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einsteinboricua
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 3:15 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 148):
she is the pragmatist who can get things done in this race.

Sanders won't be able to get much without Congress. Do you really think Republicans will allow votes on his proposals? I actually think Clinton, having dealt with the GOP in the Senate and then having the GOP bombard her left and right, could actually get Congress to pass her proposals. Just like Sanders wants his proposals to pass, the GOP will ensure they're stopped. If neither side budges, welcome to years 9-12 of gridlock.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 149):
but if I am an employer why should I pay someone more money when I know they're likely to leave in 3-4 years for more money or a promotion?

This right there is a contradiction. if you're giving them a raise, why would they go out to find more money? If my company matched the market I would have no reason to leave (that or pay less than market but make up with benefits). But if my company pays below market, 3-4 years of being below market, with no benefits, of course I'll leave.
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 4:39 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 150):

Fair enough, but personal things go a long way, and Sanders is not hated as a person by Congress. Can we say the same of HRC..??
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BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:36 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
So it's making the rounds that Sanders has released an ad targeted to rural Americans, especially ahead of the NH and Iowa votes. Is this a big win, or dramatic miscalculation?

All it did was show pictures of farmers. I don't know what he would do to target rural Americans, there's a subset of them whom I'm sure would be happy with his shtick.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
What message, dude? A pretty song and pictures of Americans in rural and suburban environments?

Considering what he believes, nothing is the best thing he can say.

Quoting DLFREEBIRD (Reply 8):
It's a positive message. focusing on giving America back to it's people.

What the hell does that even mean? I could take the phrase "Give America back to its people" and use it as a slogan for pretty much every group in existence.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 15):
Dude's a communist.

He's not a Communist. But Social Democrats or whatever he calls himself is firmly beyond the pale anyway. He has little interest in economic freedom and promises to be a thug on behalf of the little people.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Sadly they have forgotten the lessons from the Party of No blocking Obama as often as possible.

Nobody would have to say no if people were not trying to pass damaging legislation. Calvin Coolidge was right you know. He was an even better president than Reagan.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 19):
Actually he's a socialist. His problem is that he is therefore the easiest target for the GOP.

The problem isn't the word, it's that Jar-Jar Sanders actually believes that crap. He actually thinks that it's an okay thing to do when in reality it is every bit as wrong as kicking Muslims out of the country.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 27):
Correct, and he has self-identified as such, not that the media mentions it often.

Does it really matter which type of shit smells worst?

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 31):
Another key aspect I think is campaign financing and how that affects democracy, at least in this election. It's not much of a democracy when you have big money from a few influencing so many. Sanders' average donation is $27.

Any restriction on campaign funding is a violation of the First Amendment and a reduction in economic freedom. People should have the right to spend their money however they wish and can keep their economic dealings private if they so choose.

The money is mainly an excuse anyway, the people still have to vote. Whining about campaign finance is laziness on the part of voters who apparently don't care to do any digging beyond what shows up during American Idol.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 31):
Social democracy is just that, giving the democracy back to the people.

The main tenet is actually giving other people's money to the people, but spin it however lets you justify it.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 37):
His overwhelming focus, throughout his career, has been on income and wealth inequality and civil rights.

He fights against wealth inequality by fighting against civil rights.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 47):
If anything, you should prefer Bernie over Cliton because of his refusal to support an insane bill that would make gun manufacturers responsible for shooting crimes.

I actually don't think Hillary is that bad. I trust the bankers and they think she's alright and won't try to gut my retirement. That said, I'd have a hard time voting to give her a promotion after the email thing since I have friends whom I know would be fired, or worse, for doing something like that.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 54):
I guarantee you'd be far better off living in Europe, NZ, Australia or Canada than you are in the US.

Yeah, I don't think I would be.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 59):
The problem is once you have economic redistribution on such a scale, the economy collapses because there is no longer an incentive to invest internally.

That's the catch: the big welfare state with broad social services can only work where the wealth already exists to redistribute. This article, admittedly slanted, lays out one example of how the growth of a welfare state happened on the back of an economically liberal capitalist state and threatened (or threatens) to kill it.

http://www.libertarianism.org/public...ire-made-sweden-rich#.oh1fskp:XePw

Another example would be countries that are floating on oil.

Without a large existing pool of wealth to draw on, building a welfare state will necessitate enacting growth stifling policies and before you know it you're adding another letter to the PIIGS.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
"Economic redistribution" under Socialist terms usually means that the "means of production" stop being owned by a single individual and become owned by the workers.

That's a largely meaningless distinction. What difference does it make if the whole factory is taken over by the government, of if the government just taxes the hell out of the profits from said factory?

Quoting Acheron (Reply 60):
Yay for people dying for not being able to afford health care

Why is somebody else not being able to afford to take care of themselves my problem? Or conversely, if it is something I consider a problem, I'll take care of it without the government intervening.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 82):
Absent 'eviscerating individual liberty', that is almost precisely what the above countries have done, and they are doing just fine.

That depends on your definition of "just fine." In reality, there is nothing "just fine" about taking what others have rightfully earned to redistribute it without their consent.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 90):
Skipping all other matters, is he wrong about Wall Street and the banks?

He is wrong about Wall Street and the banks. I want them to do well because that's where I, and a lot of other Americans, invest our money. Bernie's ideas would be hugely damaging.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 94):
I think they are far and away most attracted by two main words: FREE COLLEGE.

Free for them. I think that the student loan and education market is in danger because of the same government and societal distortions that afflicted the mortgage market in the mid 2000s. Allowing the system to move more towards a free market will help avert potential disaster.

If I'm going to pay for college, I want to to be my education that I control instead of trying to bankroll everyone.

That said, I do support a strong, but largely locally funded, K-12 education system. Really that's only because I'm a nice guy, if I were strictly economically driven I wouldn't support it at all.

Quoting Mir (Reply 95):
Did the banks do their homework on the people? Nobody put a gun to their head and forced them to give out the money. How about some bank accountability?

They had their accountability until the government bailed them out which was, unfortunately, necessary although most of the funds have been paid back.

If you owe the bank $100 you have a problem. If you owe the bank $1000 they have a problem. In the future allow the banks as much freedom as possible, but put them on notice that they'll live with the results of their investments. And that includes not being pushed by the government to make risky loans to low income borrowers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 115):
According to this slide rule my household are nicely inside the top 10% threshold in the US. I know a fair number of people who would be close to or just inside the top 5%, it's not hard for a Norwegian family to have an income inside the US top 10%, just about everyone in my office apart from a couple of single guys would be inside the threashold.

Ten minutes on Volkswagen.com indicates that you have to pay almost twice as much as an American for a GTI.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 117):
Thats the amusing part. Some people assume that everybody else must be greedy like them or that they need to live like a Rapper to live well...

Not really. It's a matter of freedom to be greedy or not.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 129):
It is incomprehensible that drug companies still get away with charging Americans twice as much, or more, than citizens of Canada or Europe for the exact same drugs manufactured by the exact same companies.

No, it's not incomprehensible. It just means that someone needs to be better at negotiation or find new medicines. While we're at it, can we pass a law that makes it illegal to sell a new Porsche for over $5000?

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 129):
Capitalism does a number of things very well: it helps create an entrepreneurial spirit; it gets people motivated to come up with new ideas, and that's a good thing.

...because that's how you get people to work and make money that he can promise to give to other people in return for their votes.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 147):
What should you be: pro-business or pro-consumer?

Be what I am: pro-economic freedom. In this case, that means pro-shareholder. It's none of the government's business how companies allocate their resources. Business needs to do what need to do for consumers and for employees to run their business to maximize return for the shareholders no matter what the economy is like. This really isn't that hard.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 147):
How will people EARN the right to free tuition?

Same way they do now: enlist in the military.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 147):
Is a 16th century women's role in literature degree in the same category as a nuclear engineering degree?

Probably not, but that's something for the employment market to decide. The government needs to get out of funding education as much as possible because it will allow these things to settle out. Sure the literature degree might be less likely to generate a return so the loans to pursue that degree should carry interest rates that reflect the risk.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:42 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 151):
but personal things go a long way, and Sanders is not hated as a person by Congress. Can we say the same of HRC..??

Trust me. They'll all find some reason to hate on Sanders regardless. When Obama was first elected, what injustice did he commit other than being black and a Democrat? Even as he hoped to work with Republicans, he got snubbed. So rather than wait to see if Congress and Sanders will be singing kumbaya, I'd rather take my chances with someone I know they're not gonna like, but will have a hard time to deal with. And let's be clear, Republicans may find Sanders's embracing of "Democratic Socialist" as reason to not work with him, and Democrats will no doubt fear being lumped into the same category. In 2018, there are 6-8 competitive seats in play in the Senate, all for the Democrats. The likes of McCaskill, Heitkamp, Manchin, Donnelly, and Tester will not want to give ammo to Republican opponents when they're blue senators in red states.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
A332DTW
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:19 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
Any restriction on campaign funding is a violation of the First Amendment and a reduction in economic freedom

Just because you throw out words like 1st Amendment and freedom does not make you a constitutional expert. I could easily tell you that exponentially wealthy individuals greatly influencing elections is a violation of the 9th Amendment, whereas the power that I hold and my right to influence candidates is limited and reduced. Does that make sense to you? Probably not. Makes sense to me. Certainly doesn't make me an expert.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
The main tenet is actually giving other people's money to the people, but spin it however lets you justify it

No spinning on my part. Redistribution of wealth has been going on since Reagan's time. Only thing is it's been coming out of the pockets of people like me to those at the very top. Spin it as trickle down economics if that lets you justify it.
 
BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:59 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 154):
Just because you throw out words like 1st Amendment and freedom does not make you a constitutional expert.

Of course not. Being able to read does that.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 154):
I could easily tell you that exponentially wealthy individuals greatly influencing elections is a violation of the 9th Amendment, whereas the power that I hold and my right to influence candidates is limited and reduced.

You could say that, but you'd be entirely wrong. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press doesn't mean that the government has to supply you with a radio station or satellites for transmitting television programming. It means that the government cannot restrict the means that you have for speech, not that they must provide the means.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 154):
No spinning on my part. Redistribution of wealth has been going on since Reagan's time. Only thing is it's been coming out of the pockets of people like me to those at the very top.

People say this all the time but there is never any more detail than what you just provided. Specifically what money has been improperly taken from you and given to the wealthy, and no, allowing wealthy people or companies to keep money they've made does not count.

Like I said, I'm in favor of as close to true economic freedom as possible including in matters of the government. Tax competition is a good thing, but I'll likely never been in favor of a publicly financed stadium.
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:50 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
In reality, there is nothing "just fine" about taking what others have rightfully earned to redistribute it without their consent.

That's a matter of perspective, not an absolute. People in modern Asian economies don't complain about their supremely master-planned infrastructure and economy because it is very clear what people need to do if they want to have a middle class standard of living or better. And in return they get clean, efficient, and superbly performing transportation and healthcare facilities. Who would complain about excellent lifestyle and conveniences even if some are government services? Only the blind.

The difference with Americans is that their experience with government services is bad - because they generally are.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
...because that's how you get people to work and make money that he can promise to give to other people in return for their votes.

Um, right - which is why his statement is correct. Boeing717200 seems to think it is the talk of a communist, lolz.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 155):
Specifically what money has been improperly taken from you and given to the wealthy

I don't know if 'improper' is the word, but there are certainly things that royally piss middle class people off. Layoffs that happen under the reign of an incompetent CEO who still receives his parachute payment out the door...a complete reversal in local fortunes when Main Street shops close and are replaced by big box Chinese-junk stores that replace those jobs with expendable minimum wage...a redevelopment project a Mayor grants to an old college developer buddy that razes commercial buildings in favor of a mall with all the same stores that can be found 3 mi away. All of these things are the result of competition, and changing market conditions, yes - but that doesn't mean they don't present the image of a select few getting all the spoils while other people's lives get worse for no fault of their own. Naturally, that pisses people off.

[Edited 2016-01-31 05:52:02]
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mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
I trust the bankers

No point in reading any further. One of the most ignorant statements I have read on Anet. I'm not sure Seb has even said anything that naive.
 
BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 6:38 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
That's a matter of perspective, not an absolute.

It pretty much is if you believe in property rights. The bottom line is that as many economic interactions as possible should be voluntary.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
People in modern Asian economies don't complain about their supremely master-planned infrastructure and economy because it is very clear what people need to do if they want to have a middle class standard of living or better.

Funny thing about those plans is that they go off the rails on a regular basis.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
And in return they get clean, efficient, and superbly performing transportation and healthcare facilities. Who would complain about excellent lifestyle and conveniences even if some are government services?

I would because you pay for all of them even if some of them are not what you need. If people love them that much they wouldn't have to be government and people would pay for them as a private service, unless of course part of the reason people love them is that they are cheap (read: funded by others).

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
I don't know if 'improper' is the word, but there are certainly things that royally piss middle class people off.

And so it comes out: being pissed off and jealous isn't the same as being wronged. It's a bad look.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
Layoffs that happen under the reign of an incompetent CEO who still receives his parachute payment out the door.

The people that matter in this scenario are the shareholders.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
a complete reversal in local fortunes when Main Street shops close and are replaced by big box Chinese-junk stores that replace those jobs with expendable minimum wage

This one gets me. Who the hell decided the mom and pop shop was so great they deserve special treatment? Not customers, otherwise the mom and pop store would have nothing to worry about.

And then the owners of small stores and others will line up at council meetings and such to try and deny the big box stores the permits to operate in the area which is blatant use of the government for economic thuggery. When that happens, there's a villain in this scenario, but it isn't the big box store.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 157):
No point in reading any further. One of the most ignorant statements I have read on Anet. I'm not sure Seb has even said anything that naive.

I want the president that is going to result in the greatest increase in wealth for me. I want to make money as much money as possible, bankers want to make as much money as possible, the bankers seem to think that Hillary is a good option to further that goal and I haven't seen any reason to disagree with them.
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A332DTW
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:27 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 155):
Being able to read does that.

Not quite.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 155):
Freedom of speech and freedom of the press doesn't mean that the government has to supply you with a radio station or satellites for transmitting television programming. It means that the government cannot restrict the means that you have for speech, not that they must provide the means.

9th Amendment is not the same as the 1st Amendment. Remember, read.

I'm not talking about freedom of speech. If you want to interpret spending money as freedom of speech, that's your prerogative. And the Supreme Court would agree with you on that. I don't see it that way.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 155):
People say this all the time but there is never any more detail than what you just provided. Specifically what money has been improperly taken from you and given to the wealthy, and no, allowing wealthy people or companies to keep money they've made does not count.

Post 37 has a lot of detail in those 2 links, which carry their sources. Sources that are consistent across the board, that middle class standard of living is diminishing as wealth keeps "trickling up" to just a sliver of the population.

[Edited 2016-01-31 11:29:16]
 
BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 159):
If you want to interpret spending money as freedom of speech, that's your prerogative. And the Supreme Court would agree with you on that. I don't see it that way.

You're wrong and the Ninth Amendment is exactly why since property rights are not specifically covered elsewhere. The Ninth Amendment is really an, unfortunately somewhat ineffective, attempt to protect the Bill of Rights from being a weapon rather than a defense as Alexander Hamilton had warned about.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 159):
Post 37 has a lot of detail in those 2 links, which carry their sources. Sources that are consistent across the board, that middle class standard of living is diminishing as wealth keeps "trickling up" to just a sliver of the population.

That doesn't answer the question in the least. Person A becoming wealthier and Person B not becoming wealthier does not indicate that any of the gain in wealth of Person A came from wealth that Person B would have otherwise gained, let alone that there was any wrongdoing.
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N867DA
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:34 pm

Libertarians wouldn't choose to live in their own utopia because they would get taken advantage of by the big-box stores and de facto monopolies and go running to the government for recourse. Society has rightfully decided to limit some economic freedoms to prevent this.
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BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:49 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 161):

Libertarians wouldn't choose to live in their own utopia because they would get taken advantage of by the big-box stores and de facto monopolies and go running to the government for recourse.

The power of any business is ultimately derived from its customers. The reason Facebook is so powerful is because people handed them a bunch of their data. And I can't speak for anyone else, but nobody has ever put a gun to my head and made me go to Walmart.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 161):
Society has rightfully decided to limit some economic freedoms to prevent this.

Society has no legitimacy in restricting economic freedom. Such things are just unabashed cronyism. If you want the mom and pop store, go shop there rather than trying to get the government to prevent competition. The reality of it is that some people would rather violate the freedom of others rather than exercise their own.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
A332DTW
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:33 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 160):
You're wrong

Which part is wrong? Your right to that interpretation? The fact Supreme Court agrees with you? Or that I don't believe unlimited and draconian campaign financing is a proper interpretation of freedom of speech?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 160):
That doesn't answer the question in the least. Person A becoming wealthier and Person B not becoming wealthier does not indicate that any of the gain in wealth of Person A came from wealth that Person B would have otherwise gained, let alone that there was any wrongdoing

You don't get it. The way wealth and income (income more so) is distributed across the US is far from what an average, middle class or lower class individual would perceive it to be, or would think is ideal. If you don't think that tax policies that favor wealthy, tax loopholes, stagnant minimum wage, overvalued CEO salaries, and so on is not considered immoral or wrong doing, then again, that's your prerogative. You will vote for who you think is best to keep things the way they are.

No one wants to eliminate the incentive for people to become doctors, entrepreneurs, lawyers, rather to level the playing field. The fact is it's not a level playing field. Don't take my word for it, look at the US census bureau statistics. So all this talk that Sanders wants to eliminate capitalism is hyperbole.

You cannot deny income and wealth inequality does not exist. If you do, you're in the same boat who believe climate change is a hoax, so there's no real discussion to be had. The difference lies in whether you think it's alright or not alright. The difference lies in how much inequality you believe is proper to keep capitalism alive, and how much does more harm than good. Sanders believes that at this point it's doing more harm than good, and many economists would agree.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 155):
Being able to read does that.

Just like pulling back on the yoke of a plane makes me a pilot.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:18 am

I ask these simple questions, Is income disparity growing in the US? Is the middleclass losing their status as middleclass? Are the poor getting poorer, are more people impoverished? Is congress corrupted by lobbyists, special interests? Is Wall Street and the banks gaining back all the wealth lost that was caused by them? Are we gaining back the wealth that was lost because of the banking/financial crisis? Is education slowly impoverishing the youth of tomorrow? Is the Republican Party advocating for the 99% or the 1%? Is the Democratic Party really out to help the 99%, or the 1%?

Is there really a military crisis as far as our defense spending? Do we really want to send young men into harms way to defend those that will not defend themselves? Do we want to continue to enrich our enemy China as we impoverish our citizens here with low wage jobs?

Do we need well paying jobs here in the US as we once had? Do we want true equality in this country, or do we want to continue to hide behind religion to deny it to our citizens? Which of us think we are better off the way the system works with a corrupted government, a greedy financial system which is rigged to take from us and give it to the manipulators of the system?

These are just a few questions, and I ask this last one. Will the Republican party solve this, or make these questions more valid if they seize total power in our next election? I support Bernie Sanders on moral, economic, and financial matters and I agree with Trump on others. I find that I cannot in good conscience trust a Republican to solve any of the problems posed as questions. Bernie Sanders ran a great ad.

[Edited 2016-01-31 18:22:38]

[Edited 2016-01-31 18:23:51]

[Edited 2016-01-31 18:41:33]
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mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:18 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 158):
bankers want to make as much money as possible,

From whom do you think they extract that money?
 
BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 4:16 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
Which part is wrong?

That the government should, or even can, restrict how people spend their money. Even if it is not considered speech under the First Amendment, the Ninth Amendment covers it.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
The way wealth and income (income more so) is distributed across the US is far from what an average, middle class or lower class individual would perceive it to be,

Perceptions are wrong all the time.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
If you don't think that tax policies that favor wealthy, tax loopholes,

How can tax loopholes effect anyone else? The wealthy are bankrolling the country as it is. The things the government needs to buy like aircraft carriers are not priced as a percentage of a surgeon's pay, they're priced in dollars.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
stagnant minimum wage,

Minimum wage should be left alone until inflation renders it a non-factor.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
overvalued CEO salaries,

That is none of the government's business either way. If you think the CEO is overpaid, invest your money elsewhere.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
No one wants to eliminate the incentive for people to become doctors, entrepreneurs, lawyers,

Of course not. Doing that would mean you would run out of other people's money that much faster.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
So all this talk that Sanders wants to eliminate capitalism is hyperbole

True, but Sanders is very open about wanting to restrict economic freedom and erode property rights.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
You cannot deny income and wealth inequality does not exist.

Of course it exists. I love that it exists. I want to create as much wealth inequality for myself as possible.

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 163):
The difference lies in whether you think it's alright or not alright.

It doesn't matter whether anyone thinks it's alright because it is definitely not alright to violate the property rights of others in the name of equality.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 165):
Is Wall Street and the banks gaining back all the wealth lost that was caused by them? Are we gaining back the wealth that was lost because of the banking/financial crisis?

Yeah, actually a lot of people are.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 165):
Do we want to continue to enrich our enemy China as we impoverish our citizens here with low wage jobs?

If you follow the news, you may have noticed that Caterpillar announced up to 10,000 layoffs. Care to take a guess on why that happened?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 166):
From whom do you think they extract that money?

They make plenty from proprietary trading and some from fees. But if my portfolio doesn't perform, I'll take my money elsewhere and the bank will not collect any further fees.
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A332DTW
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 5:56 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 167):
Of course it exists. I love that it exists. I want to create as much wealth inequality for myself as possible.

That's where you're wrong. You don't mind how income and wealth is distributed across the country. I do mind... And so do many Americans.
 
BMI727
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:04 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 168):
I do mind... And so do many Americans.

Feel free to care as much as you want, but don't delude yourself into thinking that people with a lot of money owe the rest of us anything or that it justifies taking that which does not belong to you.

Seriously, this is all elementary school BS. If you're not one of the cool kids you go whine to the teacher that they won't let you play with their toys. And now your solution is to get Bernie to go shake them down for their lunch money? The real solution is for everyone to keep their hands to themselves.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
A332DTW
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 6:14 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 169):
free to care as much as you want, but don't delude yourself into thinking that people with a lot of money owe the rest of us anything or that it justifies taking that which does not belong to you.

Seriously, this is all elementary school BS. If you're not one of the cool kids you go whine to the teacher that they won't let you play with their toys. And now your solution is to get Bernie to go shake them down for their lunch money? The real solution is for everyone to keep their hands to themselves.

I really don't think you understand the whole picture on income and wealth inequality. Anybody with eyes and ears and willingness to listen would understand that nobody is suggesting to punish the rich, rather that they stop mooching off of 90% of the country. But at the end of the day you have no problem with this country descending into an oligarchy. That's how I see it.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:54 am

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 170):
Anybody with eyes and ears and willingness to listen would understand that nobody is suggesting to punish the rich, rather that they stop mooching off of 90% of the country. But at the end of the day you have no problem with this country descending into an oligarchy.

He will be self-assured on such views until he or a loved one are laid off, have a major operation or hospital stay, or whatever. That's just the way it goes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 162):
Society has no legitimacy in restricting economic freedom.

Now it would appear society is something you acknowledge exists, since it did not appear in your sentence in quotations  
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
opethfan
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:55 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 50):

Democratic Socialism is simply putting lipstick on a communist pig to try and make it smell better. Its nothing more than a rebranding of communism.

Goals are the same. Destruction of capitalism, government control and ultimately the destruction of personal liberty, because government simply cannot help itself. Good thing is, Bernie is a short timer.

From the lecture notes of my political science degree (respects to Dr T):



I don't like democratic socialism or most of the points Bernie believes in, but I'm glad he's in the race, bringing topics to attention and making the race a lot less neocon vs neocon, as most American elections seem to be.

I don't like what he says, but I'll defend to the death his right to say it, and I'm glad it's part of the political discourse.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:47 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 134):
You can't handle the truth.

It would be easily handled if you actually said anything truthfull.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
Yeah, I don't think I would be.

You can bring your mum and dad with you.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 155):
People say this all the time but there is never any more detail than what you just provided.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 160):
erson A becoming wealthier and Person B not becoming wealthier does not indicate that any of the gain in wealth of Person A came from wealth that Person B would have otherwise gained, let alone that there was any wrongdoing.

But person A is getting wealthier than person B, 95% of all income increases in the since 2009 in the US have gone to the top 1%, how do you explain that away?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2013/09/11/how-the-1percent-won-the-recovery-in-one-table/
 
Acheron
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting opethfan (Reply 172):

That image is wrong as communism also looks to abolish the State. The final goals is a moneyless, classless and stateless society.

Which is why many agree that the Soviet Union never made it beyond the socialism stage, or that it even was just State Capitalism.

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 142):
Soviet dictators enslaved many countries in Eastern Europe....They were slave owners.

Lovely strawman.

Did they also eat babies for breakfast?.

I think you are mixing up Lenin with Cecil Rhodes or with Leopold II, capitalist heroes

Quoting Caryjack (Reply 142):
What they do have are the wages which allow them to earn a good living in their part of the world.

How delusional. No, they don't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yafZp8VTbc

Also, on the subject of slavery:

Quote:
Nestlé admits slavery in Thailand while fighting child labour lawsuit in Ivory Coast
http://www.theguardian.com/sustainab...g-child-labour-lawsuit-ivory-coast

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
That's a largely meaningless distinction. What difference does it make if the whole factory is taken over by the government, of if the government just taxes the hell out of the profits from said factory?

Worker control=/= State control

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 152):
Why is somebody else not being able to afford to take care of themselves my problem? Or conversely, if it is something I consider a problem, I'll take care of it without the government intervening.

With your lack of empathy and your glorification of greed, I don't expect you to take care of anything really.

[Edited 2016-02-01 06:23:27]

[Edited 2016-02-01 07:07:55]
 
zhiao
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:02 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 173):
ews/wonk/wp/2013/09/11/how-the-1percent-won-the-recovery-in-one-table/

That's a BS statistic. First of all, it's since been revised downwards to 55% (vs 95%), and most importantly it excludes from "income": govt transfers, taxes, and all income that's not taxable including underreported self employment income. So it's almost certainly lower than 55% too.
 
Caryjack
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:54 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 174):
That image is wrong as communism also looks to abolish the State. The final goals is a moneyless, classless and stateless society.

So basically communism is just a giant turd with the shit scrapped off.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 174):

How delusional. No, they don't...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yafZp8VTbc

Your problem is obvious: you've mixed up the continents. Your examples are in Europe and Asia.

The Example I gave was of a North American corporation which constructed and is operating a clothing manufacturing facility in southern North America. I've met the man who operated the facility. I also knew the man who started a sewing school which allowed women to gain employment in that industry.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting zhiao (Reply 175):
First of all, it's since been revised downwards to 55% (vs 95%),

Prove it, find an article that supports this.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:44 pm

Quoting opethfan (Reply 172):
I don't like democratic socialism or most of the points Bernie believes in, but I'm glad he's in the race, bringing topics to attention and making the race a lot less neocon vs neocon, as most American elections seem to be.

I'm glad he's in the race too. I love it when he jumps on stage complaining about the wealthy people of the world with that bottle of VOSS water in his hand every time. It shows how in touch he is with his fan base.

I'm glad Hillary is there to. She shows us there is clearly an "I' in the word "team". I mean, she says "I" about 100 times a speech. Its epic.

[Edited 2016-02-02 09:45:54]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
mham001
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 5:48 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 173):

It would be easily handled if you actually said anything truthfull.

Speaking of "truth", let's get back to your half-truths about the government engineer making $100k in Norway paying "only" 40%.... before you disappeared following the hard questions....

How much VAT? How much fuel tax? How much tax to buy a car? Property taxes?

What is his true tax rate and how much spending power will he truly have after giving his share back to his Uncle?
 
N415XJ
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 8:54 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 178):
I love it when he jumps on stage complaining about the wealthy people of the world with that bottle of VOSS water in his hand every time. It shows how in touch he is with his fan base.
http://moneynation.com/bernie-sanders-net-worth/

Quote:
Bernie Sanders’ net worth is $528,014

.

Here's an article from NPR that estimates it at about 300k, albiet using older data: http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpo...st-wealthy-presidential-candidates
It isn't like he's some multi-millionaire spewing BS about how he's going to 'stand up for the little guy' and throwing footballs around to try and appear 'relatable'. Also, Voss honestly isn't THAT expensive. Stupidly overpriced, but not expensive per se. So far, it looks like "he drinks Voss" and "he's a commie google it" are your strongest arguments against him...

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 178):
complaining about the wealthy people of the world

Complaining about income inequality=/= complaining about wealthy people. Watch this video explaining the problem. Two of the creator's sources have a progressive bias, but those sources actually do properly cite legitimate primary sources: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPKKQnijnsM
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:13 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 180):


Completely useless information about Bernie from an obvious apologist. I mean seriously, you just took time to justify his drinking water habits.  no 

Maybe he can promise on campus VOSS dispensers for his supporters.

[Edited 2016-02-02 14:19:33]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
zhiao
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 177):
Prove it, find an article that supports this.

Here you go!

I can't believe you would doubt me.

http://www.wid.world/#Country:2

Go to: 30.06.2015 Series for the United States extended to 2014: Analysis by Emmanuel Saez.

And I repeat, even this is misleading because it excludes govt transfers (see footnote) and tons of taxable income that go to the lower class. So in reality it's much lower than the reported 59% and certainly lower than the 95% you quoted in your outdated source. For some reason, Bernie continues to use this report even though it's a lie, because when you use tax units and exclude govt benefits, inequality is going to be vastly overstated, which it is. This is why the Saez analysis has seen much criticism, including here:

http://www.ntanet.org/NTJ/65/1/ntj-v...second-opinion-economic-health.pdf

See page Table 1. Using the tax unit as the unit of analysis, and income defined as pre tax and pre transfers (what Saez does), growth is roughly 10x less than when using the household as the unit of analysis, adjusted for declining household size, and INCLUDING govt transfers and deducting taxes. Goes from 3% growth to 30%, and more so if you include health insurance benefits (36.7%). Again, see Table 1. Therefore, Saez and his colleagues are a bunch of liars who are causing deception by intentionally fudging their numbers to make inequality look as bad as possible. Table 1 is proof. They coincidentally chose the income measure that results in the least growth and one which least depicts reality (ie excludes important incomes for the bottom 50%) and does not adjust for household size. Amazing what these Professors get away with...
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 178):
I mean, she says "I" about 100 times a speech.

It's HER opinion. It's HER ideas. It's HER point of view. It's HER thoughts. What next? Third person conversation?

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 181):
Completely useless information about Bernie from an obvious apologist. I mean seriously, you just took time to justify his drinking water habits.

That's pretty big talk from someone who has yet to provide sources to back up the claim that Sanders is a communist and hates America.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 10:30 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 183):
That's pretty big talk from someone who has yet to provide sources to back up the claim that Sanders is a communist and hates America.

Not sure if serious...

I mean seriously, are people really getting this thin skinned about things?   
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
N415XJ
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:02 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 181):
I mean seriously, you just took time to justify his drinking water habits.   

I mean seriously, you took the time to attack his water drinking habits   

"He's out of touch"

*explains why he isn't out of touch*

"Useless information!! Apologist!!!"

Honestly, I'm not really sure why I (or anybody else in this thread) is bothering to try and change your opinion. You spew idiotic half-truths and talking points and tell people to 'google it' whenever they ask for an actual argument. There is a huge number of intelligent conservatives out there who are interested in intelligent debate with the other side. You are obviously not one of them.

I'm still waiting for that dark mystery in his past....
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 185):
Honestly, I'm not really sure why I (or anybody else in this thread) is bothering to try and change your opinion

The fact that you think that is, was, or will ever be a possibility is kind of silly don't you think?

People aren't entitled to things simply because they exist. People have to earn it and if they spent as much time working on what they want as they do complaining about what they don't have the world would be a far better place.

[Edited 2016-02-02 16:08:08]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 12:55 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 184):
Not sure if serious...

I mean seriously, are people really getting this thin skinned about things?

Nothing thin-skinned about it, I was raised to call out liars. You say he hates America, were provided multiple quotes from the guy proving otherwise, and you have yet to discount any of it or modify your statement. To continue to do so, in the face of clear evidence, is lying, unfortunately.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:35 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 187):

Nothing thin-skinned about it, I was raised to call out liars. You say he hates America, were provided multiple quotes from the guy proving otherwise, and you have yet to discount any of it or modify your statement. To continue to do so, in the face of clear evidence, is lying, unfortunately.

Bernie support has no bounds. Maybe he can promise houses and cars next.

It's fine. He thought Castro and Ortega were great and his supporters sport Che T-Shirts so no shock they don't see things for what they are. They agree with him.

[Edited 2016-02-02 18:41:04]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:52 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 188):
It's fine. He thought Castro and Ortega were great and his supporters sport Che T-Shirts so no shock they don't see things for what they are. They agree with him.



Maybe, but he sure knows how we are getting screwed over by the system which is rigged, and corrupted. What amazes me is how so many do not realize this very fact. Maybe ignorance of the issues, blinded by religion?. Of course many on here must certainly come from wealthy families as The Donald says, I know the system, I used the system, I am of the system, so must many be here. What other exclamation can the be?  
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 189):
What other exclamation can the be?  

Umm... People should work for a living, not be handed things funded by others simply because they exist.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:05 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 190):
People should work for a living

Find the quote where he says people ought not to have to work.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 188):
Bernie support has no bounds. Maybe he can promise houses and cars next.

Nice trolling. You are obviously an individual of impeccable integrity of character. Glad my parents taught me what spades look like.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:35 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 190):
Umm... People should work for a living, not be handed things funded by others simply because they exist.

How about mentally disabled and physically disabled from accident, disease, age, birth? They need help do they not? How about no jobs available such as in the Great Depression, or our very own Great Recession? How about the many millions alive today who just cannot afford to live because they had no pensions available to them and just live on SS?

How about subsidized housing for these people? Food stamps? How do these folks deal with inflation. They retired because of age and many other conditions such as I mentioned? There are millions and millions of these old folks still alive who worked probably much harder than you and I ever thought possible. I have to wonder, have you ever noticed the old people working at the minimum wage jobs well past normal retirement age these days? Now shirkers, I agree, but how do we stop them? We cannot use blanket reduction of benefits as proposed by some on the Republican side.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 10:28 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 179):
Speaking of "truth", let's get back to your half-truths about the government engineer making $100k in Norway paying "only" 40%.... before you disappeared following the hard questions....

How much VAT? How much fuel tax? How much tax to buy a car? Property taxes?

I don't really care about vat and other hidden taxes, I don't notice them and where we live there isn't any property tax.

Quoting zhiao (Reply 182):
Here you go!

I can't believe you would doubt me.

Who is talking about tax, it's about wage and salarty increases of which 95% have gone to the top 1%, you haven't proven that this isn't correct.

American is no longer a democracy it's an oligarchy, run for and by the super rich.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 192):
How about mentally disabled and physically disabled from accident, disease, age, birth? They need help do they not?

Completely different. Able bodied people sitting around whining about what they want and don't have is not the same.

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 192):
How about no jobs available such as in the Great Depression, or our very own Great Recession? How about the many millions alive today who just cannot afford to live because they had no pensions available to them and just live on SS?
Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 192):
How about subsidized housing for these people? Food stamps? How do these folks deal with inflation. They retired because of age and many other conditions such as I mentioned? There are millions and millions of these old folks still alive who worked probably much harder than you and I ever thought possible. I have to wonder, have you ever noticed the old people working at the minimum wage jobs well past normal retirement age these days? Now shirkers, I agree, but how do we stop them? We cannot use blanket reduction of benefits as proposed by some on the Republican side.

Temporarily to get people back on their feet, hell yes. On a permanent basis, hell freakin no. A free college education? How about you go to a JC or local college you can afford so you don't have to pay out of state tuition and rack up debt? Need a house? Don't buy a million dollar home on an adjustable rate mortgage like an idiot. Need a job, go get one. Sure, it's not a desk job you wanted, but maybe picking up a hammer or a broom is what you have to do instead. Your grandparents, great grandparents and great-great grandparents did just that because that's what you do when times are tough.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:35 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 194):
Need a job, go get one. Sure, it's not a desk job you wanted, but maybe picking up a hammer or a broom is what you have to do instead. Your grandparents, great grandparents and great-great grandparents did just that because that's what you do when times are tough.

Based on his longtime statements, Sanders doesn't disagree with any of that. He is calling for revision of FTAs with China (just like Trump) to bring those hammer-holding jobs back to the US.

Again, find the quote where he says he hates America or says people ought not to have to work.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:49 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 195):
Again, find the quote where he says he hates America or says people ought not to have to work.


Clearly you're not familiar with his letters as Mayor, or you just agree with him.

[Edited 2016-02-03 08:53:28]
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!
 
zhiao
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Wed Feb 03, 2016 7:08 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 193):

What the hell are you talking about?! You cited a 95% which came from 2009-2012, and i just gave you the update piece saying its 59% (2009-2014). And no it's not merely wages, it's taxable incomes excluding govt transfers. Stop lying and read what you post next time. The link you posted was for 2009-2012 and mine was 2009-2014.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:38 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 196):

Another straw man. Thanks for the lying game.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Bernie's 'America' Ad - Hit Or Miss?

Thu Feb 04, 2016 2:56 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 194):
Temporarily to get people back on their feet, hell yes. On a permanent basis, hell freakin no. A free college education? How about you go to a JC or local college you can afford so you don't have to pay out of state tuition and rack up debt? Need a house? Don't buy a million dollar home on an adjustable rate mortgage like an idiot. Need a job, go get one. Sure, it's not a desk job you wanted, but maybe picking up a hammer or a broom is what you have to do instead. Your grandparents, great grandparents and great-great grandparents did just that because that's what you do when times are tough

Just asking to see how extreme a viewpoint you have. I cannot really argue about those points, that is the way I believe also within reason. My point is that we now have an untrained workforce by millions due to the policies of both parties and corporations being enabled and encouraged by our corrupt government.

We also have to give a well done to the US Chamber of Commerce who as far as I am concerned still are the advocates of illegal immigration which certainly has driven down the wages of available jobs. The politicians, the Bureaucrats have not helped either. Trump is correct when he says we have darn near ruined this country including its work ethic.
When I left school, my home state was a world leader in many areas, now we are a shell without manufacturing to give jobs to those not so fortunate when it comes to higher education possibilities, never mind not speaking English.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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