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Aaron747
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Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:35 am

Interesting article on Breitbart - surmising (correctly) that Trump was correct with most of his claims against GWB on both 9/11 and the Iraq War. And at Vox and other more leftist media outlets, analysts are saying this has reduced the GOP to the bizarre position of not calling him out enough on clearly illegal proposals, while saving most of their shock and outrage against Trump for positions about 9/11 and Iraq that are actually facts. But the real question is: is this what he really thinks? Or is this all just a bizarre strategy for de-legitimizing Bush and taking debate airtime away from the establishment folks? Or both!

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ack-on-911-strategy-or-conspiracy/

With Bush a spent force, it is less clear why Trump would revive the attack. The issue re-emerged when Trump was asked by the moderator whether he still believed, as he indicated in 2008, that George W. Bush should have been impeached for “lies” in the Iraq War. After his reply, Jeb Bush said: “While Donald Trump was building a reality TV show, my brother was building a security apparatus to keep us safe.” So Trump responded by discussing 9/11.
 
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moo
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 10:08 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
analysts are saying this has reduced the GOP to the bizarre position of not calling him out enough on clearly illegal proposals,

What illegal proposals?

Isn't part of the job of an elected official to change the law to make certain actions legal and illegal? Its not illegal to propose something which is currently illegal, if the intention of implementing said proposal is to pass laws to enact it.

If you don't like the proposals, don't vote for him.

In elections, standing parties and candidates should be able to say and propose anything - otherwise you limit elections ever more to a narrow range of "acceptable" thoughts and actions potentially leaving some people unrepresentable.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
But the real question is: is this what he really thinks? Or is this all just a bizarre strategy for de-legitimizing Bush and taking debate airtime away from the establishment folks? Or both!

It is about keeping Jeb Bush from maintaining any momentum going forward. The issue as this election progresses and more parties drop out is that the Establishment candidates start to gather power and swing votes away from Trump. Rubio has weakened himself enough that donors are looking at Jeb Bush again. By bringing up 9/11 Trump is wrecking Bush's argument about having good advisors and connections with his father and brother. Trump specifically uses 9/11 to weaken Bush's national security and foreign policy stances of which Trump doesn't have much of a strong stance either.
 
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pu
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:36 pm

I think 9/11, the wars and the Great Recession should be repeatedly brought up. They have damaged America more than anything in most of our lifetimes and they all happened under 1 president. If America selected presidents by popular vote things would have gone differentlly (at least on the issue of foreign wars): people should be reminded of the consequences they chose for themselves by voting for parties/candidates in elections past.



Pu.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:08 pm

I think that some family members should be excluded from the political arena, or zoo whatever, but not a brother who was the President at the time of the worst attack on U S soil in history. I agree with Trump on this issue. The buck stops here, and it should. I will not even get into economic issues for this same brother.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:13 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 1):

Isn't part of the job of an elected official to change the law to make certain actions legal and illegal?

Well, technically not for the President. The President's job is to execute the laws made by Congress.

Now, he also has to sign off on laws passed by Congress and in that sense he can affect the laws that are passed, he can write bills and then find a member of Congress to sponsor them, but he does not make laws.
 
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seb146
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:37 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
It is about keeping Jeb Bush from maintaining any momentum going forward.

Jeb! is having a hard time gaining or keeping momentum. Partly because he is not seen as folksy and down home as his father and brother and partly because of his economic policies.
 
cedarjet
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:51 pm

It is the height of hypocrisy if not something even more bizarre and dishonest for Republicans to say Bush kept America safe. The worst terrorist attack in history happened on his watch, and Bush was personally briefed a month before it happened with amazing foresight, and the warning was ignored. And afterwards? Here is what Bush thought about the biggest mass murderer of American civilians:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o

Trump is absolutely right on this. The Bush family shouldn't show their faces in public, let alone run on a platform of national security.
 
mham001
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 7):
Bush was personally briefed a month before it happened with amazing foresight, and the warning was ignored. And afterwards? Here is what Bush thought about the biggest mass murderer of American civilians:

Oh nonsense history revision. They knew something was coming but they did not know targets or methods. What were they supposed to do, shut down the country? With hindsight, it was possible they could have pieced some things together but find specific suspects with box cutters - the intelligence apparatus wasn't there. And most don't like the apparatus that might catch it, the Patriot Act.

And his attitude about Bin Laden was to not appear obsessed about a man he could not find, giving Bin Laden moral victory while they believed (rightfully so) that his influence was degraded.

If one wanted to play that blame game, they could go back to the day that Bill Clinton let Bin Laden get away. Or even back to the colonial powers that created the Bin Laden wealth with their lines in the sand, as well as the mess we see today.

Playing that game is very unproductive however.
 
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pu
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:40 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
They knew something was coming but they did not know targets or methods. What were they supposed to do, shut down the country?

No, all that was needed was effective airport security.

...This had been outsourced to bottom-of-the-barrel private companies hiring ex-cons and homeless people due to a failed dedication to the 'private enterprise is best' and privatisation model of government services. Also, tell me about the Bojinka plot and tell me again with a straight face that no one had any idea about "targets and methods" of Islamic terrorists.

If his argument is that Bush kept America safe, then on day 1 of the Bush presidency I assume they had a comprehensive review of national security strengths and weaknesses. The fact that they let the continued errors of all previous administrations carry forward is not the fault of Clinton et al., it is the fault of Bush and the Republican-majority congress who had the power to change everything unilaterally right away but chose not to change anything.

Bush had the responsibility to keep air travel safe. He failed. If your answer is that all previous presidents failed as well, then there is no point to electing a Bush again because they are going to simply endorse the failures of a previous administration and change nothing.





Pu.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 5:57 am

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
What illegal proposals?

More torture perhaps?

Best regards
Thomas
 
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seb146
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:17 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
And most don't like the apparatus that might catch it, the Patriot Act.

Patriot Act was a knee-jerk reaction to something that could have been prevented. Checking visas and following up on flight schools training people who only wanted to glide.

Also, Bush knew EXACTLY where Bin Laden was. Yet, he pulled troops and invaded Iraq because WMDs and making the world safe. You know, like it is now with IS.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:43 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 9):

No, all that was needed was effective airport security.

Hardly. What was needed was communication in the Intelligence community. At the time, box cutters were allowed aboard aircraft.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:52 am

Quoting moo (Reply 1):
What illegal proposals?

Golly gee, I suppose unconstitutional garbage like 'banning all Muslims from entering the US'...

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
If one wanted to play that blame game, they could go back to the day that Bill Clinton let Bin Laden get away.

While we're at it - why not Reagan? Selling weapons to Iran to fund terrorists killing impoverished Nicaraguan socialist voters certainly sets an interesting precedent, no?
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:13 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Golly gee, I suppose unconstitutional garbage like 'banning all Muslims from entering the US'...

The constitution can always be changed. Another large terror attack orchestrated by muslims on US soil and I bet a constitutional change like this would happen overnight.
 
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moo
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:24 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 10):
More torture perhaps?

Best regards
Thomas
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 13):
Golly gee, I suppose unconstitutional garbage like 'banning all Muslims from entering the US'...

Again, both acts are currently illegal, both proposals are not. Laws can be changed, and elections are the time when the electorate get to vote on people wanting to change those laws.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Well, technically not for the President. The President's job is to execute the laws made by Congress.

Now, he also has to sign off on laws passed by Congress and in that sense he can affect the laws that are passed, he can write bills and then find a member of Congress to sponsor them, but he does not make laws.

POTUS cannot pass legislation, but he and his senior executive team play a heavy role in creating legislation - just as Congress plays a heavy role in interfering in the running of the country rather than staying solely in the realm of legislation.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:29 am

Quoting moo (Reply 15):

Again, both acts are currently illegal, both proposals are not. Laws can be changed, and elections are the time when the electorate get to vote on people wanting to change those laws.

Torture is banned by international treaty, the US may be able to make a law allowing torture, but they can't make it legal.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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moo
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:11 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 16):
Torture is banned by international treaty, the US may be able to make a law allowing torture, but they can't make it legal.

Best regards
Thomas

Yes they can - they can withdraw from any international treaty. You think there is actually such a thing as proper international law? Nope, its just what the signatories to certain treaties decide what to enforce against each other.

This is the reason there is such a difference between international approaches to nuclear weapons programs around the globe - Iran found itself under massive economic restrictions, while Pakistan, India and Israel found that only a few individual countries were restricting sale of certain nuclear related stuff directly. Guess who was the signatory to the NPT out of those four...
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:13 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
The constitution can always be changed. Another large terror attack orchestrated by muslims on US soil and I bet a constitutional change like this would happen overnight.

The process that would take for this to happen would be so long and tedious that:

1. It would not pass muster in a court. A document that specifically singles out a group to discriminate against them would go against other amendments (most notably the Right to Due Process).
2. You need 2/3 of each chamber in Congress to pass this. Even putting red state Democrats on board is still not 67 votes.
3. You need 3/4 of states to approve this. Not all states are under one party control and some that are are blue states which I guarantee will be the last ones to even think about approving it.

Can a law like this happen overnight? Certainly. Can a constitutional amendment? I would think most politicians would be wiser and know that such an uphill climb will do more harm than good in the end.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 12:43 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 16):

If you are referring to UN treaties, they are only binding on States that have acceded to the relevant Convention and a State may renounce its accession with effect one year from the date of renouncement. This applies to the UN Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment.

Further, a State may sign and ratify a Treaty but may at the same time make reservations, limiting the extent to which it will be bound by its provisions. The US has listed several reservations. For full list see
https://treaties.un.org/pages/ViewDetails.aspx?src=TREATY&mtdsg_no=IV-9&chapter=4&lang=en#EndDec

So yes, it would be possible for the US to make laws allowing torture that would be "legal". Either way, accession to the treaty has not prevented "enhanced interrogation techniques" or "extraordinary renditions".
 
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pu
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:18 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Hardly. What was needed was communication in the Intelligence community. At the time, box cutters were allowed aboard aircraft.

????

Wow, what a forgiving voter you are - where administrations and congress can never be held accountable for the failed policies they inherited and failed to change?

The Bojinka Plot and the 'blinking red' intelligence situation forced any reasonable minded president to secure air travel. Bush chose not to do anything.

Box cutters allowed on aircraft "at the time" means that was a good idea and Bush couldn't change it with a Republican-controlled Congress? Box cutters allowed on aircraft "at the time" means Bush isn't responsible? Besides, secure cockpit doors, a very cheap measure, prevents most every hijack scenario.

This tired argument that because the air travel security system was a joke at the time Bush came to office means he is not responsible for the air travel security system defeats the whole purpose of elections and changing administrations. By month 10 the president is responsible for the entire policy of the US government: including unsafe air security measures.

Anyway, if you really feel that sharing intelligence was the right answer and better security "hardly" the answer; this nevertheless was a Bush failure as well.



Pu.

[Edited 2016-02-16 10:23:24]
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 6:24 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 20):

A bigger deal than the box cutters was unsecured flight deck doors. Even when closed and locked they were way too easy to break down.
 
mham001
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 10:25 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 20):
The Bojinka Plot and the 'blinking red' intelligence situation forced any reasonable minded president to secure air travel. Bush chose not to do anything.

The Bojinka plot in January, 1995 was all about bombs. But you go ahead and look through that rose-colored hindsight.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:02 pm

Oh yay, now Dickhead Cheney has injected his unwanted rose-colored views into the Trump discussion:

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/0...rump-219313?cmpid=sf#ixzz40Lb4WFzo
 
Rara
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:05 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 7):
And afterwards? Here is what Bush thought about the biggest mass murderer of American civilians:

Bush rarely made sense in his speeches, but here he does. The focus on the persona of Osama Bin Laden was weird. The idea that Barack Obama was a stronger president for killing Bin Laden was equally weird. 9/11 could have (and would have) happened to any president. Also, any president would have eventually found Bin Laden and have him terminated.

If anything was "responsible" for 9/11, it was decades of interventionalist and mostly ill-advised policy in the Middle East, and George W. Bush was hardly responsible for that. He WAS responsible for the grave and costly mistake that was the Iraq War.
 
sierrakilo44
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:13 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
my brother was building a security apparatus to keep us safe


OK so an illegal war, hundreds of thousands dead, maimed, tortured, rendered homeless, psychologically traumatised, born deformed from depleted uranium, an entire region destabilised and thrown to the wolves, millions seeking refuge, is now referred to as "just building a security apparatus" ?!
Is there a vomit emoticon?
 
bennett123
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:43 pm

If Trump is a Liberal Democrat, then does that make Cheney.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Tue Feb 16, 2016 11:58 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):

The constitution can always be changed.

"Always." Changing the Constitution requires a level of political unity of a sort not seen in this country for a long time. To repeal the 1st amendment and allow open institutional religious discrimination would be next to impossible.

Quoting Pu (Reply 20):

????

Wow, what a forgiving voter you are - where administrations and congress can never be held accountable for the failed policies they inherited and failed to change?

The Bojinka Plot and the 'blinking red' intelligence situation forced any reasonable minded president to secure air travel. Bush chose not to do anything.

Box cutters allowed on aircraft "at the time" means that was a good idea and Bush couldn't change it with a Republican-controlled Congress? Box cutters allowed on aircraft "at the time" means Bush isn't responsible? Besides, secure cockpit doors, a very cheap measure, prevents most every hijack scenario.

I think that you misunderstand me. I was responding to the claim that better airport security would have prevented 9/11. It absolutely would not have as they did not have any contraband on them. Box cutters were permitted, so whether airport security was being run by the TSA (which didn't exist at the time) or by private contractors, airport security would not have stopped the attacks.

However, better intelligence very well COULD have stopped the attacks.
 
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seb146
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:44 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 24):
If anything was "responsible" for 9/11, it was decades of interventionalist and mostly ill-advised policy in the Middle East,

There was an attack on the World Trade Center early on under Clinton. Not much happened between the United States and Afghanistan, IIRC. The actual attack and the actual lead up to the attack all happened under Bush's watch. Clinton had the intel and passed that on to the Bush administration.

And, again, Bush knew the whole time where OBL was. He used OBL for elections. Any time they dropped in the polls, the same tune of "Osama is still out there and we are the only ones who can keep you safe from him!" was bandied about.

If you listen now, the right wing candidates are still rattling the saber of war like that is the only thing that we want and only way we can be safe. War, death, kill, blood.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 7:35 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 18):
Can a law like this happen overnight? Certainly. Can a constitutional amendment? I would think most politicians would be wiser and know that such an uphill climb will do more harm than good in the end.

A muslim extremist sets off a nuke or dirty bomb in a major population centre and you'll get support from both sides of the political spectrum ASAP. Imagine if say 50,000 were killed along with several 100 thousand casualties, billions in damage and a no go zone for a few decades, that would be a game changer.

Quoting sierrakilo44 (Reply 25):
Is there a vomit emoticon?

Here you go   
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:45 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
The constitution can always be changed. Another large terror attack orchestrated by muslims on US soil and I bet a constitutional change like this would happen overnight.

You don't seem to understand just how difficult it is to actually make that happen.

We've only had two in the last half-century... the most recent one having been proposed in 1789.
It took 202yrs to push the thing through!




Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
A muslim extremist sets off a nuke

Meh, if that happens, I doubt they'll waste time screwing around with the Constitution.
They probably really will find out if sand glows or not, with much of the country looking the other direction.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 1:19 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
A muslim extremist sets off a nuke or dirty bomb in a major population centre and you'll get support from both sides of the political spectrum ASAP. Imagine if say 50,000 were killed along with several 100 thousand casualties, billions in damage and a no go zone for a few decades, that would be a game changer.

I don't think the Constitution will be the first thing Congress will want to update. It didn't happen after 9/11, nor did it happen when Soviets placed missiles in Cuba (and back in those days, anti-Communist feelings were strong).

Rather, what will happen is a swift declaration of war and an authorization to use nuclear force. Whichever entity was responsible and whichever countries still harbor the entity(ies) will surely learn how a mushroom cloud looks like.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:04 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
It didn't happen after 9/11

Not enough people died in 9/11, 50-100,000 would be game changing.


Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
Rather, what will happen is a swift declaration of war and an authorization to use nuclear force. Whichever entity was responsible and whichever countries still harbor the entity(ies) will surely learn how a mushroom cloud looks like.

If the US goes of half cocked and starts nuking countries then I believe that will be the end of you, chances are like 9/11 you'll go after the wrong country.
 
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lesfalls
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:14 pm

News these days can just trick people to belive that a certain group did it when actually the party you trust and pay taxes too did it.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:31 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
Rather, what will happen is a swift declaration of war and an authorization to use nuclear force. Whichever entity was responsible and whichever countries still harbor the entity(ies) will surely learn how a mushroom cloud looks like.

If the US goes of half cocked and starts nuking countries then I believe that will be the end of you, chances are like 9/11 you'll go after the wrong country.

Writing the paperwork to push a button will be far easier than mustering support for the paperwork to permanently amend the Constitution. Unless 3/4s of the states signal to Congress that they're ready to approve the amendment in a timely fashion as soon as they receive it, an amendment will surely die in Congress. Cooler heads will prevail for an amendment of this magnitude to pass with 2/3s of each chamber.

"All Muslims will be denied entry to the US"

Fine. Where does that leave existing Muslims already settled in the US? Does that mean they can't ever leave?

What about American Muslims who are abroad?

"All foreign Muslims will be denied entry to the US"
Still doesn't address the first question.

If an amendment requires a lot of words to state its points and conditions, it will fail, and because it goes counter to the 1st Amendment (Congress shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...emphasis on the bold part), the amendment will be doomed in courts before the states can even get it approved.
 
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seb146
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:47 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 31):
I don't think the Constitution will be the first thing Congress will want to update. It didn't happen after 9/11, nor did it happen when Soviets placed missiles in Cuba (and back in those days, anti-Communist feelings were strong).

Some would argue that Patriot Act, in part or in whole, is unconstitutional. Look at all the people who are living peacefully, practicing their religion peacefully and are under threat of being banned or even being hurt by other American citizens. That would fall under First Amendment issues, I would think.
 
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moo
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:00 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 35):
Some would argue that Patriot Act, in part or in whole, is unconstitutional.

Parts of the Patriot Act has been ruled to be unconstitutional, and as such those parts have been amended. But no court has ruled that the entire act is unconstitutional, despite being given many many chances to do so.
 
D L X
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:20 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
They knew something was coming but they did not know targets or methods. What were they supposed to do, shut down the country?

I can tell you what you DON'T do is go around talking up how great a job you did "keeping us safe" after the worst attack on America in history. How bloody insulting to the deceased and their families.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 8):
Oh nonsense history revision.

History revision indeed. Yours.
 
mham001
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 37):
I can tell you what you DON'T do is go around talking up how great a job you did "keeping us safe" after the worst attack on America in history. How bloody insulting to the deceased and their families.

An absolutely useless non-answer. I don't know why you even bothered.

Do you have anything constructive as to what they were supposed to do with the vague information they had at the time?

Or is it more important to just sling cheap arrows at "Bush"?
 
D L X
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:59 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 38):
An absolutely useless non-answer.

It's not a non-answer to the politically literate. Jeb brought this on himself when he said "my brother kept us safe." BS. That's an insult, and Trump's retort was absolutely appropriate. Without "my brother kept us safe," Trump does not call him out.

You want to be intellectually honest? Call this what it was: an own-goal by Jeb.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Trump's 9/11 Gambit

Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:17 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 39):
It's not a non-answer to the politically literate. Jeb brought this on himself when he said "my brother kept us safe." BS. That's an insult, and Trump's retort was absolutely appropriate. Without "my brother kept us safe," Trump does not call him out.

  


Be careful what you say is smart advice, but these folks throw so much bullshit, they cannot remember and that other people can remember

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Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos