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MD11Engineer
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:35 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 48):
Neukölln is a pretty large part of Berlin, and the ghetto was a small part in the north. But it is actually one of the German ghettos which over the last several years has received lots of resources for improvement.

I grew up in Rudow in the south as a boy, but later lived between Hermannstrasse and Karl-Marx-Strasse in the north, which is right in the area you describe. I would not call it a ghetto, it is still ethnically a pretty mixed, but low income area. The main issue is (in all Berlin working class districts) that since the German re-unification Berlin (during cold war businesses in West Berlin were subsidised by the West German government to keep their factories there for political reasons. When the subsidies suddenly stopped after re-unification, many companies closed up and moved their work to low wage countries, mainly in Eastern Europe. The Communists in the East did not invest in their factories, so that by the time of the re-unification they were still mostly on the technological standard of the 1950s and could not compete) , which was once the biggest industrial city in Germany (mainly electrical, but also pharmaceutical and engineering, has lost most of it's industry (and therefore blue collar jobs) and has turned into a primarely administrative town, with new "creative" jobs appearing (the Berlin government is trying to sell the city as a kind of new Silicon Valley). The problem is that for most of these jobs college degrees are required, excluding traditional workers with vocational training, leading to high unemployment, both for ethnic Germans and immigrants (the Gastarbeiter got hird to do menial physical jobs). Competition for jobs is mainly going on at the bottom end.
The same applies to the other working class districts.

Examples for companies which once hired ten thousands in Berlin, and which have now gone: AEG, Telefunken, Schering, Osram, Borsig, and for a part Siemens.

Jan

[Edited 2016-01-25 01:43:07]

[Edited 2016-01-25 01:43:48]
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:47 am

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 45):
Reading this discussion suggests only one thing: Some people here live in denial. It's absolutely irrelevant to discuss if Muslims are good or bad or whatever. It doesn't matter at all, because if the uncontrolled influx of migrants regardless of race and religion won't stop, Schengen will fail. May not happen in next 2 months, but it will happen. And the impact may be so damaging that it may lead to disintegration of the EU as we know it now.

  

Very well said, sir!

Thank you for preaching some common sense in this thread that is over-represented by deniers...
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pvjin
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:20 pm

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Wor...cks-focused-on-europe-europol.ashx

Just a couple of those and we can say bye bye to Schengen forever. EU's inability to protect its outer borders is threatening its whole existence.
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na
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:29 pm

The borders in question are the Balkan route, ending at the Austrian-German border. It doesnt affect the major part of the EU directly. The real problem is the Turkey-Greece sea border area. Turkey is not willing to hold back the people without a few billion Euros bribe from Berlin, and Greece, despite having one of the largest Navies in Europe, either not able or not willing too.
 
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 12:50 pm

Quoting na (Reply 53):

A couple of billion euros wouldn't be a big price to pay if it significantly reduced the flow of refugees to Europe. The 30k refugees received by Finland last year already cost us a billion this year.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
na
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 1:08 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 54):
A couple of billion euros wouldn't be a big price to pay if it significantly reduced the flow of refugees to Europe. The 30k refugees received by Finland last year already cost us a billion this year.

I´d gladly support Merkel if 3 billion Euros for Turkey feeds the refugees there and not here! I am 50+ and never experienced my country in such unrest.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 2:51 pm

I'll bet that the uproar would be a lot less if the new wave of immigrants would not stick out through their appearance (and with this I don't mean Islamic dress, but a dusky complexion). I remember how my grandfather ranted back in the 1980s about "Neger" (Negrows) working at a construction site next door to his house. For all he and I knew, these guys could have been university students earning a few bob during semestral break (as I did). If they would have been blond, white and blue eyed Poles or Czechs, he wouldn't have noticed.

Dresden technical university is already complaining about attacks on their non-European research staff and students, leading to Non-European looking scientists, engineers and students to look for work at other universities, mainly in the former West.

Jan
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AirPacific747
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 3:33 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 47):
So blond, blue eyed white people don't commit crimes?

Certainly not to the same extent. It's evident in the statistics that immigrants with ME background are way over represented in the prisons compared to their numbers. Come on - stop living in post WW2 denial.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 45):
It doesn't matter at all, because if the uncontrolled influx of migrants regardless of race and religion won't stop, Schengen will fail. May not happen in next 2 months, but it will happen. And the impact may be so damaging that it may lead to disintegration of the EU as we know it now.

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[Edited 2016-01-25 07:38:29]
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:06 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 57):

Certainly not to the same extent. It's evident in the statistics that immigrants with ME background are way over represented in the prisons compared to their numbers. Come on - stop living in post WW2 denial.

Because we f*cked up in the 1960s and did not bother to integrate the second Gastarbeiter generation properly. Germany is officially still in denial that we are an immigration country. We still don''t have any legislation to allow for controlled immigration. Instead the CSU and the other rightwings want to send German women back to the kitchen to become fulltime housewives and mothers to make up for declining birthrate.

Jan
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pvjin
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:29 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 56):

I'll bet that the uproar would be a lot less if the new wave of immigrants would not stick out through their appearance (and with this I don't mean Islamic dress, but a dusky complexion).

I doubt that, the uproar has little to do with skin colour and a lot to do with the insane amount of rape and harassment committed by refugees. Today a refugee killed an asylum center employee in Sweden, and the Finnish police has reported about a gang rape committed by refugees in our capital Helsinki, the victim being a young native Finnish woman as usual.

Despite the fact people of foreign origin are a very small percentage of our population it's actually an exception for a convicted rape offender to be a native Finn nowadays.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 58):
Because we f*cked up in the 1960s and did not bother to integrate the second Gastarbeiter generation properly.

I can't find a single European country that would have done particularly well at integrating Muslims immigrants/refugees. Yet many other groups (like Indians, Vietnamese and so on) seem to have integrated just fine.

At some point you should stop blaming yourself and instead understand that it was a lost cause all the way from the start. Certain cultural and religious combinations aren't very compatible with ours.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:45 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 59):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 58):
Because we f*cked up in the 1960s and did not bother to integrate the second Gastarbeiter generation properly.

I can't find a single European country that would have done particularly well at integrating Muslims immigrants/refugees. Yet many other groups (like Indians, Vietnamese and so on) seem to have integrated just fine.

At some point you should stop blaming yourself and instead understand that it was a lost cause all the way from the start. Certain cultural and religious combinations aren't very compatible with ours.

Funny. I know a lot well integrated Muslims.

Btw., I looked up the criminal statistics published by the BKA (Federal crime department, the German equivalent of the FBI) for 2014 (the one for 2015 hasn't been published yet), and there it states that non-German nationals made up about 24% of all suspects for felonies (excluding crimes that can only be committed by foreigners, like illegal entry and residence, and crimes not falling under the jurisdiction of the police, but customs, like tax evasion). The highest of them are Turks, which is to be expected, as they are by far the largest immigrant group here, but followed by such Mulim countries as Poland, Romania, Serbia, Italy, The Russian Federation and Bulgaria. Only then come Kosovo, Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, followed again by Greece.

http://www.bka.de/nn_257310/SharedDo...ationFile.pdf/pks2014_englisch.pdf

So the biggest group of inmates in German prisons are....Germans.

But of course, these statistics comes from a government department and therefore cannot be trusted. Better to listen to publications by PEGIDA, NPD etc..

Jan
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LSZH34
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 8:52 pm

Destined to fail if it continues like that. After the repeating and meanwhile well known arrogant, rude and intolerant behaviour of migrants you think eastern european states are willing to let this people in their country? Face the truth, simply no. Religion has an important role for east europeans in life and you think continuous influx of muslim migrants are just gonna fit in? I'm sure they'd rather get rid of Schengen instead of their culture. Eventually Merkel will stand alone unless....

... she starts installing immigration limits, border control, riddance of violent migrants as her election is approaching in 2017 in order to stay in power.  
 
ikramerica
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 56):

That's the same tired race baiting used in the USA to silence critics of the Mexican invasion of the USA. If they were white you wouldn't be saying stay out.

2 problems...

1. We are actually turning white Europeans back who try to follow the rules and reapply for visas. Even those with children. We don't have an open door policy for whites or anyone.

2. After the rise of anarchism 100 years ago we stopped white immigration because at that time Balkan whites were a terrorist threat and because we had too many ethnic ghettos where people were t integrating. It took 50 years for the USA to reopen the borders in any meaningful way.

But if you look at Europe they have had brown neighbors for thousands of years. There has been trading and travel and such yet the countries didn't become homogenous beige. It's because the cultures are so different they don't blend well. Even in the 21st century there is very little blending. Assimilation or cultural immersion is not a goal of ME immigrants. Only jobs and/or welfare and establishment of their culture in their new neighborhood.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 9:36 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 62):
That's the same tired race baiting used in the USA to silence critics of the Mexican invasion of the USA. If they were white you wouldn't be saying stay out.

2 problems...

1. We are actually turning white Europeans back who try to follow the rules and reapply for visas. Even those with children. We don't have an open door policy for whites or anyone.

2. After the rise of anarchism 100 years ago we stopped white immigration because at that time Balkan whites were a terrorist threat and because we had too many ethnic ghettos where people were t integrating. It took 50 years for the USA to reopen the borders in any meaningful way.

But if you look at Europe they have had brown neighbors for thousands of years. There has been trading and travel and such yet the countries didn't become homogenous beige. It's because the cultures are so different they don't blend well. Even in the 21st century there is very little blending. Assimilation or cultural immersion is not a goal of ME immigrants. Only jobs and/or welfare and establishment of their culture in their new neighborhood.

Sooo? For the first 20 or so years the Polish miners recruited to work the coal mines in the Ruhr area in the mid-19th century stayed mostly among themselves, had their own churches and associations. Mixed marriages or closer relations with Germans were frowed on from both sides, but eventually they mixed in, resulting in a lot of Germans in this region having Polish family names.
Up to WW1 (after which it was not adviseable to appear to be German), German immigrants in the US had their own ghettoes ("Germantown"), with their own schools, shops, newspapers (in German) and libraries, but eventually they looked for mates outside their cultural circle.
I see the same happening with the Turks and Arabs, at least those who got some education.

Jan
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lesfalls
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:00 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 47):

I never said that. You haven't shown me the article that says what nationality they are so why don't you show it.
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na
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 10:40 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 60):
Btw., I looked up the criminal statistics published by the BKA (Federal crime department, the German equivalent of the FBI) for 2014 (the one for 2015 hasn't been published yet), and there it states that non-German nationals made up about 24% of all suspects for felonies (excluding crimes that can only be committed by foreigners, like illegal entry and residence, and crimes not falling under the jurisdiction of the police, but customs, like tax evasion). The highest of them are Turks, which is to be expected, as they are by far the largest immigrant group here, but followed by such Mulim countries as Poland, Romania, Serbia, Italy, The Russian Federation and Bulgaria. Only then come Kosovo, Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, followed again by Greece.

Among those counted as Germans there are many migrants with German passport. And while they legally are Germans, many are quite obviously still foreigners by their culture.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 60):
So the biggest group of inmates in German prisons are....Germans.

The percentage counts, and the percentage of criminals especially of muslim migrants is much higher than under native Germans, you can read that every day and also police complaining that they have to fabricate statistics so that they do not appear as bad as the reality is!
More than ten years back I was invited into a prison for an event. The high percentage of inmates which appeared to be of North African/Balkans/Near and Middle East descendence was extremely high. It did really surprise me.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Mon Jan 25, 2016 11:19 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 54):
The 30k refugees received by Finland last year already cost us a billion this year.

If the refugee problem didn't exist that is money that could have been spent on things that benefit the local tax payers.

Quoting na (Reply 55):
I´d gladly support Merkel if 3 billion Euros for Turkey feeds the refugees there and not here! I am 50+ and never experienced my country in such unrest.

That's another problem with this refugee problem - money that could otherwise be spent in ways that benefits the locals who pay tax might have to be thrown at other countries just to get them to cooperate and do things that curtail the impact of this mess on other countries. Give us money or we will do nothing because we know they are headed your way...

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 60):
I know a lot well integrated Muslims.

So do I.

But, sadly, I also know a lot more who have not and will never integrate and they seem to be proud of their stance / attitude - an attitude that if a foreigner took to where they came from they would probably end up shot or thrown in prison at best, certainly not receiving welfare payments on behalf of the tax payers...
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pvjin
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:25 am

Quoting na (Reply 65):
Among those counted as Germans there are many migrants with German passport. And while they legally are Germans, many are quite obviously still foreigners by their culture.

Exactly. The statistics linked by MD11Engineer have little point if they don't count immigrants who have already gained nationality.

This study from Finland does, and it shows certain groups are very much overrepresented in crimes:

http://www.optula.om.fi/material/att...ja/XZ5bk8f2H/265_Lehti_ym_2014.pdf
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777Jet
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:38 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 67):
Quoting na (Reply 65):
Among those counted as Germans there are many migrants with German passport. And while they legally are Germans, many are quite obviously still foreigners by their culture.

Exactly. The statistics linked by MD11Engineer have little point if they don't count immigrants who have already gained nationality.

  

Exactly.
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LSZH34
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 11:37 pm

Quoting na (Reply 55):
I´d gladly support Merkel if 3 billion Euros for Turkey feeds the refugees there and not here

I doubt the Turks will use that money for the refugees...
 
lewis
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:16 am

Quoting na (Reply 53):
and Greece, despite having one of the largest Navies in Europe, either not able or not willing too.

Sure, the current government has been very liberal with the immigrants and refugees. Last government that tried its best to curb that was crucified at every step (by the civilized Euros of course) for:

-Push back operations - Illegal under international conventions
-Building a fence on the land border
-Putting incoming migrants and refugees in camps

So unless you have a solution to propose that does not involve shooting incoming boats, keep the finger pointing to a minimum. After all, it was your country who extended an invite to millions of refugees. See how well pointing fingers works?

Sea borders, especially ones like Greece's with thousands of islands and with close proximity to a non-EU country are very difficult (or as Frontex stated "impossible") to patrol. I know its hard for countries that don't have them (Austria, Slovakia) to get that through their heads, but at least you would expect some intelligent people in the governments there to acknowledge the complexity of the task.

[Edited 2016-01-26 16:19:18]

[Edited 2016-01-26 16:21:02]

[Edited 2016-01-26 16:25:46]
 
ikramerica
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RE: Schengen Zone Could Fail In Two Months?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:55 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 63):
Sooo? For the first 20 or so years the Polish miners recruited to work the coal mines in the Ruhr area in the mid-19th century stayed mostly among themselves, had their own churches and associations. Mixed marriages or closer relations with Germans were frowed on from both sides, but eventually they mixed in, resulting in a lot of Germans in this region having Polish family names.
Up to WW1 (after which it was not adviseable to appear to be German), German immigrants in the US had their own ghettoes ("Germantown"), with their own schools, shops, newspapers (in German) and libraries, but eventually they looked for mates outside their cultural circle.
I see the same happening with the Turks and Arabs, at least those who got some education.


Yes. And soon AFTER WW1, immigration was STOPPED for this reason. You are proving MY point. They were white, and it stopped, because of lack of assimilation and threats to national security posed by white middle and eastern europeans. This despite the US have a 200 year previous history of German immigration and integration, from the Pennsylvania "Dutch" to the Texas communities that brought us the delicacy of "Chicken Fried Steak."
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