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moo
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:38 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 42):
But, it is no more secure in reality, it just shifts risk to the merchant.

Neither Chip and Pin or Chip and Signature shifts the liability to the merchant - and writing "ask for ID" on the back doesn't help one little bit in cases where the merchant doesn't ever handle the card (which is 100% of the time in Europe, or should be - never let a merchant handle your card) or where the card is cloned.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 47):
The security positives of Chip and PIN are 95% about the chip.

Actually, the pin makes up a lot more of that percentage - the chip contains the encryption seed, and the pin adds a further factor into the authentication routine, so the token the card issuer receives must match the product of both the known encryption seed and the users pin. No pin, and the card issuer won't receive the correct token - the chip on its own is useless.

With chip and signature, there is no further factor, so your cards chip can be cloned (which is much harder than cloning the mag stripe, but still doable) and used on its own - the card issuer will receive the correct token as its simply based on the encryption seed, no modifier involved.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:51 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 40):
You are saying the banks are NOT doing what makes them the most money?

No, I'm saying exactly that.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 40):
The burden of proof will be on you not me.

You're the one claiming spending is down with chip+pin and that the fraud costs are lower than the cost of customer support. So where's the proof?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:29 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
My issue is that while the chips in the cards are now common enough, even major stores are not using their chip readers. Worse, some have them but haven't even bothered to turn them on yet. I know that liability for fraud has been turned over to the seller now but they are taking their sweet time in switching.

It's the holiday shopping season. Stores don't want to run the risk of terminals failing. My local supermarket said the reason their chip mechanism doesn't work yet is because they want it to be a slower time of year to deal with any sort of errors that may pop up. After all, it has been a smooth transition but that doesn't mean it'll be reliable all the time and the last thing a store wants is angry customers who have stood in line only to tell them "move to another terminal, we have issues here".

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
Retailers and restaurants have had to spend $$$ on these new machines, yet they aren't portable?

There are some that are portable, but your local diner doesn't have to worry about a data breach so they're more lax in that aspect. There are restaurants that have the portable one. Don't remember where and which restaurant it was, but I remember a waiter bringing the machine to our table and charging each card on the spot, within eyesight.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 11):
Now you have to leave your card in the machine and wait until they total the sale and then wait for it do whatever it is doing before it tells you to remove the card.

Which is why you insert it when the total is brought up, not before. Takes about 5 seconds tops.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Less risky but also a lot less spending

My three major credit cards all have the chip and I have yet to insert a pin for any of them in a purchase. Besides, you can always equate a pin to a word. Master Card, for example...MACA = 6222 (look up your phone's dial numbers) or something like that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 46):
*AmEx Platinum (which I rarely use and have more for the benefits).
*AmEx Gold (which is my primary method of payment)

Just curious...why have two levels of the same card? It's like me having the Delta Gold and Delta Platinum cards: Gold for purchases; platinum for benefits.
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moo
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:44 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 52):
It's the holiday shopping season. Stores don't want to run the risk of terminals failing. My local supermarket said the reason their chip mechanism doesn't work yet is because they want it to be a slower time of year to deal with any sort of errors that may pop up.

Why didn't they do it earlier in the year then? Its not like this has snuck up on anyone, its been in the pipeline for several years.
 
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:13 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
My only gripe is the chip cards seem to take longer to process.

That is my major issue with it.

Other than that, I got a new debit card with the chip in it, a week later it was cloned, the only place it had been used was the banks ATM machine, the one thing about thieves, they really are a resourceful group.
 
mham001
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:49 pm

Another *advancement* that is nothing but a pain. it takes longer, the terminals are difficult to handle while pushing the card in the small slot and then the card has to sit there for some minutes, giving the customer the opportunity to forget it is there.

If it is more secure, then good but let's get over this "it's done in Europe, it must be better" nonsense. It is a pain in the ass.
 
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moo
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:57 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 55):
If it is more secure, then good but let's get over this "it's done in Europe, it must be better" nonsense. It is a pain in the ass.

I'm sure if you are willing to accept all liability for any fraudulent use of your card, your card issuer and every merchant would be happy to continue to allow you to use the mag stripe.

Just don't try and claim any money back when someone buys a 70" OLED 4K TV on your card...

The reason it takes so long is because the validation token is generated on the chip itself.
 
SaschaYHZ
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:01 pm

We've had Chip & Pin here in Canada for a while now, and it works well. I've never really had much issue with it being slow, usually approved in pretty well a second or 2.
 
coolian2
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:05 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 54):
Other than that, I got a new debit card with the chip in it, a week later it was cloned, the only place it had been used was the banks ATM machine, the one thing about thieves, they really are a resourceful group.

ATMs still have the mag stripe reader. That's where your details would have been compromised - as the card passed through a device planted over where you put the card in.
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coolian2
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:09 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 55):
iving the customer the opportunity to forget it is there

If this is something you actually forget, your card security can't be that important to you.

Is it impossible to hold onto your card while it's in the reader? Don't answer that because I know it is.
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bgm
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:14 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 55):
Another *advancement* that is nothing but a pain. it takes longer, the terminals are difficult to handle while pushing the card in the small slot and then the card has to sit there for some minutes, giving the customer the opportunity to forget it is there.

Minutes? 5-10 seconds max. Enough with the dramatics please.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 55):
If it is more secure, then good but let's get over this "it's done in Europe, it must be better" nonsense. It is a pain in the ass.

It IS more secure, despite your butthurt over Europe. 

It's also done this way in many other countries outside of Europe. Rather, the US is the anomaly (as with so many other things).
 
tommy1808
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:36 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 56):

The reason it takes so long is because the validation token is generated on the chip itself.

Maybe US banks just opted for a few cent cheaper, much slower chip than the ones used here?
Never noticed chip was slow, but rather swiping as slow, especially when you had to swipe 3 or 4 times...

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 58):
ATMs still have the mag stripe reader. That's where your details would have been compromised - as the card passed through a device planted over where you put the card in.

And if cards didn't have magnetic stripes anymore, that copying wouldn't work anymore, the chip can't be copied on the fly. So, even if they skim your pin, without the chip it is useless.

Best regards
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coolian2
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:27 pm

The place where I get my hair cut processes chip transactions as fast as contactless ones. If they can do it...

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 61):
And if cards didn't have magnetic stripes anymore, that copying wouldn't work anymore, the chip can't be copied on the fly. So, even if they skim your pin, without the chip it is useless.

Exactly   just means keep shielding your PIN no matter what.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:19 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
The thing I really dislike is having my card out of my sight. That's when it can be skimmed. Even without a PIN, why can't they bring the machine to the table in a restaurant and process it there and then? Retailers and restaurants have had to spend $$$ on these new machines, yet they aren't portable? Really?

Retailers in Europe have a choice whether to have fixed readers, portable ones for use  in restaurants or even mobile ones for outdoor events. They don't cost much, rental fees for a single terminal are no more than £15 per month. 


[quote=Flighty,reply=30]
Less risky but also a lot less spending (how many Pins can YOU remember?), more stranded people, more customer service headaches. This costs banks more than the fraud does.

There was no drop off at all in consumer spending when this was introduced in the UK.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 52):
It's the holiday shopping season. Stores don't want to run the risk of terminals failing. My local supermarket said the reason their chip mechanism doesn't work yet is because they want it to be a slower time of year to deal with any sort of errors that may pop up. After all, it has been a smooth transition but that doesn't mean it'll be reliable all the time and the last thing a store wants is angry customers who have stood in line only to tell them "move to another terminal, we have issues here".

Terminals failing ? If the US were the 1st to introduce this teething problems would be expected, it is however mature technology that has been in use elsewhere for a decade or more.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 55):
Another *advancement* that is nothing but a pain. it takes longer, the terminals are difficult to handle while pushing the card in the small slot and then the card has to sit there for some minutes, giving the customer the opportunity to forget it is there.

Minutes ? usually a second or two at most. The only time it commonly takes longer is when spending is at a peak (Saturday afternoons can be a bit longer) or when using mobile terminals with poor phone signals.

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 58):

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 54):
Other than that, I got a new debit card with the chip in it, a week later it was cloned, the only place it had been used was the banks ATM machine, the one thing about thieves, they really are a resourceful group.

ATMs still have the mag stripe reader. That's where your details would have been compromised - as the card passed through a device planted over where you put the card in.

They need the PIN as well, there has been a few instances where criminals have fixed skimming devices to the front of ATM's and focused cameras onto them in order to get the information. . Just check that nothing has been clipped onto the front and you will be ok.
 
N1120A
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 10:44 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 50):
Actually, the pin makes up a lot more of that percentage - the chip contains the encryption seed, and the pin adds a further factor into the authentication routine, so the token the card issuer receives must match the product of both the known encryption seed and the users pin. No pin, and the card issuer won't receive the correct token - the chip on its own is useless.
Quoting moo (Reply 50):
With chip and signature, there is no further factor, so your cards chip can be cloned (which is much harder than cloning the mag stripe, but still doable) and used on its own - the card issuer will receive the correct token as its simply based on the encryption seed, no modifier involved.

Cloning Chips is nearly impossible, which is why the liability shift was created against merchants.
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Bongodog1964
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:20 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 64):

Quoting moo (Reply 50):
With chip and signature, there is no further factor, so your cards chip can be cloned (which is much harder than cloning the mag stripe, but still doable) and used on its own - the card issuer will receive the correct token as its simply based on the encryption seed, no modifier involved.

Cloning Chips is nearly impossible, which is why the liability shift was created against merchants.

In the early days of chip and pin, we had a few scenarios publicised about how chips could be cloned, the circumstances however were very complex, and no one mentions it any more which suggests that in practical terms it is not financially viable for the criminal.
The security of chip and pin is shown by the fact that stolen wallets and purses used to be found in the UK with the cash taken, but the cards still present following its introduction. Of course with the arrival of contactless cards for small purchases the situation has changed again. These cards are good for £30 on every transaction until they are cancelled.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:33 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 63):
Terminals failing ? If the US were the 1st to introduce this teething problems would be expected, it is however mature technology that has been in use elsewhere for a decade or more.

Don't shoot the messenger. That's what clerks in the store have said.

Quoting moo (Reply 53):
Why didn't they do it earlier in the year then? Its not like this has snuck up on anyone, its been in the pipeline for several years.

Beats me, but then again, the mentality is that until it's crunch time, there's no need to make a move. Again, I don't think my local supermarket chain needs to be concerned about a data breach so it didn't have a need to do it. But with more cards switching to chip, terminals that accept only stripes will probably be the next target. Of course, a store could opt out completely and just go back to the original processing:

"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
scamp
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:15 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 66):
Of course, a store could opt out completely and just go back to the original processing:

I think, but don't quote me on this, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that the card sales processing company issues those plates to the lower left of that machine. It fits above the little dials that imprints the date. It's needed to process the sale. If I am right, the processors may refuse to issue the plate (for back-up) if the merchant won't comply to the new technology.

If not, then security becomes an issue because merchants used to get booklets every month with card numbers that were no longer valid. The person processing the sale looked for the card number in the booklet to determine whether or not to accept the card. Since all sales are now processed electronically, I would be willing to bet $20.00 that those booklets aren't issued anymore. Go the old fashioned way and take the risk of accepting an invalid card.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting scamp (Reply 67):
I think, but don't quote me on this, and someone correct me if I am wrong, that the card sales processing company issues those plates to the lower left of that machine.

BTW, I should have placed a smiley at the end...I was being sarcastic, though I've seen stores that still use them.

That being said, there are cards with which this technology won't work. My Chase card, for example, has numbers on one side but you can't tell from the other side.

[Edited 2015-12-04 03:35:13]
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moo
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Fri Dec 04, 2015 11:48 am

Quoting scamp (Reply 67):

Payments made through those systems are entirely the liability of the merchant, not the bank. If someone disputes a payment made via the carbon paper copy method, its instantly rolled back and the onus is on the merchant to prove it was a valid payment.

They are far from common in the UK these days, but I did have a couple of payments taken by small time retailers at an airshow a couple of years back - one of which tried to put the same payment through twice and we caught it on our bank statement. The payment was rolled back by the bank without question.

[Edited 2015-12-04 03:49:25]
 
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Pellegrine
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:19 am

Quoting bgm (Reply 2):
I think it's incredibly dumb that they did institute a PIN with the chip.

Exactly. I always used to run my debit card as credit so I would not have to enter the pin (and risk a hacker one day accessing it from the store's CC batch).

The alternative is to ONLY use credit cards - which have stronger protections - or another strategy. I do like keeping a debit card for certain reasons, so I've established two checking accounts that are linked per bank. Have little money in the debit card one, have most of the money in the "only cheque/wire" one. With online/apps now you can easily instantly transfer funds between them anywhere in the world.
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scbriml
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 8:56 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 70):
I always used to run my debit card as credit so I would not have to enter the pin (and risk a hacker one day accessing it from the store's CC batch).

That's not an option in the UK. All cards are chip and PIN, whether they're credit or debit.
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moo
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:37 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 71):
That's not an option in the UK. All cards are chip and PIN, whether they're credit or debit.

Bear in mind that the US has a very odd system where a card can be attached to both a credit account and a current (or checking) account and you can choose what account to use per transaction.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:40 am

Quoting moo (Reply 72):
Bear in mind that the US has a very odd system where a card can be attached to both a credit account and a current (or checking) account and you can choose what account to use per transaction.

You may not know the answer to this, but is it different to Australia, when I use my card I get to choose to use Savings, Cheque or Credit account.
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Airstud
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:00 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 72):
Bear in mind that the US has a very odd system where a card can be attached to both a credit account and a current (or checking) account and you can choose what account to use per transaction.

I've never seen this in the U.S. Checking (current?) accounts can be accessed by what used to be called a "check card," which has a Visa or MasterCard logo and appears to the merchant to be a credit card on that network, but actually withdraws the money from the cardholder's checking account. That same card can also function as an ATM/debit card, where the transaction is PIN-based and routed on an ATM/POS network like Maestro or (snort) Interlink. (heh) In either of those cases though, the money comes out of the same account.

It is possible for a customer to have checking, savings, and possibly a line of credit at the same bank and those might all be accessed via the same card at an ATM, but not at a point-of-sale.

I have checking and savings accounts at USBank, as well as a Visa Platinum credit card issued by them. The credit card is a separate physical card. Can't use that line o' credit at a store by swiping the ATM/check card; nope, can't be done.
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Mortyman
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 55):
Another *advancement* that is nothing but a pain. it takes longer, the terminals are difficult to handle while pushing the card in the small slot and then the card has to sit there for some minutes, giving the customer the opportunity to forget it is there.

5 seconds max

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 66):
Of course, a store could opt out completely and just go back to the original processing:

Haven't seen one of these in proabably 25 years ...


In Norway stores insist that you use chip and pin. Magnetic strip is only used if nothing else works. It is considered too risky. Often the stores will insist you try the chip again. Often it's just some dirt on i that has to be Wied off.
 
StarAC17
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:54 pm

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 54):

Other than that, I got a new debit card with the chip in it, a week later it was cloned, the only place it had been used was the banks ATM machine, the one thing about thieves, they really are a resourceful group.

The ATM's still read the mag strip.

Quoting bgm (Reply 60):
It's also done this way in many other countries outside of Europe. Rather, the US is the anomaly (as with so many other things).

I cannot think of another country (including developing ones) that still has swipe and sign in major places other than the US. Yes there might be some exceptions for small retailers but most places are chip and pin.
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tommy1808
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sun Dec 06, 2015 11:38 am

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 76):

I cannot think of another country (including developing ones) that still has swipe and sign in major places other than the US. Yes there might be some exceptions for small retailers but most places are chip and pin.

Taiwan. May be using chip and signature, but I can't recall ever having to type in my pin other than at ATMs.

Best regards
Thomas
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teme82
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sun Dec 06, 2015 2:58 pm

Here in Finland we have contactless payment for purchases bellow 25€. Chip and pin is used above that and in the ATM's. That's why I don't carry cash with me anymore.
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wingman
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sun Dec 06, 2015 5:23 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
The chip card was a French invention (used for decades here) so that's why the US didn't go with it, or at least that's the story we're told !

I criticize my own country when the criticism is due, and I take it these comments are at least moderately in jest, but both are off the mark. US issuers and merchants have been arguing for Chip technology since the mid 90s, but neither side wanted to pay for the infrastructure upgrade. The two primary payment platforms are themselves American-based (Visa Europe being the new anomaly of course), so US firms were of course instrumental in the development and deployment of the Chip-based payment platform. Really it was just down to cost and finger-pointing. I left the business before the transition took effect so I don't know for sure who is bearing the transition cost today.

In terms of the actual US experience, it's not good right now. There is no PIN and that's a key element in the security of the Chip transaction process elsewhere. And you might be surprised but Target is an early adopter of Chip (due to their massive fraud experience two years ago), and it does take about 15-30 seconds for the Chip transaction to go through. I just did one yesterday and it's frustrating with Christmas shoppers waiting in line. My guess is that Visa, MC and the many other layers and players in the transaction flow have not ironed out all the kinks.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:13 pm

Quoting teme82 (Reply 78):
That's why I don't carry cash with me anymore.

Strangely, in the last two weeks I've been in an independent pub and coffee shop both of which were cash only. Much to my embarrassment in the case of the pub as I didn't see the sign until after I'd ordered my round.   
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:56 am

Quoting moo (Reply 72):
Quoting stealthz (Reply 73):

Australia technically has the same thing as the USA where you can have multiple accounts linked to one card, but I have never personally used such a card. I'm pretty certain CBA don't issue such cards, whereas I know that ANZ do. It still prompts you to select cheque, savings or credit every time regardless.


And I'm amused by how low contactless payment limits are in other countries. It's $100 in Australia.
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XAM2175
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 81):
I'm pretty certain CBA don't issue such cards

I've a CBA debit MasterCard drawn on two different accounts - savings or credit draw from one and cheque from the other.
 
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mad99
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:59 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
In the US we are finally catching up with the rest of the world by introducing microchips on more and more credit cards.

I'm just back from the USA and i was never asked for a PIN, always swip and sign a receipt. Just like always
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:32 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 79):
There is no PIN and that's a key element in the security of the Chip transaction process elsewhere.

The PIN requirement would make no difference whatsoever when it comes to data breaches and card cloning. The only time it matters is with physically stolen cards, which ranks far behind cloned cards when it comes to fraud in the United States.
 
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moo
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 5:55 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 84):

The PIN requirement would make no difference whatsoever when it comes to data breaches and card cloning. The only time it matters is with physically stolen cards, which ranks far behind cloned cards when it comes to fraud in the United States

Actually, if the authentication token does not match the product of the token issued in your card and your pin, then the transaction should be declined by the clearing house. So to successfully clone a chip and pin card you need both the chip and the pin.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:07 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 84):
which ranks far behind cloned cards when it comes to fraud in the United States.

Cloned magnetic stripe cards, cloning chip cards is a whole different ball game...

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Thomas
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zckls04
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Mon Dec 07, 2015 8:03 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 79):
And you might be surprised but Target is an early adopter of Chip (due to their massive fraud experience two years ago), and it does take about 15-30 seconds for the Chip transaction to go through. I just did one yesterday and it's frustrating with Christmas shoppers waiting in line. My guess is that Visa, MC and the many other layers and players in the transaction flow have not ironed out all the kinks.

I was paying in Home Depot recently. If you have a chip card you have to swipe it, then insert it when that fails! You can't just insert straight away. Really frustrating.
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skywaymanaz
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:37 pm

I did my first chip transaction Monday and it was very slow compared to a swipe. It took 15-30 seconds to approve. I'm not sure if that is the merchant or the first time the chip was ever used but it was slow. Hopefully that is not typical and will be faster in the future.
 
diverted
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting skywaymanaz (Reply 88):

I did my first chip transaction Monday and it was very slow compared to a swipe. It took 15-30 seconds to approve. I'm not sure if that is the merchant or the first time the chip was ever used but it was slow. Hopefully that is not typical and will be faster in the future.

Strange-I've never encountered that here; mind you we have a chip and pin system. Payments under $20(Might be $25) just tap your card, approval takes about half a second. Anything over that, insert chip, hit ok, punch in your pin, and again, usually half a second to approve. Some merchants (Read-small local mom and pop shop) might still be using a dialup connection, in which case, it may take 5 seconds to approve, but all in all, probably still quicker than swipe, wait for a receipt to print, sign, hand it back to the cashier.
 
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larshjort
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:50 pm

Initially when he chip and pin was introduced in Denmark the transactions were slow, maybe 10-15 seconds. After a couple of months they mde some changes and now the transactions are as fast as the swipe ones.

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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:22 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 90):
Initially when he chip and pin was introduced in Denmark the transactions were slow, maybe 10-15 seconds. After a couple of months they mde some changes and now the transactions are as fast as the swipe ones.

And a recent update to the terminals means I can now insert my card and enter the pin, while the cashier is still scanning in the last few items. All I have to do then is wait for the total to come up and accept it, and I can almost immediately withdraw my card again.
 
Virginblue4
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:32 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 39):

You get five attempts to pay with your fingerprint. If you fail, you have no choice but to enter your iPhones password. Fingerprints are very hard to crack, especially when you only have five chances!

And although it is based on contactless technology, it's more secure. Not only because of the way the transaction is authenticated (fingerprint) but because of the tokenisation. None of your details are transmitted to the merchant unlike with standard contactless payments.
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tommy1808
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Thu Dec 17, 2015 6:00 am

Quoting virginblue4 (Reply 92):
You get five attempts to pay with your fingerprint.

So, just enough to try out a whole hand..

Quoting virginblue4 (Reply 92):
Fingerprints are very hard to crack,

Fingerprints are by far the easiest authentication to hack. It it is literally child's play ....
Fingerprints are better than no security at all, but that is about the best you can say about them. In theory you need phone and fingerprint to make a payment, but in fact the chances of finding a useable fingerprint on the phone after lifting it, is not that bad.

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Thomas
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caoimhin
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Thu Dec 17, 2015 7:16 pm

First, chips are not slower than magnetic strips. They're also far more resistant to wear and tear that plague magnetic strips.

I don't live in the US, and have used both systems (all three, if you include chip/sign). I do indeed prefer chip & pin, because I don't like touching store pens. At least I can tap the pin pad with my knuckle.

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 12):
Down here, Danish banks have started issuing credit cards with NFC technology,

This is also widely deployed in the US. My American bank cards have "Visa Pay Wave", which is essentially an NFC chip (in addition to the EMV chip and the magnetic strip. They are accepted at almost every retailer, but nobody really knows how to use them because there was never a coherent PR campaign on the subject. Likewise for Apple Pay/Android. These technologies are more widely accepted than consumers realise. It's a PR blunder more than a technological one.

I think many US banks are counting on NFC leapfrogging EMV anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the norm in 10 years.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
The chip card was a French invention (used for decades here) so that's why the US didn't go with it, or at least that's the story we're told !

Nonsense. There are economic and logistical reasons for not shifting sooner. It being a French invention has nothing to do with it. Aside from "Freedom Fries" 12 years ago, I don't see any evidence of any adversarial (even constructively adversarial) treatment of France. Americans like France and aside from the occasional ribbing, it's admiration and respect. That ribbing is no different than the constant needling of many people in France and other countries against the US. So, I have to assume it's all in good spirit.

One key reason the technology was slow to be implemented was the large number of merchants to whom it needed to be deployed. It's an overwhelming task, and many merchants don't like being told "you must do X, or else."

What's more, many of the calculations by the banks showed that THIS type of fraud (credit card fraud resulting from card theft) was LESS serious than the increasingly common mass data theft crimes (Target, Home Depot, etc.). Those crimes are harder to manage, and are the target of the greatest efforts by credit card companies.

Quoting Lapper (Reply 27):
Whereas in the US you can sign for your purchase without any ID being checked or the signature being matched to the card...

Maybe. Some people choose to write "ASK FOR ID" on the signature panel. That works for many.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 33):
I don't think it's because it was French specifically. I think the US have a problem adopting any technology coming from outside their country!

It's hard when so many of the most important things were invented in the US. *Note: this is a joke. Please don't go bananas.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 44):
Chip cards are infinitely more reliable and secure. Europe's been on chip-and-pin for years, and we're doing a half-assed job of catching up with chip-and-sign.

As I said earlier, it's because our priorities may be different. NFC changed the game a little bit. Let's see what it looks like in 10 years.
 
Virginblue4
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Thu Dec 17, 2015 9:39 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 93):

I've read and seen a lot of videos on fingerprint lifting etc. By all means, its possible, maybe even easy, but to get enough of a print to allow you to make a payment while in a shop seems basically impossible to me.

On top of all of this if you lose or have your iPhone stolen, you can wipe your cards remotely. Because of all this, I do not currently believe there is a more secure way of paying (even if they do manage to crack your fingerprint).
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:02 pm

Quoting caoimhin (Reply 94):
Maybe. Some people choose to write "ASK FOR ID" on the signature panel. That works for many.

I've been writing this on all my cards for at least 8 years and have only been asked to see my ID about 4-5 times in that entire time period, all while using my cards multiple times daily.

No one cares to check.
 
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
It was silly that we went to Chip-and-Signature in the US rather than Chip-and-PIN (how much harder would that have been?) but at least we have chips now.

It's so embarrassing to have to always tell the restaurant/shop etc that I will need to sign the receipt when I'm outside of the USA. I wish I could get my US credit card set up to require a PIN...
 
coolian2
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:44 pm

I'll repeat it's cheap terminals that cause slow transactions. The place where I get my hair cut completes as fast as a swiped transaction
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nws2002
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RE: Credit Cards With Chips

Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:52 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 98):
I'll repeat it's cheap terminals that cause slow transactions. The place where I get my hair cut completes as fast as a swiped transaction

I mentioned this earlier, but I think for many (myself included) it is at least a perception that it is slower even if the processing takes the same amount of time. The main reason for this is you have to leave the card inserted in the terminal while you wait for the total or wait for the total to appear before you insert your card. This is vastly different compared with mag stripes where you can swipe the card at any point in the transaction and when the total appears all you do is sign and possible approve the total by pressing yes or ok. With the chip card it just changes the flow of the transaction a bit from what we're used to.

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