Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:58 am

The entrepreur's wing of Merkel's conservative CDU and the Bavarian CSU was trying to pass a law that refugees would be allowed to work for a pay below German minimum pay rates. This was fortunately shot down by the Social Democrats.
Btw., those are some of those who are screaming against refugees most loudly.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 12:52 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 150):
trying to pass a law that refugees would be allowed to work for a pay below German minimum pay rates.

At same time, how do you expect the employers to find jobs for migrants with no marketable skills, no language skills (if literate at all)? Not everyone can be employed in artificial pseudojobs created by the government...
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 140):
Great! Reading all the comments, just how I wish that Austria would be next. The EU collapse can't come soon enough.

Sure, let's return to the good old days of Nationalism, that had worked out just great for the continent.  

I'm amazed how people fail to see the bigger picture. Europe is a continent of conflict and war; always has been. War was followed by restoration was followed by one country getting too powerful was followed by conflict was followed by war.

In the 1950s, some wise men sat down and said: if we want to break this cycle, we have to integrate European societies and make them dependent on one another. The EEC (later EC, later EU) was founded to bring peace to the major European powers, and it has been enormously successful in doing so.

If you're so eager to abolish the EU, what's your alternative?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:13 pm

For the younger generation less of a problem, as they are mostly willing to learn and, unlike in the 1970s, the state governments are setting up special integration classes, so that they can learn German fast enough to follow regular school or do an apprenticeship. German companies have for years complained that they cannot find enough young people to fill apprenticeship positions and have been looking for apprentices abroad, including in your country.
Today many of them are complainingabout the bureaucratic hurdles, which don't permit them to hire promising refugees. Big companies, like BMW are also hiring new immigrants and see where they can fit them in and retrain them if necessary.
You have to understand that we have a serious problem with an aging population.
Unlike my previous working contracts, the one for my new job I'll start next week, doesn't contain a clause that when I reach the age of 65 the contract will automatically expire. I know some retired people, who are still working (for good money) because the company could not fill their positions.
From what I have heard most refugee children are very eager and happy to go to school and to learn. If this eagerness can be channelled and nutured,I see no problem with them.
One reason many of them are coming here is that every child here HAS to go to school, no matter what it's residential status is. This is different from e.g. Turkey, which uses the refugees as cheap labour, but does not provide any schooling for the next generation, leading to a generation of illiterates.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:55 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 152):

If you're so eager to abolish the EU, what's your alternative?

There's no need to abolish the EU, taking a deep breath and a step back instead of the constant mad dash towards utopian "ever closer union" would be a good start. Perhaps return to pre-Maastricht EU, union of NATION states would be a solution? Federation forced upon people from above, governed by unaccountable, infallible politburo, ignoring people's will is a recipe for disaster.

Quoting Rara (Reply 152):
The EEC (later EC, later EU) was founded to bring peace to the major European powers, and it has been enormously successful in doing so.

It has been achieved, however we shall not fight one another in trenches the next week even without the unsatiable lust of the EU to regulate absolutely everything. Also, have a look at how half-baked and not fully thought through are the very pillars the EU stands on. Euro implemented hastily without any mechanismus available for countries legally pulling out or being expelled. Schengen is great however no one was bothered enough to realize that free, unrestricted movement INSIDE Schengen is only possible if the OUTSIDE borders are seriously protected.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 153):
German companies have for years complained that they cannot find enough young people to fill apprenticeship positions and have been looking for apprentices abroad, including in your country.

Last time I remember Germany kept the labor market closed for anyone from the 2004 EU expansion (while preaching the EU gospel) for the maximum time possible, if 20 years embargo was available it would have been adopted. Even if you did not want for whatever reason anyone from the Visegrád or Batic countries, there are still EU countries like Spain or Greece with massive, double-digit unemployment especially among the under-25 segment of the population whom you would not have to explain what flushing toilet is or the koncept of the rule of secular law.
Oh well, good luck with Somalis, Pakistanis and Iraqis.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 153):
You have to understand that we have a serious problem with an aging population.

So do the Japanese, for example. Hovever, they do not think that dubious "solution" to one problem is creation dozens of other, potentially more serious ones. Nor do they feel any urge to commit national suicide by moving the whole Africa and Middle East to Japan.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 153):
From what I have heard most refugee children are very eager and happy to go to school and to learn. If this eagerness can be channelled and nutured,I see no problem with them.

Perhaps, but 70+% of the migrants are adult men, too old to be meaningfully educated. Their integration has been a disaster all over Europe in the past 30 years.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:14 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 152):
If you're so eager to abolish the EU, what's your alternative?

There are plenty of positive things to be had from an EU-like structure, a collapse of the current system can be a great thing so that we emerge with something well-planned this time around. No one is calling for "Nationalism" per se, but I do that that nations need their own strong identities. Coming together to work on commerce, trade, security according to rules made in the 21st century and adapted for our current political and living environment.

You speak of the EU as a great success story, but in reality, all we are seeing now is a ton of unilateral decisions coming from Germany with complete disregard for anything other nations have to say. It has worked that way for decades, even in the last few years. But now as immense strain is put on the system as a whole, where countries are now fending for themselves in a crisis that is not under control, it becomes significantly apparent that unilateral actions and powers just don't work.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 153):
One reason many of them are coming here is that every child here HAS to go to school

Same here in Austria. Except that immigrant parents are doing nothing but encouraging their kids not to interact with locals, thus segregating their students. Even as early as elementary you have classes here where immigrant kids and locals are not getting along, bullying all around. Some schools are thinking about separating classes for immigrants. Right on, that will help integration all right.  

And forget about the older generation, religious and cultural differences are so strong that a large portion of the population just sits around and eats up the welfare system without having to integrate. A simple walk and browse around town, will show you that a large portion of older immigrant men have tried to learn German a bit just to get by, super basic stuff. Their wives are completely German-less however and they want them to stay that way.

It's all fine and dandy what you say in theory, but in reality the integration of migrants in the years past has not yielded good results.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:36 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 154):

Last time I remember Germany kept the labor market closed for anyone from the 2004 EU expansion (while preaching the EU gospel) for the maximum time possible, if 20 years embargo was available it would have been adopted.

The terms were negotiated under the Schröder government, which at the same time was pushing through the Agenda 2000 programme of cuts in the social security system (about the only thing I'm grateful for about Schröder), as back then Germany was the "sick man of Europe" with high unemployment. At this time the social security reforms had not yet bitten and, with the at that time high unemployment, it would have been extremely difficult to explain to Joe Sixpack that there would be a lot of people coming in at dumping wages (there was no minimum wage at this time either. especially in the construction sector Polish companies would set up a few portacabins on their construction sites, housing the workers in dorms, who would then get paid a few Euros per day, but still more than they would get back home).
Poland, on the other hand, had a ban on Germans buying land in Poland. They were afraid that with the higher buying power of the Germans, Neo-Nazis would come to the former German Eastern province en masse and buy up land to change the demoscopics to germanise the provinces again. This did not happen. Neither was there a flood of dumping wage Eastern European workers, working for dumping wages, coming to Germany, nor did the Germans invade Poland or the Czech Republic en masse after the restrictions were lifted. The only Germans I know who moved there were those with local spouses, who happily learned the local language and fitted in.

As for Europeans to fill vacant positions in Germany, the German labour office is already acvtively recruiting personnel all over Europe, e.g. nurses, engineers, but also mechanics and tradespeople. The company I just left haf a whole bunch of Spanish mechanics. But from what I learned from them, many Spanish do not want to leave their home to go abroad and rather stay on the dole. In this they are quite similar to a largeb group of East Germans, who expect their dream job to materialise just next to their home.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 155):
a collapse of the current system can be a great thing so that we emerge with something well-planned this time around.

Oh yeah? When has that ever worked in history? When was the collapse of one thing ever followed of something "well-planned"? The EU is an enormously complicated construction, carefully designed to balance the interests of 28 member states. It took decades of effort to build it, and look at how fragile and transient it still is, despite of our best efforts. You think this can just collapse and then be magically replaced by something better?

If everyone is equally unhappy with the status quo, that's a pretty good sign that it's well-balanced. The small states claim that the big states have too much power, the big states claim that the small states have too much power... so the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 155):
You speak of the EU as a great success story, but in reality, all we are seeing now is a ton of unilateral decisions coming from Germany with complete disregard for anything other nations have to say. It has worked that way for decades, even in the last few years. But now as immense strain is put on the system as a whole, where countries are now fending for themselves in a crisis that is not under control, it becomes significantly apparent that unilateral actions and powers just don't work.

What are these unilateral decisions? Germany, or any other member state for that matter, can't take any unilateral decisions, that's how the whole thing works.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 154):
Oh well, good luck with Somalis, Pakistanis and Iraqis.

They weren't invited. If you want them shot dead or left in starvation at the borders, why don't you just say so, so we all know where we stand.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 154):
Last time I remember Germany kept the labor market closed for anyone from the 2004 EU expansion (while preaching the EU gospel) for the maximum time possible, if 20 years embargo was available it would have been adopted.

Not very European, is it? Guess what, we have our own populist anti-EU parties as well. The seven year embargo was pushed through by populist demand; it was unnecessary but implemented because of xenophobic fears of all the Eastern Europeans "coming here and stealing our jobs".
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:54 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):
What are these unilateral decisions? Germany, or any other member state for that matter, can't take any unilateral decisions, that's how the whole thing works.

What unilateral decisions? I know that you have the answer to that question in there somewhere. Hint: Current crisis.

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):
You think this can just collapse and then be magically replaced by something better?

Who said anything about magic? It might even take years to replace but I'd take my chances and say that no matter what comes of it, it will be better balanced than the archaic situation we are currently faced with. Where laws are so antiquated, a united zone of countries is completely open and left vulnerable to anything that comes it's way.

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):
They weren't invited.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that when you open flood gates and invite people in, that everyone and their mother will use that as a catalyst to act, regardless of nationality. Thus the term: economic migrant. There will be lies, "lost documents", tears and so forth to ensure that everyone is let in and there is nothing anyone will be able to do about it. You can't pick and choose who you want to have come your way when outside borders aren't secure. Absolute nonsense. A certain government leader screwed up real bad and now it's too late to do anything.

Worse yet, I really feel for Greece. All these head honchos in the EU are sitting in their armchairs and blaming the country for not properly registering, or worse yet securing their national border. Threatening to sanction and act against Greece if they don't get their act together. The problem didn't originate in Greece, so why are they being held responsible when hundreds of thousands are just landing on their shores. What can they do? Nothing. There thousands of Greek islands and over 200 with people living on them. How can Greece possibly protect itself.

Reading posts here from some of our German members, it becomes quite apparent how dire the situation has become. The German gov't made a grave mistake, and instead of admitting to it and working together, it continues to spiral everything further out of control, isolating itself as everyone else starts takes matters into their own hands. But at the risk of looking like schmucks, loyalists continue to defend the nation blindly.

Quote:
The German government expects a total influx of 3.6 million refugees by 2020, with an average of half a million people arriving each year, German media reported on Thursday, in a country that took in a record 1.1 million migrants last year.

Half a million a year? What a joke and massive underestimation. Over 100,000 already and the sun hasn't even come up yet.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...ope-migrants-germany-idUSKCN0VX2ZW

[Edited 2016-02-28 10:13:19]
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:02 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 158):

Half a million a year? What a joke and massive underestimation. Over 100,000 already and the sun hasn't even come up yet.

You have it wrong, as the German government expects all the other countries in the EU to take their share, even if they were not consulted. Why because the German government has spoken.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:39 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 121):
To be fair though, that was France's doing.   Britain wanted to join twice in the 1960s, and both times de Gaulle prevented it, even though his view of how the EC should work was rather similar to the British view. "But like the dog returns to his vomit, de Gaulle returns to hatred and distrust", noted Harold Macmillan.

And De Gaulle was right, the UK was and is still a US vassal.

Imagine that, the UK claims it's against an EU defense, but it has no problem having US bases on its own soil ! The other countries with bases are ones that lost WW2...

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 132):
Can you blame them for not wanting to just throw money away at other's problems that they did not create?

You mean the City took no part in lending billions to Greece before the crisis ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6326
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:03 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):
Not very European, is it? Guess what, we have our own populist anti-EU parties as well.

That was übereuropean SPD...

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):

They weren't invited.

They feel invited.

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):
If you want them shot dead or left in starvation at the borders, why don't you just say so, so we all know where we stand.

If you naively think you can save the world by moving couple tens? of milions Africans and Asians to Europe while leaving hundreds of millions behind... why don't you just say so, so we all know where we stand.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 160):
Imagine that, the UK claims it's against an EU defense, but it has no problem having US bases on its own soil !

There is no need to duplicate NATO. Period.

Quoting Rara (Reply 157):
If you want them shot dead or left in starvation at the borders

Oh please... Why are Germans on this forum so obsessed with shooting? As if the only options available were open floodgates to uncontrolled immigration and shooting people on the borders.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:24 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 160):
Imagine that, the UK claims it's against an EU defense, but it has no problem having US bases on its own soil ! The other countries with bases are ones that lost WW2...

Some were given under WW2 lend lease on 99 year leases.

RAF Lakenheath: Following French president Charles de Gaulle's insistence in 1959 that all non-French nuclear-capable forces should be withdrawn from his country, the USAF began a redeployment of its North American F-100-equipped units from France. The 48th TFW left its base at Chaumont AB, France on 15 January 1960.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:32 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 158):
What unilateral decisions? I know that you have the answer to that question in there somewhere. Hint: Current crisis.

In other words, refugee crisis. So you want to dissolve the entire European Union because of ONE current crisis. Who knows whether the crisis won't be solved in a couple years? In the early 1990s, we already had a refugee crisis, when millions fled the Balkans. That ended, and most of the people had to return home.

More importantly, you said that there was "a ton of unilateral decisions" coming from Germany. Well, there was really only one, and it wasn't really a decision as such. Last summer, the chancellor told the Hungarians "since you seem unable to humanely register the refugees as you're supposed to, forget about the Dublin procedure and just send the poor bastards onwards to Germany where they'll end up anyway". That was the whole deal. I'm not saying that was a smart thing to do, but it was hardly "a ton of unilateral decisions".

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 158):
You can't pick and choose who you want to have come your way when outside borders aren't secure.

Right, so secure the outside borders then. But then you go on to say that it's impossible to secure the coasts, and that we should let off the poor Greeks because it isn't their fault. Fair enough, but what's the alternative then? If we can't secure the Greek borders and the Greeks can't do it either, how is that Germany's fault?

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 158):
The German gov't made a grave mistake, and instead of admitting to it and working together, it continues to spiral everything further out of control, isolating itself as everyone else starts takes matters into their own hands. But at the risk of looking like schmucks, loyalists continue to defend the nation blindly.

In my view, the German government has made lots and lots of mistakes in the last years.

- Upholding the Dublin Agreement, thereby trying to put the burden on the Southern European countries.
- Failing to instigate a shared European system for distributing refugees.
- Failing to help Greece, Spain etc. to secure their borders.
- Failing to build up Frontex with the necessary resources to control the Southern coast and seas.
- Failing to help end the Syrian civil war with Russia's help.

All this put an enormous and unfair burden on the Southern member states and cost many refugees their life.

Yet all you guys do is criticizing Merkel for the ONLY humane decision she took in that matter: expediting refugees to Germany and beyond instead of letting them be further mistreated along the way. THAT was her crime, in the eyes of the right-wingers of the world. Never mind years and years of extremely egoistic and short-sighted German foreign policy.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 161):
They feel invited.

Suggestions? Should we beat them up a little, just to let them know that we don't really want them here? Should we house them in pig farms?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 161):
If you naively think you can save the world by moving couple tens? of milions Africans and Asians to Europe while leaving hundreds of millions behind... why don't you just say so, so we all know where we stand.

I'm happy for every African and Asian who DOESN'T flee to Europe, but people who have death and starvation to fear don't really care for what I think.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 161):
Oh please... Why are Germans on this forum so obsessed with shooting? As if the only options available were open floodgates to uncontrolled immigration and shooting people on the borders.

But that's what it gets down to. Violence. Whether shooting or police batons, whether we let our own soldiers do it or pay Macedonians for doing the dirty work for us - we'll have to use violence against refugees if we really want a complete stop on migration to Europe. If that's what you flee from - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJtrBg8TQaM - you're not going to stay there just because a European official nicely asks you to.

If you want to play the hardliner, be upfront about the consequences of what you're suggesting.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2251
Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:39 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:44 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 148):
That's it: You want to sell your goods on the continent.
You want to be able to travel freely there, but you don't want us pesky continentals to come
to you.

Me and my family spent 10 days in Austria in 1993 which was before Sweden had entered EU.
The only difference between then and now is that we needed passports then.

--------

Regarding trade. You don't trade with the EU, you trade with the individual countries.

Here are Sweden's biggest trade partners. Of the three biggest trade partners, only one is an EU-country.
http://www.ekonomifakta.se/Fakta/Eko...eshandel/Sveriges-handelspartners/

I don't know but I am pretty sure that the biggest trade partners today are the same as
before Sweden joined the European Union.

Another article from 2009 suggests that Swedish export to EU-countries had increased by
140% in 2009 but that export to non EU-countries had increased by 150%.

http://www.ekonomifakta.se/Artiklar/...el-med-EU-fore-och-efter-intradet/
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:07 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 164):
Here are Sweden's biggest trade partners. Of the three biggest trade partners, only one is an EU-country.
http://www.ekonomifakta.se/Fakta/Eko...ners/

But the fourth is. And the fifth. And the sixth. And the seventh. And the eighth. And the ninth. And the eleventh. And the twelfth. And the thirteenth.  
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Sun Feb 28, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 164):
Regarding trade. You don't trade with the EU, you trade with the individual countries.

Yes and no. If you make a product following EU standards, you can sell it to 28 countries (even more in fact, because EU standards are followed by many more countries) at once. Sure you still need a translated packaging, localised marketing etc., but the product itself doesn't have to change.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:42 am

Anyone know why the UK government has delayed the whole vote by about four months?

I'd have thought that putting the whole country into a state of uncertainty on such an important issue for such a long period is asking for (mainly economic) trouble?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20071
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:04 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 167):
Anyone know why the UK government has delayed the whole vote by about four months?

I don't think it's been delayed at all. Many expected a referendum in 2017. I don't really see how such an important event can be setup, debated and decided in much less than four months.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 11:17 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 164):
Regarding trade. You don't trade with the EU, you trade with the individual countries.

You can't make a trade agreement with a single EU country. Trade policy is an EU exclusive power.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:02 pm

Please watch this video from this morning at the border tell me that these barbarians are the same people you think will be "integrated" in your calm and welcoming German city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35687257

Quoting Rara (Reply 163):
Who knows whether the crisis won't be solved in a couple years?

Who cares when this crisis will be solved? Germany sure doesn't it seems. We shouldn't have had this crisis to begin with.

Quoting Rara (Reply 163):
Fair enough, but what's the alternative then? If we can't secure the Greek borders and the Greeks can't do it either, how is that Germany's fault?

Simple, it's Germany's fault because Merkel opened her big mouth and invited everyone (yes, everyone, because we already established that you can't open borders and selectively invite Syrians). Too late for a common alternative, she should have thought of that earlier, now it's every country for themselves.

Quote:
But she had little new to say to Will when the journalist confronted her with Austria and the western Balkan nations' decision last week to close their borders – in apparent contradiction of what was agreed at the last European summit on February 18th.

That's left thousands of migrants stranded in Greece - the first point where most refugees fleeing through Turkey set foot on European soil - which is already struggling under the numbers arriving.

"This is exactly what I'm afraid of," Merkel said. "If one person sets his border, the other has to suffer. That is not my Europe."

You're right, Merkel... It's not your Europe, so stop acting like it is.

[Edited 2016-02-29 04:10:02]

[Edited 2016-02-29 04:10:43]
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 170):
Please watch this video from this morning at the border tell me that these barbarians are the same people you think will be "integrated" in your calm and welcoming German city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-euro...87257

If you ever had some military knowledge, you'd know that the sole purpose of an obstacle, like barbed wire, a fence or a mine field is to slow down movement, but unless it is permanently guarded with lethal force (e.g. under permanent observation by machine gun posts), given enough time, it will be overcome.
If I were one of the guys there, the fence would be a provocation.
So if you want to keep the people out of Europe you'd better be willing to use lethal force against unarmed civvies, or if you are a coward, pay others to do the dirty work for you.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:43 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 171):
If you ever had some military knowledge, you'd know that the sole purpose of an obstacle, like barbed wire, a fence or a mine field is to slow down movement, but unless it is permanently guarded with lethal force (e.g. under permanent observation by machine gun posts), given enough time, it will be overcome.

Who ever said or implied that these flimsy, tiny fences were a permanent solution? I was just pointing out the nature of these entitled people, who are willing to tear down anything in their way to achieve what they want. They don't follow rules and act like animals, and I personally don't expect them to adhere to anything once they arrive at their carefully chosen destination either.

The same people that will be the future model citizens of the EU. Never mind the fact that all you can basically see is young men, chanting and pumping each other up. Provocation or not, if you want to be taken seriously and accepted, show some dignity and respect for the forces of the same countries you are trying to settle in.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:52 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 171):

Here we go with the shooting/lethal force again...


Germany opened the flood gates without as far as I know without consultation with other EU partners.

Greece,Macedonia,Balkans and Austria have become overwhelmed.

Sorry this is Germany's problem. You opened the flood gates, you sort it out.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:00 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 173):
Sorry this is Germany's problem. You opened the flood gates, you sort it out.

The gov't out there must have really succeeded in brainwashing a good portion of their citizens into thinking everything is under control. There is simply no other explanation for the steadfast determination with which these folks continue to defend their leaders when every other country has begun to see the truth. Even previous allies on the subject.

The subject is so mute now that the only defense now can be summarized in the form of "What do you propose? Shoot them all?". It always comes down to everyone else needing to solve the issue now that Germany is completely overwhelmed, but Germany not holding any responsibility.

I'm glad to hear Germans as a whole though, are slowly changing their minds too. The amount of supporters is dwindling, at least whatever we can believe in the media these days.

Germany imposed daily caps on immigrants crossing into Bavaria from Austria, yet when Austria did the same they show no embarrassment in having the guts to speak out against it. Quite cowardly behavior.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:20 pm

The problem is that most of what you accuse the German leadership of doing happened only in your head.

Germany "invited refugees", "opened the floodgate", thinks that people from war-ridden countries "can become model citizens", wants to solve its demographic problem by taking in millions of refugees, took "tons of unilateral decisions" - NONE of this happened. It's all made up.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 174):
"What do you propose? Shoot them all?"

Well, what DO you propose?
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:15 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 175):
It's all made up.

Right.  

Scroll back in daily history back to the spring of 2015 and follow the events closely to find that those things actually did happen. I'm referring to opening doors and saying everyone is welcome / will be accommodated. Not sure where the demographic problem theory came about, so I'll lay off of that one.

Quoting Rara (Reply 175):
Well, what DO you propose?

For starters, secure borders immediately. Make it publicly and LOUDLY known that capacity has been reached and the EU can't accept anymore refugees because the systems are overwhelmed, in every country. The key is that everyone needs to be on the same page and act in a united matter. Blast that out in the media. Slowly integrate passport controls at the borders, even if they are spot checks for now. Doesn't take a long time to grab your passport on your way out the door.

If immigrants in Turkey know they won't be allowed in 100%, they won't start the journey - these people are spending a lot of money by purchasing spots on unsafe boats. They travel because examples show everyone makes it to their destinations eventually. If this is done correctly and all countries close for proper border control, Greece will not be overwhelmed as migrant patterns have already shown that they don't want to stay there, they won't come in the same masses as they are now.

Simple things will help. But instead Merkel speaks her mouth daily about how she still feels she's correct. No policy change coming from the "Mother of Europe" will just further contribute to the circus that we are seeing.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 757
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:11 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 175):
The problem is that most of what you accuse the German leadership of doing happened only in your head.

Germany "invited refugees", "opened the floodgate", thinks that people from war-ridden countries "can become model citizens", wants to solve its demographic problem by taking in millions of refugees, took "tons of unilateral decisions" - NONE of this happened. It's all made up.

"We can do it."

That's the message Chancellor Angela Merkel has been giving her country ever since she pledged in late August to provide refuge to anyone coming from Syria in addition to others seeking protection from violence and warfare.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 176):
Scroll back in daily history back to the spring of 2015 and follow the events closely to find that those things actually did happen. I'm referring to opening doors and saying everyone is welcome / will be accommodated.

Didn't happen. Sorry, that's just plain wrong. Maybe that's what you thought you heard, maybe - crucially - that's what refugees in Syria and other places heard or wanted to hear, maybe that's what traffickers told them, but it didn't happen.

What DID happen was that the German government in October told countries like Hungary to suspend registration and expedite the refugees straight to Germany where they would have ended up anyway. I share your assessment that this was a naive move. Coupled with TV pictures of Germans welcoming the refugees at e.g. Munich central station, it gave people the impression that Germans actually wanted refugees to come here, which was never the case.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 176):
If immigrants in Turkey know they won't be allowed in 100%, they won't start the journey - these people are spending a lot of money by purchasing spots on unsafe boats. They travel because examples show everyone makes it to their destinations eventually. If this is done correctly and all countries close for proper border control, Greece will not be overwhelmed as migrant patterns have already shown that they don't want to stay there, they won't come in the same masses as they are now.

While this will prevent some freeriders from safe countries to make the journey, plenty of people are desperate enough to attempt to enter the EU anyway. If they stay in Syria they'll die from an air strike or be killed by the IS, so they've got nothing to lose. Close all borders, and they will pile up before the barricades. Slums and wild camps will form, there will be violence, and yes, even though people on this board don't like to read this, there will be shots fired. Just watch the video you posted earlier; there'll be a lot more of this.

But I think that's what's going to happen now. We can bring the flow of refugees to a standstill; but we can't do while upholding our values. It'll get ugly.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:19 pm

Well a few things that could be done:-

1] Make it EU law [there we go] that any person entering the EU uninvited is doing so to protect them from harm to life in their own country then , others returned immediately What this means should be written into the law :-

a] They are guest workers for life, rather than becoming eventually a German or whatever citizen.
b] As they are guest worker s they have to stay in the original country that registered them. They have no rights to
roam around the EU.
c] They will be sent home as soon as their home country is declared safe
d] They have no right to claim benefits in the EU except the minimum to survive.
e] Fence off the land border and return any migrants from non war torn countries across it.
f ] No relatives will be allowed to subsequently follow them.
g] Any one wishing to return home will be given assistance to do so by the cheapest possible method

Now these sound tough, but this is a serious problem.The Human Rights Lawyers will I know love it, but perhaps new laws to curb them will have to be passed

liitle vc10

[Edited 2016-02-29 10:22:45]
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
f ] No relatives will be allowed to subsequently follow them.

Regardless of new or old rules, this bullet point is something I never understood in current EU law.

Mindblowing that EU countries allow a young man to enter and claim asylum, followed by benefits, and then allow him to bring over his immediate family. For folks of this demographic, this can be up to 3-4 members each. All of a sudden 1.1 million immigrants turns into 4 mil + for that year (even though others will join years later, we'll count them as part of the same cohort group according to their original family member who landed). In turn, all these folks now claim benefits against the social system.

I bet that healthcare and other social systems will see huge reforms in years to come because the system will not be able to handle this influx of asylum seekers alone, never-mind their dependents who join later on their behalf.

Things have worked until now because we haven't seen migration on this scale before, but this, this is a whole 'nuther beast.
 
User avatar
larshjort
Posts: 1445
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:54 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:01 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):

1] Make it EU law [there we go] that any person entering the EU uninvited is doing so to protect them from harm to life in their own country then , others returned immediately What this means should be written into the law :-


Don't know about UK but this is the case in Denmark and has been for a long time. The trouble is living up to the word of the law. All people coming to Denmark claiming asylum will have there case investigated, if they are granted asylum it is because they are refugees, their case will be denied if they are just immigrants and here is where the issue starts. The decision in each case can take upwards to a year, and this is not something new. This should be established if not in a matter of days, then weeks. Next issue is sending the illigal immigrants back home, in order for us to do this we need an agreement with the recipient country to take them back, which they don't want to do in many cases thus we keep having them in camps in Denmark where they don't really have anything to loose if they commit criminality as they are already scheduled to be shipped out of EU.
These are current rules, and I suspect they are similar in the rest of EU. There is and was just not enough resources to make sure these rules are being followed.

IMO we need to take refugees as per the 1952 UN refugee convention whch all countries of EU is a party to, but econimc iigrants need to be shipped home, and preferrably shown the door at the border, but as it looks now this is not possible with the current state of Frontex and the external orders of EU.

/Lars
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:41 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
1] Make it EU law [there we go] that any person entering the EU uninvited is doing so to protect them from harm to life in their own country then , others returned immediately What this means should be written into the law :-

This is already the case, at least by law. Needs to be better implemented; then again it's tough if the originating countries aren't collaborating. You can't just give people a parachute and throw them from an airplane over Marocco.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
a] They are guest workers for life, rather than becoming eventually a German or whatever citizen.

Where's the sense in that? Say someone enters as an asylum seeker, finds a job, learns German, marries, has children, becomes a successful man and makes Germany his home. Alright, he can't become a citizen. First of all - why not; second of all - can he go back to his home country, then return and then become a citizen? If yes, why ban him in the first place? If not, why not?

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
b] As they are guest worker s they have to stay in the original country that registered them. They have no rights to
roam around the EU.

Already the case; they can't even roam around the country they're in. They're forced to remain at whichever town they're placed at.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
c] They will be sent home as soon as their home country is declared safe

Already the case. The she-devil (Merkel) pointed that out several times. She even made a little girl cry by telling her that she'd have to return home one day, for which she was vilified on this very forum.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
d] They have no right to claim benefits in the EU except the minimum to survive.

Already the case.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
e] Fence off the land border and return any migrants from non war torn countries across it.

Already the case; see point 1 for relevant complications.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
f ] No relatives will be allowed to subsequently follow them.

Yes, this is an interesting point. I don't disagree with this per se, but you do realize the cruelty of telling someone "either you go back right into the hellish war you just came from that gives you nightmares every night, or you may potentially never see your family again", don't you?

I'm especially fond of Conservatives making this suggestion. You know, the people who hold family values in such high regard.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 179):
g] Any one wishing to return home will be given assistance to do so by the cheapest possible method

Already the case, and subject to intense criticism. "Assistance" always draws the entrepreneurial types. For a while there were people from the Balkans coming to Germany, claiming asylum, being denied asylum, then claiming their "assistance" (some 200 Euros) and going back home with it; rinse and repeat.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13558
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Mon Feb 29, 2016 9:50 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 133):
Out to hell with it! I've had enough of the EU and it's regulations, I would be glad to see the back of it. We don't need to be controlled by foreign entities!!

Not going to happen, you might be out but like Norway and Switzerland you'll follow all the rules and have no say in making them.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 160):
Imagine that, the UK claims it's against an EU defense, but it has no problem having US bases on its own soil ! The other countries with bases are ones that lost WW2...

Norway has massive US supply dumps in caves around the country, these are US bases of a sort, there's enough equipment to support an entire Marine division.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 171):
So if you want to keep the people out of Europe you'd better be willing to use lethal force against unarmed civvies

If that's what has to be done to secure Europes borders then I'm fine with that. It's won't take long before they stope coming.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:31 am

The number of refugees able to cross the UK border illegally is so low it doesn't even register, how can it be a reason to leave the EU ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Tue Mar 01, 2016 11:16 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 167):
Anyone know why the UK government has delayed the whole vote by about four months?

I'd have thought that putting the whole country into a state of uncertainty on such an important issue for such a long period is asking for (mainly economic) trouble?

The Conservative election manifesto promised a vote by 2017, so its not in any way delayed, rather it is earlier than many anticipated.
As to the 4 months notice of the vote, under UK election rules their aren't that many available days:

Elections are always held on Thursdays
Never during school holidays
Never over public holiday weekends
Can't have more than 3 votes taking place on one day

June 23rd was probably the first available date.
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:50 am

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 185):
June 23rd was probably the first available date.

Please enlighten me on the last time ANY UK election was last deferred for as much as four months, Bongodong1964?

You're welcome to include general elections (even wartime ones) if you like!  

I think myself that the British are 'deferring' things because they know, same as we do, that as things stand, the UK public will almost certainly vote (by a fairly low margin) to leave the EU.......

[Edited 2016-03-01 21:24:42]
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20071
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:30 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 186):
Please enlighten me on the last time ANY UK election was last deferred for as much as four months, Bongodong1964?

It hasn't been "deferred".   

By way of comparrison, the date of the Scottish Independence referendum was known 18 months before the vote.

Honestly, how do you expect such a serious issue to be debated and decided in less than four months?

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 186):
I think myself that the British are 'deferring' things because they know, same as we do, that as things stand, the UK public will almost certainly vote (by a fairly low margin) to leave the EU.......

Who exactly, are "the British"? IMHO, I'm expecting a fairly comfortable vote to stay in.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:25 am

Are EU expats living permanently in the UK eligible to vote or is this tied to the British citizenship?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
OA260
Topic Author
Posts: 25579
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:43 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 188):

Who will be able to vote?

British, Irish and Commonwealth citizens over 18 who are resident in the UK, along with UK nationals living abroad who have been on the electoral register in the UK in the past 15 years. Members of the House of Lords and Commonwealth citizens in Gibraltar will also be eligible, unlike in a general election. Citizens from EU countries - apart from Ireland, Malta and Cyprus - will not get a vote.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-32810887
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:54 am

France economy minister sends double Brexit warning to UK : http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2c669fd4-e...17-6ae3733a2cd1.html#ixzz41oQvarSn

Quote:
France would relocate its migrant camp from Calais to Britain and roll out “a red carpet” for bankers fleeing London if the UK leaves the EU, according to Emmanuel Macron, the French economy minister.
Speaking ahead of an Anglo-French summit, Mr Macron said the bilateral relationship could change abruptly in the event of a Brexit, including the creation of new obstacles to trade between the two countries.

Mr Macron said that Brexit could scupper a bilateral deal with France, known as the Le Touquet agreement, that allows Britain to carry out border controls — and keep unwanted migrants — on the French side of the Channel.
In an interview with the Financial Times, he also said he expected financial services workers in London to relocate to France once their institutions lost the “passport” rights that allow them to operate across the EU.

Emmanuel Macron isn't the first French politician to say this, but he's a very popular man, some even wonder if he's preparing a presidential campaign.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2014 9:16 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:56 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 190):
Speaking ahead of an Anglo-French summit, Mr Macron said the bilateral relationship could change abruptly in the event of a Brexit, including the creation of new obstacles to trade between the two countries.

Have to mention that, having been born in 1939, Aesma, I still vividly recall being bombed by the Luftwaffe, in the days (1940-1942) when Britain literally 'stood alone' against Nazi Germany. Aided by its Commonwealth and the United States, it later played the leading role in liberating France.

If it hadn't been for Britain, Nazi Germany would probably have conquered and held the whole of Western Europe - and France (which surrendered way back in 1940) would very possibly have remained some sort of German 'colony' to this day......

I'd be grateful if you'd be a bit more respectful?
 
JJJ
Posts: 4105
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:48 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 191):
I'd be grateful if you'd be a bit more respectful?

Excuse me but how is quoting to the words of a relevant French politician disrespectful?

(or any less disrespectful than the kind of vitriol spewed towards the EU and some of its members by Brexit proponents?)
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:08 am

Britain sure did fight well in WW2 (and WW1), but the importance of being an island can't be overstated enough. And the idiocy of Hitler invading Russia.

Nothing to do with current day EU politics, though. The UK was a major backer of unfettered free trade inside the EU, leading for example to French farmers being unable to compete (and unwilling, as French people demand better quality), now they complain that with free trade came free movement of people, well, if you remove one there will be barriers to the other, it's how it is.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:36 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 190):
France economy minister sends double Brexit warning to UK : http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2c669fd4-e....17-6

So I understand under international law, a country can send refuges back to the country they have just left as long as it is decreed as a safe country. Therefore any refuge caught at Dover would be sent back to France, The checking at Dover
would have to be more thorough so causing huge tail backs in France.

If this became a problem the ultimate solution would be to restrict traffic through the tunnel and on the ferries , This I agree would be drastic. but as the tunnel and the Shuttle are now mostly owned by the French it would be more their problem than ours . Now ferries can operate from Belgium or Dutch ports , more expensive and probably restrictive to start with , but not impossible.Iif the EU passed a law banning trade from other countries ports well was that not Napoleon dictate.

No like many threats made in the UK about leaving the EU they are for public consumption rather than government policy

littlevc10
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14602
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:11 am

People can go to Belgium and the Netherlands too, you know. In fact the problem is already there and their ports are much less protected than Calais.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:15 am

The tunnel and the ferries may be mostly owned by the French now, but a large part of the the UK national economy depends on a functionable link tio the rest of Europe.

I had man years an account which required bspare parts to arrive at their London warehouse by 6 am, total Transit time available was about 12 hrs. Since he camp in Dover exists this is practicably impossible or can be done only at extremely higher costs. I am glad I lost that account years ago, it would have impossible to carry on now.

I really don't understand that the UK does not set an example, let These guys in, and turn them around back to France within a day. The cost of refusing the illegal migrants is by far greater, not only to the UK.

If the UK Exits the EU, why should France not open the floodgates abd let them walk the 40 Kilometers.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
OA260
Topic Author
Posts: 25579
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 191):
If it hadn't been for Britain, Nazi Germany would probably have conquered and held the whole of Western Europe - and France (which surrendered way back in 1940) would very possibly have remained some sort of German 'colony' to this day......

Very true and some people have short memories. France trying to threaten the UK voters with such things will actually have a reverse effect and it is quite ignorant and stupid on their behalf. France has failed to sort out the Calais camps for years just hoping that they would indeed one by one get into the UK. Wasnt going to happen and never will. In future any illegals coming across should be like the airlines get punished and France should be fined 10K per violation with them all being returned to France.
 
User avatar
OA260
Topic Author
Posts: 25579
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:24 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 196):
If the UK Exits the EU, why should France not open the floodgates abd let them walk the 40 Kilometers.

Because it would be a violation of international borders and law? Is that what the EU stands for these days? Very slippery slope there and dangerous.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:42 am

They could make These guys an offer they cannot refuse. Instead of dwelling illegally they process a short application for asylum in France which then makes trhem eligable to go to the UK.

Free rail ticket included.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 196):
I really don't understand that the UK does not set an example, let These guys in, and turn them around back to France within a day. The cost of refusing the illegal migrants is by far greater, not only to the UK.

Well, that's another Version which you cared to ignore. Right now the UK is constantly Shooting itself into the knees by allowing the Calais mess to happen.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: afcjets and 39 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos