When Is It Time To Buy A Home?

Aesma · Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:54 pm

pros : I have some money aside, a stable job, low enough income in a high priced place that I qualify for a big government incentive : a 60 000€ free credit I can start repaying no sooner than in a decade, so I would need a smaller bank loan, at currently low rates, real estate has been going up here for 20 years straight even in the middle of the financial crisis.

cons : I don't have enough to buy my dream house so it would be a 2/3 bedrooms flat, I'd like to live elsewhere (but my job is here), all my assets would be tied up in the flat at first (I intend to still be able to save 15% of my income, to which my company adds about 10%).

Thanks to the downpayment and cheap credit the monthly costs would be equal to renting. The flat would be new.

What are your thoughts, experiences ?

Kiwirob · Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:00 pm

Probably right now, regardless of minor fluctations property pretty much always increases in value. You might not be able to afford what you want now but a start on the property ladder is a start, you can always sell and trade up when your circumstances improve.

If the costs are the same as renting you would be mad not to buy.

IMissPiedmont · Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:05 pm

You make it sound as though there is something wrong with a two or three bedroom, single story house. And people thing we in the US are overly materialistic.

But yes, since your government is willing to pretty much buy it for you, do it right away.

mad99 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:12 pm

The first place we bought was not our dream home but we could afford it and thanks to the government allowing us to put 10k tax free every year towards it its paid off. We rent it out now.

When rent are close to mortgage payments then i'd go for it.

slider · Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:12 pm

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
low enough income in a high priced place that I qualify for a big government incentive : a 60 000€ free credit I can start repaying no sooner than in a decade, so I would need a smaller bank loan, at currently low rates,

So you qualify for a zero interest loan thanks to your government?

Cripes, don't tell Bernie Sanders here in the States. We already had a housing crisis due to banks being pressured to qualify people for loans for which they weren't qualified.

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
cons : I don't have enough to buy my dream house so it would be a 2/3 bedrooms flat

Don't take this the wrong way, but boo hoo. If this is your first house and your income, as you stated, is not high, then you shouldn't be even contemplating the words "dream" and "house" together in any way whatsoever.

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The flat would be new.

And to think I was in my late 30s before I could buy my first house.

**
Trying to look past the crazy fantastical world you portray, if you can afford a house without being "house poor" (roughly defined as if your mortgage gets above 30% of your income) then go for it. Equity growth makes for a good investment generally. But how long as you going to stay there? Your duration in that place is a factor to consider. No hard and fast answer. Some people prefer renting and the hassle free lifestyle that provides. Others would never rent, wanting all the joy and burden of home ownership (and added costs).

Aesma · Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:17 pm

Maybe I should have mentioned area instead, that would be about 60m²/650ft². Nothing wrong with it size wise, it's just that I'd rather not have people living above me, under me, left and right, for their sake, as I like watching movies in the middle of the night.

There is the dream house that is gigantic with a garage of 150 exotic cars, an olympic sized pool, and a landing strip for my Falcon trijet, and the dream house I was thinking about that is not even big as I don't need that much space, but has a level below ground where I can build a home cinema and use it without annoying anybody. Problem is the small plot of land needed would cost me as much as the flat.

Tugger · Wed Feb 17, 2016 3:55 pm

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
the monthly costs would be equal to renting.

Based on this I would recommend now.

A key thing to remember is this: As a general rule the future value of money is always lower than it is right now. And that along with the other general rule:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
regardless of minor fluctations property pretty much always increases in value.

....means that if you can do it now and the costs now are essentially the same as renting, there is no reason not to buy.

Yes, these are general rules and not absolutes, housing prices can crash and sometimes an area will lose desirability meaning the buyers you want aren't there when you want to sell. So do your research, know where to buy, don't buy in the peak season if you can help it, and know what you can afford (even if you have to stretch a bit, overreaching is bad, stretching is often not if you understand your finances). As long as your income is stable enough and you have confidence in your future earnings, you should do fine.

Tugg

Aesma · Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:07 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
So you qualify for a zero interest loan thanks to your government?

Cripes, don't tell Bernie Sanders here in the States. We already had a housing crisis due to banks being pressured to qualify people for loans for which they weren't qualified.

Here in France it's the right wing which loves such schemes, as well as ones allowing you to pay interests instead of taxes.
The consequence is that housing costs go up, putting many out of the market, thus new schemes are put in place to help even more. It's a vicious circle, but I feel if I don't participate I'm losing out. One of the companies I'm looking at offers a 7 years price protection on the flat so even if things start to change I would be covered.

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
But how long as you going to stay there? Your duration in that place is a factor to consider. No hard and fast answer. Some people prefer renting and the hassle free lifestyle that provides.

5 years would be my guess. I'd like to live elsewhere but the places I'm considering (mainly the southwestern coast of France, alternatively an island overseas territory) have bad job markets at the moment. Now if my company offered me an expat package, for example in Casablanca where I'm sent regularly, I would be out of here right away. I could rent the flat.

jetwet1 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 4:35 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 1):
Probably right now, regardless of minor fluctations property pretty much always increases in value. You might not be able to afford what you want now but a start on the property ladder is a start, you can always sell and trade up when your circumstances improve.

If the costs are the same as renting you would be mad not to buy.

As many have said, if the cost to buy is the same or almost the same as renting, you buy.

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
We already had a housing crisis due to banks being pressured to qualify people for loans for which they weren't qualified.

The banks were not pressured to do anything, everyone involved went into it with their eyes wide open, all they saw were dollar signs of their commission checks, trust me on this one, the wife and I had a front row seat for the whole thing up until the point she walked out of her very nice 7 figure job because she saw what was going on and it wasn't going to end well.

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
And to think I was in my late 30s before I could buy my first house.

It depends a lot on what area of the country you live, live in So Cal and I have to wonder how you ever buy as starter house, the same applies to cities all around the world.

AM744 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:19 pm

Buy if you can pay without committing an unorderly portion of your income. Buy the space you need now. You are not tied to a given mortgage for the whole period. The property IS legally yours even if you carry a debt. You can sell and buy something bigger and better later on if you need to, want to and can afford it.

Flighty · Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:51 pm

My experience is, think of a plan A, B, C.

Plan A, you buy your dream home and live in it forever.

Plan B, you sell for a profit.

Plan C, you rent it out, move away, but still don't lose money on it.

If you risk losing a lot of money, you probably shouldn't do it.

Mortyman · Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:10 pm

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
so it would be a 2/3 bedrooms flat

You don't know how lucky you are ...

luckyone · Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:23 pm

Anytime your rent is more than your mortgage, and you're likely to live somewhere more than 3-4 years (to recoup the initial costs) you'd be mad to keep renting.

Rara · Wed Feb 17, 2016 6:27 pm

I'd say go for it. Don't treat it like a choice for the rest of life, think of it as an investment.

rfields5421 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:07 pm

Buying a first home is a start of a process to eventually reach your dream home. Some folks never get there, but a lot do.

As long as you plan to be in the area for the next three or four years, buy.

One caution - owning a home always adds extra expenses beyond the mortgage, taxes, insurance and utilities costs. Even a new home is going to require some maintenance costs.

Home ownership really hits home the first time something breaks, and rather than calling the rental management office to get it fixed, you have to go shopping to find a repair or replacement.

dfwjim1 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:17 pm

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):

Here in the United States it is suggested that one have a savings account to cover unexpected home expenses before buying
a home. Personally I have about 5 months of salary in an emergency fund but that might be overkill on my part.

luckyone · Wed Feb 17, 2016 8:19 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 14):
One caution - owning a home always adds extra expenses beyond the mortgage, taxes, insurance and utilities costs. Even a new home is going to require some maintenance costs.

Which is often mitigated if one lives in a development such as a condo that has maintenance services. So yes one pays an HOA, but that is a fixed cost.

GrahamHill · Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:01 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
Maybe I should have mentioned area instead, that would be about 60m²/650ft². Nothing wrong with it size wise, it's just that I'd rather not have people living above me, under me, left and right, for their sake, as I like watching movies in the middle of the night.

If you buy a newly built appartment, you should be fine. Concrete is a pretty good noise stopper.

I just bought my first appartment last summer. Like you, I had some money savings, I have a stable job, and a very interesting fixed interest rate of 2.64% for the first 5 years (loan goes for 20 years total), which is quite good. My appartment is around the same size as yours (5 m² less).

You seem to have all conditions gathered to buy, so my advice is: do it. Don't wait for your dream property to come. Not only it might not come soon, but it might never come at all... In the meantime, you'll start paying for yourself. And if you need to leave because of your job, you can still put it for rent.

Buying a house is the safest investment you can make.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 14):

Buying a first home is a start of a process to eventually reach your dream home. Some folks never get there, but a lot do.

As long as you plan to be in the area for the next three or four years, buy.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 14):
One caution - owning a home always adds extra expenses beyond the mortgage, taxes, insurance and utilities costs. Even a new home is going to require some maintenance costs.

Indeed. For example, I'll need to change the water heater and the air conditioned this year. That's a bill of $3,000....

flymia · Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:19 pm

If the cost are the same as renting you buy, it makes more sense if you have a long term outlook for living in that area. 2+ years.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):

Maybe I should have mentioned area instead, that would be about 60m²/650ft².

How can 2-3 bedrooms fit in 650ft sq feet??

Aesma · Wed Feb 17, 2016 9:57 pm

Quoting AM744 (Reply 9):
Buy if you can pay without committing an unorderly portion of your income. Buy the space you need now. You are not tied to a given mortgage for the whole period. The property IS legally yours even if you carry a debt. You can sell and buy something bigger and better later on if you need to, want to and can afford it.

Since the mortgage is tied to the place I'm still wondering what happens exactly if I sell. Ideally I'd want to transfer the mortgage but I'm not sure it's possible.

Quoting flymia (Reply 18):
How can 2-3 bedrooms fit in 650ft sq feet??

That's why I mentioned it, because not all countries are the same. I'd rather have 2 decently sized bedrooms in that area than 3 small ones, but it's definitely what you tend find on the market, simply because families can't afford bigger places, but still want separate rooms for the kids.

Here is an example, it's actually a bit bigger, and I noticed while making the capture that the third bedroom is optional, that would be my preference :

AM744 · Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:39 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
Since the mortgage is tied to the place I'm still wondering what happens exactly if I sell. Ideally I'd want to transfer the mortgage but I'm not sure it's possible.

Around here (actually our Civil Code is based on Napoleonic codes so maybe there are some similarities) you get the title even if the property is mortgaged, i.e. the property is legally yours, even though you actually carry a debt for which you have to answer to the bank or whoever the lender is.

If you choose to sell at some point, the property is valued at that point in the future. For your mortgage to be cancelled, the bank will ask for the outstanding balance to be paid back. They don't care who pays.The outstanding balance will come from a) your own pocket, b) the buyer's pocket, c) the buyer's lender pocket.

At the end:

Money you get = Property Value at the date of sell (because it is yours) - Money you owe to the bank (not yours)

You'll have to ask a local advisor, but I can tell that around here, the buyer's lender generally chooses to pay the outstanding balance to your bank, thus cancelling your mortgage and have the buyer open a new line of credit (and of course pay fees, push their insurance, absorb the closing costs, etc) but you don't care about that because you are selling. The old bank gets its money and the new bank gets a new creditor under its own contract and conditions. There are figures in which the original credit can be 'transferred' or 'surrogated', in which the same credit is transferred or 'sold' to the new bank, but apparently not many banks choose to do so.

In any case, getting a new mortgage by cancelling an old one must be possible and somewhat reasonable in an advanced enconomy such as France.

VapourTrails · Thu Feb 18, 2016 1:24 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
I'd say go for it. Don't treat it like a choice for the rest of life, think of it as an investment.

I agree, and some really good advice given here.

Having some money set aside after the purchase will cover expenses like a renovation or repair that you need to do in the first twelve months, or you settle in and find something is not or is no longer working.

Adding to that though, I would advise getting a building inspection done before you buy, if there is not anything like this in place, i.e. onus on the seller. I am not familiar with your part of the world. I read up and got one. I know people who didn't and have found unapproved additions, or hidden termite infestation.

If it will be an Owners Corp, then check the health of this out before you buy.

The first home is always the most difficult, and the first five years of the mortgage is the hardest, usually. It sounds as if you are in a really good place all round, to start home ownership right now.

First home is not usually dream home, but you need to start somewhere, and you will be miles ahead in years to come, than if you had stayed renting. Try and pay over and above the mortgage repayments, to get it paid off quicker.

Oh yeah, and with all this crazy weather, have a look at where the property is situated. Higher weather risk events usually put the insurance up too, for example, in a forest, next to a river, on the coast even.. in cyclone or earthquake prone areas..

[Edited 2016-02-17 17:27:37]

IMissPiedmont · Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:55 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):

Ya'll can fit two or three bedrooms in 650 square feet? I was thinking you were buying a house, not a closet. If you are single, never entertain, and it's a one bedroom, buy. If it really is several bedrooms, I would run as far away from the scenario you clarified as humanly possible. Those things never appreciate enough to cover costs. In this country they are called "Park Model" manufactured homes.

I really thought you were thinking of a house with 1000-1200 square feet.

Ken777 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:13 am

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
We already had a housing crisis due to banks being pressured to qualify people for loans for which they weren't qualified.

The banks were fully in that game, making it very easy for flaky loans to get approved. As long as there was insurance the banks were not worried about loosing their money. Sure.

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
And to think I was in my late 30s before I could buy my first house.

One of the benefits of serving in the Navy. Bought our house on the GI bill in '71 and all I needed at closing was 3 months of payments for insurance and taxes. All that was left to but was light bulbs and toilet paper. And some paper to cover the windows until my better half could get drapes made.

In terms of you buying, my first advice is to buy something that will be easy to sell. That works for increasing value as well as protecting you a bit when it is time to sell.

If it is a new build going up I'd also see if they can add a sink next to the toilet in the WC. That lets guest wash their hands after using the toilet - and can make your place more attractive than the competition when you sell it.

rfields5421 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:43 am

Many countries other than the US have the toilet in a separate space, and on top the toilet there is a small hand washing basin. Some cultures also consider putting the bathing function and the body waste removal function in the same space as unsanitary.

Like this one - http://blog.greendepot.com/2011/09/t...rofile-a-toilet-and-sink-combined/

There was one in our house off-base in Yokosuka Japan in 1983. And because the home didn't have central head and the toilet room was cold - the seat was automatically heated.

[Edited 2016-02-17 19:47:51]

Revelation · Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:50 am

Quoting imisspiedmont (Reply 2):
You make it sound as though there is something wrong with a two or three bedroom, single story house.

"flat" is not a single story house, it's what we in the US would call a single floor condominium, which is "flat".

Aaron747 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:02 am

Quoting slider (Reply 4):
Trying to look past the crazy fantastical world you portray, if you can afford a house without being "house poor" (roughly defined as if your mortgage gets above 30% of your income) then go for it.

You hit the nail on the head. I would never consider buying a house unless I had the savings to either buy outright or completely take the hit if all in the world went kablooey. Whatever happens, banks are going to hold you to the note you signed.

Nevermind my definition of comfort is probably different than a lot of other people's. I live in 3 minutes' walking distance of a supermarket, shopping center with tennis/running track on top of it, two subway stations, one JR line, and have a 7th floor view of a nice park. I can walk to a much larger park just 3 blocks away. All for a rent of $850/month for 2 bedrooms. If that's the cost of not owning something, I'll gladly take it.

Aerial of the hood

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 24):
Many countries other than the US have the toilet in a separate space, and on top the toilet there is a small hand washing basin. Some cultures also consider putting the bathing function and the body waste removal function in the same space as unsanitary.

My bathroom here is the best thing ever. My building went up in 1987, but our unit was renovated last year before we moved in. I get reverse culture shock every time I visit my mom's spacious house in CA and see the toilets next to the bathing facilities. Wow!

Aesma · Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:42 am

Yes the sink/toilet combination is a good invention and helps save water too, although most people would probably prefer a separate sink, what I have currently. On the plan I uploaded it seems there is ample space in the loo to put a sink.

That was just an example though, I like the overall layout of the place (without the optional third bedroom), however it's to the north of the building. Also I'd have to buy it right now and I'm not that ready !

Quoting imisspiedmont (Reply 22):
Ya'll can fit two or three bedrooms in 650 square feet? I was thinking you were buying a house, not a closet. If you are single, never entertain, and it's a one bedroom, buy. If it really is several bedrooms, I would run as far away from the scenario you clarified as humanly possible. Those things never appreciate enough to cover costs. In this country they are called "Park Model" manufactured homes.

I really thought you were thinking of a house with 1000-1200 square feet.

Now who's materialistic ?

My younger brother bought his place aged 22, 27m² => 290ft², it has appreciated fine (and he did entertain). He's not selling though, he'll rent it now that he has a new place with his female companion, about the same size I want, except where it is it's twice as expensive. An uncle of mine has a similar flat in the middle of Paris, bought in the 70's, it's worth 600 000 euros now despite the paper thin walls (I lived there with him).

777Jet · Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:45 am

Remember it pays off more to buy the worst home in the best area; not the best home in the worst area

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 11):
Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
so it would be a 2/3 bedrooms flat

You don't know how lucky you are ...

My heart bleeds for anybody who has to live in just a 2/3 bedroom flat... Not!

Quoting Rara (Reply 13):
I'd say go for it. Don't treat it like a choice for the rest of life, think of it as an investment.

Likewise.

And even if the investment loses value, you still have a place to live - a roof over your head - something useful that can be actually used until it makes sense to sell.

The same can't be said about other types of investments, such as shares.

Kiwirob · Thu Feb 18, 2016 11:18 am

Quoting imisspiedmont (Reply 22):
Ya'll can fit two or three bedrooms in 650 square feet? I was thinking you were buying a house, not a closet. If you are single, never entertain, and it's a one bedroom, buy. If it really is several bedrooms, I would run as far away from the scenario you clarified as humanly possible. Those things never appreciate enough to cover costs. In this country they are called "Park Model" manufactured homes.

I really thought you were thinking of a house with 1000-1200 square feet.

You don't live in Europe, what you deam correct isn't even close to reality here.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 27):
Also I'd have to buy it right now and I'm not that ready !

If you don't buy now, just as night follows day, it will be more expensive when you are ready.

JJJ · Thu Feb 18, 2016 12:15 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
You don't live in Europe, what you deam correct isn't even close to reality here.

It depends on where in Europe.

I used to live in a small appartment (60sqm) back when I lived in a big-ish city. Now that I'm out in the boondocks I'm in a 210sqm detached house, paying less rent now, too.

Of course I miss walking to work, walking to shop for just about everything, basically not needing a car for 99% of the time but space has its own set of advantages.

My brother just moved from a big house in the 'burbs to a smaller apartment so that the kids could walk to school, have their friends within walking / biking distance, etc. and is very happy with the change. I'm told that the couple he swapped the house for also are very happy with the trade.

Revelation · Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:32 pm

Interesting thread. One of the things this site is great for is understanding each other's cultural norms and life challenges.

rfields5421 · Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:57 pm

Even in the US we can downsize.

I gave up a 2,400 sq ft home with a two car garage and a 12,000 sq ft lot to move into a 350 sq ft travel trailer.

Getting rid of over $2,400 a month in home ownership expenses gives us the freedom to travel this country when and where we wish. There are tens of thousands of older Americans (and some not so young) making such a transition / lifestyle change.

I've been blessed to live for a year or more in three different countries and one US overseas territory, four completely different cultures (Guam, the Philippines, Antigua, Japan). I've learned that the US way isn't the only way. For many folks, smaller is better. Of course, two were small tropical islands, both smaller than the county where I grew up, and the other two were island nations - both smaller than Texas.

slider · Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:03 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 15):
Personally I have about 5 months of salary in an emergency fund but that might be overkill on my part.

Not overkill--that's smart, my friend.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
One of the benefits of serving in the Navy. Bought our house on the GI bill in '71 and all I needed at closing was 3 months of payments for insurance and taxes. All that was left to but was light bulbs and toilet paper. And some paper to cover the windows until my better half could get drapes made.

Nice!

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 32):
Even in the US we can downsize.

I gave up a 2,400 sq ft home with a two car garage and a 12,000 sq ft lot to move into a 350 sq ft travel trailer.

Getting rid of over $2,400 a month in home ownership expenses gives us the freedom to travel this country when and where we wish. There are tens of thousands of older Americans (and some not so young) making such a transition / lifestyle change.

Downsizing is becoming a very popular thing, for empty-nesters and mid-life professionals. I know a few personally who have done this and regret nothing. One couple sold a suburban Houston house that was darn near 4,000sf and moved to a midtown condo that's maybe 1500sf max. Storage unit for some stuff, but divested greatly now that their kids are off to college. Another friend in AUS took advantage of the hot real estate market there and is renting a 2500sf house and bought a 790sf condo downtown. Rental income is good there and the downsize was a quality of life thing.

We've contemplated it as well once the kids are off to college. Won't need 3500sf then, really.

Aesma · Thu Feb 18, 2016 6:12 pm

Of course you can get a big house in France too, although considering most are built with hard stuff rather than wood, it's a bit more expensive. As I said earlier the main problem where I live (Paris suburbs) is that land is extremely expensive, more expensive than what you will build on it, in fact. It gets cheaper further out, of course, but then I'd have to commute for an hour each way, in crazy traffic, and driving a manual car (no choice), compared to 15 minutes, I'm not ready for that. Maybe when my workplace is ready for telecommuting I'd consider it. It's not, even though my work is all about telecommunications, including videoconferencing !

There is no weather related problems here, no risk of any kind in fact, yet houses are built like bunkers.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 29):
If you don't buy now, just as night follows day, it will be more expensive when you are ready.

It's a matter of months rather than days, that's all I'm saying.

Pellegrine · Fri Feb 19, 2016 5:55 am

In the United States as soon as possible if the price is right and your local market isn't subject to some weird inflation. Paying rent for an apartment is throwing money down the drain.

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