Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 99): Who is owning the other 51%?

A front corporation in Luxembourg. Owned in turn by you-know-who. Repeat with as many layers as needed.

Big business always gets around this kind of regulation scares, it's SME who will suffer the most.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 98): To the French the rules are only applicable if they don't want the produce, if they want them the rule book will disappear.

I have to say that it looks that way from the UK with the ferry ports regularly being blocked on the French side, French farmers regularly blocking highways and empting and spoiling lorries carrying farm produce, and all this without the French police interfering. However I have to say the police do not interfere when the French farmers dump manure or sheep on their own government buildings doorstep.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 95): Nope, UK Fishermen and exporters will just stick to EU regulations, because there is a price premium to be had.... if they don´t, they won´t sell to the French.

But EU fishermen and Fisherwomen [ got to be politically correct ] export to say Russia or the USA they have to comply with their rules, Now being a large home market they might have more sway in getting those foreign rules changed , but no guarantee.

Now at present all of the EU complies with UK rules as they supply us with cars with a steering wheel on the right hand side and we do similar with our car exports to the EU

littlevc10

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 86): Because there's no formal exit mechanism for leaving the Euro. It's not written anywhere. The only way you leave is by leaving the EU (which is something Greece didn't need to do).

It's true that there's no format exit mechanism for leaving the Euro, but there was a clear consensus among EU governments that Greece couldn't (and shouldn't) be forced out of the EU if they left the Euro. Let's be clear about this - Greece didn't choose the stay in the Euro because of a formal requirement or because they were afraid of the red tape.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 97): They already set up an Easyjet Switzerland once. They'll just set up shop in some European capital (or buy a small continental airline) and there's your EU carrier. Won't be cheap, but they stand to lose more.

It's not that easy.   Otherwise Emirates and Etihad would already have "set up shop in some European capital". Countries (and the EU) can shield their domestic markets pretty effectively if they so choose.

I do think that the EU would continue to grant the UK a rather liberal access to the European market. But it would be on the EU's terms, and the UK would lose any influence on those.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 98): To the French the rules are only applicable if they don't want the produce, if they want them the rule book will disappear.

The French shellfish fishermen will, however, spot the opportunity to protect their market from superior foreign produce, and will pressure Brussels to do so.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 101): Now at present all of the EU complies with UK rules as they supply us with cars with a steering wheel on the right hand side and we do similar with our car exports to the EU

I don´t think it is any more illegal to sell a car with the steering wheel on the left side in the UK as it is to sell one with the steering wheel on the right side in Germany. The market for both is just very small.

Aside from the side where the steering wheel is, which is not regulated by the EU btw, all cars sold in the EU comply with EU regulations. Even the ones sold in the UK.

But you are correct, just like the market for "wrong" cars in the UK is small, the market for black market fish will be limited in France as well.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 101): French farmers regularly blocking highways and empting and spoiling lorries carrying farm produce, and all this without the French police interfering.

I am pretty sure i can recall army engineer tanks pushing trucks on strike of french highways at some point in the 90s or late 80s.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 100): A front corporation in Luxembourg. Owned in turn by you-know-who. Repeat with as many layers as needed.

Oh, so that is why EY owned 100% of AB today, because they willy nilly circumvented all those rules by a front company....

best regards
Thomas

I think its a fair bit naïve from the Brexit camp to think the EU will still allow the UK full and unhindered access to their market after an exit in which they aim to recall all the concessions the UK now has to make as a full member in order to belong to the club and enjoy its benefits.
I mean: how likely is it that in order to be granted the status of preferred partner like Switzerland and Norway, certain conditions are going to be tabled, not for negotiating, but rather on a take it or leave it bases?
I'd like to point out that both non-EU members have signed up to Schengen as that was one of the conditions to be granted full access, and are even contributing financially to the EU budget. Oh, yes!
How ironic wouldn't it be for the UK to have to give up more independence and pay more when outside of the EU, then in, thanks to the special regime it now enjoys.
No idea what the exact demands from the EU would be, but you can bet a lot of money on it that certain countries, both western as well as eastern European, would raise the bar fairly high for several reasons: to set an example, to protect their own interests, to take some sort of revenge,... and each one of them can hold the UK hostage in case London doesn't just give in completely.
I think that in Paris, Warsaw, Athens or Budapest certain people in office may actually like the idea of making the British PM dance to their tune for a couple of years... one of them may even come up with the idea to make the whole deal temporarily and up for renewal every say 10 years or so.
My point is that the assumption by the Brexit camp that a set of bilateral deals is going to be more advantageous to the UK than a membership deal like the one negotiated now is based on wishful thinking which contradicts the likely attitudes from several European governments during any such bilateral negotiations between them and the UK.

[Edited 2016-02-24 06:26:02]

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 104): My point is that the assumption by the Brexit camp that a set of bilateral deals is going to be more advantageous to the UK than a membership deal like the one negotiated now is based on wishful thinking which contradicts the likely attitudes from several European governments during any such bilateral negotiations between them and the UK.

And they are very motivated to make an exit as painful as possible and to give no freebies at all. Why join the community if you can have it all without, why stay in?

Best regards
Thomas

I conclude from the predictions of doom and gloom, that many Europeans are deeply worried about the possibility of a UK withdrawal.
Quite frankly it is ridiculous to tell the 5th largest economy in the World that they couldn't survive out of the EU.

The problem for the EU is that if the UK withdraws, the financial burden to keep the ship afloat falls far more on Germany. if Germany then declares it has had enough of paying out the ship sinks.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): The problem for the EU is that if the UK withdraws, the financial burden to keep the ship afloat falls far more on Germany. if Germany then declares it has had enough of paying out the ship sinks.

I think it would be a long time before this happened even with the extra financial load that the UK withdrawal would put on the Germans . This is because the Germans need to EU as much, if not more than any other country.

Let me explain-------- With Germany's booming economy if she still used the German Mark , it would sore in value making German goods expensive and imports much cheaper,This would result in a reduction of home produced German goods with possible increase in unemployment, as German companies repositioned their production overseas in cheaper countries.

Now in the Euro the poorer economies within Europe tend to counterbalance Germany's strong economy and the Euro remains relatively stable. This allows Germany INC to keep their economy going at a good pace. For the poorer countries it does mean that their imports are more expensive than if they had their own currency, but it is felt that having a stable currency is worth it

So staying in the Euro/EU even with the heavier financial burden if the UK left would be in Germany's interest

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106):

The problem we had is, everybody in the EU knew David Cameron was pro EU, and only promised a referendum to win back voters from UKIP, that severely weakened his hand.

If we had a Euroskeptic leader, he/she could of gotten a better deal and basically made the Euro's pips squeak.

If the vote does got for exit, I can't imagine the German and French public being happy about digging deeper to make up the shortfall in the EU budget.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): I conclude from the predictions of doom and gloom, that many Europeans are deeply worried about the possibility of a UK withdrawal. Quite frankly it is ridiculous to tell the 5th largest economy in the World that they couldn't survive out of the EU.

Isn't that a bit of a strawman? Who in this thread has suggested that the UK couldn't survive out of the EU? I think the broad consensus in this thread was that if the UK really leaves the EU, nothing would change fundamentally on either side, but that the detriments would outweigh the benefits for both sides.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): The problem for the EU is that if the UK withdraws, the financial burden to keep the ship afloat falls far more on Germany.

I'm not sure. The EU's budget is about 140 billion Euros to which the UK contributes a net total of 5 billion, thus less than 5%. Not insignificant, but not a game changer either. I don't believe that any country would pay noticeably more as a result; there would just be less money to redistribute.

Quoting Rara (Reply 109): UK contributes a net total of 5 billion, thus less than 5%. Not insignificant, but not a game changer either.

In 2013, UK government gross contributions were £14 billion. After rebates and other receipts, our net contribution was £8.6 billion, or about £24 million a day

Source : HM Treasury European Union Finances 2013 and The House Commons Library analysis "The economic impact of European Union Membership on the UK"

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 110): In 2013, UK government gross contributions were £14 billion. After rebates and other receipts, our net contribution was £8.6 billion, or about £24 million a day Source : HM Treasury European Union Finances 2013 and The House Commons Library analysis "The economic impact of European Union Membership on the UK"

I stand by my numbers; source: European Commission: EU budget 2014 – Financial report. Eurostat: http://ec.europa.eu/budget/figures/interactive/index_en.cfm

Fail to see how a Eurosceptic PM would have got a better deal.

At the end of the day there is a vote on the deal.

If the public do no like the deal then there is the prospect of BREXIT.

All the leaders knew that.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): I conclude from the predictions of doom and gloom, that many Europeans are deeply worried about the possibility of a UK withdrawal.

Of course, they might then have to deal with their own problems themselves  

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): Quite frankly it is ridiculous to tell the 5th largest economy in the World that they couldn't survive out of the EU.

  

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): The problem for the EU is that if the UK withdraws, the financial burden to keep the ship afloat falls far more on Germany.

Better to jump ship now before the thing sinks and takes you down with it  

Quoting vc10 (Reply 107): Let me explain-------- With Germany's booming economy if she still used the German Mark , it would sore in value making German goods expensive and imports much cheaper,This would result in a reduction of home produced German goods with possible increase in unemployment, as German companies repositioned their production overseas in cheaper countries.

We had this all before, with a high value Mark as well as with a high valued € against the other currencies. It has never hurt German economy, it might have given an additional boost but the German economy as such depends more on diversity and small and medium Enterprises and the enterpreneurship that goes along than on cheap currency. After sales Service is an asset as well. The overseas production is a tool to open up new Export markets, it does not take productiuon away from Germany on high value items. Cheap consumer goods is another Story but wé would not have the People to produce mass items oin Germany and even oif we would, the cost per hour, where a Minimum wage pof € 8,50 is boosted by all social costs attached to anything between € 15 and 20. With that diversity and well run companies on all Levels the outside Value of the cufrrency is an issue but it does not mean "make or break". Besides, the majority of the exports go into the single market anyhow.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 110): In 2013, UK government gross contributions were £14 billion. After rebates and other receipts, our net contribution was £8.6 billion, or about £24 million a day Source : HM Treasury European Union Finances

And you'd be hard pressed to save a single pound if you are being asked to contribute fairly as a preferential external partner seeking access to the common market.
Switzerland ( a country about 8 times less populated than the UK) contributes over 1 BN a year to the EU budget for instance to gain the benefits it has (and the Brexit camp would like to mirror).

it all comes down to the same daydream really: the idea you will just be able to continue using whatever benefits the UK now enjoys for free in future too, all while walking away from the EU as well as the bills attached to it: such is utterly naïve.
None of the other non EU countries in that situation enjoy any such privileges and given the rather unique set up through which you'd end up in a similar situation, it's fairly likely the UK will be made to pay a hefty premium even by several EU members who'll seize the opportunity to settle some bilateral bills: I can think of painful and costly demands by the French, the Polish, the Greek, etc within a second.
So I am afraid that if you are pro-Brexit to save money, you are going to end up being disappointed by the lack of savings: the only choice you have is whether you want to have a say over what this money is used for (as in IN), or not (as an OUT).

The real referendum those in support of a Brexit would like to hold is whether the EU should be left to exist; sadly for them, such a vote isn't possible of course. As long as it does, the EU is going to remain an all important and dominating next door reality you'll be faced with and will have to conform to in practice, like it or not.
Splendid isolation is something from the past, unfortunately, even for an island economy.

Personally, I am all pro Brexit, as I think a slimmed down EU (basically just the eurozone) could then turn into a real federation pretty soon, but I can feel this referendum go 55/45 to the STAY camp.
Maybe all the better do, because a UK which breaks up over this (Scotland out of the UK) isn't the best neighbour to have for the EU as that would probably all be blamed on Brussels too then.

[Edited 2016-02-25 06:30:02]

Quoting vc10 (Reply 92): Now it might surprise many of you but I quite like the EU , but the way it is set up at the moment there is no room in it for another large country such as the UK, because the power balance is already set with Germany and France and I am not saying this is wrong but rather the UK has trouble fitting in. Therefore I think we should leave whilst still being on friendly terms and co-operating with the EU on say common defence, environment, etc issues,

It's the UK's fault that it hasn't more influence, it didn't take part at the beginning, then when it finally came it always wanted exceptions to this or that, until the current situation, one foot in one foot out.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 103): I don´t think it is any more illegal to sell a car with the steering wheel on the left side in the UK as it is to sell one with the steering wheel on the right side in Germany. The market for both is just very small.

The steering wheel can be on either side but the headlamps have to be modified. In France to use a car made for the UK you need it to have an European certificate of conformity. Major manufacturers have it, small sports cars makers don't. Getting such cars a French certificate is arduous, expensive, and you never know if it will be possible until the end.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 112): Fail to see how a Eurosceptic PM would have got a better deal. At the end of the day there is a vote on the deal. If the public do no like the deal then there is the prospect of BREXIT. All the leaders knew that.

Define eurosceptic ? If you want out, you just make the referendum, no need to negotiate. Indeed other EU leaders wouldn't have negotiated at all with such a person.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 113): Of course, they might then have to deal with their own problems themselves

What problems does the UK help solving ?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): What problems does the UK help solving ?

World War II? Bringing French troops back to the UK from Dunkirk. President De Gaulle seemed quite happy here only to
be welcomed back as a hero.

I love Europe, really. Especially France. But, why do so many people here think the UK is unworthy at times. Glad I'm getting
too old to worry.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): What problems does the UK help solving ?

Where shall we begin....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries

A lot of problems solved in that lot...  

Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): he steering wheel can be on either side but the headlamps have to be modified. In France to use a car made for the UK you need it to have an European certificate of conformity. Major manufacturers have it, small sports cars makers don't. Getting such cars a French certificate is arduous, expensive, and you never know if it will be possible until the end.

You have all missed the point, as whether it is a legal requirement or not they still make cars to suit the UK market and so every manufacturer builds to suit the market they are selling to whether for legal reason or market preferences.
Back in the 1970's I was based in Singapore and thought I would buy a Ford Cortina and take it home as it was so much cheaper. Well that was until I found out that as a heater was not required in Singapore , Ford did not fit them to Singapore
cars. Build to the Markets needs.

Surely in the above answer that " getting such cars an French certificate " you really mean an EU certificate or are the French cars not built to a common EU standard.

littlevc10

Of course many manufacturers don't bother with some markets, even big ones, no Peugeot, Renault or Citröen in the US.

I was talking about the many sports cars made in the UK, not French cars. Ultima for example, no European certificate.

I don't think we have an equivalent in France, even a small manufacturer like PGO builds homologated cars.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): It's the UK's fault that it hasn't more influence, it didn't take part at the beginning

To be fair though, that was France's doing.   Britain wanted to join twice in the 1960s, and both times de Gaulle prevented it, even though his view of how the EC should work was rather similar to the British view. "But like the dog returns to his vomit, de Gaulle returns to hatred and distrust", noted Harold Macmillan.  

Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): What problems does the UK help solving ?

Currently they contribute to solving other nation's financial problems for starters.

Quoting SoJo (Reply 117): Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): What problems does the UK help solving ? World War II? Bringing French troops back to the UK from Dunkirk. President De Gaulle seemed quite happy here only to be welcomed back as a hero. I love Europe, really. Especially France. But, why do so many people here think the UK is unworthy at times. Glad I'm getting too old to worry.

Well said.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 118): Quoting Aesma (Reply 116): What problems does the UK help solving ? Where shall we begin.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries A lot of problems solved in that lot...

  

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 122): World War II? Bringing French troops back to the UK from Dunkirk.

I still remember, living just north of London, some of the 'scenes' in the 1940s - German prisoners in one nearby camp, 'Free French' in the other. And the odd Heinkel bomber overhead.......

No two ways about it - had Britain not held out, defeating the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain and winning the Battle of the Atlantic, and eventually joining the Americans in the 1944 D-Day landings, France would have been under German occupation for many years - perhaps to the present day.

That's not a matter of 'speculation' - it's a FACT.....

[Edited 2016-02-25 17:37:30]

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 123): Quoting 777Jet (Reply 122): World War II? Bringing French troops back to the UK from Dunkirk.

Hi NAV30,

I'm glad to see that after all your time here you have figured out how to quote correctly - not!

That quote belongs to:

Quoting SoJo (Reply 117): World War II? Bringing French troops back to the UK from Dunkirk.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 106): I conclude from the predictions of doom and gloom, that many Europeans are deeply worried about the possibility of a UK withdrawal.

Nah, that's not what is seen here. Brexit is a low key issue, mainly for the online bookmakers to profit on. Odds are sometimes posted in the press. Apart from that Brexit is assumed to have little or no relevance here.

South-East England is of course a major service provider of financial services to the EU. But it can quite easily be moved to another EU country. Likely several major players will move fully or major parts to the continent, making no issue at all for us continentals.

And when the staff moves along, then hardly more than the office cleaners in London will be facing unemployment.

We are more worried what EU there will be left to exit when June comes. When Greece and Austria suspends diplomatic relations, and the rest of the EU doesn't seem care, then only God knows what is left of the EU when the sun gets high in the sky.

Nobody seems to care much about proper EU leadership. When high ranking national politicians get old and tired, then most countries get them sidelined out of the way by getting them a job in Brussels. My own country Denmark is certainly guilty. I don't think that we ever provided one single EU commissioner who wasn't a tired old (wo-)man who refused to retire in time.

Brexit is a British issue, and it will have moderate to substantial influence on Britain depending on how they handle it. Elsewhere it will be minimal to unnoticeable.

[Edited 2016-02-25 19:35:27]

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 125): Nobody seems to care much about proper EU leadership.

I think that that is a very important issue. I still recall the days of EFTA, when things 'visibly' worked pretty well (to the benefit of most if not all the member countries). Since than, the EU seems to have become a bureaucracy run by 'faceless men' - with little if any true leadership.

I for one won't be surprised if Britain eventually votes to get out. Not because a large majority of the UK voters want to - just because many of them probably won't see any particular reason to stay in..........

[Edited 2016-02-25 23:03:35]

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 125): Nobody seems to care much about proper EU leadership. When high ranking national politicians get old and tired, then most countries get them sidelined out of the way by getting them a job in Brussels. My own country Denmark is certainly guilty. I don't think that we ever provided one single EU commissioner who wasn't a tired old (wo-)man who refused to retire in time.

And then their job is to rubberstamp unpopular measures and laws the national governments create, but where they know that they cannot get them through with their own population. Then these laws will be labeled as "coming from Brussels" and "Sorry, we'll have to enact them, can't do anything about it!".

Jan

Quoting SoJo (Reply 117): World War II? Bringing French troops back to the UK from Dunkirk. President De Gaulle seemed quite happy here only to be welcomed back as a hero. I love Europe, really. Especially France. But, why do so many people here think the UK is unworthy at times. Glad I'm getting too old to worry.

Nothing to do with the EU, then.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 118): Where shall we begin.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_inventions_and_discoveries A lot of problems solved in that lot...

Nothing to do with the EU, then. I'm not criticizing the UK, I'm criticizing its role in the EU.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 122): Currently they contribute to solving other nation's financial problems for starters.

Dragging their feet in doing so.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 127): And then their job is to rubberstamp unpopular measures and laws the national governments create, but where they know that they cannot get them through with their own population.

Precisely.

Whenever something that's going to be hard to swallow the escape button is "this is European policy, our hands are tied" when the EP is exactly the same people you elect back home, in pretty much the same voting blocks.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 126): I think that that is a very important issue. I still recall the days of EFTA, when things 'visibly' worked pretty well (to the benefit of most if not all the member countries). Since than, the EU seems to have become a bureaucracy run by 'faceless men' - with little if any true leadership.

Exactly. For too long we've farmed our most loathed and incompetent people off to Brussels (eg Kinnock from the UK or Barroso - a man so disliked in his native Portugal he had the distinction being the only PM since the 1974 revolution to lose an election by such a margin that the opposition won an overall majority and didn't need to form a coalition). The EEC/EC/EU bureaucracy has always been bloated, but now with 28 Member States and more knocking on the door, it's at crazy levels, and then add that to what seems to be the biggest gulf in years between the people and their governments (eg when the the 3 main parties Conservatives/Labour/Lib Dems (aka The Establishment) want to stay in people are asking why are the politicians so keen when the people aren't). It may be similar in the US which is why Trump is doing so well. People are just getting sick of political elites with questionable agenda.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 130): Exactly. For too long we've farmed our most loathed and incompetent people off to Brussels

Same here. I think the only competent man we've ever sent to Europe was Walter Hallstein - that was in the 1950s.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 130): The EEC/EC/EU bureaucracy has always been bloated

It hasn't, really. The EU institutions employ some 40,000 men and women; many cities in Europe employ more than that. I know some people working for the Commission. They're incredibly dedicated to their work and put in a huge amount of time and effort.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 130): but now with 28 Member States and more knocking on the door, it's at crazy levels

That's true. The member states have been unwilling to create more effective structures in light of the enlargement and increased responsibilities. A 28 members commission is a joke, as is the seat of the parliament still being at Strassbourg.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 128): Quoting 777Jet (Reply 122): Currently they contribute to solving other nation's financial problems for starters. Dragging their feet in doing so.

Can you blame them for not wanting to just throw money away at other's problems that they did not create?

Out to hell with it! I've had enough of the EU and it's regulations, I would be glad to see the back of it. We don't need to be controlled by foreign entities!!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 1):

Are you saying I have no sense because I'm voting out? Don't force your views down anyone's throat, this is a serious issue that will affect our country's future, this is not the time for messing around seriously.

Both arguments must be communicated in a concise manner. No childish digs.

Quoting larshjort (Reply 7):

He's referring to the fact that EU citizens from foreign countries such as Poland or Estonia can come in at free will and live in our country.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):

Accept there's one LARGE difference! Those homeowners buy property in Spain & Portugal outright and live on a pension from Britain so they are no burden to Spain, they actually bring in money unlike some Eastern Europeans who come here and take our money out.

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 65):

I agree. The main countries that benefitted the most out of the EU were poor, corrupt Eastern European countries, as a powerful, wealthy country we could most certainly survive outside the EU.

We don't need it.

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 68):

I'm a "lunatic" because I want out of the EU? Really?

Quoting frostyj (Reply 138): I'm a "lunatic" because I want out of the EU? Really?

Well, unless the UK , better, England since at least Scotland would then drop out and become an Independent state and EU member,wants to live in splendit Isolation from the rest of the world, the UK would Need to make all These rules and regulations part of their legislation.

For the simple reason that, otherwise, you could not sell your products in any other market than the local market. England that would be,no exports, no other places to sell, not even the Commonwealth since they would Show the finger to the tiny mother Country That splendid islolation would become a nightmare pretty quickly.

I am sure that the English will vote to stay, as will the Scots and the Northern Irish and Welsh. The benefits outweight all the bad things that come from Brussels and if England wants to Change the rules of a Club you have to stay in the Club. Only members can Change things.

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter): Just announced the referendum for the decision to stay or leave the EU will be held on 23rd June.

Great! Reading all the comments, just how I wish that Austria would be next. The EU collapse can't come soon enough.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 133): Out to hell with it! I've had enough of the EU and it's regulations, I would be glad to see the back of it.

The EU is our largest trading partner. If you think for one second that the UK being outside the EU won't mean that we'll have to follow all the EU regulations to continue trading, then you're wrong.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 134): Are you saying I have no sense because I'm voting out?

Based on reply 133, I'd say you don't know the consequences of a no vote. Just like the loonies I illustrated. Racist nutters like Farage who remember how "great" we were in the 1950s.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 135): He's referring to the fact that EU citizens from foreign countries such as Poland or Estonia can come in at free will and live in our country.

Just as UK citizens can go and live and work in any other EU country. Free movement.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 137): as a powerful, wealthy country we could most certainly survive outside the EU

We possibly could. BUT, and it's a huge BUT, it would be a leap into the unknown. The whole UK is better off and stronger as part of the EU, just as the EU is better off and stronger with the UK in. It's the same for UK & Scotland - both better off together than separate.

Were any of the 'outers' here in favour of Scotland leaving the UK in 2014?
The arguments the SNP put forward have some similarities, I've long thought the SNP as being a Tartan UKIP.
Both blame every problem on England or if you are for Brexit, Brussels, for things both real and imagined.
Both seem to have a gap in explaining how Scotland, or the UK, will magically benefit.
Both seem to think you can leave but still have all the benefits of membership.
Both have been warned that getting their way is a direct threat to both inward investment or future further investment.
Both have had to make about turns on what used to be key aspects of their post exit plans, for years the SNP banged on about adopting the Euro ('the £ is a millstone around Scotland said Mr Salmond up to a few years ago), UKIP and some Tories used to go about a 'closer link with the US', some even saying we should join NAFTA, but it's been State Department policy for decades that the UK in the EU is a good thing for the West in general. Just as they did not want to see the UK break up.

Brexit poster buffoon Boris has some form, he was once sacked by a broadsheet paper for using other's sources without proper attribution but he landed a job with another as EU correspondent where he preceded to post reports, well fiction really, about 'Brussels' wanting ban, for example, certain kinds of crisps and, this one is a prize example given the one thing he will be remembered for a Mayor Of London, double decker buses!

Quoting scbriml (Reply 141): Based on reply 133, I'd say you don't know the consequences of a no vote. Just like the loonies I illustrated. Racist nutters like Farage who remember how "great" we were in the 1950s.

If Farage is racist then the EU with its ever extending regulations and disregard for people's rights is plain fascist.

Quoting GDB (Reply 142): Both seem to have a gap in explaining how Scotland, or the UK, will magically benefit.

I would have some time for the "outers" if any of them could sit down and explain exactly how we would benefit from being outside the EU. You're right, just like the SNP's evasive 'answers' about EU membership and currency for an independent Scotland, they've got nothing but bluster and nostalgia for "the good old days".

Quoting pvjin (Reply 143): If Farage is racist then the EU with its ever extending regulations and disregard for people's rights is plain fascist.

Why are you still here? Just leave or quit moaning about it.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 144): Why are you still here? Just leave or quit moaning about it.

Again, money, until I have enough to buy myself a nice villa and a bit of land from Tahiti I'm stuck here. You are free to donate though.

[Edited 2016-02-28 02:03:28]

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 139): Well, unless the UK , better, England since at least Scotland would then drop out and become an Independent state and EU member,wants to live in splendit Isolation from the rest of the world, the UK would Need to make all These rules and regulations part of their legislation. For the simple reason that, otherwise, you could not sell your products in any other market than the local market. England that would be,no exports, no other places to sell, not even the Commonwealth since they would Show the finger to the tiny mother Country That splendid islolation would become a nightmare pretty quickly. I am sure that the English will vote to stay, as will the Scots and the Northern Irish and Welsh. The benefits outweight all the bad things that come from Brussels and if England wants to Change the rules of a Club you have to stay in the Club. Only members can Change things.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 139): Well, unless the UK , better, England since at least Scotland would then drop out and become an Independent state and EU member,wants to live in splendit Isolation from the rest of the world, the UK would Need to make all These rules and regulations part of their legislation. For the simple reason that, otherwise, you could not sell your products in any other market than the local market. England that would be,no exports, no other places to sell, not even the Commonwealth since they would Show the finger to the tiny mother Country That splendid islolation would become a nightmare pretty quickly. I am sure that the English will vote to stay, as will the Scots and the Northern Irish and Welsh. The benefits outweight all the bad things that come from Brussels and if England wants to Change the rules of a Club you have to stay in the Club. Only members can Change things.

from what I have heard the BREXIT will only work for the UK if the whole EU is disbanded, so that they can negotiate trade deals with the individual countries from a position of strength.
Many Eurosceptic people in the UK put the EU in a succession with Napoleon and Hitler.

Jan

Quoting scbriml (Reply 144): I would have some time for the "outers" if any of them could sit down and explain exactly how we would benefit from being outside the EU. You're right, just like the SNP's evasive 'answers' about EU membership and currency for an independent Scotland, they've got nothing but bluster and nostalgia for "the good old days".

Let me refer you to Christopher Booker's article in the today's Sunday Telegraph, which highlights the deceit of the EU ever since it was originally envisage. An apparent lie which the UK government knew about over the years but hid from the British public as they knew there would be no support to join the Common Market if it was known

These same arguments regarding trade were used when we went into the Common Market , how would we survive without our trade with the commonwealth, but we did, Remember when we joined the Common Market we were given about about a year to to cease importing cheap food from New Zeeland and Australia. This was described at the time as a huge leap into the dark, but we did it and whether that was right or wrong is still open to debate.

Now if people want to become part of a United States Of Europe, and they are quite entitled to that view, they should vote to stay in and similarly if you don't then vote to leave. "Scbrimi" let me ask you what have we changed by staying in the EU , and I am not talking about Maggie Thatcher's changes but rather where the UK has argued for a course of action and it has been agreed on by the other states. No what normally happens the heads of state of both Germany and France have a private meeting lasting days on end and then they come out with a change that is usually adopted by
the rest of the countries mainly because Germany is seen as the source of all the money that goes to the poorer countries of the EU. If the UK argues against the change she is accused of being a bad European.

A British Government report has just stated that EU migration to the UK in 3013- 14 cost the UK in Unemployment Benefit £886 million and with the number of immigrants increasing this year that figure will only rise, perhaps to one Billion pounds. Now when I mentioned figures like this before people have said we should change our rules to stop such
a farce, and these are the rules of the club. Well I feel it is unacceptable for us to have to change our very beneficial benefit system for UK citizens, to appease the club,

Also because we are in the club our borders to the rest of the EU are open, and this rule worked fine when the number of countries in the EU was smaller , but now the UK population is increasing by one million every three years and that is NET. Rules are not set in stone ,but rather should be changed to suit changing conditions. This cannot be allowed to continue unchecked as basic resources in many parts of the UK are becoming stretched to the limit. In the area where I live the increase in housing is out stripping the supply of water so much so that they are going to build a 30 mile long pipe line from the Thames to supply the demand for water.

Immigration is the the main topic as to whether the UK should leave, and the same argument i would imagine applies to many other UK countries , but is avoided by those in power

littlevc10

That's it: You want to sell your goods on the continent. You want to be able to travel freely there, but you don't want us pesky continentals to come to you.
I have heard some serious suggestions from some Eurosceptics to allow foreigners only in for a maximum of five years (not renewable). During this time, while working in the UK, they'll have to pay tax and social security contributions, but they woulod not be entiteled to any benefits from them (NHS, pension etc.). I understand that the Swiss had a system like this for a while.

Ok, I have cousin, who has now been living and working as a software developer for at least 15 years in Geordieland. I imagine that she is one of the nasty immigrants too.

On the other hand a good friend of mine, from the UK, is living close by and is now starting his own business here in Germany. So he would have to close shop and move back to the UK? From what I understand he prefers it here, living in the Moselle valley.

Jan

Some years ago, around 2007 I think, there was a documentary called 'The Polish Are Coming', it was really about agriculture and their problems in recruiting local workers. The nearby population centre was the town of Peterborough.
Nearly all of the workers being employed on farms were Poles. Why?
Cut to the dole centre in the town, a bunch of seemingly healthy young British men moaning about 'foreigners taking our jobs', in between swigs from beer cans.
Had any of them applied to work on the local farms? While it was not great pay, seasonal and quite hard work with an early start. No, not interested, still manages to be the fault of the Poles for some reason, in their minds.
Better than benefits? Local farmers even raised the pay rate to encourage British people to work there. To no avail.

A recent poll in that area puts pro Brexit at 60%

Cut to today, this farmer wants to employ more locals, he's had some success but still the majority of his workers are from Eastern Europe;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35657822

How is this the fault of the EU?
This looks rather more like the fault of domestic attitudes and perhaps too the whole work/welfare issue.

Given that we are only having this referendum because of internal splits in the Tory party and Cameron panicking in 2012/13 about what seemed to be a danger to his voter base from UKIP, this more and more makes me think that the whole thing is as much about our inability or refusal to settle our own problems, so why not project them on to 'johnny foreigner', it is, after all, one of the oldest tricks in the book.
Look across the pond at the success in the Republican race from a frankly absurd candidate, what fired his campaign? Fear and hatred of Mexicans and Muslims.

Back to the UK, most of you will know who Enoch Powell was, what he became most notorious for, how much of an icon he still is for many in UKIP and some still, albeit more quietly in the Tory party.
I bet a lot fewer knows what he did as Health Secretary in the Conservative government in 1962.
He took a trip to the Caribbean, the former UK colonies, not for the sun and rum but to recruit staff to plug shortages of personnel in the NHS. Just 6 years before 'that speech'.

Today we have someone Enoch would not have liked, post 1968 at least, the poster woman of the 'leave' group in the government, employment minister Priti Patel who co-authoured a book a couple of years ago 'Britannia Unchained' which essentially called for whatever employment rights we still have to be stripped bare in order be more like China.
British workers, this book said, were 'the worst idlers in the world'.
Nice to see a major spokesperson for Brexit sticking up for her fellow countrymen.

You. Are. Being. Played.
Played by those who could not give a shit about you.

[Edited 2016-02-28 04:21:48]