Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 97): Actually in this very second I am in cologne main station without any issues at all.

I was in Hamburg Station on last Tuesday evening around midnight, waiting for a train to Bremen, it was not a nice place, lots of security, lots of young (I'm guessing immigrant) males wandering around, if I was a female I would not have wanted to be there.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 97): Actually this is quite rediculous. Public life in germany has not changed at all.

You must be living in a different country than my German friends then. They tell me things have changed and a few of my female friends say they are scared to go out in certain places around their cities alone. They feel intimidated. Most of them are very very liberal too and we often have many disagreements on politics so they are not anti migrant but they do see a major issue and change in life on the streets.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 100): if I was a female I would not have wanted to be there.

Bingo . That is what they tell me too. Not nice at all.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 100): I was in Hamburg Station on last Tuesday evening around midnight, waiting for a train to Bremen, it was not a nice place, lots of security, lots of young (I'm guessing immigrant) males wandering around, if I was a female I would not have wanted to be there.

Very sad to hear.

I hope Australia doesn't become that bad one day...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 101): Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 97): Actually this is quite rediculous. Public life in germany has not changed at all. You must be living in a different country than my German friends then. They tell me things have changed and a few of my female friends say they are scared to go out in certain places around their cities alone. They feel intimidated. Most of them are very very liberal too and we often have many disagreements on politics so they are not anti migrant but they do see a major issue and change in life on the streets.

  

Deniers just keep denying  

Quoting OA260 (Reply 101): You must be living in a different country than my German friends then.

Actually I live in Essen in the Ruhr area and today I am going to celebrate on Carnival, and actually my mother was in cologne on January 1st in the morning at the main Station.

I am not blind towards problems arising. People who do not behave must meet the strength of the law, something the government in North rhine westfalia is quite bad at. But the undifferentiated hatred against foreign people, totally out of proportion of what happened, is what annoys me.

Besides, statistics show 33 attacks on refugee camps in Germany in the first month of the year. This violence did not come from refugees. It is this public hatred that fuels such attacks.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 103): Besides, statistics show 33 attacks on refugee camps in Germany in the first month of the year. This violence did not come from refugees. It is this public hatred that fuels such attacks.

Crimes committed by refugees fuel the public hatred. If you want to solve the circle of hate you must fix it where it begins, and that's your country's (and EU's) failed immigration policies.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 102): I hope Australia doesn't become that bad one day...

Seems Australia has common sense compared to Europe, so I am truly jealous of your location. It's strange but if the mass immigration to Europe continues, I can see myself trying to migrate to New Zealand, Australia or Canada some day.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 103): I am not blind towards problems arising. People who do not behave must meet the strength of the law, something the government in North rhine westfalia is quite bad at. But the undifferentiated hatred against foreign people, totally out of proportion of what happened, is what annoys me.

It's not undifferentiated. But people must realise that you don't have to be a racist to think that it's a bad idea to accept this many immigrants in within such a short amount of time. In my opinion it's common sense not to do so as we in Europe already should know by now with loads of problems with integration of previous generations of immigrants.

Let's not let more in than we can handle. And I feel sorry for those migrants coming to Sweden by spending all their savings because of false hopes given to them by the Swedish government, only to be mass deported again. This is not a way to treat migrants who don't own anything (and Sweden thinks it's a humanitarian super power. Yeah right!). Wouldn't it then have been a much better approach from the beginning to have been realistic in the communication that only real refugees will have a chance of obtaining asylum? And that life as an asylum seeker is not glamorous. You don't get a house or a car and you will have to work for your money.

But in Germany and Sweden you are afraid to have a serious debate about any problems associated with immigration of the current scale because you don't want to be called racist. Your political correctness is not only killing you but also killing first the Schengen and since then maybe even the EU if you don't rectify the problems you've created.

A week and a few dozen posts have passed since the last on topic post on this thread.

It's of course natural since the topic of this thread - Danish controversial laws - proved 180 degrees wrong. The new Danish laws were rather streamlining with existing laws in neighbor countries such as Norway, The Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland etc.

We can start a new thread about general issues about the migration crisis and its impact on Europe, or we can continue this thread with off topic posts.

Right now I feel like trying the latter option, and with information about a POSITIVE development:

Beginning the day before yesterday trains are again running between Copenhagen and Stockholm. As they have done for 150 years, only broken by WW2 and the present migration crisis. At Copenhagen main railway station on one platform fences have been built making passport and identity checks possible before boarding the train. The trains can then pass through CPH airport with locked doors, continue over the bridge to Sweden. There Swedish police can enter the train and recheck on the train while it is running.

Before one would catch a train for a few miles from Copenhagen to the underground CPH airport train station, leave the train, take the stairs up into the airport terminal 3, then queue up for identity check and scanning, then take stairs down to the other platform, wait for another train to bring you over the bridge to Malmö, then change train again for the train to Stockholm.

Give it another ten years, then maybe we will have built up new and efficient passport check facilities to compensate for the broken Schengen.

Our president gave a really great speech regarding the refugee crisis:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...nger-just-looking-easier-life.html

It was really refreshing to read angry comments written by delusional eurolefties afterwards.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 105): But in Germany and Sweden you are afraid to have a serious debate about any problems associated with immigration of the current scale because you don't want to be called racist

I disagree. I know the Danish open discussion culture and I know that there in the last 20 years was a tendency in Germany to have a more restrict, yes maybe call it politically correct, discussion culture.

However, this has changed for some years already. It is not the case that Problems are ignored in the press. But my clear opinion is that issues must be taken into proportion.

To me it is equally wrong to pretend the problem is much much greater than it is.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 108): politically correct

The cause of a lot of problems nowadays...

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 108): To me it is equally wrong to pretend the problem is much much greater than it is.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 109): The cause of a lot of problems nowadays...

Sure, but it is as wrong to pretend some events are a real problem when they really are not. For example, in cologne the Karneval went without any problems this year. Just like always. The number of sexual harassment police reports was 100% higher, because there was less tolerance, but this was not linked to migrants.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 110): Sure, but it is as wrong to pretend some events are a real problem when they really are not. For example, in cologne the Karneval went without any problems this year. Just like always. The number of sexual harassment police reports was 100% higher, because there was less tolerance, but this was not linked to migrants.

The definition of "a real problem" can be quite subjective.
What I like to use as a starting point is independent data and statistics.
And what that shows us here in Denmark is that the unemployment rate and crime rate for people originating from muslim majority countries is *significantly* higher than avarage, even for 2. and 3. generation immigrants/refugees.

To address a problem you need to be able to talk about openly.
There is a strong correlation between culture and parameters like crime, rape and unemplyoment rate.
Statistics show that. Political correctness will prevent you from talking about it freely.
That's a bad thing if you want to solve the cause of a problem.

The same data show that immigrants from Asia do better than average on many parameters.
So it has nothing to do with racism.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 110): Sure, but it is as wrong to pretend some events are a real problem when they really are not.

It is also wrong to pretend that some events are not a real problem when it is crystal clear that they really are  

TheSonntag, I know it's very late in the debate, but read this article and put away your prejudices.

http://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/1...cebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

We're simply acting in accordance with reality instead of political correctness which is about to cause unimaginable problems in Europe very soon.

I think Germany should wake up.

Migrant crisis: Greece recalls ambassador from Austria amid EU rifts

Greece has recalled its ambassador to Austria amid sharp divisions among EU states over the migrant crisis.
The move came after Austria hosted a meeting with Balkan states on the migrant issue, to which Greece was not invited.
Greece called the move an "unfriendly act". It said its ambassador was recalled for "consultations".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35658776


-----

Schengen collapses: Now Belgium abandons free movement, with armed guards patrolling road checkpoints with France for the first time in more than two decades.

elgium has abandoned free movement as armed guards patrol road checkpoints with France and mounted officers keep watch at rural crossing points.

The country set up the huge operation to monitor three border crossings and surrounding seaside dunes in the De Panne region bordering France.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...topping-rural-crossing-points.html

From Finnish perspective:

http://yle.fi/uutiset/paaministerin_...mistelevat_lahtoa_irakissa/8696540

"The number of people fleeing from the Middle East to Finland will grow within a month, a government specialist estimated.

According to him for example in Iraq thousands of people are preparing to leave. If last year every day two to three thousand people applied for a passport, now 13 000 applies for one each day and a significant portion of them say Finland is their destination."

Last year we got 30k refugees who arrived mostly through Sweden, now it seems like the flow of refugees might rather come through our eastern border. Through the winter the numbers of people going through it has steadily increased, many of them arrive using old cars they've bought in Russia and abandon after crossing the border. One Indian "refugee" even got frozen to death on Russian side after his car broke down.

This stuff already costed us a billion euros last year, almost twice the amount of all benefits received by Finnish students.

As a Finn I absolutely do not tolerate the idea of cutting from social security, benefits, healthcare and education of Finnish people (exactly what the gov is now doing) just so that the same money gets wasted on asylum seekers, half of whom aren't even legitimate refugees, and most of whom will never get employed no matter what.
And then there's the crime part, all my predictions about increase in harassment and rape have been fully correct.

It will be interesting to see what happens in the summer when weather gets better, asylum seeker men find the weather to be much more pleasant and women have less clothes on. I predict the next summer to be remembered as the summer of love in European history. Unfortunately that love might be rather brutal and one sided. Cologne was only calm before the storm.

Whatever happens I wish all bad and short future to the EUSSR. Hopefully at this time next year I will be able to celebrate the death of schengen forever.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 115): As a Finn I absolutely do not tolerate the idea of cutting from social security, benefits, healthcare and education of Finnish people (exactly what the gov is now doing) just so that the same money gets wasted on asylum seekers, half of whom aren't even legitimate refugees, and most of whom will never get employed no matter what. And then there's the crime part, all my predictions about increase in harassment and rape have been fully correct.

I totally understand your frustration. I do not want 40k here and frankly, I do not want 1 person here, because our bunkers and asylum centers are full. Especially as a non-EU country we should refuse any migrant coming from a safe third country. But our Bundesrätin is the swiss Merkel, so that won't happen. I'm angry at our right wing politicans which refused to take over the aslyum matters when they had the chance to. Another example of utter incomeptence and lies from our state. That's why I don't vote for politicans, but national matters like infrastructure or political changes.

Everyday when I'm watching the news, I truly wonder where my or other countries will stand in 5-10 years time. How much injustice and intolerance do we keep have to tolerate? What bothers me the most is if the mass exodus from the third world will ever stop and if these people will ever go back. I do not wanna pay for their inability to peacefully live next to each other, because their opponents are white, black, sunni, shia, christian or jewish. I'm disgusted that they shout tolerance, but are the prime example of the opposite. It makes me angry that thieves, sexual offenders and violent foreigners get away multiple times and our state is unable to sanction these actions. Next sunday when there is voting day, the 28th February, I hope my country makes the first step in the right direction concerning that matter. I tried to care less about this problem, but I simply can't. Despite our embarrassing weak government, I won't give up on my country. I hope you feel the same way, although it's hard sometimes. For every other person, that now thinks I'm paranoid, I can only say to you I'm a realist. There are clear signs that show in which direction our continent is currently (!) heading to IMHO. It's in our hands to change that. pvijn, I find it remarkable that despite your young age, you care about your countries's future and debate here on a mature level about it. It feels good that another person in my age feels the same way.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 115): Whatever happens I wish all bad and short future to the EUSSR. Hopefully at this time next year I will be able to celebrate the death of schengen forever.

  
Counting on that.

Please continue this discusion in this thread:

European Immigration Thread (by Lesfalls Feb 25 2016 in Non Aviation)

Quoting OA260 (Reply 114): Migrant crisis: Greece recalls ambassador from Austria amid EU rifts Greece has recalled its ambassador to Austria amid sharp divisions among EU states over the migrant crisis. The move came after Austria hosted a meeting with Balkan states on the migrant issue, to which Greece was not invited. Greece called the move an "unfriendly act". It said its ambassador was recalled for "consultations".

Greece is a burden on the EU.

I don't think Austria would be too concerned, if they even really care at all...

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 116): What bothers me the most is if the mass exodus from the third world will ever stop and if these people will ever go back.

Look at the refugees from Bosnia and other yugoslav states during that war. As I understand it, very few went back after the war (something like 10%), and still have trouble integrating - and that is from a relatively European country. Western European countries must assume that these "refugees" will want to stay permanently, and will never want to live as Swiss (or whatever). Empirical data supports that view. It is their duty therefore to keep such immigration to a minimum.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 119):

And what does that have with new Danish laws to do?

Dear Dreadnought, you just won a prize for the 100th consecutive off topic post on this thread.

Dear Dreadnought and others, please read the topic before posting on a thread, and post on a related thread, in this case https://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ums/non_aviation/read.main/2675174

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 118): Greece is a burden on the EU. I don't think Austria would be too concerned, if they even really care at all...

Better to have them in then out and the rest of Europe know it. Greece is still a buffer zone to the East unless they want to let Turkey in??

Bascially all this in fighting is not just about one country its about the whole future of the EU and the Schengen agreement which is all but dead in the water. Major splits within the EU and now all closing their borders and shoving the problem down the line. Yet if a country like Italy or Greece decided to break the rules and mass deportations back to Turkey which is a safe country then the EU would take those countries to the EU courts of human rights so Id say some Western EU countries are a burden on Greece and Italy and their powers to stem the flow. Then of course Mrs Merkel told them they were all welcome to settle there which caused a stampede to cross the water from Turkey. So maybe look further North and see where the burdens lie  

Quoting OA260 (Reply 121): Yet if a country like Italy or Greece decided to break the rules and mass deportations back to Turkey which is a safe country then the EU would take those countries to the EU courts of human rights so Id say some Western EU countries are a burden on Greece and Italy and their powers to stem the flow. Then of course Mrs Merkel told them they were all welcome to settle there which caused a stampede to cross the water from Turkey. So maybe look further North and see where the burdens lie

I would support Greece in sending them back. But I doubt Turkey would accept them.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 122): I would support Greece in sending them back. But I doubt Turkey would accept them.

Very true and the EU are powerless against Turkey to do anything. They dont want to upset Turkey for political reasons. Had it been any other country they would have made them do something.



EU-Turkey migrant deal an illusion, says Hungarian Prime Minister

Hungarian Prime Minister Victor Orban has said the European Union's promise of money and other concessions for Turkey in return for preventing more people leaving its shores for Europe is an "illusion".

"We are begging Mr [Turkish President Tayyip] Erdogan submissively for security on our borders, in exchange for money and promises, because we can't protect them ourselves," Mr Orban said.

"This is making Europe's future and security dependent on the goodwill of Turkey," said Mr Orban.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0225/770640-hungary-turkey-migrants/

Quoting OA260 (Reply 121): Bascially all this in fighting is not just about one country its about the whole future of the EU and the Schengen agreement which is all but dead in the water. Major splits within the EU and now all closing their borders and shoving the problem down the line. Yet if a country like Italy or Greece decided to break the rules and mass deportations back to Turkey which is a safe country then the EU would take those countries to the EU courts of human rights so Id say some Western EU countries are a burden on Greece and Italy and their powers to stem the flow. Then of course Mrs Merkel told them they were all welcome to settle there which caused a stampede to cross the water from Turkey. So maybe look further North and see where the burdens lie

It seems that you are suffering of amnesia. There existed a major problem with refugees in Greece BEFORE Merkel offered to accept them into Germany last spring. Back then the refugees in Greece were either cooped up in camps well below any human hygiene standard, or living in the streets, and were attacked by Greek fascist, like supporters of Golden Dawn.
This is the result of the implementation of the Dublin agreement. Merkel invited the refugees to come to Germany to HELP GREECE and to reduce the burden on Greece, but it was also expected that Greece would guard her borders better and officially register newly arriving refugees instead of just putting them on busses northwards.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 124): It seems that you are suffering of amnesia.

I think you have selective memory ( as usual ) . This problem I have been highlighting for over 2 years on various threads where Greece and Italy were begging for help to ''STEM'' the flow. Countries ignored this including your own until people started drowning in large numbers that suddenly didnt fit well with YOUR politicans. So I am more than most aware of the whole history. One might say that Western European countries were late to the game. I have seen the refugees coming off the ships Piraeus so seen it first hand the influx. It got worse last Summer. More came when Mrs Merkel ''invited'' them. What did they offer the refugees on the Islands when they were overwhelmed? Locals who were on the poverty line themselves had to take over and pull bodies from the sea. Why did Western European governments not send aid and supplies which were asked for as the Greek government where overwhelmed themselves. Helping Greece? I dont think so maybe guilt or as many Germans say a stupid decision? I was in Germany last weekend and speaking to some German friends there I got the real views and from varied politcal stances. They seem to agree on one thing. Mrs Merkel messed up big time.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 125): I think you have selective memory ( as usual ) . This problem I have been highlighting for over 2 years on various threads where Greece and Italy were begging for help to ''STEM'' the flow. Countries ignored this including your own until people started drowning in large numbers that suddenly didnt fit well with YOUR politicans. So I am more than most aware of the whole history. One might say that Western European countries were late to the game. I have seen the refugees coming off the ships Piraeus so seen it first hand the influx. It got worse last Summer. More came when Mrs Merkel ''invited'' them. What did they offer the refugees on the Islands when they were overwhelmed? Locals who were on the poverty line themselves had to take over and pull bodies from the sea. Why did Western European governments not send aid and supplies which were asked for as the Greek government where overwhelmed themselves. Helping Greece? I dont think so maybe guilt or as many Germans say a stupid decision? I was in Germany last weekend and speaking to some German friends there I got the real views and from varied politcal stances. They seem to agree on one thing. Mrs Merkel messed up big tiime.

How do you want to stem the flood? Shoot them on the high seas?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 126): How do you want to stem the flood? Shoot them on the high seas?

Put more pressure on Turkey ? Would you not think that might be a start? Maybe it is not in the interest to putting real pressures like sanctions if they do not secure their borders also? Conflict of interests? Why is Merkel not attacking the route cause before they are allowed to freely cross. Maybe because Greece is a soft target and she cant stand up to others?

Here is the UNHCR report about Greece from 2013:
https://www.unhcr.gr/fileadmin/Greec.../Greece_Positions_July_2013_EN.pdf

It already describes Greece as a key entry point into the EU.

Then there is this article from 2013:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...-11e2-8c3b-0b5e9247e8ca_story.html

There was a humanitarian disaster in making in Greece. So don't act so innocent.

As for Turkey, do you think that Erdogan lets himself be put under pressure? The Syrian refugees are cheap labour in Turkish sweatshops, but nothing else. One reason why a lot of (genuine) refugees want to go to Germany is that every child here has the right (and duty) to go to school, no matter how they came here. In Turkey there is nothing like this.

Jan

Another article from 2013:
http://www.bloomberg.com/bw/articles...1-03/greeces-other-crisis-refugees

or this one:

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europ...refugees-Don-t-get-too-comfortable

[Edited 2016-02-26 04:43:24]

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 126): How do you want to stem the flood? Shoot them on the high seas?

Return a few boats to the origin and and spread in the news that all boats caught will get the same treatment and at the same time also make it clear that it will be impossible to seek asylum within the EU. It should only be possible in camps around war zones. Australia is already doing this with great success.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 129): Return a few boats to the origin and and spread in the news that all boats caught will get the same treatment and at the same time also make it clear that it will be impossible to seek asylum within the EU. It should only be possible in camps around war zones. Australia is already doing this with great success.

How do you do this without entering another country's territorial waters? I doubt that the Turks will allow EU navies to tow back refugee boats to Turkey.
Also, it would be very easy for the refugees to damage their boats when caught.
Pls, Germany has the right of asylum in the constitution. This does not mean that everybody gets asylum, but anybody who claims asylum has to be heard. And the various international agreements on refugees signed by all EU countries basically state the same.
Or does asylum only apply to white European Christians?

Jan

Edit:

An often ignored article in the UN convention on refugees states that refugees under asylum have to obey the host's country's laws and regulations. If not they lose their refugee status and can be deported. This needs to be rigorously enforced. Another issue is that there are a lot of crooks travelling on the coat tails of the genuine refugees, so I would have no problem in interning them first in closed camps until their identities and credentials have been established.

[Edited 2016-02-26 05:15:58]

Btw., the Australian practice of imprisoning refugees on a small impoverished desert island (which gets paid for it, if they had an income of their own the government of Nauru would never accept this) is highly controversial.

[Edited 2016-02-26 05:18:20]

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 130): How do you do this without entering another country's territorial waters? I doubt that the Turks will allow EU navies to tow back refugee boats to Turkey.

Australia did it, they towed the boats back to Indonesian waters, Turkey is a lot closer.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 131): Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 130): How do you do this without entering another country's territorial waters? I doubt that the Turks will allow EU navies to tow back refugee boats to Turkey. Australia did it, they towed the boats back to Indonesian waters, Turkey is a lot closer.

Indonesia does not seem to care. I expect a couple of Turkish frigates taking offence to such a move.

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 130): Or does asylum only apply to white European Christians?

This is like pulling the nazi card.

OK, well you just keep letting in a million migrants into Germany every year from now on and we'll see how Germany copes ten years from now.

In the meantime, stop trying to force your internal politics on to the rest of Europe that didn't ask for all these immigrants. In the future, why don't you pick them up in planes in nearby areas instead of forcing them to go on dangerous journeys towards Europe?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 128): It already describes Greece as a key entry point into the EU.

Is anyone denying it was not ? What is your point? Stating the obvious.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 128): There was a humanitarian disaster in making in Greece. So don't act so innocent.

Exactly stating what I already said  

Rather than quote old things that we already know with selective quotes why not address the real issues. So you think that enough is being done to stop them leaving the Turkish coast in boats? Or do you just think that they should have a light approach to Erdogan and let him do what he pleases?

The point of exit from Turkey is the issue that needs addressed. Turkey is a safe country.

Erdogan uses the current crisus for his own advantage. He doesn't care about the EU, he doesn't really care about NATO. He dreams of his Muslim Brother Sunni empire, just as 100 years ago. He wants to undo all of the Kemalist and Young Turk's revolutions. The refugees are a pawn for him, to blackmail the West.

Btw., the entrepreneur's wing of Merkel's CDU party (not Merkel's wing) wanted to use the refugees in Germany to get around the minimum wage laws, by passing an excwemption that refugees can be paid less than minimum wage. This was shot down by the Social Democrats, as it would have lead to regular workers being sacked and replaced by refugees, who would then work for less.

Jan

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 135): Btw., the entrepreneur's wing of Merkel's CDU party (not Merkel's wing) wanted to use the refugees in Germany to get around the minimum wage laws, by passing an excwemption that refugees can be paid less than minimum wage. This was shot down by the Social Democrats, as it would have lead to regular workers being sacked and replaced by refugees, who would then work for less.

Our right wing national coalition party has advocated exactly the same policy. To me it just proves that right wing liberals are using the refugee crisis as an excuse to ruin European welfare states and push down wages.

One can only pray for destruction of the EU, otherwise this continent of ours will be a real dystopia by 2050.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 132): Indonesia does not seem to care. I expect a couple of Turkish frigates taking offence to such a move.

No reason why a couple of British, French or Italian destroyers couldn't be in the area as well, I somehow doubt Turkey would get into a shooting war with it's NATO allies over the return of refugees to where they belong.