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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:31 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 88):
Give me a break. He sounds like he just walked out of an occupy movement block party the way he bitches and moans about capitalists.

Hard to give people a break when they abandon critical thinking and color everything in absurd generalities.   Bitching and moaning about the financial industry is not the same as bitching out the whole lot of private enterprise - which you are claiming he has done without evidence.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 85):
How much will that engineer be required to return in taxes?

In Norway probably 40% and up, but with the oil there that's more of a one-trick pony.

Part of what keeps me abroad in this particular location is the return I get on what I'm taxed. Let's imagine I was grossing 5 grand a month 3 years ago - that would have been something like:

510,000 yen/month

80,000 yen - combined NHS/national pension withholding
35,000 yen - combined local municipality tax / national income tax withholding
8,000 yen - unemployment insurance withholding

That's a total tax burden just under 25%. Now throw in rent for a decent place in the middle of a city, and you're at another 100,000 yen - so about 25% of net pay. That leaves 75% of net pay available to save, spend, whatever - but what has been covered by those taxes? You have: healthcare already covered and a vast array of public services, including transportation, provided in a functional and reliable manner.

If that kind of return on tax investment were available in the US, I'd be back in a heartbeat, but it ain't.

Now at a higher income, obviously my tax burden has increased - but for many middle class folks here making $3-$5 grand a month, the situation is pretty darn good as described above.

[Edited 2016-01-25 20:35:48]
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:33 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 94):
Trump made sense in the 2012 election cycle on these issues. Today he just sounds like a pandering trainwreck of a candidate.

Look at the polls, does that not suggest something is wrong in Paradise. Republican Paradise.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:36 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 95):
Did the banks do their homework on the people? Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to give out the money. How about some bank accountability?

A loan is an investment. Nobody has a right to make money on an investment, including banks - if they gamble wrong, they'll lose.

I could not agree more. They gambled, we lost and they still made and still do make billions.
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:40 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 99):
You sound like Bernie, for the last 50 years. I don't have a candidate yet. I'm waiting for the side show to end, and it will.

I like anybody who speaks reality, we are getting screwed, we have always gotten screwed, and we will continue to get screwed if someone like Sanders and Trump do not speak up. I suggest you will wait until hell freezes over for Hillary or any Republican Candidate who advocates Wall Street, bank or business reform, or meaningful tax reform.

[Edited 2016-01-25 20:45:00]

[Edited 2016-01-25 20:45:42]

[Edited 2016-01-25 20:47:42]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:23 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 87):
He is not doing too bad in Iowa so far. He seems to be attracting the younger crowd who feel dis-associated from the benefits of Capitalism. I seem to feel the same way, all traveling uphill in violation of the laws of gravity. Money flows uphill and shit seems to flow down, funny that!

Along those lines, the Christian Science Monitor has an article about Trump's appeal to middle-class voters who fell like they are swimming upstream and how he is forcing the Republicans to focus on them.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politic...ing-Republicans-to-rethink-poverty
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:39 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 104):
Along those lines, the Christian Science Monitor has an article about Trump's appeal to middle-class voters who fell like they are swimming upstream and how he is forcing the Republicans to focus on them.

I most certainly agree that he is doing that, and along with Sanders that makes two out of the bunch. That is why the controllers of both parties are worried about losing the iron fisted control they have enjoyed and what put us where we are in this corrupted society. The very people who gave away the store and increased poverty now bitch and moan about the welfare class they helped create as a smokescreen to cover the misdeeds of congress and the wealthy.
Good for Bernie Sanders and Trump, it is about time.
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:46 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 105):
The very people who gave away the store and increased poverty now bitch and moan about the welfare class they helped create as a smokescreen to cover the misdeeds of congress and the wealthy.
Good for Bernie Sanders and Trump, it is about time.

I'll definitely give Trump that - his hackneyed immigration and foreign policy aside - he puts it right out there and says 'I've been a lobbyist - I've played that game - I know all those tricks and how to shut them out'. There's nobody on the GOP ticket who can say that.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:49 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 78):
he is making significantly less than he would in the US.

My company has engineers in the US, they donæ't make as much as the engineers we have in Norway and Germany doing the same job.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 78):
And I seriously doubt there are more openings in Norway than the US, let alone opportunities. It's not even a serious comparison. Plus even with the same salary, he would chose the US because there's simply more to see and do, and it's easier to speak Spanish.

There are loads of jobs in Norway for civil engineers, that's where a lot of the out of work oil and gas engineers are going to. If you take Europe as a whole there is a lot more to see and do here than in the US. The food is better as well.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 100):
In Norway probably 40% and up, but with the oil there that's more of a one-trick pony.

You'll only pay 40% or more tax if you don't have any debt and have an extermely high income. My tax rate on an very good salary is 29%, I get a lot in return for that.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:52 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 101):
Look at the polls, does that not suggest something is wrong in Paradise. Republican Paradise.

No argument from me.

-Dave
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:00 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 107):
My tax rate on an very good salary is 29%, I get a lot in return for that.

Your situation is similar to mine then. We have it good!  
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:35 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 109):
Your situation is similar to mine then. We have it good!

We do indeed, even though I ocasionally complain about some of the strange things that happen in Norway, life here is significantly better than the average Joe has it in the US, enless you're one of those 1%ers.
 
Caryjack
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:57 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 52):
You really need to stop watching Fox News...

Fox News doesn't say this.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 54):
I guarantee you'd be far better off living in Europe, NZ, Australia or Canada than you are in the US.

Your guarantee is worthless.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 55):
I don't think you really understand what Democratic Socialism is, nor does Bernie because he's trying desperately to redefine it so it tastes like candy.

He is trying to define himself, which is normal. I've always heard him identified as a socialist but a few days ago on Fox News he self identified as a democratic socialist. Today CNN introduced him as a socialist.

No matter how you slice it, he runs as an independent, which begs the question: How can someone who's not even in the party run as a democrat?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
"Economic redistribution" under Socialist terms usually means that the "means of production" stop being owned by a single individual and become owned by the workers.

Not in the USA. Taking the means of production from the rightful owners and giving it to the collective is called communism.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
But at the end of the day, Sanders is just a Social Democrat, not a Democratic Socialist. One thing is not like the other...

One thing is not like the other from 1 country to the next. For an example, In Russia a conservative is a communist but in the USA that person would be a capitalist. Reverse it for a liberal.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
I'd like to see what would happen to your precious corporations if they suddenly were forced to close down their sweatshops around the globe, for example

Care to see what would happen to the economies of the countries where those "sweatshops" are located? In 1960 products from Japan to the USA were cheep and tinny. Then came Japanese optics, Honda...etc. Highly skilled (and paying) jobs stayed in Japan while the low skilled work went off shore.

I'm aware of a clothing manufacture in the USA with a facility in Nicaragua who must move some production to another country because the skill level (cost of labor) has become too high. The high end products will stay, as will all the workers, but the lower skill (lower cost) products will be moved to a new facility, most likely Viet Nam.

Previous to this I was associated with another fellow from the USA who started a sewing school in rural Nicaragua.
USA corporations hopscotch around the globe, kind of like Santa Claus.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
Yay for people dying for not being able to afford health care. Yay for people living constantly indebt until the day they die. Yay for the highest amount of incarcerated people on the planet relative to their population. Yay for mass surveilance. Yay for institutionalized racism and clasism.

What a crock.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 64):
The science denial that takes place in this country is beyond ridiculous, and while the right takes most of the blame for this with their staunch denial of climate change in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary....

No reasonable person can deny the changes, but the causes and proportions are open to debate. For example, in 1960 I was taught that the last ice age would be over when Greenland was free of ice. At the same others pointed to expanding glaciers as proof that the planet was cooling.

Quoting GDB (Reply 65):
You are the odd ones out - not the same as 'exceptional' either.

We don't want to be like you....And we are exceptional.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 79):
How could I embarrass myself at all?

You could start off by posting links without reading them.

The first link is about an origination called Skeptical Science which was started by a physicist named John Cook for the purpose of using Christian social justice to make the world a better place. Cook's goal was to make global warming a populist and political movement: consensus was the vehicle he chose.

Consensus is not part of the scientific method. Three researchers come to the same conclusion but a 4th has a different. Who's correct, do they vote? "The earth is flat" is on a long list of accepted conclusions that turned out false. But lets not be hard on the flat earth people, it wasn't bad science. They didn't start out in consensus but arrived at it over thousands of years.

Skeptical Science started as a movement to use consensus to convince the masses that their side was right. Everyone voted for them (so they said), how could they be wrong?


Quoting adipasquale (Reply 79):
the vast majority of scientific papers (97.2% to be exact) that pertain to climate change acknowledge that the warming we are experiencing right now is human caused.

No, at least not according to your link. Skeptical Science sorted through 11944 scientific papers concerning climate change for the term global warming. Of the 4014 papers they found, 97.2% cited human caused. The other 7930 papers did not advance their agenda and were subsequently discarded.


How can 97.2% of scientific papers say that global warming is caused by us humans? No natural forces at work? Sun activity? What ended the last ice age, and the ice ages before it?

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 79):
I will also refer you to this (non-exhaustive) list of scientific organizations, government agencies, and international organizations that acknowledge climate change as human-caused:

Your second link is simply a list of organizations that contributed to the 4014 papers from which the 97.2 number was derived.


The President on the USA used the 97.2% number to spend $ billions for the purpose of combating global warming. Other politicians have said that it is the greatest threat to life on the planet. I hope they have better numbers.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 79):
while not an environmental science major

Just curious, what is your major?
Thanks,
Cary
 
zhiao
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 12:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 107):

"Your company" is one example, andanecdotal evidence. Besides I actually do not believe that after adjusted for purchasing power that it's higher in any of those two countries. What exactly is the wage in NOK? In any case look at all jobs and it's below the US

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

And i call BS on the notion that life is better outside the top 1%. I just posted data showing that the top 10% has nearly double the income of your country. And that figure already adjusts for healthcare and education, and still not even close. And this does not even count the larger living spaces that are like triple in size, at the lowest income spectrum.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:40 pm

Quoting zhiao (Reply 112):
And this does not even count the larger living spaces that are like triple in size, at the lowest income spectrum.

Not everyone is utterly materialist and wants a huge living space like you do. After growing up in several 2500 square foot houses, I am perfectly content with the 710 square foot apartment I'm in now. I have a view of a park, the skyline, and am 1.5 blocks from a massive park with 6 km of trails. I have eliminated so much excess crap I never use by living over here - it takes 15 minutes to pack for an overseas trip and everything we need daily is within reach. It reduces life stress incredibly - not to mention I never have to worry about my stuff ever being stolen.
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zhiao
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 1:56 pm

Maybe I should be more like you
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:24 pm

Quoting zhiao (Reply 112):
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

Median wage and PPP are far more accurate.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 112):
I just posted data showing that the top 10% has nearly double the income of your country.

You mean the wikipedia article, if you look at median household income Norway comes out on top of the US, average household income isn't as accurate a picture.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_average_wage

And again in median income purchasing power parity Norway comes out ahead of the US.

The top 1% which you don't think matters much captured 95% of income growth between 2009 and 2012, 5% left for the other 99% kinda sucks. All is not rosey in the US, it's amazing how disaffected people in other countries have this misinformed belief that going to the US is the answer.

http://www.epi.org/publication/incom...-inequality-by-state-1917-to-2012/

According to this slide rule my household are nicely inside the top 10% threshold in the US. I know a fair number of people who would be close to or just inside the top 5%, it's not hard for a Norwegian family to have an income inside the US top 10%, just about everyone in my office apart from a couple of single guys would be inside the threashold.

http://money.cnn.com/calculator/pf/income-rank/
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):

I've come to believe you are just jealous.

You go to too great lengths to portray the US as some backwater 3rd world country. This thread for instance, you start out saying life in Europe is so much better and higher standards in every way, but then only want to compare a tiny country of 5 million homogeneous people with 318 million immigrants in the US.

Meanwhile, Europe is increasing looking like the backwater continent. Filthy air, stagnant economies, near-rampant terrorism, and technologically, you are nearing hillbilly status. In fact, that last one can't be emphasized enough because that is the future. Europe has little innovation and technology moves very quickly. What is Europe doing? Spending all its energy trying to stop it with ridiculous fights about obsolete web browsers. You have no idea how stupid Europe looks from here in tech, you are nothing and that is already hurting your auto industry.

Meanwhile, Europe does not pay anywhere close to its fair share of its defense costs, both on it's own continent and its energy supply lines. The German Army (and most of the rest) is a joke and if not for the largess of US taxpayers, you would have your wish of Putin Rule right there in Norway.

Penis envy, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you get what you wish for.
 
Acheron
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:00 pm

Quoting zhiao (Reply 63):
I agree kind of, but no offense (as someone who is a Spanish citizen), Spain's political system is more screwed. We do not even have a govt now, and a huge part of the country wants to separate.

That has to do more with the consequences of coming a dictatorship that is still being glorified and which never went away completely.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 63):
the US has always been: a messy democracy with long debates, but which at the end is adaptive to change.

That they are still struggling with veiled but still institutionalized racism says otherwise.

Quoting slider (Reply 72):
I don't know--I'd say that eviscerating individual liberty, co-opting one's labor, talents and skills and redistributing them to the whims of a central planner is a pretty dogmatic shift.

It's pretty boring having to deal with the most often repeated myths of socialism. :-/

Socialism doesn't necesarily includes a decentralized economy, for one. Co-opting is also pretty much a myth, as you are supposed to persuit any path you want since you are not bound by the need of being a wage slave.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 74):
Please explain your claim, the key word being 'survival'..
Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
I'd like to see what would happen to your precious corporations if they suddenly were forced to close down their sweatshops around the globe, for example

Or a few countries started to put their own interests before those of the US, no matter how much threats and blackmailing the US does.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
Not in the USA. Taking the means of production from the rightful owners and giving it to the collective is called communism.

I'm sure if Slave owners would have heard of communism, they'd use the same argument. But yeah, I'm aware you lot don't know much about actual left politics after they were wiped out in the 1950's and 1960's.
Ignorance is not bliss, though...

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
For an example, In Russia a conservative is a communist but in the USA that person would be a capitalist. Reverse it for a liberal.

And from the perspective of an actual communist, both, a conservative and a liberal on US terms, are Liberals. As in classic Liberalism

The only variation between one and the other being how willing they are on reigning the corporations and their will to shaft the poor.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
I'm aware of a clothing manufacture in the USA with a facility in Nicaragua who must move some production to another country because the skill level (cost of labor) has become too high.

And of course we can't have poor people earning a decent living wage at the "expense" of those poor CEO's bonuses, right?.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
USA corporations hopscotch around the globe, kind of like Santa Claus.

Until they run out of countries to parasite of from

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 113):
Not everyone is utterly materialist and wants a huge living space like you do.

Thats the amusing part. Some people assume that everybody else must be greedy like them or that they need to live like a Rapper to live well...
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 117):
That they are still struggling with veiled but still institutionalized racism says otherwise.

That's laughable when you consider the US is one of the least-racist societies in the world. That's right, the US has overcome more than Europe ever has in its history in the racism dept. You have not even begun.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 117):
Or a few countries started to put their own interests before those of the US, no matter how much threats and blackmailing the US does.

Examples please. What countries does the US depend on for "survival"?

And on the other hand, how many countries depend on the US for survival? I can think of a few right there on your continent....
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 7:34 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 118):
And on the other hand, how many countries depend on the US for survival? I can think of a few right there on your continent....

A very good point, all the attempts to not acknowledge that fact does not change the facts of which you speak. The debt owed , not even financially to the US is incalcuable. I once heard a French newsman answer the question, I quote, Why do the French People seem to dislike the US so much? His answer, because you have saved us twice. It seems that answer covers others countries with people who will not, or cannot admit the facts so documented by history. Sad really, but so human.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
slider
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 8:25 pm

http://wethevigilant.com/2016/01/23/...for-totalitarian-gun-confiscation/

The Bern wants our guns.

Let's dispense with the nomenclature BS as to which "-ist" he is, shall we?

He's an enemy of Liberty so anyone who votes for him does so with a stain of statism for selling out their soul to a government figurehead who wants to control your life just as all the others. No way.

We talk about US politics a lot here; tons of nuance, a lot of policy parsing, but sometimes it's pretty easy, like now. Sanders wants to control you. No thanks.
 
zhiao
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Jan 26, 2016 10:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):

1. The median household income data on Wikipedia severely underestimates US median income, if you bothered to read the footnote (which you did not). The census underestimate income, while Norway uses administrative data (not survey) so it's much more accurate. The cnn link is based on Census estimated income which as I said is underestimated.

2. The numbers I posted (OECD) were derived from
National accounts, not a survey (so no comparability issues) and as you see show that the top 10% has double the income and bottom is only a few thousand dollars less.

3. The EPI link shows a completely flawed analysis of income growth because the researchers only looked at taxable income and excluded govt transfers. It's a huge criticism of the Saez analysis but it makes sense; if you are going to exclude trillions of dollars of income that help the middle or lower class, then of course inequality is going to be overstated. These people have yet to correct for this bias.
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 2:18 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 107):
You'll only pay 40% or more tax if you don't have any debt and have an extermely high income. My tax rate on an very good salary is 29%, I get a lot in return for that.

With a wife and kids, that is high. How much VAT? How much fuel tax? How much tax to buy a car?

A typical entry level computer engineer here making $100k per year with no dependents/no deductions would pay 20% federal income tax. The thieves in Sacramento, California would steal 7% for state income tax. Most all non-food sales are taxed at ~8%.Yearly property taxes are 1% of value per year. There are various state schemes to avoid the tax word, which they call "fees", but inconsequential for a guy making $100k..

So who has the most spending power at the end of the day?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:57 am

^
As noted in reply 100, since I keep roughly 70% of my net income as disposable/savings - it might be me. 

I don't know anyone back home in that boat absent being independently wealthy. No VAT in Japan - 8% consumption tax similar to CA. Don't know about a car because if I need one, I just rent one for the day/weekend or whatever. There's no point to own a car in the middle of Osaka.

[Edited 2016-01-26 20:12:14]
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Scorpio
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:25 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 116):
I've come to believe you are just jealous.

You go to too great lengths to portray the US as some backwater 3rd world country. This thread for instance, you start out saying life in Europe is so much better and higher standards in every way, but then only want to compare a tiny country of 5 million homogeneous people with 318 million immigrants in the US.

Meanwhile, Europe is increasing looking like the backwater continent. Filthy air, stagnant economies, near-rampant terrorism, and technologically, you are nearing hillbilly status. In fact, that last one can't be emphasized enough because that is the future. Europe has little innovation and technology moves very quickly. What is Europe doing? Spending all its energy trying to stop it with ridiculous fights about obsolete web browsers. You have no idea how stupid Europe looks from here in tech, you are nothing and that is already hurting your auto industry.

Meanwhile, Europe does not pay anywhere close to its fair share of its defense costs, both on it's own continent and its energy supply lines. The German Army (and most of the rest) is a joke and if not for the largess of US taxpayers, you would have your wish of Putin Rule right there in Norway.

Penis envy, nothing more, nothing less. I hope you get what you wish for.

Wow. That has got to be one of the most vile, mean-spirited posts I've read on here yet. The epitome of the 'Ugly American' stereotype.

You're a disgrace to your country, mham001.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 124):
Wow. That has got to be one of the most vile, mean-spirited posts I've read on here yet. The epitome of the 'Ugly American' stereotype.

You're a disgrace to your country, mham001.

Nah. A dose of truth is good to soak in every once in a while. It hurts, but you'll get past it. Maybe even be better for it.

Quoting slider (Reply 120):
http://wethevigilant.com/2016/01/23/...for-totalitarian-gun-confiscation/

The Bern wants our guns.

Let's dispense with the nomenclature BS as to which "-ist" he is, shall we?

He's an enemy of Liberty so anyone who votes for him does so with a stain of statism for selling out their soul to a government figurehead who wants to control your life just as all the others. No way.

We talk about US politics a lot here; tons of nuance, a lot of policy parsing, but sometimes it's pretty easy, like now. Sanders wants to control you. No thanks.

Nothing to see here. Bernie is just a socialist.   

Well, maybe just a wolf in sheep clothing for the gullible masses following him. Maybe one day they'll wake up from their zombie state and realize Bernie actually hates this place for all the evil we've done to his communist heroes. I never would have thought that one President could do so much political harm that communism would look appealing to people in the US. Politicians and educators must have been working overtime the last 10 years. Truly astonishing.

[Edited 2016-01-27 05:23:11]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
Scorpio
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 12:55 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 125):
Nah. A dose of truth is good to soak in every once in a while. It hurts, but you'll get past it. Maybe even be better for it.

You'd have a point if there was much truth to it. Then again, your repeated flat-out refusal to answer concrete questions to back up your Sanders 'communism' accusations show that 'truth' isn't exactly something you value highly, so why you of all people uses that word is somewhat beyond me...
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:00 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 126):
have a point if there was much truth to it. Then again, your repeated flat-out refusal to answer concrete questions to back up your Sanders 'communism' accusations show that 'truth' isn't exactly something you value highly, so why you of all people uses that word is somewhat beyond me...

You want to walk the earth pretending not to see something for what it is that's your call.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
Scorpio
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:25 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 127):
You want to walk the earth pretending not to see something for what it is that's your call.

Aaaanddd..... dodged. Again.

You've got nothing.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:35 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 127):
You want to walk the earth pretending not to see something for what it is that's your call.

Lolz...let's see if there's anything silly about that statement:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 125):
Bernie actually hates this place for all the evil we've done to his communist heroes

Ummm, nah.

The U.S. constitution is an extraordinary document. In my view, it should not be amended often.

Not only must we fight to end disastrous unfettered free trade agreements with China, Mexico, and other low wage countries, we must fight to fundamentally rewrite our trade agreements so that American products, not jobs, are our number one export.

The Federal Reserve needs to provide small businesses in America with the same low-interest loans it gave to foreign banks.

In any democratic, civilized - even non-democratic nations, if you are a nation, it means to say that in our case, if there's a hurricane in Louisiana, the people of Vermont are there for them. If there's a tornado in the Midwest, we are there for them. If there's flooding in the East Coast, the people in California are there for us.

The Senate voted 59 to 39 in favor of an amendment I offered to the Budget Resolution calling on the Fed to tell the American people who they loaned $2.2 trillion to and how much each bank received.

Difficult times often bring out the best in people.

It is incomprehensible that drug companies still get away with charging Americans twice as much, or more, than citizens of Canada or Europe for the exact same drugs manufactured by the exact same companies.

Capitalism does a number of things very well: it helps create an entrepreneurial spirit; it gets people motivated to come up with new ideas, and that's a good thing.

all Sanders quotes. Yes, he clearly hates America, and cares not for its people. lolzzzz

[Edited 2016-01-27 05:35:55]
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:39 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 128):
Aaaanddd..... dodged. Again.

You've got nothing.

Actually, when you think about it, all he has to prove his point is his own views on things. Brings back to mind Matilda:



Though I liked this a lot:

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 81):
The burden of proof is on those who made the claim. You don't turn in a research paper and tell your professor, do a Google search.

Grad student: I know how to travel through time and can prove it.
Professor: where's your paper?
Grad student:

Quote:
You want to walk the earth pretending not to see something for what it is that's your call. Do a search.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:41 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 128):
You've got nothing.

He's your hero. Who are his?

http://www.cctv.org/watch-tv/programs/cctv-archives-and-bernie-sanders

[Edited 2016-01-27 10:42:05]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
Scorpio
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:38 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 131):
He's your hero.

Not even by a long shot. But of course in the fine tradition of the schooyard bully it is your duty to say that I must love and adore anyone who I defend from nonsensical accusations.

Oh well, I guess I should be happy you didn't accuse me of wanting to kiss and marry the guy.

I can't believe I watched that entire thing. God that was boring!

So you've literally got nothing?
 
Caryjack
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:59 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 132):
I can't believe I watched that entire thing. God that was boring!

I went directly to Bernie Beat which is the station's archive for Bernie Sanders' political life in Vermont. The videos go back 31 years and I saw clippings from the early '70s.

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/v...ust-a-fan-club/Content?oid=2434161
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:19 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 124):
Wow. That has got to be one of the most vile, mean-spirited posts I've read on here yet. The epitome of the 'Ugly American' stereotype.

You're a disgrace to your country, mham001.

That's a laugh. We sit here and take post after post, sometimes entire threads bashing anything and everything American,. generally based on lies, half-truths and general conspiracy theory which your Euro-trash media has fed you. You can't handle the truth.

https://youtu.be/5j2F4VcBmeo
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:04 am

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
The other 7930 papers did not advance their agenda and were subsequently discarded.

It would seem that you read this part wrong. They found 11,944 papers that mentioned the term "global warming." Of those papers

Quote:
Green and her colleagues found 4,014 papers that endorsed global warming, rejected global warming or explicitly stated they did not hold a position on it

This does not mean that 7,930 of the papers discarded the theory of global warming as rubbish, it means that the term "global warming" was merely discussed in these papers, and the authors did not take a definitive position.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
Your second link is simply a list of organizations that contributed to the 4014 papers from which the 97.2 number was derived.

Yes, but I was showing that the theory of global warming being largely human caused is supported by many credible organizations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveys...cientists'_views_on_climate_change
I know it is wikipedia, but look at this and tell me what you make of it.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
Just curious, what is your major?

Industrial and Labor Relations
DH8A DH8B CR1 CR2 CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E75 E90 D93 M88 319 320 321 333 343 712 732 733 734 73G 738 739 744 752 753 762 763 77L 77W
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:36 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 132):
I can't believe I watched that entire thing. God that was boring!

Yes, Bernies rants are very boring. You'd think he was in prison being abused or something.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:15 pm

^
Still waiting for your legit response to his quotes in reply 129.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
Scorpio
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:57 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 134):
That's a laugh. We sit here and take post after post, sometimes entire threads bashing anything and everything American,. generally based on lies, half-truths and general conspiracy theory which your Euro-trash media has fed you. You can't handle the truth.

If you'd ever seen me support or make the kinds of ridiculous blanket statements about the US that you are making about Europe here, you'd have a point. But you haven't, and so you don't.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 136):
Yes, Bernies rants are very boring. You'd think he was in prison being abused or something.

Aaaaanddd .... dodged.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 137):
Still waiting for your legit response to his quotes in reply 129.

Don't hold your breath...
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Jan 28, 2016 4:42 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 138):
If you'd ever seen me support or make the kinds of ridiculous blanket statements about the US that you are making about Europe here, you'd have a point. But you haven't, and so you don't.

Sorry, that was not necessarily directed at you, they have this 'quote' function that pretty much makes it clear to whom a post is directed. I don't recall seeing your name there but there are a number of posters in this forum who routinely slam anything American and then disappear when challenged, as we see in this thread. Nothing I said was untrue, exaggerated or "ridiculous", that is the status of Europe as seen in Silicon Valley. Like it or not.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:20 pm

I guess New Hampshire voters don't mind Bernie's plan for a big raise in taxes, otherwise they'd be leaning more to Hillary.

Oh yes if he did win nomination and election...good luck trying to pass a big tax raise in Paul Ryan's Congress!!!!

For the record Hillary won the NH primary in 2008 and lost nomination to Obama.

John McCain also won the NH primary in 2000 and lost nomination to GW Bush.

If this 8-year cycle continues Bernie's expected NH win will result in Hillary's nomination.

[Edited 2016-01-28 10:25:02]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Caryjack
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:07 am

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 135):
Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
The other 7930 papers did not advance their agenda and were subsequently discarded.

It would seem that you read this part wrong. They found 11,944 papers that mentioned the term "global warming."

There are 2 terms in play, "climate change" and "global warming". You could be mixing them up.

The 11944 papers were on climate change. Those papers were searched for the term global warming which turned up 4014 papers. The 4014 papers were searched for a "human caused" element which 97.2% of those papers had. This shows that about a third of climate change papers had something to do with global warming and not all of the global warming had a human element.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 135):
This does not mean that 7,930 of the papers discarded the theory of global warming as rubbish, it means that the term "global warming" was merely discussed in these papers, and the authors did not take a definitive position.

Of the 11944 papers on climate change, 7930 did not mention global warming so were not useful for this particular Skeptical Science project.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 135):
Quote:
Green and her colleagues found 4,014 papers that endorsed global warming, rejected global warming or explicitly stated they did not hold a position on it

These are the papers dealing with climate change that have a global warming element. Of those 3 categories:

1. Papers that do not hold a position on global warming indicate it plays no part in climate change.
2. Papers that rejected global warming indicate that it was considered but has no part in climate change.
3. Papers that endorsed global warming indicate that it was considered and has a part in climate change.

Human cause could be cited (positive or negative) in all 3 cases but only could affect climate change in the 3rd case. This is where the Skeptical Science paper falls apart as proof of human caused climate change.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 79):
we can just look at what the professionals have to say: the vast majority of scientific papers (97.2% to be exact) that pertain to climate change acknowledge that the warming we are experiencing right now is human caused.

The 97.2% good as far as it goes but it came from those 3 categories above, which came from the 4014 papers.

Papers from groups 1 and 2 (above) do not blame humans for climate change because in these papers, humans have no part in global warming. These humans were included in the 97.2% as causing climate change but were cited in the papers as not being a factor in global warming. This reduces the 97.2% number, but to what?

Papers in group 3 indicate that humans are cited in global warming, but in what way and to what degree? Do some papers blame humans for pollution? Are humans responsible for 100% of global warming in all the papers in group 3? Maybe 50% blame in some and 10% in others? Is any paper giving human credit for combating global warming? How many?

My point is the 97.2% number cannot be supported and has no place in a scientific report.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 135):
I know it is wikipedia, but look at this and tell me what you make of it.

Wikipedia is often knocked on this site but I often find it useful and good. You just have to know that there are many zealots on that site whose calling is to set the world straight. The Survey of scientists page has plenty to cherry pick. If I pick 1 someone else finds the opposite, which is OK as long as the're close to civil.

For insights on how the information is selected, go to the "Talk" tab on the page you posted (upper left, just to the right of the globe). This for example:

"The surveys are mostly of climate scientists but many are not. The criteria differ between surveys. In some cases, e.g. the American Meteorological Society, many of the members are enthusiasts rather than scientists with a degree. Dmcq (talk) 22:46, 1 December 2015 (UTC)"

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 135):

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
Just curious, what is your major?

Industrial and Labor Relations

   I have that degree...it's from a regional state college.

Thanks,
Cary
 
Caryjack
Posts: 402
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 117):
Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
Not in the USA. Taking the means of production from the rightful owners and giving it to the collective is called communism.

I'm sure if Slave owners would have heard of communism, they'd use the same argument.

Soviet dictators enslaved many countries in Eastern Europe....They were slave owners.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 117):
Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
For an example, In Russia a conservative is a communist but in the USA that person would be a capitalist. Reverse it for a liberal.

[quote=Acheron,reply=117]Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
I'm aware of a clothing manufacture in the USA with a facility in Nicaragua who must move some production to another country because the skill level (cost of labor) has become too high.

And of course we can't have poor people earning a decent living wage at the "expense" of those poor CEO's bonuses, right?.

A half truth is a lie. Here is the complete quote.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 111):
I'm aware of a clothing manufacture in the USA with a facility in Nicaragua who must move some production to another country because the skill level (cost of labor) has become too high. The high end products will stay, as will all the workers, but the lower skill (lower cost) products will be moved to a new facility, most likely Viet Nam.

The higher paying jobs stayed. The manufacturer simply moved in a higher yield product to take advantage of the more skilled and higher paid employees.
To be clear, these workers do not have the skills to command the wages found in many parts of the world. What they do have are the wages which allow them to earn a good living in their part of the world.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:40 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 140):
I guess New Hampshire voters don't mind Bernie's plan for a big raise in taxes

New Hampshire and Vermont are irrelevant. Evidence:

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 140):
For the record Hillary won the NH primary in 2008 and lost nomination to Obama.

John McCain also won the NH primary in 2000 and lost nomination to GW Bush.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 137):

^
Still waiting for your legit response to his quotes in reply 129.
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 138):
Aaaaanddd .... dodged.

Answered before you even asked:

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 67):
Bernie's absolutely enamored with Communism and always has been. He knows it’s an unelectable position and he's even going so far as to try and redefine Democratic Socialism to make it sound good. It’s so ridiculously transparent that I don’t know whether I should laugh at him or cry for him. His goal is to make it more palatable so a future generation will embrace it. The gullible are falling for it now.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
Scorpio
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Fri Jan 29, 2016 9:49 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 143):
Answered before you even asked:

In exactly which fidget of your imagination that is an answer is beyond me. So your evidence that Sanders is a 'commie' is .....

wait for it

.....

because you say so?
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:51 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 143):
Answered before you even asked:

Um, nah - your statement was 'Bernie hates this place...yada yada.' So, please identify where in the quotes I provided (or any others that may delight you) a hate for America or its people is made obvious. It shouldn't be that hard if you're so sure.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N867DA
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 1:58 pm

I will likely vote for Bernie Sanders in the primary, and I thought the ad was okay. It was effective in peddling the feel-goodery that the ad is meant to. The ad isn't for Republicans. The ad is to motivate his base and maybe make some Hillary Clinton supporters reconsider their choice. It could be better, but it is simple and effective and ultimately a positive thing for Bernie's campaign. I think Sanders believes that Hillary is better for the country than any of the Republicans and is not going to do anything too damaging. He definitely doesn't have to search hard to find dirt on her.

I don't understand why anyone needs to defend America to foreigners so much. We have our own unique problems and some of them may never be solved. But that's okay. So does every other country in the world--even the European ones. These things run in cycles. Right now, we're pro-business. Give it another 20-30 years, and maybe we'll be pro-consumer again.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:04 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 146):
Right now, we're pro-business. Give it another 20-30 years, and maybe we'll be pro-consumer again.

The question is whether being pro-business has been extending its welcome. You're pro-business when the economy is in a recession. You wanna generate incentives for businesses to hire people back or stem the pace of layoffs. Once the economy is booming, then you become pro-consumer. Make sure that more resources are allocated to the needs of consumers.

Like right now: oil has dropped back to 2003-2005 levels. Aside from gasoline and power bills from companies that use oil, have you noticed anything else going down in price? Businesses have kept the same prices for their products, rake in record profits, but do not give their employees a decent raise (except C-suite which get bonuses galore). What should you be: pro-business or pro-consumer?

Quoting N867DA (Reply 146):
I think Sanders believes that Hillary is better for the country than any of the Republicans and is not going to do anything too damaging.

I think he's just out to show who the better man is. That campaigns don't have to stoop to negative ads and mud-slinging to attract voters. It's a different campaign and a welcome breath of fresh air. His star is rising. However, as a taxpayer, I am concerned though about promising too much stuff without mentioning how to pay for it and how people can EARN it. That's the thing.


Free college? Yeah, I'm on board with that. How will people EARN the right to free tuition? Are you gonna make them work for it (put in 10-20 volunteer hours per month or something)? Is a 16th century women's role in literature degree in the same category as a nuclear engineering degree? Would I be eligible for a second degree even though I have my first one? I'm hesitant to see tax money go to free college if I'm not gonna see a worthwhile ROI from it.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 4:10 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 147):
His star is rising. However, as a taxpayer, I am concerned though about promising too much stuff without mentioning how to pay for it and how people can EARN it. That's the thing.

In the end, he's aware that even getting halfway on some of his proposals would dramatically improve the lives of many.

The most disingenuous statement from HRC thus far is that she is the pragmatist who can get things done in this race. I would submit that since the GOP reaction to anything from the Clintons is total anathema, she would in fact, get less done than even Obama has managed to. That is the baggage the Clintons carry.

Sanders's policy ideals may be anathema to many on the right too, but they do not have strong personal disdain for him as a person, unlike HRC. I have seen many statements of respect toward him from both GOP pundits and members of Congress. That is an advantage he should play up more.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
N867DA
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sat Jan 30, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 147):
Like right now: oil has dropped back to 2003-2005 levels. Aside from gasoline and power bills from companies that use oil, have you noticed anything else going down in price? Businesses have kept the same prices for their products, rake in record profits, but do not give their employees a decent raise (except C-suite which get bonuses galore). What should you be: pro-business or pro-consumer?

Devil's advocate: Corporations have fewer obligations toward their employees and employers have less loyalty toward their employers. There's a bit of chicken-and-egg here, but if I am an employer why should I pay someone more money when I know they're likely to leave in 3-4 years for more money or a promotion? The way society sees work has changed, and it's not all for the better. I think Bernie is the only candidate that's willing to consider how the changes will affect everyone.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you

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