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mham001
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Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Thu Feb 04, 2016 5:23 pm

Amazing really. The same people who lecture the world on environmental and health issues would allow this when there are ready fixes for the problem. All in the name of economic interests...Why even have rules if every manufacturer is allowed to fail up to 100%?

MEPs fail to veto proposal that will allow cars to emit twice the limit of NOx pollution following pressure from pro-car industry countries

MEPs have failed to veto loopholes in air pollution limits on new diesel cars, despite public anger in the wake of the Volkswagen emissions scandal.

Nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions will now be allowed at twice the EU’s 80mg per km limit from 2019 and 50% more from 2021, despite the exemptions being deemed unlawful in a separate vote by the parliament’s legal committee last night.

http://www.theguardian.com/environme...r-loopholes-in-car-emissions-tests
 
A332DTW
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:08 pm

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Amazing really. The same people who lecture the world on environmental and health issues would allow this when there are ready fixes for the problem. All in the name of economic interests...Why even have rules if every manufacturer is allowed to fail up to 100%?

Have you heard about Flint? Infrastructure across the US is crumbling with dangerous consequences "all in the name of economic interests". But by all means, lets keep our priorities straight on what we should be peeved about here in the US... and EU's failure to pass some legislation is right up there.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:23 pm

I don't really get the need for wide use of diesel powered cars in Europe, apart from big trucks and buses of course. Maybe they emit a bit less Co2 than their petrol powered counterparts but who cares, anyone with a brain can see that climate change won't be stopped in time so that's absolutely irrelevant.

No way I'm ever going to buy a diesel powered car, or any car from an European manufacturer for that matter.

[Edited 2016-02-04 14:00:23]
 
mham001
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Thu Feb 04, 2016 9:53 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 1):
Have you heard about Flint? Infrastructure across the US is crumbling with dangerous consequences "all in the name of economic interests". But by all means, lets keep our priorities straight on what we should be peeved about here in the US... and EU's failure to pass some legislation is right up there.

I hear you, Flint is a travesty and the problems seem far deeper than just infrastructure. I have been told several times though when I bring up the glass house issue in a typical US bash-fest that I should start a thread of my own.

How is the air in Flint?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Thu Feb 04, 2016 10:53 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
I don't really get the need for wide use of diesel powered cars in Europe,

Can't talk about the whole of Europe, but I heard something along that line for France. Since they decided to build a large number of nuclear power-plants to produce electricity that was also to be used and still is to heat houses, thus reducing over the years the number of those heated with oil, it was decided to sort off find a compensation for that industry through the use of diesel powered cars.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:19 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 3):
ow is the air in Flint?

Not any better, considering it's an industrial city... Or at least once was.

I think the title of the thread is a little flaimbait considering people are actually, literally being poisoned in a US city and it's only probably just the tip of a very large iceberg resulting from total neglect on infrastructure. It makes me angry every time I drive down the street on potholes, when I think how much is spent on almost everything else except what really matters. But dare anyone suggest we spend just a little bit less on military and a little more on other stuff..
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:33 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
climate change won't be stopped in time

Stopped in time of what? It's not like some magic threshold you cross where things suddenly get worse and after that stay the same level of worse. There are other issues surrounding this but I don't think this defense amounts to much. The warming isn't just going to hit a certain point and never rise from there
 
NAV30
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:53 am

Pollution was in fact far worse in the 1940s/50s, when the vast majority of houses (and factories) were heated by open coal or coke fires - literally clouds of chimney-smoke 'banking up' over all cities and towns, especially in winter. Pollution-wise, things are actually better now than they were in those days. And, given that virtually all new houses and apartments are built on the basis of properly-designed gas central heating, there is every reason to hope that pollution can more or less be kept 'in check' from now on.

Not a perfect solution by any means - but a lot better than things used to be. It's up to the relevant authorities to insist on properly-designed, efficient gas-fired heating and cooking facilities being installed in all new buildings from now on. Helped by state subsidy contributions if necessary.

[Edited 2016-02-04 20:57:47]
 
BestWestern
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:09 am

In comparison to Hong Kong where the housing stock is built without insulation resulting in huge energy bills to keep them cool or warm. The same home comstruction companies own the power companies and lobby the government to not introduce better home building standards.

Capitalism at Its best.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:38 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):

I don't really get the need for wide use of diesel powered cars in Europe, apart from big trucks and buses of course. Maybe they emit a bit less Co2 than their petrol powered counterparts but who cares, anyone with a brain can see that climate change won't be stopped in time so that's absolutely irrelevant.

We can stop climate change in time to present the extinction of the human race...or we can not.

And no, that's not melodramatic. That's some reality. Human civilization cannot survive a 4°C rise over a century. 90+% of humanity could die over a period of a few decades and nothing like our modern civilization would be able to recover.

Fortunately NOx is not a greenhouse issue. It's a relatively short-lived pollutant with a half-life of something like 5 or 10 hours IIRC that breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen. But it can cause smog and choke cities. It's associated with asthma in children and chronic respiratory irritation in all ages. The more that is made at steady-state, the more smog there will be. If NOx production drops, smog drops literally within a hours to days.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:40 am

You get a far better mileage from Diesel egines than you can get from a Petrol engine. Especially for People who drive anything over 40000 km per year a Diesel saves fuel and polution as well.

This whoile Vendetta against VW is sponsored by GM and Ford who are not interested in fuel efficient cars and instead produce cheap but giant pick ups and SUVs . I heard about People who don't cut the engines while Shopping and Keep them running instead.

Don't teach Europeans about Environment, on the bottom line we are better than any statistic made in USA suggests.GM and Frd would Need to invest Billions in new engones that are as fuel efficient as European engines, inclduing Diesel. How nice it is to get the EPA and Washington to assist and be able to carry on with the old Technology.With tesla as the fig leaf of a niche market.

Not speaking about Flint, which was/is a deliberate, criminal poisoning of the local Population. Pumping unfiltered river water, feeding that through water mains in LEAD tubes into the houses falls, in the 21st century, behind third world standard.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:08 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):

There are some theories that point towards a possibility of runaway climate change, were after crossing a certain point there's no return, ever. Even if that won't happen in reality it still looks like the action being taken isn't even nearly enough to prevent temps from rising way too much, so much that it's going to cause a major disaster.
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:25 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
This whoile Vendetta against VW is sponsored by GM and Ford who are not interested in fuel efficient cars and instead produce cheap but giant pick ups and SUVs .

Worse than that:
The chicken tax is still "active". 25% import duty on "light trucks" aka pick up...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax
(i.e. no viable competition.)

Then I would like to compare the percentages of
fuel guzzling light truck/pick up/SUV models used predominatly
for human transport in the US versus Europe.

[Edited 2016-02-05 02:31:14]
 
JJJ
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:51 am

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
All in the name of economic interests

Welcome to the real world.

Just like EPA conveniently forgetting that they could do with particle number and weight limits to combat modern high-pressure gas engines.

It takes just a 50$ filter, and barely affects engine power, but it seems it's too much an investment for big car.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:29 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
No way I'm ever going to buy a diesel powered car, or any car from an European manufacturer for that matter.

Better not buy an American car either, all those SUV and trucks they sell don't have to meet the same emissions criteria as cars do, as you know they sell like hotcakes.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
We can stop climate change in time to present the extinction of the human race...or we can not.

So how are you going to change the sun? From recent papers it appears that solar activity is one oif the major causes of climate change, far more significant than human activity.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
There are some theories that point towards a possibility of runaway climate change, were after crossing a certain point there's no return, ever.

Even if that does happen everyone that you will have known will be long dead.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 14):

So how are you going to change the sun? From recent papers it appears that solar activity is one oif the major causes of climate change, far more significant than human activity.

*citation needed
 
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Aesma
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:31 pm

I think the initial idea to increase the limits was sound, for a couple of years, time for the manufacturers to come up with solutions, but the current decision seems rather to have been written by the manufacturers.

Meanwhile in France the government has finally decided to start the process to get taxes on diesel equal to those on gas. Still a lot to do, for example companies get incentives to run diesel cars, that's why all company cars are diesel ones. Nothing for gas cars, even hybrid ones.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
There are some theories that point towards a possibility of runaway climate change, were after crossing a certain point there's no return

Yes, it's called the methane warming feedback. At some point it could become a self-sustaining phenomenon.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Fri Feb 05, 2016 11:44 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Meanwhile in France the government has finally decided to start the process to get taxes on diesel equal to those on gas. Still a lot to do, for example companies get incentives to run diesel cars, that's why all company cars are diesel ones. Nothing for gas cars, even hybrid ones.

In Germany the tax per cylindrage on Diesel vehicles is much higher than for petrol cars, but the fuel tax is lower.
I agree that in urban areas the NOx emission is a problem, but in rural places, like where I live, it is neglegible. As for fine dust, many people here heat with wood, which produces a lot of fine dust, but again, population density here is low. On the other hand distances are quite big compared to cities and there the lower consumption of a Diesel car, compared to an equal powered petrol car plays a role. I drive a Smart Diesel, which has a fuel comsumption of less than 4 litres per 100 km.

Jan
 
BMI727
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:49 am

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own 

Actually what they did was vote in favor of freedom and treating adults like adults. "Voting to poison their own" would have been a vote to force everyone to drive dirty cars.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
All in the name of economic interests..

Yeah, but you say that like it's wrong or something...

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
I don't really get the need for wide use of diesel powered cars in Europe,

Then buy yourself something gas powered and enjoy the hell out of it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
This whoile Vendetta against VW is sponsored by GM and Ford

   It's ridiculous that we're supposed to be outraged at VW for breaking rules that shouldn't exist anyway and giving their customers a better car when GM and Takata have actually killed people.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
With tesla as the fig leaf of a niche market.

Don't forget the anti-competitive and anti-capitalist regulation Tesla has been abused with.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 12):
Worse than that:
The chicken tax is still "active". 25% import duty on "light trucks" aka pick up...

The chicken tax needs to die yesterday.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sat Feb 06, 2016 7:36 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 14):
So how are you going to change the sun? From recent papers it appears that solar activity is one oif the major causes of climate change, far more significant than human activity.
*citation needed

No citation needed. Most of North America was once buried under deep ice. This ice went away long before CFCs, coal burners, reciprocating engines and 'Carbon' was a flavor of the day.

The sun is in charge of everything, volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes to a lesser extent.

Al Gore, David Suzuki et al can tax people to bankruptcy, and make a change of 0.00003% compared to sun spot activity and volcanoes? Remember the COLD YEAR, 1992, after the eruption of Mt. Pinatubo sent volcanic ash high into the atmosphere and lowered the strength of the sun for about a year all over earth? What could people have done about it? Nothing!





LD4
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 8:49 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 19):

you should read up on what introduced ice ages and what effected the exits.

Then "incurable" incidents still only overlay the man made changes.


see:
The Yellowstone Caldera could go off any time now.
Why should I wash myself or send my kids to school?
Man made schooling an't make a difference anyway.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 9:03 am

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 19):
No citation needed.

Well, that just sums it up.

"I can just make shit up and it's true!"
 
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Aesma
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:41 pm

I'm watching a commission of the French National Assembly about this and have learned that despite the government's no-go, the members have voted to give equal VAT deduction on gas and diesel fuel for companies. With taxes being equalized over 2 or 3 years (12 cents more per liter of gas at the moment, 17 cents a couple years ago), maybe in 3 years when I get another company car (I'm getting a new one this month, diesel) it will be gas powered (or better plug-in hybrid).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
Actually what they did was vote in favor of freedom and treating adults like adults. "Voting to poison their own" would have been a vote to force everyone to drive dirty cars.

There is no freedom involved when talking about the air we all share. You can't drive anything you want without impacting others, just like you can't drive piss drunk without putting others in danger.

And as my example proves, I'm not free to choose what I drive as I drive what my company gives me. Even the CEO (of a Global 200 company) drives a diesel powered car.
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 2:06 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):

amount of VAT does not have an impact on nonenduser use.
i.e. as a commercial entity I get any VAT ( if billed ) back from the tax office.
My invoices will show the proper amount of VAT billed to the final consumer.
The amount received under "VAT" is then transfered to the tax office.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:25 pm

Apparently in France you can't do that with gas, I'm not sure why. And for cars that are not considered "utilitarian" you can only deduce 80% of the diesel VAT (0% if gas). My car is in fact utilitarian since the rear seats are removed, so 100% of the VAT is gotten back by my company.
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 6:40 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):

Well, for Germany
first they add "Mineralölsteuer"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_tax#Germany
and then VAT ( 19%)
that then is the indicated price at the pump.

for fuel bills on my business car
I can deduct VAT as it is a business expenditure.

[Edited 2016-02-07 10:51:54]
 
andz
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 7:50 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Well, that just sums it up.

"I can just make shit up and it's true!"
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):
We can stop climate change in time to present the extinction of the human race...or we can not.

You can start by typing "prevent" and not "present"
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Sun Feb 07, 2016 10:06 pm

Quoting andz (Reply 26):

he, who is without fault may throw the first dictionary.
( Cruz 'Carpet Bomb' Plan Pummeled By General (by Aaron747 Feb 3 2016 in Non Aviation) )
 
N1120A
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 3:14 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):

I don't really get the need for wide use of diesel powered cars in Europe

Efficiency and lower CO2
 
photopilot
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
This whoile Vendetta against VW is sponsored by GM and Ford

Say WHAT???? You're telling us that GM and Ford wrote the computer code for VW's bypassing of the pollution specs. The simple fact is that VW couldn't meet the required pollution specifications and CHOSE to CHEAT to beat the system. VW broke the law on purpose rather than pay the cost of proper engineering. And then you go and say that somehow GM and Ford are the cause.
Boy, that takes some chutzpah to say two American companies are responsible for VW's problems.
 
N1120A
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:01 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 29):
The simple fact is that VW couldn't meet the required pollution specifications and CHOSE to CHEAT to beat the system.

Actually, they could meet the requirements, just at the cost of either efficiency or power (no one is quite sure yet, the efficiency one is the real issue).
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 7:52 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 29):

it is still two different things.

What you use as a lever.

And it still remains open if litigation will actually succeed.
( Look back to the Toyota gas pedal pruhaha that has vanished into thin air
but has cost Toyota dearly)


Why you use that lever.

Same for why some legislation in the US is strongly targeted to the advantage of local industry.
( while all the time the US is mooing over perceived disadvantages abroad.)

There still is a 15% import duty on "small trucks" protecting the 1930ties tech level polluting vehicles from local manufacturers.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:31 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 25):
for fuel bills on my business car
I can deduct VAT as it is a business expenditure.

That is correct and to make it just a bit more complicated, you have to pay fringe benefit tax for the private use of the Company car whoich then also is subject to 19% VAT.

Fpor Petrol or diesel used on ommercial vehicles the full amount of VAT is deductible and can be charged against VAT billed and the rest of the fuel bill is a deductible Business expense.
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:28 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 32):
private use

Turns into sale of services "use of car" with the VAT obviously added in.
alternatively when you are too lazy to record private usage
it is 1% of list value per month accounted as additional income.
i.e. using a VW Phaeton ( @~15k€ extremely cheap to buy barely used )
does not make much sense for "co use" as "virtuial income" is computed
from list prize.
 
mham001
Topic Author
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:24 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 5):

Not any better, considering it's an industrial city... Or at least once was.

It's actually pretty good today...http://cfpub.epa.gov/airnow/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_state&stateid=23&mapcenter=0&tabs=0

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 5):
But dare anyone suggest we spend just a little bit less on military and a little more on other stuff..

If we were to get off diesel and gas transportation, we could dramatically reduce our military. I believe this is a major factor in Germany's reticence towards alternative powertrains - they are not footing the bill to keep the oil lines open. If we could cut our military by 1/3, Uncle Sam could buy ~7 million Volts and give them away - every year. And all that money stays home. I think both Bush and Obama realized this and their administrations pushed electric/hybrid over the oil options. We were well led in that department. It is the future - push for it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 9):

Fortunately NOx is not a greenhouse issue.
NITROGEN OXIDES (NOx)
dwb.unl.edu/teacher/nsf/.../nitrogen.htm
University of Nebraska–Lincoln
Nitrous oxide is a greenhouse gas. As well it contributes to ozone depletion in the stratosphere, as discussed in the fact sheets Greenhouse Effect and Ozone - Stratospheric and Ground-Level. Nitrogen oxides are an important component in acid deposition, as discussed in the fact sheet Acid Deposition (Acid Rain).


Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
You get a far better mileage from Diesel egines than you can get from a Petrol engine.

That advantage has dropped considerably when you compare similar sized modern engines but hybrids beat them all. Cumulative hybrid sales in Europe are pathetic compared to Japan and US.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
This whoile Vendetta against VW is sponsored by GM and Ford who are not interested in fuel efficient cars and instead produce cheap but giant pick ups and SUVs .

I had heard this conspiracy theory was going around the less-educated Germans, a little logic makes that look foolish. VW is a bit player in the US market and known among consumers as unreliable. Diesel cars in the US are a small niche, Ford and GM have little to no interest in diesel cars. If they wanted to conspire against foreign competitors, they would have chosen a company that is a true threat.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 10):
Don't teach Europeans about Environment, on the bottom line we are better than any statistic made in USA suggests.

You sound as though you have been misled by your leaders with that false sense of superiority. Fact is, your auto emissions do not match those in California and 13 other states and have not for years - if ever. Nor do they match US federal standards today (I don't know about the past) and nowhere in US regulations will you find an option to cheat those standards by 100%. Just laughable.
You were sold the CO2 or else story but now European research suggests there were little savings in CO2 from using diesel. Meanwhile, your air quality deteriorated and the air is often filthy. There are no maps, research anywhere tthat claims European skies are cleaner than the US. It's not even close and getting worse every year.

http://www.who.int/gho/phe/outdoor_air_pollution/phe_012.jpg?ua=1

Quoting JJJ (Reply 13):

It takes just a 50$ filter, and barely affects engine power, but it seems it's too much an investment for big car.

I agree and this should happen as direct injection gas gains more ground. It does highlight the difference in the equipment necessary for containment.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:53 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
It's actually pretty good today...http://cfpub.epa.gov/airnow/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_state&stateid=23&mapcenter=0&tabs=0

I certainly hope you're not saying that although the water is poisoned, at least the air is breathable.

My major beef is how the US, in general as I realize there are some exceptions, could be so negligent with infrastructure. And what makes me even more angry is seeing how state and federal budgets are allocated, as if it's a nonissue that pipes are hundreds of years old and our roads unkempt. The US engineered the interstate system, pioneered aviation, revolutionized the automobile but you wouldn't know it if you saw our infrastructure report card.
 
mham001
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting A332DTW (Reply 35):
I certainly hope you're not saying that although the water is poisoned, at least the air is breathable.

My major beef is how the US, in general as I realize there are some exceptions, could be so negligent with infrastructure. And what makes me even more angry is seeing how state and federal budgets are allocated, as if it's a nonissue that pipes are hundreds of years old and our roads unkempt. The US engineered the interstate system, pioneered aviation, revolutionized the automobile but you wouldn't know it if you saw our infrastructure report card.

No, I simply asked how the air was in Flint, and you said not good. That doesn't seem to be the case however. That is all.

Your major beef however is going to be with the local and state governments. I can't say I want the feds involved with the water pipes in my house, which I understand is the primary problem in Flint. Is that incorrect?

As for roads, another (mostly) state problem. Roads in Cal suck yet we pay exorbitant money towards their upkeep in drivers fees, taxes and gas tax. They siphon off the money for other pet projects and we can do nothing. Liberals should be embarrassed with what they have done to this state. I can't speak about others.
 
A332DTW
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:01 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 36):
Is that incorrect?

The problem is the pipes running under the city, not just your home.

In Michigan the Republican held administration and legislature have neglected infrastructure for years, and through orders of emergency managers has decided that spending money in that regard is not of priority. Go figure. Only recently have they decided to increase the gas tax after voters already decided that it would take too long and has not worked in the past.
 
WIederling
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RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
There are no maps, research anywhere tthat claims European skies are cleaner than the US.

You are missing out on population density differences. The US is sparsely populated and deindustrialised.
While Europe is heavy on population and manufacture. ( EU core countries @200/km² US @40km²)
i.e. the US should have much lower (5 times? ) polution numbers than Europe but it is just a 5th below.

Lawyers don't produce as much pollution as industrial manufacture does.

A significant part of China's emissions are linked to products consumed by the US. i.e. in proper carbon accounting this would have to be added to the already oversized carbon footprint the US has ( for nothing much actually: heating or cooling badly insulated habitats, running petrol at a gallon over 10miles through inefficient "small" trucks.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
It's not even close and getting worse every year.

That is a major misinformation on your part and for Europe.
 
mham001
Topic Author
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Tue Feb 09, 2016 1:51 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 38):

You are missing out on population density differences.

Go visit the WHO website and you will see how they collected data and how wrong you are.

Yes, the maps get progressively worse, every year.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 38):
oversized carbon footprint the US has ( for nothing much actually: heating or cooling badly insulated habitats, running petrol at a gallon over 10miles through inefficient "small" trucks.

Yet, if we are so bloody inefficient in comparison to mighty Europe, why are the skies of your urban centers (that eliminates the density canard) so much worse than the US? For example, why is NYC metro area of 20 million cleaner than a Paris metro of 12 million?

And then why do you need to give a pass to your auto manufacturers on standards they meet elsewhere in the world?
 
mham001
Topic Author
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:09 am

The complicity of the government agencies in protecting the corporations while poisoning their own is staggering. In tonight's news......

Europe's diesel cars repeatedly flunked pollution tests
by Danny Hakim
European officials knew that Volkswagen diesels fell short of pollution limits years before the company became engulfed in an emissions cheating scandal, records show.

And they also knew that diesels across the industry had problems that were similar, if not worse.

The European Commission, the European Union's executive branch, performed road tests on emissions from seven diesel cars starting in 2007, but it did not reveal what cars or manufacturers had been involved in the tests when it published the results in 2011 and 2013. Internal documents obtained through the European equivalent of a Freedom of Information request, along with records recently made public by the commission, detail the results.

The testing found what independent research has shown for some time: Diesels are emitting far more nitrogen oxides on the road than in laboratory tests. Nitrogen oxides lead to respiratory and cardiovascular illnesses, smog and acid rain, and cause premature deaths.

A VW Golf that met regulatory standards when tested in the lab exceeded those limits by nearly three times when tested on the road. But that was markedly better than a car made by Renault, the Clio, whose emissions exceeded regulatory limits by as much as seven times.

A Fiat Bravo and a Fiat Punto and a BMW 120d were among the other diesels tested, and had emissions ranging from two to four times higher than regulatory standards when tested on the road.

Notably, the Golf that was tested was a version of the car produced before VW began installing software aimed at cheating emissions tests. A second Volkswagen tested, a Passat, was a prototype made by VW with the latest filtration technology and that was lent to the commission specifically for the tests.

More recent testing by the commission of several cars designed to meet the latest European standards, known as Euro 6, showed that they averaged four times higher than regulatory standards when tested on the road. Some were eight to nine times higher, the commission said.

Volkswagen declined to comment.


http://www.afr.com/news/world/europe...ed-pollution-tests-20160208-gmo6c1
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: Europe Votes To Continue To Poison Its Own

Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:06 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 39):
Go visit the WHO website and you will see how they collected data and how wrong you are.

Yes, the maps get progressively worse, every year.

Could you please provide a specific link for your statement ?
TIA!

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