UK In Out EU Referendum Announced For 23rd June

OA260 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:36 pm

Just announced the referendum for the decision to stay or leave the EU will be held on 23rd June.

David Cameron claims he has secured a "historic" deal from Brussels - and now the voters will get the chance to have their say.

Prime Minister David Cameron has confirmed a referendum on Britain's membership of the European Union will be held on 23 June.

The PM briefed his ministers at a Cabinet meeting on Saturday morning after leaving Brussels with what he described as a "historic" deal on the UK's future relationship with Europe after talks with EU leaders.

Speaking outside Downing Street, Mr Cameron warned that leaving the EU would be a "leap in the dark" as he urged voters to back his reforms

http://news.sky.com/story/1645412/pm...s-eu-referendum-will-be-on-23-june

scbriml · Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:50 pm

Hopefully sights like this will make the majority of people see sense and vote to stay in!

OA260 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:02 pm

The key points of the deal are:

An "emergency brake" on migrants' in-work benefits for four years when there are "exceptional" levels of migration. The UK will be able to operate the brake for seven years
Child benefit for the children of EU migrants living overseas will now be paid at a rate based on the cost of living in their home country - applicable immediately for new arrivals and from 2020 for the 34,000 existing claimants
The amending of EU treaties to state explicitly that references to the requirement to seek ever-closer union "do not apply to the United Kingdom", meaning Britain "can never be forced into political integration"
The ability for the UK to enact "an emergency safeguard" to protect the City of London, to stop UK firms being forced to relocate into Europe and to ensure British businesses do not face "discrimination" for being outside the eurozone

The prime minster had to make concessions to get a deal with the leaders of the 27 other EU members.

Mr Cameron had originally wanted a complete ban on migrants sending child benefit abroad but had to compromise after some eastern European states rejected that and also insisted that existing claimants should continue to receive the full payment.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-35616768

Rara · Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:21 pm

His "historic breakthrough" is largely a joke, orchestrated in close collaboration with his colleagues who were kind of enough to pretend and "negotiate through the night" even though it was clear from the beginning that the whole thing is just for show. The idea is for UK citizens to believe that he really fought hard and got the best possible deal for the UK. It could work; then again, the inhabitants of the British Isles have never struck me as particularly gullible or daft.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
An "emergency brake" on migrants' in-work benefits for four years when there are "exceptional" levels of migration. The UK will be able to operate the brake for seven years

Typical EU compromise. Will lose its effect after a while. Similar to the seven-year barrier that countries like the UK and Germany put up to the citizens of new EU member states a while back. The seven years passed, and after that, nothing much happened.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
Child benefit for the children of EU migrants living overseas will now be paid at a rate based on the cost of living in their home country - applicable immediately for new arrivals and from 2020 for the 34,000 existing claimants

That'll save the UK a grand total of... nothing much at all, and will come at the expense of some poor bastards for who it means a lot. Still, arguably fair enough and not totally against the spirit of the European treaties.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
The amending of EU treaties to state explicitly that references to the requirement to seek ever-closer union "do not apply to the United Kingdom", meaning Britain "can never be forced into political integration"

Entirely symbolic and ultimately meaningless.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
The ability for the UK to enact "an emergency safeguard" to protect the City of London, to stop UK firms being forced to relocate into Europe and to ensure British businesses do not face "discrimination" for being outside the eurozone

This could also be called "The ability for the UK to have its cake and eat it too" because that's what it gets down to. Unless there is a second cake somewhere, it's hard to see how this could be put into practice.

Anyway, my prediction is that UK business, industrial and political elites will now get busy and try to ensure a Yes in June's referendum. Unless our common conception of how the powers that be can shape and influence public opinion are totally off, they will succeed in doing so.

scbriml · Sat Feb 20, 2016 1:52 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
Anyway, my prediction is that UK business, industrial and political elites will now get busy and try to ensure a Yes in June's referendum. Unless our common conception of how the powers that be can shape and influence public opinion are totally off, they will succeed in doing so.

Of course, they understand which side their bread is buttered.

The rag-tag collection of racist loonies urging withdrawal from the EU should also be enough to frighten people into voting to stay in.

GDB · Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:33 pm

In 1975 the referendum was about patching up splits on this issue in the then Labour government, it was mostly the left, led by Tony Benn, who wanted out just after we had joined. (In the 60's he was pro what was then called the EEC but when he developed his 'alternative economic plans' in the 70's he realised they were not compatible with what he now called a 'Capitalist Club').
He made a strange bedfellow politically with the likes of Enoch Powell and other Tories who wanted out too, but Labour were much more split back then.
For all his faults, Prime Minister Harold Wilson was a canny operator who only called the referendum when he was fairly certain he would win it.

Today it's the Tories who on Europe remind me at times of the Republican Party in the USA, on Europe many of them just cannot be rational as with the GOP on guns, health and having one of 'those people' as the current President.
But it's for many of the Tories, unknown to them that it was their St Maggie who signed the Single European Act in 1986. They liked the concessions on contributions she got two years before, maybe they thought it would always be as simple as that.

Some of us remember the utter civil war poor old John Major had to endure over Europe, in his party, including some cabinet members, whom he memorably called 'bastards'.
Some reward for him too getting real concessions for the UK, which goes to show for a large slice of the Tory Party, no deal, no concessions for the UK, are ever enough.
(As for William Hague's laughable assertion that his landslide defeat to Blair in 2001 kept the UK out of the Euro, credit must go here to one Gordon Brown, who blocked Blair's plans for us to join that currency).

I know a lot of this must sound very silly to many other EU nations, all this internal party policy stuff on such big, long term issues, we were right about the Euro though!
As for Labour today, well don't expect much campaigning from that nitwit currently 'leading' them.

I don't like Cameron, don't like most of his policies, after winning the Scottish referendum I think his response was ungracious and potentially damaging for the Union in the future though as it turned put, as probably intended, helpful politically in the last election.
But! If he wins the 'in' vote, his place in history will be assured, though I doubt his party will be happy about it.
If Labour could only pick half decent leaders a resulting potential split in the Tories could be helpful to them but at the moment.......well no.

Apparently the nation awaits what side 'Boris' is going to come down on, what an overinflated ego!

Dano1977 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:42 pm

As much as it pains me, I'm going to have to side with the "VOTE OUT". Until the Freedom Of Movement is limited there is no way I'd vote to continue with the current state of affairs.

It's frustrating. If Cameron had a set of balls and a brain, he'd realise that Joe Average cares far more about border control than advanced economics. If campaigned to control our own borders on a means-tested basis I think he'd have won. As it is, I forecast a win for the Out camp. The conservative (small C) vote was vastly underestimated at the last General Election and I think it will be again. The thought of being a nation that controls our own borders will be very enticing to those at the lower end of the pay scale who feel unable to get paid much as EU citizens enable cheap labour. It will appeal to the downright xenophobes who just hate people with accents. It will appeal to those who've witnessed their local areas change beyond recognition. It will appeal to those who feel the prospect of adding an Islamic country like Turkey to the mix will be a security risk. It will appeal to the patriotic. It will appeal to those sick of perceived EU red tape.

There's a lot of people out there who perhaps aren't eloquent enough to post on forums/websites and give their views concisely. They are the people the IN camp should be very worried about in my opinion

larshjort · Sat Feb 20, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 6):

It's frustrating. If Cameron had a set of balls and a brain, he'd realise that Joe Average cares far more about border control than advanced economics. If campaigned to control our own borders on a means-tested basis I think he'd have won.

What am I not understanding here? UK is not part of Schengen and control it's own borders. The only way to enter UK without showing a passport is via Ireland.
If you want to prevent EU citizens from working in UK please don't let the door hit you on the wait out, then we can throw all the UK contractors back home as well.

Aesma · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:04 pm

Yep, about 2 millions UK citizens will be in a very awkward position if the UK leaves.

The irony is that it's the UK that was all for expanding the EU and getting as many people demanding low salaries as possible, and not only did it succeed but now for many millions they don't want to immigrate to the EU or even western EU, their only goal is the UK.

If the UK stays in it could spell the end of the EU, it the UK goes out, it could also spell the end of the EU, so Cameron's games could indeed land him in the history books.

I expect many EU citizens will want to have their own vote, either on the deal given to the UK, or even on keeping the UK or not. That could be fun.

MD11Engineer · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:17 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 7):
If you want to prevent EU citizens from working in UK please don't let the door hit you on the wait out, then we can throw all the UK contractors back home as well.

Plus all the British expat retirees in their enclaves in Spain and portugal.

Jan

MD11Engineer · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 8):
If the UK stays in it could spell the end of the EU, it the UK goes out, it could also spell the end of the EU, so Cameron's games could indeed land him in the history books.

This actually might be the endgame, for those Brits who still mentally live in the olden days: Make sure that continental Europe will never be united, with each country played against each other, and the UK in it's splendid isolation, selling goods and services. Only that it isn't the 19th century anymore, and Britain could find itself really isolated.

Btw., the winner will be Putin.

Jan

[Edited 2016-02-20 07:22:23]

OA260 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Plus all the British expat retirees in their enclaves in Spain and portugal.

Who actually prop up the Spanish and Portuguese economies as they get UK pensions and have quite a bit of income to spend locally. So I doubt Spain and Portugal would want to see them all go home

GDB · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:43 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
Btw., the winner will be Putin.

A very good point.

MD11Engineer · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:52 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Plus all the British expat retirees in their enclaves in Spain and portugal.

Who actually prop up the Spanish and Portuguese economies as they get UK pensions and have quite a bit of income to spend locally. So I doubt Spain and Portugal would want to see them all go home

So it is back to "The EU needs us more than we need them"?
I know that in many of these places the locals are pretty much fed up with those colonies of expats (I include Germans and Dutch as well), who stick to their own, refuse to learn the local language and keep on bitching about the locals.

Jan

OA260 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 3:57 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
So it is back to "The EU needs us more than we need them"?

You are the one who added to the statement about them being sent back to the UK so what basis and source do you have that Portugal and Spain wish to see them go in the event of a UK withdrawal ? Or are you just venting ?

Im all for debating the realistic topics in hand but lets not get stupid about ''sending them all home'' as it really adds nothing to the topic in hand. If you can give me a factual source that states that the Spanish and Portuguese would like to see that aspect of their economy closed off then please quote it with a link.

Tugger · Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:33 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
I know that in many of these places the locals are pretty much fed up with those colonies of expats (I include Germans and Dutch as well), who stick to their own, refuse to learn the local language and keep on bitching about the locals.

Isn't this what expats and immigrants in most all countries do? Isn't that what Britain and Germany and France and even including the USA complain about the immigrant communities doing in their countries?

What is the real difference?

Tugg

MD11Engineer · Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:35 pm

Most Spanish and Portugese, who go to Britain to live there, go there for work. Very few retire there. Those people working in the UK send back money. Do you really think that Spain and Portugal will not retaliate if their people won't get work permits in the UK anymore?

Jan

BestWestern · Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:40 pm

I hope that the UK stays in the EU.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 14):
If you can give me a factual source that states that the Spanish and Portuguese would like to see that aspect of their economy closed off then please quote it with a link.

Totally agree. Wealthy people are always welcome. All that will happen is that these people will no longer be able to rely on Spanish / Portuguese public health services whilst abroad.

I am most surprised that the Northern Ireland secretary is advocating a no vote - considering how much investment over the decades that Northern Ireland has received from the UK. 8.4% of Northern Ireland GDP came directly from EU funding in the last funding period.

http://crossborder.ie/site2015/wp-co...brexit-ceti-specialist-advisor.pdf

MD11Engineer · Sat Feb 20, 2016 4:50 pm

Quoting Tugger (Reply 15):
I know that in many of these places the locals are pretty much fed up with those colonies of expats (I include Germans and Dutch as well), who stick to their own, refuse to learn the local language and keep on bitching about the locals.

Isn't this what expats and immigrants in most all countries do? Isn't that what Britain and Germany and France and even including the USA complain about the immigrant communities doing in their countries?

What is the real difference?

Tugg

I have been an expat myself (in Ireland), but I mixed with very few Germans. And if I stay in a place for a longer period of time, I tend to make at least an effort to learn the local language.

Jan

Tugger · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:12 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 18):
I have been an expat myself (in Ireland), but I mixed with very few Germans. And if I stay in a place for a longer period of time, I tend to make at least an effort to learn the local language.

Yes, that is the best and I think smartest way to be when in another nation. Integrate, learn the language and customs, and become more a local that a foreigner or tourist. Even as a tourist it is smart to know the local customs somewhat at least and to learn at least a few words in the local language. It is not that hard and people really appreciate it.

You don't lose "yourself" or your heritage or anything, but many people consider it an attack on others if you suggest that immigrants do such.

Tugg

[Edited 2016-02-20 09:12:35]

OA260 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:12 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
Do you really think that Spain and Portugal will not retaliate if their people won't get work permits in the UK anymore?

Not if it was going to hurt them too. If the UK exited the EU then they would not expel all other EU citizens that just stupid to suggest.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
All that will happen is that these people will no longer be able to rely on Spanish / Portuguese public health services whilst abroad.

Knowing alot of people down in Lanzarote most have private healthcare.Anyone moving from Ireland/UK needs to have private cover and generally do and they are not a burden on the national healthcare systems. Same as when UK/Irish tourists go on holidays they have private travel insurance.

Should the UK leave and to be honest I doubt they will then there would be an orderly slow exit and new bilateral agreements in place with the EU similar to some other non EU European nations currently have. The EU would not want to just cut off the UK as one cant ignore such an economy and trade. To do so would be stupid and not benefit anyone. There does however need to be major changes in the EU and the old days of out of date policies that were drawn up for a smaller club are gone!

Dano1977 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 5:42 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
Should the UK leave and to be honest I doubt they will then there would be an orderly slow exit and new bilateral agreements in place with the EU similar to some other non EU European nations currently have. The EU would not want to just cut off the UK as one cant ignore such an economy and trade. To do so would be stupid and not benefit anyone. There does however need to be major changes in the EU and the old days of out of date policies that were drawn up for a smaller club are gone!

If there is a vote for exit, then under article 50, we have 2 years to negotiate an amicable split. But I don't believe there are any rules saying that those 2 years can be extended with the agreement of the remaining members.

Interesting article from the WSJ on why a "BrExit" would be beneficial.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/a-better...outside-the-eu-1455917425?mod=e2fb

A few debating points...

The UK has huge advantages over other EU countries when it comes to starting and operating businesses. For example, highly developed supply chains, flexible labour markets, a stable political environment, a competitive tax regime, a world-renowned (and much-copied) legal system, the English language (the international language of business), a stable currency and so on. The assertion that foreign companies only set up operations in the UK as a bridgehead into Europe is illogical. If that was the case, they would have set up their businesses in a Eurozone country, minimising transport, distribution and foreign exchange costs.

It’s also the case that more than 6 million European jobs are linked to the EU27’s export trade to the UK (we’re their biggest customer). It’s in neither side’s interests to throw their toys out of the pram should a brexit happen.

The free trade agreements negotiated by the Commission’s bureaucrats have been a disaster for the UK. The combined GDP of the counterparties to EU free trade deals is only $6.7 trillion. Compare that to the achievements of these four countries, which are much smaller than the UK: Chile $58.3 trillion (almost 9 times the EU’s figure), South Korea $40.8 trillion, Switzerland $39.8 trillion, and Singapore: $38.7 trillion. The UK is the world’s 5th largest economy, it could do much better than the Eurocrats. So if smaller countries can do better than a combined Europe. Nothing to stop Britain getting a better deal?

GDB · Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:04 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
I am most surprised that the Northern Ireland secretary is advocating a no vote

I'm not, she is not that bright, started out at the Ministry Of Transport but her seat being full of anti LHR Nimby's (who she courted) made her staying there problematic.
So she was sent to the N.I. Office.

Kiwirob · Sat Feb 20, 2016 7:04 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):

That'll save the UK a grand total of... nothing much at all, and will come at the expense of some poor bastards for who it means a lot. Still, arguably fair enough and not totally against the spirit of the European treaties.

Benefit shopping is vile, anyone doing so gets no sympathy from me when it's cut.

A Polish woman I work with has four kids living in Poland, she gets 970 NOK per child, per month, this is completely wrong, it should not be allowed, that money going to her is coming out of the pockets of Norwegian taxpayers, it's not benefiting anyone in Norway, or the Norwegian economy.

I was in the UK last week, apart from the companies I visited and taxi drivers I didn't interact with a single person who was British, all the hotel, restaurant, and other service people I spoke to were Eastern Europeans, just staggering IMO.

Bongodog1964 · Sat Feb 20, 2016 8:07 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 17):
I am most surprised that the Northern Ireland secretary is advocating a no vote - considering how much investment over the decades that Northern Ireland has received from the UK. 8.4% of Northern Ireland GDP came directly from EU funding in the last funding period.

You speak as if this is money that would not be available in the event of BREXIT . This is just UK money sent to Brussels with an amount sent back after deductions for EU administration and support for poorer economies.

Feelings are running very strong on the matter, and I can easily see the circumstances where the UK will vote to leave. Especially with a vote on June 23rd at the height of the Eastern Med immigration season.

DocLightning · Sat Feb 20, 2016 9:53 pm

I can only think of this video (start watching at 1:08)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDqayC1sR7g

Whichever way this vote goes, don't think that this is going to be the end of the issue.

pvjin · Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:18 pm

I hope the UK votes for brexit and more countries will follow. This pile of rubbish called the EU has to collapse sooner or later, sooner it happens less suffering it means to ordinary Europeans.

scbriml · Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:45 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):

Why don't you just leave? You clearly hate Europe.

pvjin · Sat Feb 20, 2016 10:52 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
Why don't you just leave? You clearly hate Europe.

Money mainly, I'm not particularly rich. Otherwise I would have already bought a nice villa from some Pacific island and moved there permanently.

777Jet · Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:26 pm

I'd like to see the 'leave the EU' vote get up because I believe that would have better outcomes for the UK.

It's about time that nations started looking after themselves and their own interests before the interests of whatever failing union they belong to that is also dragging them backwards.

Just the threat from Alexis Tsipras to not agree to the final conclusions, given the help Greece needs to deal with the refugee problem as well as their own failed economy, just shows how naive and arrogant some EU countries are.

No wonder why Tsipras backed down - he needs that bailout money!

Quoting OA260 (Reply 11):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Plus all the British expat retirees in their enclaves in Spain and portugal.

Who actually prop up the Spanish and Portuguese economies as they get UK pensions and have quite a bit of income to spend locally. So I doubt Spain and Portugal would want to see them all go home

I'm sure the UK would happily welcome back the extra income retirees would provide the local economy if other countries don't want it

Quoting Tugger (Reply 15):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
I know that in many of these places the locals are pretty much fed up with those colonies of expats (I include Germans and Dutch as well), who stick to their own, refuse to learn the local language and keep on bitching about the locals.

Isn't this what expats and immigrants in most all countries do?

Exactly.

Gingersnap · Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:36 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
Why don't you just leave? You clearly hate Europe.

I also hate Europe. Hate what it has become because this isn't what was agreed to originally.

I know a number of the continent want to turn the EU into the United States of Europe and erase all sense of identity but that isn't something I personally want to see.
The EU has been a catalyst for the likes of Germany to do very well out of other European states and the system as a whole. The sooner it collapses the better.

Call be isolationist, but I don't wish to contribute to a institution that is effectively the highest level of government (the leaders whom I didn't get to vote for), that is used by certain member states to further their own economic outlook. The migrant crisis of nearly a million refugees arriving at the border in Germany is just rewards for their misguided attitudes.

MD11Engineer · Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:37 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):

Money mainly, I'm not particularly rich. Otherwise I would have already bought a nice villa from some Pacific island and moved there permanently.

Oh, be an immigrant? Do you think they want you there?

Jan

pvjin · Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:42 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Oh, be an immigrant? Do you think they want you there?

Sure if I brought in enough cash which would be good for the local economy. Similarly I don't have anything against emigration that benefits Finland economically. Those who come here to work and actually have realistic chances and motivation to find work & don't plan to commit crimes are free to live in Finland as far as I care.

Rara · Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:03 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
A Polish woman I work with has four kids living in Poland, she gets 970 NOK per child, per month, this is completely wrong, it should not be allowed, that money going to her is coming out of the pockets of Norwegian taxpayers, it's not benefiting anyone in Norway, or the Norwegian economy.

That's absolutely shocking and disgusting. Norway should leave the EU ASAP.

scbriml · Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:06 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):
Money mainly, I'm not particularly rich. Otherwise I would have already bought a nice villa from some Pacific island and moved there permanently.

So you'd be happy to let Europe make you rich before you leave? Let me know where I can make a donation.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
I'd like to see the 'leave the EU' vote get up because I believe that would have better outcomes for the UK.

I'm really struggling to see how the UK would be better off outside the EU. An out vote will most likely lead to a successful Scottish independence referendum as they seem to be very pro-EU and if 'England' votes out, they'll do a runner. Here's another Scottish irony - the massive SNP vote in the last election ensured the one thing many Scots didn't want - a Tory Government. Now, a significant in vote in Scotland will likely keep the UK in the EU and ensure Cameron runs his full term. IMHO, an out vote would see him resign as PM.

Frankly, when I look at the politicians lining up to support an out vote, it convinces me we're better off in.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Oh, be an immigrant?

Kind of ironic, eh?

777Jet · Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:17 am

Quoting Gingersnap (Reply 30):
Quoting scbriml (Reply 27):
Why don't you just leave? You clearly hate Europe.

I also hate Europe. Hate what it has become because this isn't what was agreed to originally.

"Hate what it has become" - well said.

To the benefit of some, and at a cost -(both socially and economically)- to others...

Quoting Gingersnap (Reply 30):
The EU has been a catalyst for the likes of Germany to do very well out of other European states and the system as a whole. The sooner it collapses the better.

Interesting.

Quoting Gingersnap (Reply 30):
The migrant crisis of nearly a million refugees arriving at the border in Germany is just rewards for their misguided attitudes.

Now they have to take their medicine

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 28):

Money mainly, I'm not particularly rich. Otherwise I would have already bought a nice villa from some Pacific island and moved there permanently.

Oh, be an immigrant? Do you think they want you there?

All countries would want immigrants that have money to spend -(or work to earn money to spend)- and therefore contribute to the economy in a positive way. It is the economic immigrants who require financial support for themselves and for their massive families that are parasites on the economy that countries, rightfully, don't want.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 32):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):
Oh, be an immigrant? Do you think they want you there?

Sure if I brought in enough cash which would be good for the local economy. Similarly I don't have anything against emigration that benefits Finland economically. Those who come here to work and actually have realistic chances and motivation to find work & don't plan to commit crimes are free to live in Finland as far as I care.

Exactly.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):
An out vote will most likely lead to a successful Scottish independence referendum as they seem to be very pro-EU and if 'England' votes out, they'll do a runner. Here's another Scottish irony - the massive SNP vote in the last election ensured the one thing many Scots didn't want - a Tory Government. Now, a significant in vote in Scotland will likely keep the UK in the EU and ensure Cameron runs his full term. IMHO, an out vote would see him resign as PM.

It will be interesting to see what plays out if the 'leave the EU' vote gets up - that's for sure.

Aesma · Sun Feb 21, 2016 1:30 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 29):
Just the threat from Alexis Tsipras to not agree to the final conclusions, given the help Greece needs to deal with the refugee problem as well as their own failed economy, just shows how naive and arrogant some EU countries are.

So Cameron can be all about him and his country, but Tsipras shouldn't ? Cameron was arrogance personified, only Trump can come close, and I can tell you that millions of Europeans will cheer if the UK leaves, just because of this ridiculous show we've witnessed.

Besides, tackling the Greek problem with immigration is beneficial to all, and for some countries (including the UK, the first or second magnet with Germany), much more so than for Greece, where not a single immigrant wants to stay.

777Jet · Sun Feb 21, 2016 5:18 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 36):
So Cameron can be all about him and his country, but Tsipras shouldn't ?

One of them is biting the hand that feeds. The other is not.

bennett123 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 7:26 am

Iirc, the SNP want to have independence but keep Sterling.

If we leave but they stay in, would they have to join the Euro then.

SCQ83 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:34 am

I am very happy if the UK leaves the EU.

Living in Continental Europe, this would be ultimately beneficial for places like Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Luxembourg or Frankfurt that will welcome companies and jobs that would have otherwise been created in London. Corporations do not like political uncertainty, and not knowing whether in 5 years time they will be able to employ someone because of this passport. Potential employees do not like it either. For whoever says this will not happen; this is already happening in Switzerland (companies expanding - many of which are Swiss! - in other European countries rather than its own because of all the job permit issues now - among other points -) and in Spain (plenty of international companies moving from Barcelona to Madrid due to the political uncertainty in Catalonia).

The UK - where London provides a lot of services to the rest of Europe - needs the EU more than the other way around.

tommy1808 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 8:36 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 20):
Not if it was going to hurt them too.

They'd lose the retires and get lots of skilled, experienced workers and all their know how back.
That may have more value to the local economy than pension euros being spend in grocery stores and restaurants.

The EU should have played hardball when Ms. Thatcher wanted her money back.

Best regards
Thomas

scbriml · Sun Feb 21, 2016 9:59 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 38):
Iirc, the SNP want to have independence but keep Sterling.

If we leave but they stay in, would they have to join the Euro then.

This was, of course, the one topic the SNP would try and avoid during the independence vote. They want independence to be free of the tyrannical English, but they want to be in the EU, they want to keep Sterling and they want to keep the Queen. It's buffet independence.

Salmond and Queen Nicola couldn't answer questions about EU membership or currency. Just sweep it under the carpet, it will all be OK because we've got haggis and Irn Bru.

Anyway, I hope the Scots vote overwhelmingly to stay in the EU.

pvjin · Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:21 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 34):
So you'd be happy to let Europe make you rich before you leave? Let me know where I can make a donation.

Yep. If you want to discuss this donation thing further please PM me, I'm sure we can make a reasonable deal that will keep me quiet on a.net about all things related to the EU, or about everything if you pay me enough.

vc10 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:24 am

The problem with the EU from the British point of view lies with the following:-

1] The decisions of the Court of Human Rights is some times blamed on the EU . However even if we left the EU this court would still apply to the UK as it has nothing to do with the EU, but it would seem a lot of people do not understand this

2] Most of the Eastern Bloc countries are in the EU for the financial gain they can get from it, and i do not blame them . However once they are asked to start to contribute [net] to the EU they will probably want special conditions to apply to them or even to leave. After all they did not get their freedom from the Soviet Bloc only to have it taken from them by the European Bloc

3] Internal immigration within the EU has to be addressed as here in the UK we have between 2 and 3 million EU immigrants . It all depends on which figure you wish to believe, but it is agreed by all that there are 750,000 thousand immigrants from Poland. Now who can complain about immigrants as they sometimes bring great benefits to their new country, but when so many arrive in so short a time it is impossible to assimilate them . This is the biggest problem I believe the UK population has with the EU, but the EU refuses to address it

4] The strain so many immigrants put on the services of their new countries such as health care and schools is totally ignored by the EU. Now people will tell you that that is their right as they pay their taxes, but that is not always the case as many who work in establishments get the pay where they do not pay any tax and make it up by having their lodgings and food free. Now i have to say I do not know if they pay their National Insurance,. perhaps someone can enlighten me on that matter.

5] Now I think there is a lot of good within the EU, however there is also too much attention given to each countries individual political needs rather than the needs of the population as a whole., and so for that reason I believe the UK should vote to leave , which will shake the UK up somewhat , but I believe it will survive and get better. The problem is that for anybody aged under 45 our membership of the EU is all they have ever known and they will probably vote to stay in the EU , which will win the day .

littlevc10

tommy1808 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:31 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 43):
but that is not always the case as many who work in establishments get the pay where they do not pay any tax and make it up by having their lodgings and food free.

Well, the UK government could just adjust minimum wage to address that issue, or might it be that they rather like the supply of cheap labour their economy is getting from it?

Best regards
Thomas

zkojq · Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:36 am

Good riddance if No wins. Most people in the UK never wanted to be part of the UK anyway. If the UK leaves they will have similar status to Norway and, like Norway, will continue to contribute to the EU budget and follow most of EU regulation despite not being a member and thus having much less say in the EU. I wonder who all the Euroskeptics will blame for Britain's problems then.

Britain needs the EU more than the EU needs Britain due to the single market, so it will be entertaining to see how this works out.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 2):
The ability for the UK to enact "an emergency safeguard" to protect the City of London

Great to see David Cameron working hard for the Offshore System that he pretends to hate.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 4):
The rag-tag collection of racist loonies urging withdrawal from the EU should also be enough to frighten people into voting to stay in.

One would think so.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Plus all the British expat retirees in their enclaves in Spain and portugal.

Haha.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
Btw., the winner will be Putin.

Indeed. Expect him to dump a ton of money into the coffers of the Leave campaign. An increasingly divided Europe is exactly what Putin wants. Together we stand against him, divided we fall and all that.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 19):
Yes, that is the best and I think smartest way to be when in another nation. Integrate, learn the language and customs, and become more a local that a foreigner or tourist.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):
I hope the UK votes for brexit and more countries will follow. This pile of rubbish called the EU has to collapse sooner or later, sooner it happens less suffering it means to ordinary Europeans.

Good luck facing Putin on your own!!!

Quoting Rara (Reply 33):
That's absolutely shocking and disgusting. Norway should leave the EU ASAP.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 39):
The UK - where London provides a lot of services to the rest of Europe - needs the EU more than the other way around.

MD11Engineer · Sun Feb 21, 2016 10:45 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 43):
4] The strain so many immigrants put on the services of their new countries such as health care and schools is totally ignored by the EU. Now people will tell you that that is their right as they pay their taxes, but that is not always the case as many who work in establishments get the pay where they do not pay any tax and make it up by having their lodgings and food free. Now i have to say I do not know if they pay their National Insurance,. perhaps someone can enlighten me on that matter.

I think that a big part of it is very UK specific. E.g. most European countries have contribution based social security and pension systems: E.g. to draw unemployment benefits (IIRC 60% of your last net salary) in Germany you must have paid into the system for at least one year. For a full pension you need to have paid into the system for 40 years.
We will not let anybody starve, but the social welfare money (Hartz 4) is a lot less and will allow you only a very basic lifestyle, plus it is means tested (e.g. by inspectors of the welfare department). Also a foreigner, including EU citizens, will not have access to this for the first 6 months and is expected to have enough money to support himself here during this time, including for medical care. EU immigrants who do not go looking seriously for work and just want to live of welfare can and will be deported. This has been cleared by the European Court of Justice.

Child benefits will only be paid for children residing in Germany, not abroad. Ireland had, IIRC, a similar policy when I was living there. I could not get tax credits or child benefits for my daugther, who was living in Germany with her mother back then.

The thing is that the EU rules require a country to treat an EU immigrant equal to it's own citizens. In the UK health care, pensions and social security are tax financed and any british citizen has the right to get them right away, so per EU rules they will also have to be provided to EU immigrants on the same base. And if the UK pays child benefits to British citizens with children abroad, this will also apply to EU immigrants.

Jan

vc10 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:05 am

MD!!,

Thanks for the information , which was very enlightening. The only problem is that our system in many ways is more generous to it's citizens than perhaps yours, but we seem to have to give it to any body from the rest of Europe just to appease the EU political masters in the EU. It is this sort of thing that upsets people here in the UK, but perhaps you would say that is the price of belonging to the club, but every club considers it rules and changes them now and then.

Anyway thanks for the info

littlevc10

OA260 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:49 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 40):

The only reason they didnt is because whatever people thought of her she had more balls than any Male UK politician today

vc10 · Sun Feb 21, 2016 11:54 am

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 45):
Most people in the UK never wanted to be part of the UK anyway

I think you meant EU perhaps

and assuming that to be the case you are correct as what the UK wanted to join was the original Common Market rather than the ever approaching Federal State of Europe.

For some of us old enough to remember [shame] the same scare stories were used when we originally joined the Common Market. How would we survive without our cheap lamb , butter,and cheese from New Zealand and Australia, but we changed and survived and i am sure we would do so again

MD11

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
EU immigrants who do not go looking seriously for work and just want to live of welfare can and will be deported. This has been cleared by the European Court of Justice.

What do you do if when they get to their home country , they just get on a bus and return to Germany. Keep sending them home.

littlevc10

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