and not the card issuer.

Actually, it depends. If the card has a chip and they don't have or don't attempt to use a chip reader, then they are liable. If they use the chip reader, then there is no liability shift.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
The chip card was a French invention (used for decades here) so that's why the US didn't go with it, or at least that's the story we're told !

That has nothing to do with it. It was all about cost.

JBirdAV8r · Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It was silly that we went to Chip-and-Signature in the US rather than Chip-and-PIN (how much harder would that have been?) but at least we have chips now.

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
I think it's incredibly dumb that they did institute a PIN with the chip.

Aeroflot777 · Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:33 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
how many Pins can YOU remember?

Are you seriously saying you can't remember a range of PIN numbers?

Not to mention that many cards have the ability to change their PINs, so you can consolidate your spread into less of a hassle for your brain.

I currently have 17 cards total. 5 cards from Europe (from 3 different countries and each card with a different PIN) and 12 US-based cards (2 Debit and 10 Credit).

I use about 7 of these cards on a regular basis, daily to every other day and never have issues remembering my numbers. It's really not that hard. So this is not a good excuse, especially considering the average Joe and Jane have a max of 2-3 cards.

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