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lesfalls
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:35 pm

First of all 1. You'll probably think I'm nuts 2. If you have any hatred to say against me then just please don't post so here goes my question:

With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?
 
ArmitageShanks
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:44 pm

Lets just cut the thread short right here and say its all America's fault, the USA sucks, its people suck and we should thank them for messing everything up.

That'll cut out at least 200 replies.
 
hh65man
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:05 pm

Let me know if I need to start packing things up...... O wait a minute I am no where near Europe..... Pheww...
 
Bongodog1964
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:09 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):

First of all 1. You'll probably think I'm nuts 2. If you have any hatred to say against me then just please don't post so here goes my question:

With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

Yes - I think you are nuts. Shall I start a thread "when will the US fall due to immigration from Mexico" you'll then realise how daft your question is.

The real question is not when will Europe end up at war, as we've moved way beyond that, two world wars on our soil is enough thank you, but will uncontrolled immigration bring to an end firstly the Schengen free borders scheme, and secondly the end to the European Union. As it stands at present anyone gaining asylum in Europe can eventually move to any Country they so desire, even the UK which is presently taking every attempt possible to repel boarders at Calais.

The UK will be having a referendum on leaving the EU in 2017, until the hordes started being shown on the News walking across Europe heading westwards my guess was that the UK would vote to remain, as it stands at present I feel that the vote will be to leave.
 
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AirPacific747
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:11 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
First of all 1. You'll probably think I'm nuts 2. If you have any hatred to say against me then just please don't post so here goes my question:

With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

The way things are going right now, it won't be too long. Thanks to Sweden and Germany in particular, we have a serious problem that will not go away, it'll only get worse and worse. With the current rate of immigrants in to Sweden, it'll take less than 20 years for the Swedes to be in the minority in their own country. But of course the problem is the same across Europe, just at a slightly slower pace. Our politicians are destroying Europe because they don't want to put away the political correctness.

We need to start active border control at all borders across Europe for all kinds of transportation.

We need to temporarily stop taking in more asylum seekers.

We need to force future asylum seekers to seek asylum in UN camps close to the war zones, that way we can control exactly who gets in to Europe.

Remove all financial reasons to go to Europe so that only the real asylum seekers get in and leave out all the financially motivated immigrants.

[Edited 2015-12-15 13:16:36]
 
LittleFokker
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:30 pm

How can Europe "fall" when there isn't even a Europe to begin with? And by that I mean that Europe is merely an abstract concept, a collection of sovereign nations with a loose association. Now if you think the immigration issue will lead to the collapse of the European Union, that's a discussion (not much of one though, since it's pretty unlikely). Europe will still be there, people will continue to live there.

I vote for locking this thread - the original supposition is too vague.
 
Ken777
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 4):
With the current rate of immigrants in to Sweden, it'll take less than 20 years for the Swedes to be in the minority in their own country.

This is a concern for a lot of countries. It's also unique in Europe because there are major differences in cultures and languages in a very small geographic area compares to, say, the US.

Maybe the European will start military training of males so they can to in and kill off ISIS and make it safe to return. That could return a million refugees almost as fast as they arrived.
 
aloges
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:34 pm

Quoting LittleFokker (Reply 5):
I vote for locking this thread - the original supposition is too vague.

Absolutely. This question:

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
The End Of Europe?

can be understood as anything from "Could there even be one?" to "Woo hoo, can't wait for that one!"

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 4):
We need to force future asylum seekers to seek asylum in UN camps close to the war zones, that way we can control exactly who gets in to Europe.

A decent start might be to actually properly fund the organisation which is tasked with providing for them: Funding shortage leaves Syrian refugees in danger of missing vital support
 
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flyingturtle
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:49 pm

Since years we need a Marshall plan that drastically cuts unemployment in Italy, Spain, Portugal and Greece. We also need several kilotons of money to fund the integration and education of all Syrians and Iraqis that arrive in Europe. We can do it. We can profit from it. But it's going to be hard, especially when governments don't want to raise taxes. It's a recipe for disaster.


David
 
jpetekyxmd80
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 9:54 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):

With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

I have no idea what that even means.
 
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pvjin
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:03 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

I don't except to see a full scale war of any kind. I see two paths forward; either European countries growing some balls and fighting against rise of islamism in Europe, or them giving up to demands of Islamists. The EU might collapse, but Europe in some form will keep going on. However I wouldn't hold very high hopes when it comes to survival of democracy and freedom in Europe, things look pretty bad in that sector.

Quoting aloges (Reply 7):
A decent start might be to actually properly fund the organisation which is tasked with providing for them: Funding shortage leaves Syrian refugees in danger of missing vital support

I agree. In long term it will be much more cost effective to fund refugee camps outside Europe than not to fund them and then deal with resulting massive refugee wave to Europe.
 
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Zkpilot
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:21 pm

Europe will be unrecognisable in 20 years time. Hardly anyone there is having babies while immigrants pour in from Africa, Middle East, Asia and South America and they are having a lot more offspring than Europeans are.

This is not just happening in Europe but also Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand.
Then you look at countries like China where less than 1% of the population is Caucasian. China is very quick to point out anything that they consider to be mildly adverse to China but are very protective and are racist themselves.

I saw a comment the other day that I thought was quite interesting:

"People leave their crappy countries to move to Europe because life is much nicer there and then proceed to try to convert their new country to be like their crappy country!"
 
 
aloges
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:35 pm

Nice to see the doom-and-gloomers out in force yet again... while you're all swooning ("We told you so!") over the imminent demise of what you think is Europe, I'd like to point out that Europe's own record with regard to the rest of the world isn't exactly stellar. The reason why it isn't stellar is the very thing you lot are displaying here: white supremacism.
 
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Aesma
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:42 pm

Europe is more than 500 millions people. A couple millions immigrants will not change us.

Besides migrations have happened here since the beginnings of the Human species, it's nothing new.

I wouldn't exist without them, as my 4 grandparents were born in 4 different places : Tunisia, Italy, France, and Vietnam. I'm definitely French, though.
 
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pvjin
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:10 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):
I'd like to point out that Europe's own record with regard to the rest of the world isn't exactly stellar. The reason why it isn't stellar is the very thing you lot are displaying here: white supremacism.

I don't see how white supremacism is exactly relevant here. For a while we Europeans simply had a technological advantage over rest of the world and naturally we used it, race had nothing to do with it.
 
aloges
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:24 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
I don't see how white supremacism is exactly relevant here.

I can certainly believe that.

However, those who aren't closing their eyes might be seeing it in your and other people's efforts to remind us that, supposedly, all those pesky brown and black people from - Eek! - the Middle East and - OMG! - Africa are bringing nothing but trouble and turmoil to the shores of Europe.
 
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pvjin
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:28 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
I can certainly believe that.

However, those who aren't closing their eyes might be seeing it in your and other people's efforts to remind us that, supposedly, all those pesky brown and black people from - Eek! - the Middle East and - OMG! - Africa are bringing nothing but trouble and turmoil to the shores of Europe.

I don't give a damn about anyone's skin colour. Culture and religion are things with some relevancy, not race. The rise of Islam is my concern, not increase of non-white people in Europe. People of all races are the same, the culture and social environment we grow up in create the differences between us.
 
Osubuckeyes
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:35 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 13):

Nice to see the doom-and-gloomers out in force yet again... while you're all swooning ("We told you so!") over the imminent demise of what you think is Europe

Would you dispute that declining birth rates and increasing unemploymed/impoverished areas of immigrants in European cities is not a problem? Would you dispute that the EU and its governments haven't really done much of anything to address immigration policies?
 
aloges
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:41 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
The rise of Islam is my concern, not increase of non-white people in Europe.

Yeeeah... some older posts of yours point in a different direction, i.e. you're "concerned" with both, but I can't be bothered to try my luck with the search function at this time of night.

Anyway, opposition to freedom of religion has proved itself to be just as deadly - if not worse - as racism, so you're not doing yourself any favours here.
 
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AirPacific747
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:46 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 14):

Europe is more than 500 millions people. A couple millions immigrants will not change us.

First you should deduct the part of Europe that refuses to take in any noticeable amount of immigrants and you are now left with maybe 300 million in Western Europe. A few million every year will in 100 years make a huge difference. With a booming population in Africa and other parts of the world, the amount of immigrants is not going to decrease any time soon.
 
aloges
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 18):
Would you dispute that declining birth rates and increasing unemploymed/impoverished areas of immigrants in European cities is not a problem?

Yes, I do dispute that declining birth rates and increasing poverty are not problems.

Quoting osubuckeyes (Reply 18):
Would you dispute that the EU and its governments haven't really done much of anything to address immigration policies?

No, I don't dispute that many European politicians haven't done a lot about immigration. Most of them kept ignoring the issue until it literally appeared at our borders. They also ignore many of the issues that turn people into migrants. i.e. the "push factors".
 
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pvjin
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:05 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
Yeeeah... some older posts of yours point in a different direction, i.e. you're "concerned" with both, but I can't be bothered to try my luck with the search function at this time of night.

I really can't remember ever being concerned by race.

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
Anyway, opposition to freedom of religion has proved itself to be just as deadly - if not worse - as racism, so you're not doing yourself any favours here.

In the end I see the core of all abrahmic religions as something about as tolerant as the Nazism advocated by Adolf Hitler. I think it's in best interests of all civilized people to oppose the spread of all Abrahamic religions, atheism and agnosticism are they forward.
 
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AirPacific747
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:16 am

To all of you who think immigration is the right answer to stop world poverty in the long run, I will encourage you to watch this video:

http://youtu.be/LPjzfGChGlE
 
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777Jet
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Uncontrolled immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:42 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

The fall of Europe as it has been known to date has already started and IMHO this trend is well beyond the point of no return.

I expect that Islam will be the majority religion in several EU countries within a few decades.

However, the only type of conflict I expect to see resulting from the change is the emergence of more extreme right-wing / Neo-Nazi groups.

Whilst they will be able to do very little other than criminal acts of violence against particulars they don't like, these groups will grow in numbers and even attract many lefties who realize that their soft stance towards immigration and refugees over the years was the start of this.

Things could however get nasty on the streets and mass acts of violence and suicide attacks might be so common that they stop becoming news worthy.

In the worst case, Muslims will control everything and the EU will be re-named the IU - the Islamic Union  
Quoting hh65man (Reply 2):
Let me know if I need to start packing things up...... O wait a minute I am no where near Europe..... Pheww...

  

Thank God for that!

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
Shall I start a thread "when will the US fall due to immigration from Mexico" you'll then realise how daft your question is.

What a ridiculous analogy.

I lived in TX for over 7 years and I can understand part of your point, but Mexicans do not pose the same threat as Islamic extremists nor do they have the same desire to take over the world and set up caliphates.

Mexicans are responsible for a lot of crime in certain US states, but the crimes most of them commit as the same as those being committed by other Americans.

They are not suicide bombers and they value life a lot more than Islamic extremists.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 4):
The way things are going right now, it won't be too long. Thanks to Sweden and Germany in particular, we have a serious problem that will not go away, it'll only get worse and worse.

  
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:15 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3):
I feel that the vote will be to leave.

I think they will too and I think this Migrant crisis really showed the achilles heal of the European Union. No one would or could control their borders and it seemed like the EU was trying to force some states to take in refugees even though they didn't want them. I would never tolerate that.

Arabizing Europe is really an unfortunate thing IMO. You're bringing in Islam too so its actually a double whammy. You are bringing in the tribal Arab mentality as well as the islamic culture of hijabs, halal meats etc.etc. But lets be fair, France in particular was big on ousting Assad and is letting in lots of Syrians so this is self imposed.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:04 am

As long as they keep tolerating and even appeasing those who actively promote violence against the people, the tolerance and the lifestyle they have in Europe it will not end well. We are increasingly in the position where we can no longer say anything even remotely critical of the Islamic faith without fear of reprisal and there are many (Muslims and liberals) who want it to be made illegal to do "Blaspheme". That is a travesty.caused by the apologist so called "liberals" who put the blame solely down to imperial foreign policy and who automatically close the discussion and debate on issues because they don't want to cause offence to anyone. They ignore the many passages within the Quran (and Bible too btw) which are explicit and concrete with their meaning and calling for actions that are not tolerated in a civilised, rational and inclusive society. We can stand up against extremist biblical verse?? why not Islamic verse as well?

Islamophobia is not a thing, nor is Christianophobia or Agnostophobia. Islam is not a race which one has no choice of - they are a religion which everyone in the free world has the right to choose or discard. The Islamic world is undergoing a reformation same as the Christian world did 500 years ago. They need to work out the good bits to keep the literal meaning and discard the rest (and anyone who refuses to update/modernise).

Europe will not survive as a bastion for human and civil rights if it doesn not actively reject the bad bits of Islam as they already have done with Christianity. When the human and civil rights and lifestyle goes so will the prosperity.
Free and Happy people are productive, stable and generate wealth. Unhappy, stifled, restricted people turn septic (and often religious) and impoverished so does their society.and Government.

I am for immigration for skills and specific jobs. I am against this kind of uncontrolled influx - It's a short term solution to a long term problem. It makes liberals feel like they are doing something valuable and important with their lives by promoting a cause, but ultimately it doesn't change the fact that although they are escaping chaos and murder, they are also bringing the same ideologies with them that caused the chaos to begin with. Until they honestly discuss this Europe will suffer far more than it will gain from this.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:30 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 9):
Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
With all the immigration(it's getting a lot worse) in Europe and the problems arising when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

I have no idea what that even means.

It means people who pretend, just to be politically correct are a laughing stock. Others seemed to have no problem comprehending the question and answering it.

Without creating a duplicate post, I will state my opinion matches 777jet, as in reply 23:

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 23):
The fall of Europe as it has been known to date has already started and IMHO this trend is well beyond the point of no return.

I expect that Islam will be the majority religion in several EU countries within a few decades.

However, the only type of conflict I expect to see resulting from the change is the emergence of more extreme right-wing / Neo-Nazi groups.

Whilst they will be able to do very little other than criminal acts of violence against particulars they don't like, these groups will grow in numbers and even attract many lefties who realize that their soft stance towards immigration and refugees over the years was the start of this.

Things could however get nasty on the streets and mass acts of violence and suicide attacks might be so common that they stop becoming news worthy.

LD4
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:06 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
....when do you expect to see the fall of Europe and the war to start?

There won't be any war. We will somehow avoid that.

But especially in Sweden, to a minor degree in Germany, we see houses going up in flames when they are rumored to be prepared for immigrants. That is how civil wars begin.

So changes are needed.

It is little comfort being a Dane, geographically sandwiched between Europe's two most irresponsible countries, Sweden and Germany, getting into a state of panic.

I hope that we will survive that. During the last two months the Danish government has made emergency laws like never before in preparation for whatever Sweden and Germany might suddenly do. We haven't been closer to sort of "state of emergency" since WW2.

For now Schengen is dead. We can still cross a border Schengen wise, but we have no way to know whether we can come back home without our passport tomorrow.
 
JJJ
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:14 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 23):
I expect that Islam will be the majority religion in several EU countries within a few decades.

Most muslim immigrants embrace Atheism (or a very relaxed form of Islam, including Alcohol and pork) already on the second generation.

The problem is the latest immigrant wave (and by latest I mean for the last 15-20 years as opposed to old colonial migration to the UK-France) is for the most part coming from largely uneducated rural areas. Very conservative and very religious, and this delays the process.

But even those struggle to pass their beliefs on to their children.

If you look at the radicalization route of most European-born Jihadis they were almost unanimously born into the Western system. They went to school, smoked, drank, did drugs, listened to very haram rap or latin music and their interests usually were football, pot, girls and going out at night. They did not have a noticeable religious identity until something snaps at some point in their lives when they find they've squandered their youth, have no decent job prospects and blame the system instead of themselves.

More often than not they radicalize while serving time for petty crimes (property theft, drugs, etc.), others radicalize on their own through the internet and then set up small cells separate from mainstream Muslim communities.
 
aloges
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:41 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 22):
To all of you who think immigration is the right answer to stop world poverty in the long run, I will encourage you to watch this video:

A gumball to represent immigrants in a presentation given by a known anti-immigration campaigner... pass.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 21):
I think it's in best interests of all civilized people to oppose the spread of all Abrahamic religions, atheism and agnosticism are they forward.

That's been tried many times before and what replaced religion wasn't any better. Lots of people want, deperately, to be guided through life by someone or something. If you fight against one such person/ideology, you'll send them racing to embrace another one - which is rarely democracy because democracy is complicated.
 
directorguy
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:58 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Europe is more than 500 millions people. A couple millions immigrants will not change us.

Besides migrations have happened here since the beginnings of the Human species, it's nothing new.

I wouldn't exist without them, as my 4 grandparents were born in 4 different places : Tunisia, Italy, France, and Vietnam. I'm definitely French, though.

Good for you, for taking a step back and realising that human history has essentially been all about migration.

It's actually petty, when you think about it, how the human species have developed complex systems of population control (passports, borders, Schengen and non-Schengen zones). Certainly no other species on this planet have come up with anything so macabre and unnatural.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 28):
Most muslim immigrants embrace Atheism (or a very relaxed form of Islam, including Alcohol and pork) already on the second generation.

The problem is the latest immigrant wave (and by latest I mean for the last 15-20 years as opposed to old colonial migration to the UK-France) is for the most part coming from largely uneducated rural areas. Very conservative and very religious, and this delays the process.

But even those struggle to pass their beliefs on to their children.

If you look at the radicalization route of most European-born Jihadis they were almost unanimously born into the Western system. They went to school, smoked, drank, did drugs, listened to very haram rap or latin music and their interests usually were football, pot, girls and going out at night. They did not have a noticeable religious identity until something snaps at some point in their lives when they find they've squandered their youth, have no decent job prospects and blame the system instead of themselves.

More often than not they radicalize while serving time for petty crimes (property theft, drugs, etc.), others radicalize on their own through the internet and then set up small cells separate from mainstream Muslim communities.

Can I also point out that people from 'conservative', religious, family-oriented backgrounds actually do very well for themselves in Europe. They go to school, get good grades, and as adults work/pay taxes. This is definitely the case in the UK. Children from poor immigrant Muslim/Asian families are more likely to do well than white children from similar socio-economic backgrounds. It is true that some of these people also form their own bubble that are kept separate from mainstream society, but not everyone lives like this.

As you yourself said, the problem isn't actually Islam, but how directionless, unemployed youth decide to take up a radical cause.
 
aloges
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 11:59 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 28):
If you look at the radicalization route of most European-born Jihadis (...) blame the system instead of themselves.

IMHO, it's not necessarily just the system, but also the people who they feel have "wronged" them. When the economy is in the doldrums, lots of people understandably get highly agitated and some of them turn into radicals. It happened in Germany in the late 1920s and early 1930s, so it did in Russia in the 1910s and there are many more examples.

Poorly integrated immigrants and their children seem to be particularly susceptible to layoffs, if they can find jobs in the first place, which is a possible explanation for their susceptibility to radicalisation.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 28):
More often than not they radicalize (...) set up small cells separate from mainstream Muslim communities.

If only more of those "post-enlightenment Westerners" understood that little detail... 
 
aloges
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:07 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
Good for you, for taking a step back and realising that human history has essentially been all about migration.

It's a self-evident truth, isn't it? So self-evident, in fact, that people forget about it.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
It's actually petty, when you think about it, how the human species have developed complex systems of population control (passports, borders, Schengen and non-Schengen zones). Certainly no other species on this planet have come up with anything so macabre and unnatural.

It's completely petty and little more than tribalism, which "we in the West" supposedly eschew. As long as someone's birthplace and parentage can condemn them to lives in abject misery, there will be "economic migrants" - no matter what the xenophobes wish for.

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
As you yourself said, the problem isn't actually Islam, but how directionless, unemployed youth decide to take up a radical cause.

That goes along nicely with an idea of mine and, I suppose, many others: People who have very little to lose can easily end up ready to risk it all. Those who have a lot to lose - don't.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:21 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 29):
That's been tried many times before and what replaced religion wasn't any better. Lots of people want, deperately, to be guided through life by someone or something. If you fight against one such person/ideology, you'll send them racing to embrace another one - which is rarely democracy because democracy is complicated.

Those people should find some rational ideology that would guide them through life, or for once use the brainpower they were given to form their own one. If that's too much to be asked at least for flying spaghetti monster's sake don't pick a religion with inherently violent, hateful and intolerant history, like all Abrahamic religions. There are plenty of way more tolerant and peaceful religions out there, Buddhism is one great example of such.

Quoting aloges (Reply 31):
Poorly integrated immigrants and their children seem to be particularly susceptible to layoffs, if they can find jobs in the first place, which is a possible explanation for their susceptibility to radicalisation.

Certainly, but why become radicalized in a religious way? If this society went suddenly bankrupt and the welfare state collapsed I would much more likely join some radical leftist organization than any religious one. As another and current example, Greece has taken quite a bit of beating in these hard economic times, many people's lives have been ruined. Yet I don't see radical Christians advocating turning Greece into a Christian theocracy with a legal system that is based on the bible? Sure, they have neo nazis, radical lefties and all that stuff, but no radical Christians movements of any significance.

There is a clear lack of secularization among European Muslim communities, they should learn to understand that religion should have no place in the legal system and politics, ever.
 
aloges
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
Those people should find some rational ideology that would guide them through life

Who are you to decide what people should believe in?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
or for once use the brainpower they were given to form their own one.

I do hope you realise how arrogant this sounds.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
If that's too much to be asked at least for flying spaghetti monster's sake don't pick a religion with inherently violent, hateful and intolerant history, like all Abrahamic religions.

I take it you haven't heard of Hindu extremism? Does the caste system sound like a decent way to organise a society?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
There are plenty of way more tolerant and peaceful religions out there, Buddhism is one great example of such.

Take Buddhism too far, mix in a few other things and you end up with Aum Shinrikyo.

My point is this: Whether or not someone turns into a radical does not depend on the ideology they are following (or leading, for that matter). Any idea can be taken too far and whether or not you do so doesn't depend on the title of the book you like to read.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
There is a clear lack of secularization among European Muslim communities

That is a very, very big claim to make on the fly.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 33):
they should learn to understand that religion should have no place in the legal system and politics, ever.

Hey, enough with the arrogance and telling people what to think! You don't get to dictate to people any more than I, or anyone else, do/does.

I for one am quite at ease with the adaptation of "thou shalt not kill" into law. In other words, just because someone put a thing in the Torah/Bible/Quran doesn't mean that thing needs to be excluded from law.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:42 pm

Islam in Germany started in the 17th century, when POWs from the wars with the Ottoman empire ended up here (at first as serfs, but later freed). They were called the "Beutetürken" (Captured Turks), but many of them later converted to Christianity and quite a few made career at the royal courts, as it was back then fashionable to have Turkish servants. At leasrt the Prussian Army used to have a Turkish regiment during the 18th century, based on the Janissaries, the elite regiments of the Ottoman Sultan. Many of these soldiers were Muslims.
This is the background why one finds family names like "Ali" or "Aly" among German families in Berlin.
The first Islamic cemetary in Berlin was opened during the reign of Frederik William III, who donated a piece of land right beside where later Tempelhof Airport would be built, to the Islamic community when the ambassador of the Ottoman Empire at the Prussian court suddenly died while in Berlin. Later another Turkish dignitary was buried there as well. The graves were later relocated to the current cemetary at Columbiadamm, which was used as a cemetary until the 1980s (when it ran out of space). During WW1 Turkish soldiers, who died in Prussia while undergoing training (German and Turkey were Allies during WW1) were buried there as well, hence the former name "Turkish Garrison Cemetary". The former janitor's house was later converted into a small mosque, which is still being used today.

As for the previous post, the "Gastarbeiter" we in West Germany hired from the 1950s to 1970s were mostly uneducated poor from Southern Europe and parts of Northern Africa (e.g. Morrocco). They were hired to do the dirty jobs the Germans thought to be beneath them.
'The biggest number of them were Turks, with many settling in Berlin. Workers from Catholic countries prefered the more Catholic regions of Germany. There were also many nurses hired e.g. from the Philippines, Japan and South Korea, many of whom married German husbands and often, due to their work ethics, rose to high management positions.

As with the Turks, since there was no school for Imams in Germany back then, the old treaty with Turkey stated that mosques would be set up and staffed with Imams sent by the Turkish ministry for religious affairs, which also runs the mosques in Turkey (Turkey back then was a lot more secular. Since Erdogan got into power, there was a roll back. If one looks at old pictures of Turkish Gastarbeiter women from back then, one sees pretty dark haired young women wearing trendy 1960s-1970s clothes, with very few headscarves).
Turkey still sends these Imams, who come here for at maximum 5 years to take over one of the official mosques. The problem is that these iImams in the past haven't been able to speak German and knew practically nothing about life here, which made it impossible for them to guide their often not very well educated, but hardworking congregation through the problems of life here.
Many young Muslims consider these mosques to be something for their grandparents, boring and not connected to life here. I understand that the education of these Imams has changed recently, before they come here, they have to learn the German language and get educated on how Germany is running. It would also help if they would stay here longer.

The result is that the young ones, if they do not turn to atheism, fall for radical preachers like the recently arrested Sven Lau, who preach simple solutions (in a complicated world), and, since they came from a street background themselves, speak the language of the teenagers and young men in their twenties.

Jan
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:46 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
It's actually petty, when you think about it, how the human species have developed complex systems of population control (passports, borders, Schengen and non-Schengen zones). Certainly no other species on this planet have come up with anything so macabre and unnatural

Not true. Lots of animal species protect their territory and it's very unnatural to accept migration in such a huge scale as what is going on right now. If one monkey species got 'invaded' into their territory by another species or even the same species but a different group, there would be fights until one group left.

Migration has always taken place, yes, but not to the extreme extent that seems to be the case now.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 12:48 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Who are you to decide what people should believe in?

I don't get to decide that, however I find people who believe certain things to be at least slightly dumb.

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
I do hope you realise how arrogant this sounds.

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
That is a very, very big claim to make on the fly.

It's painfully evident and plenty of statistic supports it, an example here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...Muslims-want-sharia-law-in-UK.html

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Hey, enough with the arrogance and telling people what to think! You don't get to dictate to people any more than I, or anyone else, do/does.

I for one am quite at ease with the adaptation of "thou shalt not kill" into law. In other words, just because someone put a thing in the Torah/Bible/Quran doesn't mean that thing needs to be excluded from law.

People who push religion into politics and legal systems are the ones trying to dictate over other people's lives, not me. Ensuring the separation of the church and the state allows everyone, including Muslims, to live live they want under common law that is based on reason rather than fairytales. So no stoning of women who were raped, children marrying old men and other such insane nonsense, but otherwise full freedom to practice one's religion.
 
JJJ
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:36 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
So no stoning of women who were raped, children marrying old men and other such insane nonsense, but otherwise full freedom to practice one's religion.

Also no more "it's offensive" BS, when you live in a place with freedom of expression, you need to acknowledge that one's beliefs can be criticized, mocked and laughed at.

It's part of Western culture that nothing is sacred anymore. You don't like something? Don't read/listen/watch it.

As long as no one is calling for the annihilation of group X, which would fall into hate speech, of course.
 
aloges
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
I don't get to decide that, however I find people who believe certain things to be at least slightly dumb.
(...)
People who push religion into politics and legal systems are the ones trying to dictate over other people's lives, not me.

In other words: It's only a problem if other people want to decide what's good and what isn't. If I do it, it's proper.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Ensuring the separation of the church and the state allows everyone, including Muslims, to live live they want under common law that is based on reason rather than fairytales. So no stoning of women who were raped, children marrying old men and other such insane nonsense, but otherwise full freedom to practice one's religion.

If the best you can do is bring up the usual crap about "They want rape victims to be stoned! They marry children!" when you're talking about general principles, you need to check that prejudice against reality.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 1:53 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
In other words: It's only a problem if other people want to decide what's good and what isn't. If I do it, it's proper.

My world view is based on logic and reason, theirs is based on an ancient collection of Middle Eastern fairy tales and myths. That's the difference.

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
If the best you can do is bring up the usual crap about "They want rape victims to be stoned! They marry children!" when you're talking about general principles, you need to check that prejudice against reality.

The reality looks rather grim based on more or less poor human rights situation in nearly all countries where most of Europe's Muslims come from. At least in Finland people from most of those countries (Iraq and Somalia mainly) are also seriously overrepresented in crime statistics.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 12):
white supremacism.

This really burns my bunions, what the hell is wrong with being proud of being white, I'm sick and tired of people saying that white people being proud of being white is akin to being a white supremacist, it's not. White people should not be made to feel guilty about being white, especially when it’s other white people pushing the agenda.

Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
Africa are bringing nothing but trouble and turmoil to the shores of Europe.

That's exactly what is happening today.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 23):
I expect that Islam will be the majority religion in several EU countries within a few decades.

Which ones?


Quoting JJJ (Reply 28):
Most muslim immigrants embrace Atheism (or a very relaxed form of Islam, including Alcohol and pork) already on the second generation.The problem is the latest immigrant wave (and by latest I mean for the last 15-20 years as opposed to old colonial migration to the UK-France) is for the most part coming from largely uneducated rural areas. Very conservative and very religious, and this delays the process.

I disagree it's often the 2nd and 3rd generation which become radicalised, especially males, you even said it yourself in the second part of your post.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 28):
If you look at the radicalization route of most European-born Jihadis they were almost unanimously born into the Western system. They went to school, smoked, drank, did drugs, listened to very haram rap or latin music and their interests usually were football, pot, girls and going out at night. They did not have a noticeable religious identity until something snaps at some point in their lives when they find they've squandered their youth, have no decent job prospects and blame the system instead of themselves.More often than not they radicalize while serving time for petty crimes (property theft, drugs, etc.), others radicalize on their own through the internet and then set up small cells separate from mainstream Muslim communities.
Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
I take it you haven't heard of Hindu extremism? Does the caste system sound like a decent way to organise a society?
Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Take Buddhism too far, mix in a few other things and you end up with Aum Shinrikyo.

Both are localised and not exported to other countries.
 
JJJ
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:03 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 41):
I disagree it's often the 2nd and 3rd generation which become radicalised, especially males, you even said it yourself in the second part of your post.

Both are true. Most (if no all) radicals are 2nd or 3rd generation, but most 2nd and 3rd generation do not radicalise.

Most even become Atheist or non-practising Muslims.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:09 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 40):
My world view is based on logic and reason, theirs is based on an ancient collection of Middle Eastern fairy tales and myths. That's the difference.

to repeat myself:

Quoting aloges (Reply 34):
Hey, enough with the arrogance

---

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 41):
This really burns my bunions, what the hell is wrong with being proud of being white,

It's nonsense to begin with since nobody ever did anything to "achieve" the skin colour they have... except for Michael Jackson perhaps, but that's a different can of worms.

If you don't stop at taking pride in something you were literally given by birth, but go as far as looking down on all people whose skins are different colours, you're a racist. Should it be necessary to explain why this is the case, please see a psychotherapist.
 
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AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 5:35 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 29):
A gumball to represent immigrants in a presentation given by a known anti-immigration campaigner... pass.

Cheap shot. Did you listen to what he had to say or are you just automatically against his message?
 
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MrHMSH
Posts: 2828
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:24 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 29):
A gumball to represent immigrants in a presentation given by a known anti-immigration campaigner... pass.

Are you going to provide a commentary on what he was talking about rather than his methods? I don't see the issue. And actually, each gumball represents 1 million people, not immigrants, because he talks about the people in countries who don't move because they can't: they're too poor. I see a lot of sense in what he says: the issue of poverty (the way I saw the presentation was more about solving poverty than immigration) will not be solved by immigration: you can see from the scale (yes, using gumballs) why that won't happen. The problems that we are starting to see in Europe are only touched on.

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):

If the best you can do is bring up the usual crap about "They want rape victims to be stoned! They marry children!" when you're talking about general principles, you need to check that prejudice against reality.

It's the law in some places (Brunei), and there are not many Islamic countries that are even relatively prosperous and free.


Anyway, my contribution goes thus:

It's known to most of you what my views are: I find religion to be hateful and discriminatory wherever it goes, and given the choice I'd get rid of all religion in a heartbeat. But that's an ideal, and I know it won't ever happen. That said, some religions are better than others, Buddhism from my perspective seems to be the most tolerant even if I don't agree with the beliefs. Christianity has a very inglorious past, but it has got better as time has gone on. Islam has not. It's still bad, and the fact that places are going towards more extreme Islam is worrying. It's worrying for people in those countries who will live closed and secretive lives because the state does not approve of them, and it is passed down onto the general population: this group of people is not right according to Allah, so they don't deserve the same rights.

And this brings me to Europe. I'm not terribly happy if the kind of people who are coming in do not see the same way and are unwilling to change. I'd say that most immigration groups do a lot better at integrating than others. The Chinese have always seemed to fit in well, as have the Indians, white people from former colonies (as you'd expect). But Muslims never seem to do as well. They wear clothing that suggests a desire to be valued by their religiousness, their views are incompatible as discussed and the fact that the religion is used to justify attacks against the countries that have taken them in (some of the recent terrorist attacks were carried out by locally-born Muslims). None of that washes down well with me. It's not uniiversally true, but it clearly does happen and it's not an insignificant minority that hold these views even if it isn't an overall majority.

Now if the immigrants are willing to fully assimilate and adapt, then I have no (halal) beef, I have no reason to, my mistrust is never based on something as shallow as appearance or difference. But as the video above points out, not only does immigration fail to tackle the problem in any meaningful way, it makes it worse. Not good. And then you add the social problems and it just adds up to a big no-no for mass immigration. The problems should be solved at source. And that means the countries themselves have to change, and for that to happen. There has to be reform. Reform doesn't solve, but it helps.

Regards,
Martin
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:28 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 43):
If you don't stop at taking pride in something you were literally given by birth, but go as far as looking down on all people whose skins are different colours, you're a racist.

What a typically PC BS response, so basically I should take no pride in who I am and where I come from, try telling a black person they shouldn't be proud of their heritage, or a Polynesian or Maori, you'd have the snot kicked out of you real quick, but hey it's ok white people aren't allowed to be proud.

Your reply is a such a German response, I really didn't expect anything less, the culture of political correctness has such a grip on Germans that they are consumed by it, you just proved it yet again.
 
AM744
Posts: 1478
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:33 pm

Quoting directorguy (Reply 30):
It's actually petty, when you think about it, how the human species have developed complex systems of population control (passports, borders, Schengen and non-Schengen zones). Certainly no other species on this planet have come up with anything so macabre and unnatural.

Come on. Not even two male domestic cats can get along in the same space.
 
aloges
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 6:58 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 44):
Cheap shot. Did you listen to what he had to say or are you just automatically against his message?

I googled NumbersUSA after his first "point" before continuing to watch the video. The search results provided the necessary info on that organisation, so I didn't waste my time with the video.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 46):
What a typically PC BS response, so basically I should take no pride in who I am and where I come from,

If the colour of your skin, which is the only thing you were talking about, defines who you are and where you are from, those two things are very shallow indeed. Does it?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 46):
try telling a black person they shouldn't be proud of their heritage, or a Polynesian or Maori, you'd have the snot kicked out of you real quick, but hey it's ok white people aren't allowed to be proud.

If either of those people told me they're proud of their achievements, I'd probably ask what those are and have an enjoyable conversation. If they told me that their skin colour defined their identities, I'd ask how on earth that came about. If they told me they felt great pride in it, I'd probably leave.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 46):
Your reply is a such a German response, I really didn't expect anything less, the culture of political correctness has such a grip on Germans that they are consumed by it, you just proved it yet again.

Just out of interest, are you "Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells"?  
 
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AirPacific747
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RE: Uncontrolled Immigration...The End Of Europe?

Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:14 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 48):
I googled NumbersUSA after his first "point" before continuing to watch the video. The search results provided the necessary info on that organisation, so I didn't waste my time with the video.

So did I just now. Please share your findings instead of replying with an arrogant and disrespectful answer that is of no use to the rest of us because I don't see what you mean.

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