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lesfalls
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Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:51 pm

I bet majority of everyone thinks this is an over exaggeration but Donald Tusk, president of the Euopean council said that they have two months to get ahold of them selves or Schengen will collapse. Your thoughts?

http://www.ibtimes.com/eu-refugee-cr...wo-months-european-council-2271147
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AirPacific747
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Wed Jan 20, 2016 8:57 pm

It has failed a long time ago already? Several countries have "temporary" border control. Let's see how temporary it will be.
 
Rara
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Wed Jan 20, 2016 10:53 pm

Tusk is in a difficult position, politically. His home country of Poland is moving towards the far right. He himself is a center-right politician, traditionally associated with an EU-critical position, but since he now holds a major EU office with the associated responsibilities, he has to take care not to be identified with "liberal" EU positions too much to lose all standing in Poland. Thus he has to toe a fine line between what's still acceptable in Europe and what would render him irrelevant at home. I don't envy him.
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Wed Jan 20, 2016 11:08 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
I bet majority of everyone thinks this is an over exaggeration

I don't.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 1):
It has failed a long time ago already?

  

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 1):
Several countries have "temporary" border control. Let's see how temporary it will be.

  

Exactly.

It would not surprise me if more countries adopted similar border control measures and then these 'temporary' measures would become 'long term' and maybe, sadly, eventually 'permanent'...
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prebennorholm
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:11 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Thread starter):
I bet majority of everyone thinks this is an over exaggeration but Donald Tusk, president of the Euopean council said that they have two months to get ahold of them selves or Schengen will collapse.

Nah, that wasn't exactly what he said. What he said:

Quote...
“We have no more than two months to get things under control,” Tusk said. He said if the 28-member union could not control its external borders, the EU would, “fail as a political project.”
End of quote

As long as he doesn't explain what he puts into a basket named "Political Project", then this information is worthless.

The Schengen is of course widely broken already. The migration crisis took momentum some 8-9-10 months ago. What can happen in two months, when nothing could happen in 4-5 times that period, and when the situation is that the EU politicians just keep on slinging mud at each other? Nobody even tried to define a fix to the problem.

Not only Schengen is broken. Also the Nordic Passport Union - a regional "mini-Schengen" dating back to 45 years before Schengen - i now broken.

[Edited 2016-01-20 18:44:21]
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ikramerica
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:17 am

What is happening is that Europe is getting a taste of what the USA has been dealing with on our southern border for decades. It's not that everyone who crosses is a bad person, but it's too many, and 5% are criminals, and it causes problems. Your open borders crowd created your problem just as ours did here.
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:46 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 5):
Your open borders crowd created your problem just as ours did here.

  

Those on the left are to blame.

They are also the ones to blame for Australia's past border problems when boat loads of queue jumpers -(yes, they are queue jumpers because they attempt to take the place of refugees who follow a proper process and who have been waiting for years in refugee camps and who do not have tens of thousands of dollars to pay people smugglers)- were trying to get into Australia.

Thank God a change in government here curtailed that problem.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:46 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Those on the left are to blame.

Wish it were party related here. But it's a cabal of businesses who want cheap labor, the Catholic Church who wants to keep their USA numbers up, and open border democrats who want more voters or to please the Hispanic voting base they already have.
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WearyDrover
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 5:28 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Those on the left are to blame.

Angela Merkel would find it highly amusing to be described as being "on the left." Merkel is the leader of Christian Democratic Union of Germany and while she proclaimed that any refugees reaching Germany would be welcomed, in the Czech Republic the President, Milos Zeman (described by the Guardian as a leftwinger) has stated Muslims can never be integrated. He has consistently opposed immigration by Muslims, equating those who read he Qur'an with supporters of Nazism.

So hatred towards immigrants in general and Muslims in particular is not something limited to those on the right, just as compassion and tolerance are not limited to those on the left. The left can be equally guilty of bigotry, though the terms "left" and "right" are becoming increasingly meaninglessness. It often appears that a position for or against something is more likely to depend on whether it's your own party advocating it and on whether your party is in government or opposition.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 1:59 pm

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 8):
Angela Merkel would find it highly amusing to be described as being "on the left."

I don't think she cares. Merkel isn't really a politician. She is sort of "TV front figure" of the SPD/CDU coalition government, which is scared to death losing power to the East German "Linke" and the greens.

That's the reason for copying the policy of the greens and Linke as far as possible.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 2:25 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 2):
Tusk is in a difficult position, politically. His home country of Poland is moving towards the far right.

What happenes in Poland is moreless irrelevant to Tusk's standing as EU official... maybe except for Germany where this label ("far right") sends everyone to panic mode.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 8):
Angela Merkel would find it highly amusing to be described as being "on the left."

Even some lefties claim Merkel's crazy immigration policies are turning millions of CDU voters into "political homeless" or sending them into the arms of the AfD (and importing millions of future Grüne/Linke voters)

http://www.welt.de/politik/deutschla...n-Buerger-politisch-heimatlos.html
 
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
of the SPD/CDU coalition

It is actually a CDU/SPD coalition, althogh the tail (25%) wags with the dog (41,5%) which is also Muttis fault.

If Schengen falls, we will have a Situation at many borders that exists at Calais unfortunately already since Long. The single market will not cease to exist,. The Zero VAT invoicing between companies and thus the free flow of goods will continue. But there will be queus at the borders like in Calais which add time and costs.
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bhill
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 7:37 pm

Well....it would seem to me that as long as you can leave a Union....they will...Perhaps an "amendment" to the treaty should not allow this. This would force all of the members to work out their differences.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
I don't think she cares. Merkel isn't really a politician.

There has been an interesting point made in this video. http://youtu.be/j_8kc19DL70 Besides dissecting her words to show what self-loathing, gult-tripping garbage she keeps saying there is the thing about Merkel having no kids (Gazprom-Schröder has two, that's a factual error).
Therefore one can easily speculate, playing psychologist wannabe, that she is not realy emotionally invested in the future beyond the next say 20 years she has left (and all she probably cares about is being given the discredited Nobel Peace Prize, I assume), screw Germany, screw Europe after that. She just does not give a hoot.
 
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:05 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Those on the left are to blame.

Plenty of European "liberal" right wingers support this stuff too. Refugees are a big business, no doubt many Finnish right wing National Coalition politicians have connections to private businesses that run asylum centers. Also, on larger scale this refugee wave increases unemployment which pushes wages down, it also increases social welfare costs, something right winters in turn can use as an excuse to cut from social welfare.

All in all what I see here are bunch of idiotic naive lefties and right wingers who use the situation to transfer even more money to the rich elite.

In year 2015 the refugee crisis cost Finland more than all the benefits paid to students combined. Next year will probably be the same if not worse. As a 20yo university student I can't help but feel that scumbag politicians are giving away our future.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:35 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):

As someone who is proudly "on the left" but who acknowledges that this is a real issue, both in Europe and the "Boat People" situation in Australia, I reject the premise of your argument. There are a lot of people on the left here in Australia who heaved a sigh of relief when that issue was neutralised by the incoming Liberal government. The pragmatists on the ALP-Right know that there is no way that they can win that debate and many idealists on the ALP-Left acknowledge that the safest, most humane policy is for people not to set to sea in the first place. It's just that nobody is willing to publicly admit this as they are terrified of the Green left.

Personally speaking about the Australian situation, I can only say that it is a good thing that the number of boats setting sail from Indonesia for Australia has basically dropped to zero. The loss of life at sea at the peak of the boat arrivals was a humanitarian disaster, and the only way to avoid that is to ensure that they never set sail in the first place. Preventing that from happening involves both immigration policies at home which disuade people from trying and also working with our Indonesian colleagues to clamp down on the human trafficking operations there. However, and this is where I probably serve dangerously to the left from your perspective, there is a difference between "tough" policies and down-right criminal ones. Indefinite detention of children for example is something that I cannot abide.
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Rara
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 10:30 pm

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Those on the left are to blame.

To blame for what? Seriously, you've got to be more precise. There is another Schengen thread running in which this is a huge problem as well. People speak in very general terms, and it's hard to know what they really want to say. You can't just lump 50 years of European integration policy together with 5 months of asylum policy and pretend like it's the same thing.

What exactly are "those on the left" to blame for? Do you mean the freedom of movement within the European Union? That's not a leftist idea, but rather a market-liberal programme pushed through by mainly conservative governments throughout many decades. The idea is to expose Europeans everywhere to market forces, to harmonize countries' economic development, to bring down wages and increase productivity through increased competition and thereby improve the EU's competitiveness in a global market. Put simply, a Dutch factory worker can demand much higher wages and benefits if there isn't an equally qualified Portuguese worker standing in line to take his job. For that to happen, you need open borders and the freedom to move anywhere you chose.
Or do you mean the treatment of refugees from war-torn countries and the inability to protect the EU's external borders? Again this isn't leftist policy; in fact it isn't policy at all, but the result of a very inconsistent behaviour on the side of Germany's (center-right) government, failure to implement protective measures by EU border countries (and an unwillingness of other European countries to assist), a hamfisted application of the Dublin Agreement, and finally obligations resulting from the Geneva Convention.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 9):
I don't think she cares. Merkel isn't really a politician. She is sort of "TV front figure" of the SPD/CDU coalition government, which is scared to death losing power to the East German "Linke" and the greens.

So you think Merkel is just a figurehead and doesn't hold any political power at all, and the real powerbrokers are certain powerful people in the coalition? That's a very, shall I say, unusual interpretation of things. I've literally never heard anybody else claiming that. For starters, I would have to struggle to name any of these really powerful people in the background. Who exactly are you thinking of?
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 8):
Angela Merkel would find it highly amusing to be described as being "on the left."

Her overall political position may not be, but what she has allowed to happen in relation to the issues underpinning this thread is certainly underpinned by the weaker / softer left position on border protection / refugees.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 8):
she proclaimed that any refugees reaching Germany would be welcomed,

Which is more of a response one would expect from the left side of politics.

And to say "any refugees" is a bit careless.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 8):
in the Czech Republic the President, Milos Zeman (described by the Guardian as a leftwinger) has stated Muslims can never be integrated. He has consistently opposed immigration by Muslims, equating those who read he Qur'an with supporters of Nazism.

You have provided one more example, but that does not do a thing to change the fact that the left is typically more soft towards border protection and refugees and the right takes a harder line.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 8):
So hatred towards immigrants in general and Muslims in particular is not something limited to those on the right, just as compassion and tolerance are not limited to those on the left.

You use of extreme terms such as "hatred towards immigrants in general and Muslims" to describe the position of one side and then "compassion and tolerance" to describe the other are a bit off the mark and discredit you.

I would say that in general, the right is more interested in the nation's national interest where as the left is just interested in scoring political brownie points with the sympathetic as well as with the global audience. Kevin Rudd is the perfect example of this. He scrapped Howard's much better border protection policies to look like a nice guy just so he could get Australia a seat on the security council and land himself a job at the UN in the future. Look how many boats arrived under his policies. Luckily Abbott and the right were able to close the borders to boats pretty quickly after they returned. I bet the refugees waiting for years in camps who don't have tens of thousands of dollars to pay people smugglers are a bit more relieved that their place in the queue won't be lost to queue jumpers under this current government...

Quoting pvjin (Reply 14):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Those on the left are to blame.

Plenty of European "liberal" right wingers support this stuff too.

Again, plenty does not change the typical party position on "this stuff".

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
As someone who is proudly "on the left" but who acknowledges that this is a real issue, both in Europe and the "Boat People" situation in Australia, I reject the premise of your argument.

No surprise there!  
Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 15):
There are a lot of people on the left here in Australia who heaved a sigh of relief when that issue was neutralised by the incoming Liberal government.

That is not a surprise, if only that waste of space Sarah Hanson-Young was one of them  
Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 6):
Those on the left are to blame.

To blame for what? Seriously, you've got to be more precise.

Seriously, you need to pay attention to this thread...  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway, all must be well in Germany, they have just been named as the best country in the world according to one report:

'Revealed! The best country in the world'

http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/...-world/ar-BBovd5Q?ocid=mailsignout

Here are the rankings:

1. Germany

2. Canada

3. United Kingdom

4. United States

5. Sweden

6. Australia

7. Japan

8. France

9. Netherlands

10. Denmark


I'm very surprised that Switzerland is not on that list let alone towards the very top...
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Aesma
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:24 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 11):
If Schengen falls, we will have a Situation at many borders that exists at Calais unfortunately already since Long. The single market will not cease to exist,. The Zero VAT invoicing between companies and thus the free flow of goods will continue. But there will be queues at the borders like in Calais which add time and costs.

Actually the unraveling of the single market would be next.

Quoting bhill (Reply 12):
Well....it would seem to me that as long as you can leave a Union....they will...Perhaps an "amendment" to the treaty should not allow this. This would force all of the members to work out their differences.

You can't leave the EU, there is no mechanism in place in the treaties. Of course if a member state did secede, nobody would go to war over it.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 12:24 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 17):
I'm very surprised that Switzerland is not on that list let alone towards the very top...

So am I. And that was not the only surprise to me on that list.

But I didn't have to read very far on the link to see who created that list: World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Then I'm not the slightest surprised any longer.

Germany is a wealthy and stable economy, fairly low corruption, good education systems, plenty of low skill, low wage labor force, more imported in droves, fairly high unemployment, especially in the east, so plenty to choose from.

What more can a Davos want in a business paradise?

Of course countries like Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Austria, New Zealand, Finland etc. drop out at the bottom of that list. Too expensive and not enough unemployment.
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L410Turbolet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 1:25 am

"Fairly high unemployment" in Germany? Not sure about that...

http://www.statista.com/statistics/2...unemployment-rate-in-eu-countries/
 
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:10 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
So you think Merkel is just a figurehead and doesn't hold any political power at all, and the real powerbrokers are certain powerful people in the coalition?

About the first half you are correct. About the second half I wrote:

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
...the SPD/CDU coalition government, which is scared to death losing power to the East German "Linke" and the greens.

"Scared to death" is quite the opposite to "real powerbrokers". The German government is too scared to act. Too scared that any act would mean that Linke/Grüne would use the n-word against them.

Maybe something is actually coming on the table. Yesterday the president Mr. Joachim Gauck spoke at The World Economic Forum in Davos. Among many other things - mostly trivial quotes of his government - he also proposed:

"...eine Debatte über die Grenzen der Aufnahmefähigkeit."

Now it doesn't happen very often that the German president says anything political, which doesn't just repeat or clarify what his government already said. It is almost as unusual as for H.M. Queen Elizabeth II. It seems like he could say that without having the n-word slung back in his face. Maybe it was planned as a way for Germany to get out of the deadlock and open a real debate about her problems?

Maybe Gauck actually enjoys so much authority that his government dares to repeat his words? That could start a process which can roll back the current process where Germany is being split half and half, while taking first steps to civil war with violent street demonstrations by both sides and buildings on fire.

Am I too optimistic about that?
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WarRI1
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
You can't just lump 50 years of European integration policy

I am puzzled about the 50 years of integration in Europe. Is that what you call the ghettos of Europe containing millions of immigrants in Germany, France, Great Britain, Belgium and elsewhere. Integrated??????
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prebennorholm
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 20):
"Fairly high unemployment"

When quoting me it is allowed to quote the whole sentence  
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 19):
fairly high unemployment, especially in the east

While Germany on a worryingly sad EU scale comes out very well on average, then she has no lack of unemployed young men with low or no education to take up low wage jobs in the industry, again especially in the east.

The immigration in 2015 and 2016 will reinforce that trend as the immigrants come out of the camps.

That helps making her a "(manufacturing) business heaven", together with other things like good education system, low corruption and all such things. That helps put her on top of the list of the best countries by World Economic Forum.

Every forum with different parameters can make such rankings, and I am sure that Germany will place very high on almost every such ranking list. But I doubt she will take 1st place on them all. And I am quite convinced that on other lists a lot of other countries will mix in among the top ten.
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:07 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 19):
But I didn't have to read very far on the link to see who created that list: World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

Sadly, the only reason I could see Switzerland being left off of that list is because that is where the report came out  
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
You can't just lump 50 years of European integration policy

I am puzzled about the 50 years of integration in Europe. Is that what you call the ghettos of Europe containing millions of immigrants in Germany, France, Great Britain, Belgium and elsewhere. Integrated??????

  

Such ghetto areas and the problems more noted in them are more like evidence of failed integration policy.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:32 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
Such ghetto areas and the problems more noted in them are more like evidence of failed integration policy.

  


I agree, everything I see and read about Europe and their immigration problems sure points to failure as far as integration and assimilation goes. Has not it been pointed out by someone saying I quote " German Multiculturalism has failed" Is she not from Germany?
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:35 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 25):
Has not it been pointed out by someone saying I quote " German Multiculturalism has failed" Is she not from Germany?

I think she actually said utterly failed  

""This [multicultural] approach has failed, utterly failed,""

Sarkozy also declared multiculturalism a failure a few years ago FWIW.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:39 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 26):
I think she actually said utterly failed

I was trying to be kind to our fellow member who seems to think it has not.   
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Rara
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 18):
You can't leave the EU, there is no mechanism in place in the treaties.

Sure there is.. Article 50 in the Treaty on European Union.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 21):
The German government is too scared to act.

Maybe. Another possibility is that you don't know a whole lot about German politics. Which is by no means meant to be derogatory. I for one don't know the first thing about Danish politics. But some things you write are really quite off the mark.

IF the German government is scared, then not of the Greens and the Socialists, but rather of the right-wing populists of the AfD. The Green/Left position is virtually indistinguishable from the coalition.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 21):
Now it doesn't happen very often that the German president says anything political,

That happens literally all the time. The President holds a political office, reviews all pieces of legislation and comments on the major political issues of the times. He is, however, supposed to be impartial and shouldn't engage in party politics. Besides that, it's far from unusual for the President to say something polical.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 21):
which doesn't just repeat or clarify what his government already said.

It's not "his government", he's elected separately and it's well possible that the President and the Chancellor are from different sides of the political spectrum.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 21):
Maybe Gauck actually enjoys so much authority that his government dares to repeat his words?

You seem to be under the impression that the question of immigration / refugee limits is somehow taboo in the German government. This isn't the case at all; there are plenty of politicians in the governing parties that have called for reduced refugee numbers, upper limits and so on. The term "Grenzen der Aufnahmefähigkeit" wasn't introduced by Gauck, it has been used for months, e.g. by Gabriel and others. The CSU, which is one of the three parties of the governing coalition, has called for a hard limit of 200,000 refugees per year.

So the debate is very much alive. It is true, however, the Merkel so far hasn't yielded and has refused to decide on a hard limit on refugee numbers. I expect that this will change around March, when it will have become definite that other European countries won't share in the burden.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 22):
I am puzzled about the 50 years of integration in Europe. Is that what you call the ghettos of Europe containing millions of immigrants in Germany, France, Great Britain, Belgium and elsewhere. Integrated??????

Now, that's what I call the process of European integration. Look it up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_integration

By the way, I'm in the center of Berlin and I'm 20 minutes away from the end of my work day. Can you direct me to the nearest ghetto? I'd really like to see one of these things up close sometimes.
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PanHAM
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 3:55 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
IF the German government is scared, then not of the Greens and the Socialists, but rather of the right-wing populists of the AfD

The AfD Shares extreme left positions with the SED/Linke as well as extreme right positions with the NPD. These parties at the extreme Ends of the spectrum have a lot of mutual positions. They have in common that they are Populist and they draw votes from all parties , not only the CDU but the SPD and the Greens, plus the ones mentioned above.

Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
It's not "his government", he's elected separately and it's well possible that the President and the Chancellor are from different sides of the political spectrum.

The rule in a Democracy is that the President as well as the Chancellor are servants of all People living in this Country. They have been elected by a majority or formed a coalition to gain a majority but they are responsible to run the Country for the better of all Population.

That goes down to the Mayors of communities throughout all public Service positions.

To serve a Country for the better also means that you Keep control of the borders. A state is defined, among other things, by it's borders and it is the sovereign right that These borders are controlled and foreigners are admitted only after the authorities have made a thorough check on their identities. Germany and the other European countries have to come back to enforce the rule of the law at it's / their borders.

We, the sovereign, can demand that.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 28):
By the way, I'm in the center of Berlin and I'm 20 minutes away from the end of my work day. Can you direct me to the nearest ghetto? I'd really like to see one of these things up close sometimes.

Come on over here, we have them and so does every other country to my knowledge. Look up the definition of a Ghetto. You folks keep letting them in and guess who maybe in the Ghetto next?
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:07 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 30):
Come on over here, we have them and so does every other country to my knowledge. Look up the definition of a Ghetto. You folks keep letting them in and guess who maybe in the Ghetto next?

I'm aware that Ghettos exist in America. But you wrote that there are Ghettos in Europe "containing millions of immigrants in Germany, France, Great Britain, Belgium and elsewhere". I live in the largest city in Germany with the largest number of immigrants, and there is no such thing as a Ghetto here.
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:52 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 31):
I live in the largest city in Germany with the largest number of immigrants, and there is no such thing as a Ghetto here.

If the current refugee influx continues it won't take long until there are plenty of ghettos  
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sat Jan 23, 2016 3:09 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 32):
Quoting Rara (Reply 31):I live in the largest city in Germany with the largest number of immigrants, and there is no such thing as a Ghetto here.
If the current refugee influx continues it won't take long until there are plenty of ghettos

There are plenty already, and they have been there for many years. Rara only needs to google "tabu-zone" or "no-go area".

As one of few European countries Germany now also has city areas where you shouldn't go unless you have an undisputeably white skin color.

Germany is becoming a more and more divided country.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sat Jan 23, 2016 10:57 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 33):
There are plenty already, and they have been there for many years. Rara only needs to google "tabu-zone" or "no-go area".

As one of few European countries Germany now also has city areas where you shouldn't go unless you have an undisputeably white skin color.

Okay, I'm game. Name one "no-go zone" please, one Ghetto where I shouldn't go as a white person. Preferably in Berlin. I'll go there, take a few pictures and report my experiences here.
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PanHAM
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:11 am

The Thing with the ghettos is, you can always go there. When i worked in NY, I went to Jamaica every day because my workplace was between Rockaway Blvd and NY Avenue. Even later, on Business trips i went to that Portion of NY Blvd whoich was then called "Guy R Brewer Blvd", parked my rental car and walked through the bunch of Dealers into the Office. I ignored them and they ignored me.

But the whole areawas and probably still is a Ghetto and you should be careful when moving around or cruising by car and when you see certain People better get the hell outta there. We may not be that far in Germany yet but we have Areas where you better not go, especially when it is dark.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:31 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):
So the debate is very much alive. It is true, however, the Merkel so far hasn't yielded and has refused to decide on a hard limit on refugee numbers. I expect that this will change around March, when it will have become definite that other European countries won't share in the burden.

The thing is: How do you enforce such a number? By setting up the old GDR border in Greece, Italy etc., or on the Czech and Austrian border, complete with mine fields, walls, barbed wire and watch towers with troops under order to shoot?

IMO the importqant thing is to have everybody entered registered biometrically (picture, fingerprints), so that we know WHO is here and to prevent fraud, like multiple applications for welfare in different towns under different names. A check with the police database could also help to weed out known criminals or radicals. We cannot have an unregistered class of immgrants responsible to nobody but themselves here.
Next sort out everybody who should not be here in first place, sorting genuine refugees from the criminal scum, which apparently used the refugee wave to come here to rip off the country and social welfare system, and to deport them fast.
Also lower the threshold for deportable crimes, based on the residential status. E.g. somebody new here getting caught committing a crime should be deported right away, while somebody who got born here and ,lived here all his life should be treated like a local (itis not thateasy to get German nationality, therefore we have a large number of "foreigners", who's only difference from a German is their passport. They have been born here, mostly speak German better than their parent's language and never been away from here except for vacations).

If criminals can't be deported due to their countries not taking them back (as is currently apparently happening with Algeria, Morroco and Tunesia), then they should be locked up in a deportation facility until they can and not left to roam society to commit more crimes and to stick two fingers up to the law.

Finally, there should be closed reception facilities, where any asylum seeker gets put until he has been registered.

Jan
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:02 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 36):
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 27):So the debate is very much alive. It is true, however, the Merkel so far hasn't yielded and has refused to decide on a hard limit on refugee numbers. I expect that this will change around March, when it will have become definite that other European countries won't share in the burden.

Not my words.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 36):
Finally, there should be closed reception facilities, where any asylum seeker gets put until he has been registered.

At the very least, to contain them and to know who is in your country, this goes for any country. The rule of law should be maintained.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:07 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 35):
But the whole areawas and probably still is a Ghetto and you should be careful when moving around or cruising by car and when you see certain People better get the hell outta there. We may not be that far in Germany yet but we have Areas where you better not go, especially when it is dark.


  

Of course, for anyone in the US or any other country to deny this is pathetic, nor realistic. Germany according to some on here is Utopia, no social problems whatsoever. I wish some would read the definition of Ghetto also.
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lesfalls
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 2:52 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
I'll go there, take a few pictures and report my experiences here.

Neukölln and Moabit in Berlin are some no go zone areas:

http://www.europeanguardian.com/78-u...newly-disclosed-german-no-go-zones

I am very interested to see what the outcome will be. could you post some pictures after?
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:31 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 39):
Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
I'll go there, take a few pictures and report my experiences here.

Neukölln and Moabit in Berlin are some no go zone areas:

http://www.europeanguardian.com/78-u...newly-disclosed-german-no-go-zones

I am very interested to see what the outcome will be. could you post some pictures after?

  

For his own safety very good DSLR quality pics not required - just a cheap point and shoot camera will do for the pics as we don't want you to attract any unwanted attention or get mugged for your camera  
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 38):
Of course, for anyone in the US or any other country to deny this is pathetic, nor realistic. Germany according to some on here is Utopia, no social problems whatsoever. I wish some would read the definition of Ghetto also.

  
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 7:07 pm

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 39):
Quoting Rara (Reply 34):
I'll go there, take a few pictures and report my experiences here.

Neukölln and Moabit in Berlin are some no go zone areas:

http://www.europeanguardian.com/78-u...newly-disclosed-german-no-go-zones

I am very interested to see what the outcome will be. could you post some pictures after?

Have you ever been there? You are writing so much bullsh*t and have no clue at all.
Just for information, I have lived in Neukölln for several years and I'm very familiar with both places you mention. It is traditional working class district with cheap accomodation (though it has recently been discovered by developers for gentrification).
I feel a lot safer in Neukölln than e.g. in the Neo-Nazi districts of the East.
Stop reading your rightwing nonsense ("All Muslims are bad") and go travelling.

It starts to sound like the 1950s Red Scare under McCarthy ("There is a Commie under the bed!").

Jan

[Edited 2016-01-24 11:10:44]
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Aesma
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:13 pm

It seems the website is neo nazi.
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lesfalls
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):
Stop reading your rightwing nonsense ("All Muslims are bad") and go travelling.

Im sorry but i can tell you that Europe is having tons of problems. My family comes from Milan and i can tell you these so called "refugees" have created problems for Milan and europe. There are zones we cant go anymore and even just last week there was a break in into our building and these "migrants" stole a lot of money from our neighbor so i can defitnelty tell you that europe is nit fine and i cant stand hearing this b*llsh*t that i keep on hearing from people that these things dont exsist. Why don"t you go to the neighborhood right now and take pictures? Europe has change quite a bit in the last couple of years.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:41 pm

Neukölln is and was a rather poor working class district with lots of unemployed, immigrants (mostly Gastarbeiter, including many Italians) etc., but also university students (in German students tend to live on their own, not in dorms or with their parents). Cheap, low quality housing etc.. I have lived there and I do not say that the place is without problems, but it is far from a no go area. I have moved on, incomewise and now prefer to live in a rural area, where I can afford a big house and have plenty of space around me, but I still feel safe to go there. Next time I'm in Berlin I'lll take pictures, but showing shop signs with Turkish or Arab names will certainly taken again as "OMG, the Mussies are taking over!". It is just a typical Berlin working class district, just like Wedding, Moabit, Kreuzberg and parts of Schöneberg.

Frankly, the whole discussion is becoming hysterical, and you are one of the main posters of such stuff here on A.net.
Btw., a few weeks ago police caught a gang of burglars red handed here in one of the villages (they had been responsible for a whole wave of break ins in the region). These burglars were foreigners and just came here as an organised gang to steal. Guess where they came from? They were all Dutch, the border is about hundred km from here.

Jan
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:27 pm

Reading this discussion suggests only one thing: Some people here live in denial. It's absolutely irrelevant to discuss if Muslims are good or bad or whatever. It doesn't matter at all, because if the uncontrolled influx of migrants regardless of race and religion won't stop, Schengen will fail. May not happen in next 2 months, but it will happen. And the impact may be so damaging that it may lead to disintegration of the EU as we know it now.
To prevent the failure, the Schengen countries need to:
1. Immediately ensure proper protection of critical parts of Schengen's outer border.
2. Deal with North African countries that are refusing to take back migrants originating from their areas and ensure that the migrants will be returned. Help Turkey to deal with the migrants on it's area.
3. Develop a viable immigration policy
4. Get rid of politicians culpable with the current situation and ban them from returning to politics for life (yes, it includes the FDJ member)
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:20 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 44):

Um... They probably are second generation migrants that have Dutch citizenship. For example many newspapers in France say that "french youngsters" have commited a crime but they only call them that because the have French citizenship over what ethnicity they really are. If the next time you visit that neigboorhood and everything is fine I will defitnely would be happy. I am fine with immigration it's just when they create crime It upsets me. We have quite some Muslim neighborhoods in NYC and they are quite fine and are not unsafe. I actually find them quite intresting.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 45):

Would this affect Europeans living under their citizenship but in another EU country?
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:30 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 46):

Um... They probably are second generation migrants that have Dutch citizenship. For example many newspapers in France say that "french youngsters" have commited a crime but they only call them that because the have French citizenship over what ethnicity they really are. If the next time you visit that neigboorhood and everything is fine I will defitnely would be happy. I am fine with immigration it's just when they create crime It upsets me. We have quite some Muslim neighborhoods in NYC and they are quite fine and are not unsafe. I actually find them quite intresting.

So blond, blue eyed white people don't commit crimes?

Jan
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prebennorholm
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:39 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 39):
Neukölln and Moabit in Berlin are some no go zone areas:

Neukölln is a pretty large part of Berlin, and the ghetto was a small part in the north. But it is actually one of the German ghettos which over the last several years has received lots of resources for improvement.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 41):
I feel a lot safer in Neukölln than e.g. in the Neo-Nazi districts of the East.

Yup. And it all shows what a divided society it has become, and is becoming. A "them-and-us" society.

There are nazis in Germany, -neo and -ceo.

But there are also city districts where parts of the population speak out or even take various action to try to prevent their district to.... They are called neo-nazis by half of Germany, while the other half doesn't dare to say a word, scared of being stigmatized neo-nazis.

It will get worse and worse until the government gets in sort of control of the immigration and integration policies.

It's nothing specially German. In principle most European countries have same type of problems. But various countries are actually identifying the problems and are to various degree trying to improve. In that respect Germany is tail-end-charley.
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:55 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 46):
Would this affect Europeans living under their citizenship but in another EU country?

That's a difficult question. Everything would depend of each country. While I experienced my home country splitting, I believe the EU disintegrating would be different and therefore my experience is useless.
I do recall some Slovaks having difficulties in getting Czech citizenship after the split. But is was only about the crest on the passport, as both successor countries of Czechoslovakia agreed on the right of living and working in the other country for their citizens.
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