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kaitak
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Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:00 am

This is an incredible story ...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35136023

SchoolS (my emphasis on the plural) were closed in Virginia after a row over students being given an exercise in Islamic calligraphy mushroomed, with some profane and offensive calls being made to the school.

The decision to close the schools was, an official said, made without any specific threat and "out of an abundance of caution".

Parents accused the teacher of indoctrination. But why did all schools need to be shut. The parents' (and others') reaction was cited. I actually find this depressing; as one observer said, "fear wins again".

How can people be so ignorant?
 
CPH-R
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:15 am

I doubt there anyone involved in this that will come out looking particularly bright.

Yes, it was an overreaction to claim that writing out the Shahada would be equal to conversion to Islam, as the parent claimed. Then again, looking at her Facebook feed, she appears to be one of those people who like to spout bible verses at any given opportunity.

Yes, whoever came up with the exercise could probably have chosen a better example of Arabic caligraphy, or at least one that wasn't so, shall we say, "in your face".

Yes, the people who began organising protests and sending death threats were freaking morons.

And yes, the school district vastly overreacted in closing all the schools. Then again, the kids probably didn't mind getting a 3-day weekend 
 
kaitak
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:27 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 1):
And yes, the school district vastly overreacted in closing all the schools. Then again, the kids probably didn't mind getting a 3-day weekend

Yes; and ironic it was a Friday - the Islamic holy day!
 
CPH-R
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:40 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 2):
Yes; and ironic it was a Friday - the Islamic holy day!

Well, surely all those newly converted kids needed the day off to find their local mosque for friday prayers  
 
Mir
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:27 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 1):
Yes, whoever came up with the exercise could probably have chosen a better example of Arabic caligraphy, or at least one that wasn't so, shall we say, "in your face".

How is saying "this is the Shahada" anything remotely close to "in your face"? They don't even translate what the Shahada is, other than that it's a statement of faith.

There was nothing wrong with the lesson - anyone who had an objection to it needs to grow up. It's clearly not an attempt to indoctrinate, unless you're an islamophobic bigot. But then the problem is with you, not the lesson.

-Mir
 
aloges
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:32 am

Isn't that very piece of text one of the most commonly found examples of calligraphy? Beats me why you'd freak out over it; if there's anywhere that letters can be just letters, it's a calligraphy class.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:52 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):

How is saying "this is the Shahada" anything remotely close to "in your face"? They don't even translate what the Shahada is, other than that it's a statement of faith.

I do consider the Shahada to be a bit blunt, but fair point about them not translating it.
 
Airstud
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:54 am

Guys, I'm going to be the (so-far) odd man out on this thread. I think the lesson was a bad idea.

The article said school officials said "[t]he lesson was intended to illustrate the complexity of the Arabic language, they said, and not meant to promote any religious system."

The claim that having students write out "There is no god but Allah" is "not meant to promote" a religion is a tough sell.

I'm sure they could have found more benign examples of Arabic calligraphy.
 
WIederling
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
I'm sure they could have found more benign examples of Arabic calligraphy.

This was about calligraphy and not about religion.
Why should anyone jump through hoops just to mollify some overbearing religious fanatics that can
only accept looking at things they have beat flat with their bible.
( anyway, there is low chance they won't find issue with your "harmless" choice in the next interation. Endless fruitless game.)

The demand you see is the basic tenet of fascism. Everything has to be subsumed under the "Single True Objective".

Do not submit to fascists of any persuation.
 
Mir
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:12 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 7):
The claim that having students write out "There is no god but Allah" is "not meant to promote" a religion is a tough sell.

It's actually a very easy sell. Saying "this is what Muslims believe" is not promoting Islam.

-Mir
 
photopilot
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:20 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
There was nothing wrong with the lesson - anyone who had an objection to it needs to grow up. It's clearly not an attempt to indoctrinate, unless you're an islamophobic bigot. But then the problem is with you, not the lesson.

      


"were studying the Middle East and were asked to trace a piece of Arabic calligraphy"

Well gosh, if the students were studying the Middle East, AND studying Arabic calligraphy, why not teach them the one single tenet that 90%+ of the mid-east population follows. It's called EDUCATION and that means learning and understand different things about the area you're studying.

Closing the schools was a completely unwarranted decision founded on fear and bigotry and a knee-jerk reaction to the bigots otherwise labelled as "parents".
 
ltbewr
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:31 pm

The area this lesson took place in is one that beyond the college students in the area, are 99% Christian with a high percentage of them evangelical and anti-Muslim. It is a shame our schools cannot teach about the major faith groups in the world and in the USA in a neutral and informative matter. With that said, the use of this phrase for a particular lesson, was not a good idea.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:41 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
How is saying "this is the Shahada" anything remotely close to "in your face"? They don't even translate what the Shahada is, other than that it's a statement of faith.

The thing is that per Muslim creed stating the Shahada in from of Muslim witnesses is converting to Islam (if sincerely meant, for men there are still a few more issues, like circumcission). AFAIK the IS flag also states the Shahada.
So why couldn't the authors of this course's papers use some neutral text in Arabic?

But on the other hand there was a complete overreaction from both the parents as well as the school administration. I mean, this comes from a country where a^woman sporting a LINUX t-shirt showing a cartoon demon was accused of worshipping the devil.

I think that everybody involved will have egg on their faces.

Jan
 
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pvjin
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
The thing is that per Muslim creed stating the Shahada in from of Muslim witnesses is converting to Islam (if sincerely meant, for men there are still a few more issues, like circumcission). AFAIK the IS flag also states the Shahada.
So why couldn't the authors of this course's papers use some neutral text in Arabic?

I agree. I mean, the same people shouting "islamophobic" here would be sure outraged if let's say some refugee Muslim children were taught English at school using ten commandments from the Bible.
 
aloges
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:19 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 13):
I agree. I mean, the same people shouting "islamophobic" here would be sure outraged if let's say some refugee Muslim children were taught English at school using ten commandments from the Bible.

If they were in a calligraphy class and got the task of copying an artful representation of a commandment or two, what exactly would be the problem?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 13):
I agree. I mean, the same people shouting "islamophobic" here would be sure outraged if let's say some refugee Muslim children were taught English at school using ten commandments from the Bible.

Outraged? Why? i studied in a Catholic school, i attended Church on a weekly bases on Sunday's for two months while in the same school summer camp, i know the ten commandments, and i am not outraged. I respect others religions, period.

As for the matter in hand, just for writing or even speaking the words doesn't make you a Muslim, there are few words missing and the intention is not there either, so it's just some overreaction from some ignorant parents. Islamophobia at it's best.

[Edited 2015-12-19 07:36:32]
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 4:54 pm

So why don't they do the same thing in suadia Arabia for English for one of the commandments "which has nothing to do with religion but with the English language"  
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:01 pm

English 101 it's Saudi Arabia, second this was a calligraphy lesson and not a religion one, so let's keep things in it's proper intend.
BTW in KSA children do learn English. The ten commandments are common between all religions.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:04 pm

Sobhi, I know that you are quite open minded, and I'm regularly following your posts. But I think you also have to agree that in your belief there also exist morons, who e.g. see a Muslim just entering a Christian church for touristic purposes (e.g. Notre Dame in Paris) as a sign of falling from the true belief. The people, who protested against using the Shahada for a lesson in Arabic calligraphy were the Christian equivalent.

Also, I deliberately included the word "sincerely" in my previous post. There has to be an intend to convert, just knowing the text does not make one convert.

Btw., how is you health? Getting better?

Jan

[Edited 2015-12-19 09:05:15]
 
aloges
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:05 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 16):
So why don't they do the same thing in suadia Arabia

A: What is "suadia Arabia"?
B: Do you actually know the Ten Commandments aren't mentioned in schools in Arab countries?
C: In case you were talking about Saudi Arabia, that country is hardly setting standards for the US or other democratic countries.

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 16):
for English

Once again: a calligraphy class is not a language class.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
to agree that in your belief there also exist morons, who e.g. see a Muslim just entering a Christian church for touristic purposes (e.g. Notre Dame in Paris) as a sign of falling from the true belief

Yep, and many of them, but i don't consider them dangerous but idiots.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
Btw., how is you health? Getting better?

Thank you for asking, moved to the USA for treatment starting Monday, thanks God for a good health insurance.  
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 5:14 pm

Moses and Jesus are both prophets mentioned in the Q'ran. The Ten Commandments are also a part of Islam, just like for Judaism and Christianity.

Jan
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:14 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):

I'm not a professional on ISlam nor Christanity but then how come do they consider the Bible and the Torah corrupt?
 
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seb146
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:37 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 1):
whoever came up with the exercise could probably have chosen a better example of Arabic caligraphy, or at least one that wasn't so, shall we say, "in your face".

I suspect that, even if they had been given something "secular" to write, some parents would still scream about Islamic indoctrination. People are that ignorant.

I do agree that, in American public schools, NO religion should be taught or supported.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 22):
I'm not a professional on ISlam nor Christanity but then how come do they consider the Bible and the Torah corrupt?

Because for them both books were assembled by humans and the writers did not yet have the full relevation (the christian Bible was defintely written bya commitee of priests and preachers in Byzanz under Emperor Julian or Justinian, I forgot which one,, about 400 AD. The emperor had enough of infighting among the different branches of the young Christian church and ordered the respresentants of the mainstream sects to get their act together and write a common Bible) . This was only given to Mohammed, who is, according to Islam, the last and final prophet.

Jan
 
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Aesma
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:20 pm

What is funny is that many Muslims follow hadiths and sayings from important scholars that aren't part of that revealed word, sometimes even contradicting it.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:50 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 25):

And with some of the self proclaimed scholars they explain the hadith in a way to suit there political or aggressive goals.
For me the Koran is my only guide, not that some of the hadith's are true, but i prefer the sure source.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:24 pm

If the example given to the students is the one in the linked report and the objective was to show how complex calligraphy can be, I'm not surprised that it was chosen.

I think it is sad that there has been such a reaction to an exercise. It really does show how closed-minded some people can be. If more people were to read across a range of texts they might be surprised to find that there is much that is shared.

If they then concentrated on the positives that unite rather than that which divides the world might be a better place but I guess egotism, pride and lust for power get in the way. Combine that with ignorance and fear and all sorts of trouble erupts

I see no harm in people being taught about religion in schools so that they can learn how and why religions evolved and still followed today. The schools should not promote or favour one religion over another but provide a basic understanding of what they are. I see this as being no different to teaching about different political ideologies or parties.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 24):
(the christian Bible was defintely written bya commitee of priests and preachers in Byzanz under Emperor Julian or Justinian, I forgot which one,, about 400 AD. The emperor had enough of infighting among the different branches of the young Christian church and ordered the respresentants of the mainstream sects to get their act together and write a common Bible)

Your idea is correct but it was written in & published Rome, in the 4th century (ie 300s) under the protection of the Emperor Constantine and the committee was supervised by his mother, who was a early convert. Even then not all Christian churches of the time (especially the eastern ones) accepted it. The Byzantine Emperors may have done something similar after the fall of Rome, I am not that familiar with their history.

Gemuser
 
oly720man
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:47 pm

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
How can people be so ignorant?

A third of people responding to one survey would have supported bombing Agrabah.






Where Aladdin lived.




The fictional Aladdin.


http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...grabah-disney-aladdin-donald-trump

http://time.com/4155228/amiercans-bomb-aladdin-agrabah/


Whether this proves anything beyond a willingness amongst some to drop bombs on a foreign sounding place, or the usefulness of asking the public anything, is debatable.


To the question at hand.... did the kids of the 1950s go though the same if there was any Russian calligraphy they may have learnt at school?

I presume that this is symptomatic of many problems these days that to even consider some possibly contentious subjects is to legitimise them, or humanise them, in certain eyes when suspicion and mistrust are the established behaviour.
 
WIederling
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:02 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 29):

calligraphy is predominantly associated with arab and chinese writing.

Nice turning of the tables:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/16/wo...homeland-arabic-graffiti.html?_r=0

super!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:03 am

THE APOSTLES’ CREED, TRADITIONAL VERSION
I believe in God the Father Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth;
And in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord:
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, dead, and buried;*
the third day he rose from the dead;
he ascended into heaven,
and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
from thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic** church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.




I suggest all you critics of the US and its people in this situation go forth into the Middle East and in some areas of Europe, Asia, Africa and ask for permission to go out and preach this Doctrine/prayer. Please have your survivors let us know how successful you were in spreading the word of Christ. Maybe just ask for this prayer to be written in Arabic and presented to classes there as a class exercise in Calligraphy. This should be no problem in the world some exist in on here.    

[Edited 2015-12-19 17:31:51]
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:34 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 31):

That other countries might raise intolerance to an official requirement is no excuse for intolerance in countries that proclaim freedom of (and from) religion. Nor does bemusement of intolerance by some mean a criticism of an entire country.

The US remains a country of considerable freedom by far when compared to others. That does not prevent it having its far share of idiots/ fools/ haters [select word of choice] just as other countries do.  
 
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seb146
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:51 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 29):
did the kids of the 1950s go though the same if there was any Russian calligraphy they may have learnt at school?

My parents are "cold war kids." That is: they had much more fear of Soviets bombing the snot out of us than I had. To me, the Soviet Union was just a bunch of land controlled by a small group of people forcing millions of others to suffer. That is how I was taught. I thought the Russian language was interesting. My father hated that I found it interesting and was sounding out the letters and some words well.

I guess, because I find languages with different writing styles interesting, I think taking an Arabic calligraphy class would be fun. Religion should not be encouraged or taught in any shape in American public school. But, some people will just assume with any Arabic script, indoctrination is occurring.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:50 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 32):
The US remains a country of considerable freedom by far when compared to others. That does not prevent it having its far share of idiots/ fools/ haters [select word of choice] just as other countries do.

And that is called freedom of thought, and speech and protest guaranteed by our constitution and Bill of Rights. You want to hate someone, be my guest, you want to protest, be my guest, you want to take offense at whatever, be my guest, but you do not have the freedom to kill, terrorize, and try to impose your religion by acts of terror here. These US folks were exercising (Our) freedom to protest, that I agree with. I most certainly support (Our) Constitution which allows us to do so peacefully. Whoever believes that the words chosen in this class were done so innocently, is very naïve. The choice of words was designed to incite, and they sure did.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:42 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
I most certainly support (Our) Constitution which allows us to do so peacefully.

Peacefully you said?
If it was peacefully why did the school close there doors?

Quoting kaitak (Thread starter):
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35136023

However, anger built up and by Wednesday complaints had become so numerous that the school's doors were locked and monitored.

By Friday, the messages - described as profane and hateful - had increased and the decision was made to close the schools.
 
Mir
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:23 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
So why couldn't the authors of this course's papers use some neutral text in Arabic?

Because the lesson was about the significance of calligraphy to Islam, as idolatry is forbidden. This is like claiming that showing a picture of DaVinci's Last Supper in a textbook as an example of Christian art is Christian indoctrination. It's clearly not.

Could they have found a more neutral religious text? Maybe. But I really think we're making a mountain out of a molehill there.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
AFAIK the IS flag also states the Shahada.

It's similar, but not exactly the same.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 13):
I mean, the same people shouting "islamophobic" here would be sure outraged if let's say some refugee Muslim children were taught English at school using ten commandments from the Bible.

This wasn't an arabic class. It was the world religions component of a world geography class. As such, the significance of calligraphy and its relation to the Islamic faith is very important, and there's nothing wrong with using something that combines the two.

-Mir
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:56 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 34):
choice of words was designed to incite, and they sure did.

So teaching a group of students the significance of calligraphy in Middle Eastern culture is now "terrorism".
What a bizarre world we live in.

Many years ago a British army chaplain gave me an annotated and illustrated bible. I still have it. It is one of the most important gifts that I received, not because it made me a Christian but because it encouraged me to think about the context in which the various parts of the bible were written. I adopt the same approach to other works of literature.

To this day I am not a religious man but from my reading of writings of Jewish, Christian and Islamic scholars I note that they all agree at least on one thing. That is they agree on the first part of the shahada: there is no God but God. Beyond that ...

[Edited 2015-12-19 22:01:51]
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:57 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
Could they have found a more neutral religious text? Maybe. But I really think we're making a mountain out of a molehill there.

It's ridiculous. Calligraphy is one of the many beautiful things one can see and learn as a skill. To not be able to learn because of idle bigotry and paranoia is a tragic shame for those students.

If you are going to bring up one of the many faults with Islam (or any organised religion for that matter) that causes misery and servitude to millions - something that actually matters. Calligraphy does count as anything to be concerned about in the slightest.
 
Airstud
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:27 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 37):
So teaching a group of students the significance of calligraphy in Middle Eastern culture is now "terrorism".

I don't believe anyone called the calligraphy lesson "terrorism."

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 38):
Calligraphy is one of the many beautiful things one can see and learn as a skill. To not be able to learn because of idle bigotry and paranoia is a tragic shame for those students.
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 38):
Calligraphy does count as anything to be concerned about in the slightest.

It's not "calligraphy" anyone was objecting to, it was the proselytic content. As others have noted, they could have found a more content-neutral sampling of Arabic calligraphy. They very well ought to have done, if they were going to make the students write it out.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:13 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 39):
They very well ought to have done, if they were going to make the students write it out.

I could say the same if it said "Jesus is my Lord and Saviour" and they wanted me to write it on a peace of paper.... It's all religious cheerleading which I don't consider relevant to anything except perhaps a religious studies classroom (but I wouldn't stop anyone from learning objectively about it). We may as well learn about all our options for dogmatic ideologies from the same source, make up our own minds and pick one or reject them all.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:18 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 39):
, it was the proselytic content.

Do you have regular riots and protests every time somebody gets out bills to pay for something? After all, don't they clearly carry the words, "In God We Trust" ? Is that not proselytizing?
 
Airstud
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:45 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 41):
Do you have regular riots and protests every time somebody gets out bills to pay for something? After all, don't they clearly carry the words, "In God We Trust" ? Is that not proselytizing?

I would have no objection to that language being removed from my nation's currency.

I don't consider it proselytizing because it isn't MAKING anyone say it. If we were required to sign dollar bills before we use them, or if there were laws requiring that language to be printed in our checkbooks, causing us to effectively endorse the statement, that would be a problem.

If the textbook merely showed the kids what the shahada looked like, that would be fine. That's education. But they were being asked to write it out in their own hand; asked, effectively, to declare a specific religious belief.

The left wing in this country is sneering at what they believe to be that Virginia community's overreaction to this school exercise. Yet the left wing has historically opposed efforts to make schoolchildren recite the Pledge of Allegiance in an organized fashion, under school auspices. They believe the kids shouldn't be forced to declare an allegiance to our flag. If that's such a problem, why is it not a problem to force kids to write out a religious declaration?

Especially when - and I guess I'll just keep saying this - they could have easily found more benign examples of Arabic calligraphy for the kids to copy.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:44 am

So is writing it worse than saying it ?

And what's your opinion, do you support the pledge of allegiance (with "under God" ) AND this exercise, neither, or only one of them ?
 
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scbriml
Posts: 20088
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:11 am

Quoting Airstud (Reply 42):
But they were being asked to write it out in their own hand; asked, effectively, to declare a specific religious belief.

No, that's simply a massive stretch. I can write "God is great" until my wrist seizes up, it doesn't mean anything.   
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:14 am

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog"

That is not a statement of fact. It is not an assertion. Yet according to some, because I have written it I must believe it. I have been proselytised and by repeating it I am attempting to proselytise others.

In reality the above words are just a keyboard exercise that uses each of the letter keys on a standard typewriter. Scary.
 
Airstud
Posts: 4934
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2000 11:57 am

RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:47 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 43):
And what's your opinion, do you support the pledge of allegiance (with "under God" ) AND this exercise, neither, or only one of them ?

I could give a crap on a crayfish whether kids are forced to recite the Pledge or not.

And I don't support this calligraphy exercise, for reasons I've made clear above.

I would say the exact same thing if a secular school required students (non-Jews among them) to write out or recite שְׁמַע יִשְׂרָאֵל '' אֱלֹהֵינוּ '' אֶחָד

If they don't believe in Abraham's God and His Oneness, they shouldn't be asked to declare it. It's also offensive to me as a practicing Jew, to have one of our seminal prayers trolled out to be recited with complete insincerity by individuals who ought to be free not to recite it.
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:24 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 23):
I do agree that, in American public schools, NO religion should be taught or supported.

I'd think that courses like
"Comparative Religion" and
"Historic Etymology of Religions"
would be a good idea.
( We had this in school here in Hamburg and I still find it very usefull.)

There is lots of room for non faith based religious dissemination around.
( and very much needed. You can't have students getting all their information
from some faith or others PR department only.)

[Edited 2015-12-20 05:36:42]
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:58 pm

Quoting Airstud (Reply 39):
It's not "calligraphy" anyone was objecting to, it was the proselytic content.

So how would you show people an example of religious art without having religious content?

-Mir
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: Virginia Schools Shut Over Islamic Calligraphy Row

Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:17 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 48):
So how would you show people an example of religious art without having religious content?

You don't. The bible is quite enough for everybody.  

The source of many problems is people ignoring reality and being able to make it stick.

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