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Dano1977
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Sun Feb 07, 2016 12:45 am

I feel sorry for the Ecuadorian embassy staff.

Having his smug looking face at you every day can't be a nice thing to go through, especially when there are allegations of rape that still need answering.

Just one other point...

Where is he getting the money to pay high cost QC's (Lawyers) to keep putting legal arguments up?

Surely the people he stiffed who put up the bail money aren't foolish enough to keep digging in their pockets?

[Edited 2016-02-06 16:56:13]
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:06 am

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 51):
Where is he getting the money to pay high cost QC's (Lawyers) to keep putting legal arguments up?

His gullible supporters, who all agree that this is a witchhunt. I saw a tweet earlier from one of the BBC radio stations, where incredibly, a lady from a group called "Women Against Rape" was adamant that the charges against Assange were bogus.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Sun Feb 07, 2016 1:22 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 29):
A victim of himself and his actions, nobody else's.

Well said.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 32):
2) The US espionage case against Assange is not something he dreamt up from paranoia - it is a fact. It exists and has been repeatedly confirmed by US Justice Department and the FBI.

He brought it upon himself.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 50):
While I support that information was published, which certain people would rather hold confidential, but for me the line was crossed when he published the names of locals cooperating with US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, instead of anonymised versions, stating that they deserve whatever was coming to them for working with the US.

I agree.

He crossed the line with that.

Another example of his poor decision making and not thinking about the consequences of what he chose to release.

Also, ironic of him so say; "stating that they deserve whatever was coming to them for working with the US." - yet he thinks he could mess with the USA and not get what was obviously coming to him... the fool...

[Edited 2016-02-06 17:26:48]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:08 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 53):
Another example of his poor decision making and not thinking about the consequences of what he chose to release.

A number of his former close associates have left his little clique over operational & editorial issues, and the former German representative resigned after being suspended by Assange for "disloyalty, insubordination and destabilization". A noted Icelandic MP and campaigner also left the group, claiming a distinct lack of transparency, and poor communication in the organisation:

Q. Why did you leave WikiLeaks?

A. There is not enough transparency within the organization about decisions and not good enough communication flow and in order for a good communication flow, you have to have good structure and know whose role is appointed to each other. I just wanted to have a debate about this with sort of the core group of volunteers and I couldn’t. I tried for a long time and it didn’t happen.

One of the biggest criticisms on WikiLeaks, just like WikiLeaks criticizes government for their lack of transparency, there was a big criticism of WikiLeaks for not being transparent enough about their financial system, their donations. It would have just been so easy to make that just completely open instead of defending it all the time and having these speculations. I don’t think there was any reason to suspect that there was anything wrong with the financial aspect, it’s just that it needed to be more transparent.

http://news.nationalpost.com/news/ca...ks-spokeswoman-birgitta-jonsdottir

Kind of ironic. But it seems to be part of a pattern where Assange is concerned - his way, or no way.


I think people call that "The Messiah Complex"
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Sun Feb 07, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 54):
Kind of ironic. But it seems to be part of a pattern where Assange is concerned - his way, or no way.

I believe there has been na article published describing how Ass..ange wanted to maintain monopoly and absolute control over the dissemination and reprinting of the files and threatening certain newspaper (Guardian?) to sue them over copyright infringement or intellectual property theft. He who stole the files in the first place... Priceless.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:49 am

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 47):
lawful arrest

"illegally detained" is the phrase you are looking for.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
opethfan
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:19 am

I do find it funny that many posters are claiming that extradition attempts to the US are bogus; then they don't address the articles that suggest something to the opposite is possible:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 46):
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...rnment-jet-wait-copenhagen-denmark

Is it possible that Mr Assange is a fool who inadequately wraps his tool? Yes.

Is it possible that the United States of America considers whistleblowers such as Assange to be political enemies that should be arrested, "enhance interrogated," held without charge, etc? Yes.

Neither of these claims are really up for debate. There is either evidence or clear logic supporting both of them.

So what kind of cognitive dissonance is required for so many posters to be going around saying "oh he should just face his accusers like anyone who isn't wanted by the most powerful forces on Earth for running an organization that leaks classified information" and "I definitely know that he did / did not put a thingy on his thingy before he placed his thingy in someone's thingy" ?

It's a unique case with unique circumstances and it really should be handled in a unique manner.
 
N1120A
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:57 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 1):
That's just it - if he insists he did not commit sexual assault - he can prove it in a Swedish court.

He doesn't need to prove anything. The Swedish government odoes.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
He ran to the Ecuadorian embassy in an attempt to escape justice.

Try he ran to escape an extraordinary rendition to the US, for being a whistleblower.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 9):
Are there any formal charges laid against Assange in the US?
Quoting polot (Reply 21):
You realize that the US has charged Snowden with a crime (espionage)? The US has not charged
Assange with anything.

All signs point to a sealed indictment, which will get unsealed as soon as they get him to an extradition friendly country.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 38):
And it is damn clear that the UK would give a sh*t about international law.

The UK even ignores EU law, which is an even more serious issue.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:57 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
All signs point to a sealed indictment, which will get unsealed as soon as they get him to an extradition friendly country.

A 5 second search on the Internet shows up an article from the Washington Post that confirms how unlikely it is that Assange could be prosecuted in the US.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/julian-assange-unlikely-to-face-us-charges-over-publishing-classified-documents/2013/11/25/dd27decc-55f1-11e3-8304-caf30787c0a9_story.html

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
The UK even ignores EU law, which is an even more serious issue.

Which laws would they be then?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
N1120A
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:40 am

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 59):
Which laws would they be then?

How long did they not allow opt outs from naked death ray machines? Over a year after the EU said it was against the law.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 59):
A 5 second search on the Internet shows up an article from the Washington Post that confirms how unlikely it is that Assange could be prosecuted in the US.

As if he really should believe them.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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scbriml
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:59 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
All signs point to a sealed indictment

Which signs are those?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Try he ran to escape an extraordinary rendition to the US, for being a whistleblower.

Doesn't say much for the US following the rule of law, does it?   

He ran to escape justice. Unless he's going to spend the rest of his natural in the Ecuador embassy, he'd be vulnerable to being renditioned from anywhere in the World.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 12:56 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Try he ran to escape an extraordinary rendition to the US, for being a whistleblower.

Assange isn't a whistleblower; if anything, that status goes to Manning, etc. Assange is merely the publisher of leaked documents. There is a vital difference.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 60):
How long did they not allow opt outs from naked death ray machines? Over a year after the EU said it was against the law.

OFF TOPIC

Manchester Airport was the only UK airport to have them AFAIK. They were allowed to keep them for 12 months by the EU after the ban. They were removed in October 2012.

They now use milimetre technology scanners.

A spokesman for the EC said: "It is important to remember that we are now coming to the end of what was always a trial and while the European Commission authorised the use of the ionising radiation 'Backscatter' scanners back in 2010.
"Technology has taken significant steps forward since then allowing for increased privacy and a move away from radiation technology.
"The Commission takes note of Manchester Airport's intended upgrade to radio frequency based millimetre wave technology scanners offering the highest protection to the privacy of those subjected to screening."
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
bhill
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:20 pm

Quoting opethfan (Reply 57):

Is it possible that the United States of America considers whistleblowers such as Assange to be political enemies that should be arrested, "enhance interrogated," held without charge, etc? Yes.

Neither of these claims are really up for debate. There is either evidence or clear logic supporting both of them.

So what kind of cognitive dissonance is required for so many posters to be going around saying "oh he should just face his accusers like anyone who isn't wanted by the most powerful forces on Earth for running an organization that leaks classified information" and "I definitely know that he did / did not put a thingy on his thingy before he placed his thingy in someone's thingy" ?

WTF???!!! He leaked CLASSIFIED information!!! What the fuck to you think ANY nation that got outed would do? Sit back and take it?? The espionage/spying profession from antiquity is a dangerous trade to be in!! You get caught....you go to jail...or get shot/hung/decapitated....either way, if you are going to go solo, with out the CIA/KGB/Mossad, etc to run interference or trade yer ass when you get caught TOUGH SHIT....Ya shoulda thought of that when you were selling this shit from the get go....

Dumbass....
Carpe Pices
 
WIederling
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 5:58 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 64):
Dumbass....

uninformend I*  

CLASSIFIED is a source limitation not a sink limitation.
( and this goes for any other secret information thingy.)

As a qualified holder of said information You may not divulge it to others.
Though if this is information has some higher law illegal aspect that limitation
may be voided. core premise to allow judging in the Nuremburg trials.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials

I would interpret this as breaking of base laws, constitutional details, international treaties and human rights issues
can not be masked by a CLASSIFIED tag.

To make it short: Assange is neither US citizen nor US military member
and thus the limitations you cite do not apply.

[Edited 2016-02-08 10:00:13]
Murphy is an optimist
 
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 6:01 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 64):
WTF???!!! He leaked CLASSIFIED information!!! What the fuck to you think ANY nation that got outed would do? Sit back and take it?? The espionage/spying profession from antiquity is a dangerous trade to be in!! You get caught....you go to jail...or get shot/hung/decapitated....either way, if you are going to go solo, with out the CIA/KGB/Mossad, etc to run interference or trade yer ass when you get caught TOUGH SHIT....Ya shoulda thought of that when you were selling this shit from the get go....

Dumbass....

Who cares, what he did was still morally right considering the mess GWB's government caused in the Middle East.

Hey, I have a deal. You get Assange if you also take two million Iraqi / Syrian / Afghan refugees with him, refugees who are now flowing to Europe thanks your governments actions.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
bhill
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:07 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 65):
To make it short: Assange is neither US citizen nor US military member
and thus the limitations you cite do not apply.

Potatoe potato....then he should not have any concerns about stepping out....right? Keep in mind....the US Constitution applies to ANYONE that comes to the US....if you fuck up here you still have the full force of it in your defense...yer ass might get deported, but you still GET a trial. As for his publicity, if you think the press would not be all over this , there is no way his ass could be "Gitmoe'd"

Quoting pvjin (Reply 66):
Who cares, what he did was still morally right considering the mess GWB's government caused in the Middle East.

Hey, I have a deal. You get Assange if you also take two million Iraqi / Syrian / Afghan refugees with him, refugees who are now flowing to Europe thanks your governments actions.

"morally" right??? Whose? Yours? Blame the British for the mess in the ME...they started that looong ago. Tell ya what....you give us Assange, we will give him a fair trail.....


...then shoot him....
Carpe Pices
 
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pvjin
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 8:11 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 67):
"morally" right??? Whose? Yours? Blame the British for the mess in the ME...they started that looong ago. Tell ya what....you give us Assange, we will give him a fair trail.....

No, you started the current mess by invading Iraq. Before that ME was much more stable under rule of dictators like Saddam. NATO support to chaotic forces during the Arab spring only made things worse.

Admittedly your British puppets are also at fault for participating in the Iraq invasion and should also take their share of refugees.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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scbriml
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:41 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 64):
WTF???!!! He leaked CLASSIFIED information!!!

No he didn't.   

Others leaked the information, he published it. It's a subtle but significant difference. It's not even clear if Assange has actually committed a crime under US law, is it?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
wingman
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
No, you started the current mess by invading Iraq. Before that ME was much more stable under rule of dictators like Saddam.

Hold on a second..going backward in time from 1991 (and please recall the full list of willing participants in that event, with neighboring Arab countries begging for protection), I count at least four major regional wars (Iran-Iraq, and the Israeli wars of 1973, 1967, and 1973). In addition to that you had almost continuous acts of terrorism by one party or another.

The whole region is a mess and bhill is right in one regard, if any outside region can lay claim to being at least partly responsible for the shit show...it's Europe. Zero question and simply undebatable. But my own opinion is that Arabs and Israelis are 95% responsible for their own dismal state of affairs. Israelis are nasty and brutish and Arabs are by and large just clueless as to what it takes to be a semi competent nation-state.
 
WIederling
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:27 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 70):

We know a bit on what "made" members in the coalition of the willing driven by US badgering.
Mostly by unsavory combinations of ( sometimes public ) benefits and always behind the stage heavy arm twisting.

What I haven't understood is what leverage the US had on Primeminister Blair at the time.
( Did they advise about possible accidents to his kids? So sorry!)

It must have been something compelete despicable in view of him converting to Catholicism
as a religion that knows about confession and forgiveness of confessed sins however big those might have been.

And we do know today that this coalition was completey bullshi*ed with fake information
into following the US war drive.
And all that worked on by bible thumping imbeciles.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:51 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 70):
Arabs are by and large just clueless as to what it takes to be a semi competent nation-state.

to add:
There were a range of laicistic oriented arab nations around rising from the ashes.
Definitely not perfect in view of dictatorial leadership but "on their way"
on a path to gender equality, good education and improving health care and a middle class dominated Nation with potential for real democracy.

All have been furnished with fake democracy made in USA
and then a deep dive into Islamism and faction fighting.

My conclusion: all these nations were ruined due to them showing competency in rising from ashes.
.. and just to prop up an apartheid regime and a kingdom stuck in medieval times, ruled by
religious fanatics so far around the bend they can't see that bend anymore.
Murphy is an optimist
 
wingman
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Mon Feb 08, 2016 11:59 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 71):
What I haven't understood is what leverage the US had on Primeminister Blair at the time.
( Did they advise about possible accidents to his kids? So sorry!)

John Major was PM during the first Gulf War, and it had a coalition of some 30+ nations with your own government financing the costs with billions of dollars. Even the Russkies were on board. I'd say that was an "all hands on deck" affair. Not much cajoling required.

But if pvjin was actually referring to Gulf War 2 (an event I fully agree was one of the great colossal blunders of US history), then he actually forgot about Gulf War 1, which I would then add to the list of shit shows in the ME which preceded his reference (the ME being a nice little oasis of stability prior to whatever US invasion he's referring to).

Either way, that region hasn't been "stable" or anything other remotely positive descriptive word in a 100 years.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Tue Feb 09, 2016 12:30 am

Gulf War 1 in general was a mess, from the vague reply given to Saddam Hussein by the US ambassador when he raised the issue of Kuwait, over the PR campaign to get support for the war with the US public (remember Nurse Nayirah?), to the issue of potentially doctored satellite photos that proved Iraq was a threat to Saudi Arabia (a reporter with the St. Petersburg Times obtained satellite images from a commercial company, which showed nothing but empty desert where the US government claimed that several hundred of thousands Iraqi troops were poised to invade).

Quoting scbriml (Reply 69):
It's not even clear if Assange has actually committed a crime under US law, is it?

New York Times v. US made it clear that publishing such information is protected by the Freedom of the Press section of the first amendment. And again, since neither Assange or WikiLeaks are based in the US, applying US laws to them is a bit of an issue as well.
 
WIederling
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:21 am

Quoting wingman (Reply 73):

to nitpic Gulf War 1 :: Iraq ( as champion for the US ) versus Iran
Gulf War 2 / Iraq War 1 :: Bush41, a US official telling Saddam taking Kuwait is ok and all that jazz
Gulf War 3 / Iraq War 2 :: Bush43 and his coalition of the paid and bamboozled willing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Tue Feb 09, 2016 10:33 am

Back to the topic.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 55):
"illegally detained" is the phrase you are looking for.

And you're wrong yet again, although you should be congratulated on your high level of consistency in this thread. Guantanamo is a clear and obvious example of arbitrary and illegal detention. To compare Assange and his self imposed confinement to that would be, and is, absurd.

Quoting opethfan (Reply 56):
It's a unique case with unique circumstances and it really should be handled in a unique manner.

No its not. Its currently a single case of extradition to Sweden to face interrogation on the sex charges (if we set aside the bail jumping warrant). Whether the US eventually files for extradition is neither here nor there to the current situation. Assange is currently evading an extradition order he himself challenged on four separate occasions and lost each time. And while some posters on here seem to enjoy using the term 'rendition' (when they mean extraordinary rendition) Assange himself seems to understand its the LEGAL process called extradition he is laughably asking to be granted immunity from.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 65):
what he did was still morally right

And any moral right he may have had disappeared the moment he made it clear he didn't give a shit about the lives he endangered.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
bennett123
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Tue Feb 09, 2016 7:48 pm

If the US were going to try to get him extradited, why not in 2010.
 
bhill
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 73):
New York Times v. US made it clear that publishing such information is protected by the Freedom of the Press section of the first amendment. And again, since neither Assange or WikiLeaks are based in the US, applying US laws to them is a bit of an issue as well.

From 1971.....right. So he has not a thing to fear then.....But I guess only a Grand Jury can decide that. And this is a bit different that the Pentagon Papers issue. The person who gave the information to Assange, a US Service Member, who WAS found guilty of giving him this information.."Manning was ultimately charged with 22 offenses, including aiding the enemy, which was the most serious charge and could have resulted in a death sentence."

Regardless.....not sure what Assange was really trying to accomplish....nothing has changed....except prolly tighter access to information, and the world spins on....but karma is a bitch.....works both ways.
Carpe Pices
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:31 am

@ Bennett123
"If the US were going to try to get him extradited, why not in 2010."

Good question, although there is evidence that the US did at least consider the option.

Some years ago Wikileaks published cables from the Australian Embassy in Washington indicating that the Australian Government would not stand in the way of an extradition request from the US should such a request be made.

The Australian Government played down the issue, stating that the Embassy was simply doing its job and needed to be prepared for any eventuality. Neither Mark Dreyfus (the Attorney General) nor Julia Gillard (Prime Minister) denied the report. The then Opposition pressed the Government on the issue but since forming a government have reverted to the usual bipartisan stance on the issue.

It is reasonable to conclude that the US were considering the option, even if no request was made.
A man may learn wisdom even from a foe - Aristophanes
 
bennett123
Posts: 9625
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Wed Feb 10, 2016 7:24 pm

Perhaps the US/UK do not WANT him to come out.

His current location may suit them very nicely.
 
CPH-R
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Wed Feb 10, 2016 10:11 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 77):
And this is a bit different that the Pentagon Papers issue. The person who gave the information to Assange, a US Service Member, who WAS found guilty of giving him this information..

Daniel Ellsberg would probably have been found guilty of something as well, had information about the break-in at his psychoanalyst, and its ties to the ongoing Watergate scandal, not made it near impossible to prosecute him.
 
bhill
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Thu Feb 11, 2016 7:37 pm

Pretty sure the Nixon Administration had other concerns on thier minds...
Carpe Pices
 
opethfan
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RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Fri Feb 12, 2016 8:03 am

Quoting bhill (Reply 63):

I'll happily address your points and message as a whole when its presented to me in a legible way. And preferably in English.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 75):
No its not. Its currently a single case of extradition to Sweden to face interrogation on the sex charges (if we set aside the bail jumping warrant). Whether the US eventually files for extradition is neither here nor there to the current situation. Assange is currently evading an extradition order he himself challenged on four separate occasions and lost each time. And while some posters on here seem to enjoy using the term 'rendition' (when they mean extraordinary rendition) Assange himself seems to understand its the LEGAL process called extradition he is laughably asking to be granted immunity from.

Of course it's unique. It has its own Wikipedia article. At least 3 nations are involved. There are political ramifications. Uniqueness of situations is exactly why we have judicial systems and not just allowing the police to be judge, jury, and executioner. Different cases are adapted to the circumstances. Choosing a jury, publication pans, judge vs jury, etc.

Suggesting otherwise is idealistic and naive.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12888
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Fri Feb 12, 2016 9:05 am

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 75):
And you're wrong yet again,

so, you know better than the properly appointed UN panel that has the sole purpose of determining exactly that?

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 75):
Guantanamo is a clear and obvious example of arbitrary and illegal detention.

It is a flat out crime against humanity and it is a shame that a bunch of people don´t find themselves detained in Den Haag.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 68):
It's a subtle but significant difference. It's not even clear if Assange has actually committed a crime under US law, is it?

The shortest definition of Freedom of Press in the US flavor i have ever heard was "Free to publish whatever they could legally find out". So, he probably didn´t break any laws.
However, we live in a time where the US deems it legal to dish out death penalty w/o trial or Jury for non-US citizens outside the US, so what is legal and what isn´t, isn´t really a concern.
Especially not with an electorate that cheers to Donald Saddam Trumps torture statements, well... at least now we get a live view how 1932 must have felt.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
TristarAtLCA
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:16 pm

RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Fri Feb 12, 2016 10:30 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 83):
so, you know better than the properly appointed UN panel that has the sole purpose of determining exactly that?
http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Issues/Detention/A.HRC.WGAD.2015.docx

Thats a link to the whole judgement. The term 'illegal' appears nowhere.

But I can also read legal opinions, where they find the panels findings flawed on many grounds. The dissenting opinion in Appendix I makes interesting reading as does the opinion of this lawyer:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...feb/05/un-julian-assange-wikileaks

and the opinion of a previous UK Attorney General who just happens to be a human rights lawyer:

"The reason why this lasted 550 days was he spent those days challenging the extradition all the way to the Supreme Court," Grieve added.

"That's what it actually too so long. It's rather difficult to conclude that there was anything arbitrary about this process."

http://www.getbucks.co.uk/news/beaco...-mp-dominic-grieve-brands-10849300

So it's not that I know better, but I profoundly disagree that Assange has been detained by any authority bar his own self confinement and he has never been denied access to legal mechanisms.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 83):
It is a flat out crime against humanity and it is a shame that a bunch of people don´t find themselves detained in Den Haag.

Absolutely. 100% agree with you, but in the context of the debate my post was accurate.

[Edited 2016-02-12 02:32:47]

[Edited 2016-02-12 02:57:35]
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
tommy1808
Posts: 12888
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Fri Feb 12, 2016 1:32 pm

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 84):
"That's what it actually too so long. It's rather difficult to conclude that there was anything arbitrary about this process."

disproportionate use of legal means is a recognized form of harassment. Unless you can name a couple of rape suspects where nation states made similar tohuwabohu to interview them, you´d have a point. In this case the law is fairly clearly used to punish without trial and jury.

Quoting TristarAtLCA (Reply 84):
Thats a link to the whole judgement. The term 'illegal' appears nowhere.

well..

Quote:
Such a practice of law in general corresponds to the violations of both rules proscribing arbitrary detention and ensuring the right to a fair trial, as guaranteed by articles 9 and 10 of the UDHR and articles 7, 9(1), 9(3), 9(4), 10 and 14 of the ICCPR.

bear with me since English isn´t my mother language, but i guess "illegally detained" sums that paragraph up quite well.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
bennett123
Posts: 9625
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Fri Feb 12, 2016 5:48 pm

In what sense is he being denied a fair trial.
 
TristarAtLCA
Posts: 636
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:16 pm

RE: Julian Assange, Arbitarily Detained!

Fri Feb 12, 2016 6:39 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 85):
disproportionate use of legal means is a recognized form of harassment.

Disproportionate use of legal means??? He was harassed into launching three court cases??? Ridiculous.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 85):
Unless you can name a couple of rape suspects where nation states made similar tohuwabohu to interview them, you´d have a point.

I don't know any Thomas, though I'd imagine the numbers are very low, but are you saying a rape case should be dropped because someone evades due process for long enough?

I would however imagine the number of unknown rape suspects being granted asylum at the Ecuadorian embassy would also be pretty low, as would the ability to stump up £200,000 bail deposit.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 85):
but i guess "illegally detained" sums that paragraph up quite well.

Being pedantic the term doesn't appear in the document. Not being pedantic, it sums up arbitrary (say illegal if you must) detention if the conditions are met. Paragraph 86 doesn't come close. From the Guardian article I linked to earlier:

'First, they said he had been detained in prison for 10 days in 2010 “at the very beginning of the episode that lasted longer than five years”. They claimed “the arbitrariness is inherent in this form of deprivation of liberty”. This is palpably absurd. Assange was detained pending possible extradition. If his detention had been arbitrary he could not have challenged it, and been released on bail. But that not was what happened. The three-and-a-half years he has spent as a fugitive from justice cannot affect the lawfulness of his original imprisonment.'

The reasons for his arrest, detention and his access to legal mechanisms are clear.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you

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