Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Redd
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:21 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
Good.

Big deal if you have to show your passport when crossing a border...

Having borders in Europe is bad, bad for trade, bad for tourism, bad for the raised taxes to pay for the borders. If you've ever traveled or done business within the EU you can't consider borders a good thing.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 50):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 3):
Good.

Big deal if you have to show your passport when crossing a border...

Having borders in Europe is bad, bad for trade, bad for tourism, bad for the raised taxes to pay for the borders. If you've ever traveled or done business within the EU you can't consider borders a good thing.

The usual attitude is: Free travel and right to work anywhere for one's own ethnic group / nationality / race, but the same rights banned for everybody else. This, BTW., also includes your country's new government (though I know that you as a person are very critical about it).

Jan
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 3:54 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 49):

MD11Engineer, I think both political sides are equally guilty of accusing the other side of things and ideas that may or may not be true and that will often be exaggerated. I could also say that people like aloges chooses to ignore real problems by pulling the racist card. If he and others want to have a debate at that level, then I'm afraid that the discussion will be useless.

A rational idea to you can be irrational to others and vice versa.

Quoting Redd (Reply 50):

I agree. In a better world, it would be great if there wasn't border control anywhere, but unfortunately it's necessary in the world we live in, unless we don't care about the European welfare state for future generations and we don't care about crime rates.

[Edited 2016-02-27 07:56:50]
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:02 pm

And the sad thing is that with the current amount of immigration to Europe, it will be hard for Jews to live safely in especially Sweden and Germany in the future, since a lot of the immigrants coming to Europe simply don't tolerate Jews.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 6:59 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 52):
I could also say that people like aloges chooses to ignore real problems by pulling the racist card.

The issue is that the whole thing mostly gets connected to visual differences. My grandfather told me that in the 1920s the issue was Haredi Jews, who came over from Eastern Poland, and visibly stood out in then German society and spoke Yiddish (unlike the assimilated Jews, who's families have been living here for centuries). They came to Berlin after WW1, dirt poor and started businesses like walking through the streets with a hand cart, collecting rags or scrap metal. As the stuck together and saved their money, often the next generation had a small shop. The stereotype of the Eastern European Jew was used by the Nazis against all Jews.

The same people who are against ALL immigrants are also disputing that the football player Boateng is a real German, despite his passport, just based on the colour of his skin ("Ein Neger kann kein Deutscher sein").

The Chinese mother of a very close friend had to endure stares, stupid remarks and being touched after she moved to Southern Germany with her German husband back in the mid-1960s. She is a scholar with a PhD and met her husband while both of them worked for an American university in Chicago.

I have been verbally attacked by an old woman when I walked through the streets of Berlin with my West African then-wife and her children for being a racial traitor.

Many of the horror stories about immigrants have been deliberately launched by ultra righwing groups (better call them Nazis, this is what they are. These groups really believe in the purity of the German race and wantto go back to the Führer state, run by a dictator.

I have mentioned before that not all refugees are nice people (but many are ok) and that quite a few scumbags are riding on the coat tails of the real refugees and that the government should have handled the whole thing in a more robust way. but now these rightwing groups want to get to power on the coat tails of the refugee mess.

We'll have state elections here in about three week's time. There are at least four ultra rightwing parties (I include the AfD now as well, as the finacially conservative and anti-Euro economist founders have been forced out and replaced by people who are preaching the uniqueness of the "Nordic race") running for parliament. You cannot tell me thatthe "Dritte Weg" party is seriously supporting Christian values, as their doctrine includes Germanic paganism, as preached by Himmler. Fortunately the leader of each party thinks that he should be the new Führer and there doesn't exist a charismatic leader. The last one who could possibly unify these groups, was Kühnen, but he died of AIDS back in the 1990s, and while he was following the ideology of the "revolutionary" wing of the NSDAP under Röhm, like Röhm he was also gay and got attacked by other Nazis for this.

And you can't tell me that the majority of PEGIDA supporters is Christian, even though they claim to defend Christian heritage against the Muslims. Due to almost 50 years of Communist rule in the former GDR most people there are atheists.
Jan
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 54):
The same people who are against ALL immigrants

But I think maybe this is where we misunderstand each other. I'm not against immigration, I'm just against immigration in the vast scale that we're seeing now.
 
LSZH34
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:33 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 52):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 53):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 54):

I agree wholeheartedly.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
It's disgusting how racists try to disguise their racism with codes such as "insurmountable cultural differences". Even more disgusting that, when they're called out for it, they go "I wasn't talking about race, so you're the racist for bringing it up!" I suppose it hurts when the code is decoded by the wrong people.

Or maybe they really just don't give a damn about skin colour? This "everybody who disagrees with me is a racist" thing is just a delusion in your head, nothing more.

Anyone with a brain should be able to see that a massive uncontrolled wave of immigration from extremely poor and backward societies to modern European societies is going to create conflict, especially when people like you think any kind of adaptation and cultural integration on immigrant's part is a bad thing. The kind of multiculturalism you support is practically just apartheid, real multiculturalism requires integration and adaptation.

In the future Europe will see only more ethnic segregation, crime and terrorism thanks to policymakers with such delusional thoughts.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:14 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 43):
Maybe I'm idealistic or naive but I don't see how integration has to be so difficult. For both sides.

Because when you have a mass influx from countries that are very different than yours in every respect of the word different - be it language, culture, upbringing, values, work ethic... It's often impossible to integrate everyone. This is further made harder by the fact that many of these immigrants are unwilling to learn. When I come to CPH, I'm dumbfounded by the amount of migrants living in their various corners of the city, still unable (and unmotivated) to learn the local speak and prove themselves in the workforce. In turn, they stick to their own circles and hardly venture out.

Quote:
A decade’s worth of efforts to integrate refugees into the Danish labour market have failed, a new analysis from the Confederation of Danish Employers (Dansk Arbejdsgiverforening - DA) shows.

Berlingske newspaper crunched the numbers from a DA investigation and found that just one out of every four refugees who came to Denmark between 2000-2003 was employed ten years later.

Frightening.

http://www.thelocal.dk/20150309/denm...ee-integration-efforts-have-failed
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sun Feb 28, 2016 8:53 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 58):
Because when you have a mass influx from countries that are very different than yours in every respect of the word different - be it language, culture, upbringing, values, work ethic... It's often impossible to integrate everyone. This is further made harder by the fact that many of these immigrants are unwilling to learn. When I come to CPH, I'm dumbfounded by the amount of migrants living in their various corners of the city, still unable (and unmotivated) to learn the local speak and prove themselves in the workforce. In turn, they stick to their own circles and hardly venture out.

True. And it's especially bad if you go to Nørrebro where more than 25%(!) of the population is immigrant. It's not a nice place to live in anymore. Crime rates and violence is high. Imagine then what it's now like in Sweden.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sun Feb 28, 2016 10:16 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 55):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 54):
The same people who are against ALL immigrants

But I think maybe this is where we misunderstand each other. I'm not against immigration, I'm just against immigration in the vast scale that we're seeing now.

I'm against UNCONTROLLED immigrantion. Due to my West African ex-wife, I have met a lot of refugees personally. While my ex had some character traits, including ripping off the social security system, which caused me to eventually file a divorce, I also met a lot of very nice people among them. E.g. a Romanian Roma family (actually a mother with her two daughters), who became friends. I also met arseholes and cheats, and I also faced racism from the other side, e.g. when attending a meeting of the African community with my Ex, some African youngsters complained about the presence of a "cracker". But they were put to order very fast by the African elders.

We need to filter whom we let in, but not necessarily based on country of origin. For me the test is obeying the spirt of our laws, especially the constitution. With this I don't mean getting caught speeding or illegally parking a car, but to understand that the country is secular, that discrmination based on rrace, origin, relgion, gender or sexual orientation is illegal.

Jan
 
Redd
Posts: 1363
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sun Feb 28, 2016 2:13 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
This, BTW., also includes your country's new government

Yes it does.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
(though I know that you as a person are very critical about it).

Thanks for noticing   Too many people are putting all Polish residents in the same group as PiS supporters when in reality it was less than 18% of the population that had voted for those psychopaths.
.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 52):
I agree. In a better world, it would be great if there wasn't border control anywhere, but unfortunately it's necessary in the world we live in, unless we don't care about the European welfare state for future generations and we don't care about crime rates.

I still don't see the need to re-open border control. I think we need to turn back 100% of the people that are coming illegally into Europe that aren't running from war. So anyone that is not from Syria pretty much.

I don't want to be waiting 12 hours at any border....
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sun Feb 28, 2016 3:15 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 59):
And it's especially bad if you go to Nørrebro

Preach! I used to live in Nørrebro in the early 90's as a kid. The place is unrecognizable now.
 
User avatar
Dano1977
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Sun Feb 28, 2016 9:10 pm

Which EU country leader said this in 2010...

multiculturalism in ---------- had "utterly failed"

"Of course the tendency had been to say, 'Let's adopt the multicultural concept and live happily side by side, and be happy to be living with each other.' But this concept has failed, and failed utterly,"

It was quite widely reported in a number of news papers and broadcasters.

Answers on a postcard please.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:18 pm

Here is some footage of the peaceful future citizens of the EU:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35687257
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:31 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 64):

Somehow these scenes always remind me from zombie movies, like 28 days later. Just mute the video & put 28 days later soundtrack to play on the background and you've got this nice doomsday atmosphere.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:15 pm

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 44):
The migrant's attitude of "give me" needs to stop.

There is no sense in blaming human nature itself.

If you want a different outcome, create a different policy!
 
LSZH34
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:33 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 64):
Here is some footage of the peaceful future citizens of the EU:

Why are they so angry? Greece is safe and in a few months people will make holidays there. What a weird world we live in...
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:23 pm

http://yle.fi/uutiset/yle_selvitti_y...erattomia_tapauksia_useita/8707863

According to our state news agency YLE since last fall in about 7-8% of all sexual crimes in investigation were committed by refugees. For the record in 2015 Finland received 32 478 asylum seekers, which in comparison equals about 0.6% of our entire population. Then you can also of course add several percents on top of that as sexual crimes committed by people who or whose parents arrived here earlier as asylum seekers.

"Vertailun tueksi: samaan aikaan kaikkien ulkomaalaisten osuus seksuaalirikoksista on ollut 24 prosenttia."

This is pretty interesting too, apparently in 24% of all sexual crimes under investigation the offender has been a foreigner.

Interesting times ahead.

[Edited 2016-02-29 14:26:02]
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:28 pm

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 67):
Greece is safe and in a few months people will make holidays there. What a weird world we live in...

Because they would prefer to act like animals, break through borders, demand asylum in a country in which they find the best benefits after some careful window shopping. The mere fact that they aren't satisfied with a safe country, is already an indicator that the majority is not even remotely fleeing from war.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:16 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
Forgive me for addressing you personally rather than your argument, but I can't help noticing that in these threads, you keep on commenting very knowledgeably about German politics, culture, debates and so on. May I ask where you get your knowledge from? I'm asking because it always sounds very confident, and it's usually totally off the mark. Don't read that as an accusation. I know very little about Denmark. It's just that if we had lots of threads about the goings-on in Denmark here, I wouldn't be quite so prolific in commenting on them.


Ha, that's rich coming from one of many Europeans and others who are quite prolific and constantly critical in the US-centric threads. Noticeably absent from this thread and every other Euro-centric thread is continual criticism of Euro policies by North Americans. Except for the Canadians, which says a lot as well....


Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 59):

True. And it's especially bad if you go to Nørrebro where more than 25%(!) of the population is immigrant. It's not a nice place to live in anymore. Crime rates and violence is high. Imagine then what it's now like in Sweden.

This would not be unusual in parts of the US, I've lived in more than one myself, my current school district is about 50% foreign-born. The differences are very, very apparent depending on from where the immigrants come. There is an astounding difference between Mexican and Asian neighborhoods, for example. Yes, by today's definitions of 'racism' I am a racist, like everybody else in the world. Certain groups are simply more attractive to receive than others.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
The mere fact that they aren't satisfied with a safe country, is already an indicator that the majority is not even remotely fleeing from war.

Very good point.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:23 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):
Ha, that's rich coming from one of many Europeans and others who are quite prolific and constantly critical in the US-centric threads.

I said I knew very little about Denmark. I didn't say the same about America. America is a large and important country which I read and hear a lot about, thus I feel somewhat qualified to comment on it.

Besides, I wouldn't generally say that most of what we read about Germany by non-Germans in this forum is wrong. In recent months it has become sort of dominated by one topic (refugees), but that's understandable given the media's attention. But back when we discussed the Greek debt crisis and Germany's role in it, a lot of the input on this forum was as much critical as it was knowledgeable and insightful.

Nonetheless, when I said that this fellow member's comments on German domestic politics were "off the mark", I didn't mean that I necessarily disagreed with them, I just literally meant they seemed off the mark.

To illustrate this with an example, if you read the following comment on this forum: "Environmental policy in the US will always remain toothless because Congress is far too dominated by corporate interests and lobbyists", you might think "well that's not really my opinion, but I can see where that guy is coming from.". But if you read, say, "For a president that is essentially very conservative, Obama sure has enjoyed a great deal of support from all political sides during his term. Even though criticizing Obama is basically taboo, his weak ties to the military mean that he may have to resign before the election" - you'd probably say "hmm, yeah, that's... not exactly spot on. That guy sure sounds knowledgeable, I just wonder where he gets these ideas from". If you read something like that several times from the same person, you'd probably ask eventually.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):
Yes, by today's definitions of 'racism' I am a racist, like everybody else in the world. Certain groups are simply more attractive to receive than others.

Preferring college-educated Koreans to Mexican farmers as neighbors doesn't make you racist; it makes you classist if anything.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 71):
Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
The mere fact that they aren't satisfied with a safe country, is already an indicator that the majority is not even remotely fleeing from war.

Very good point.

It's not. It's basically a non-sequitur. It sounds good, but since none of us have ever fled from a war, we don't know how we'd feel if we did.

The only refugees I personally know are those who were driven out of former German territories in today's Poland, the Czech Republic and so on. I never heard them utter a word of thanks for being sheltered; the two sentiments I know from them are bitterness and resignation.
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:53 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 72):

It's not. It's basically a non-sequitur. It sounds good, but since none of us have ever fled from a war, we don't know how we'd feel if we did.

Again a generalisation as how many of these people have fled from a war, perhaps not very many, so we are all short of facts and probably the authorities them selves have not all the facts. That is why they should be processed nearer the war zone.and numbers can be really assessed.

I feel desperately sorry for Greece who after all is a member of the EU , but seems to get no help from the other EU members, where are the warships of all the other EU nations to patrol the seas and turn them back and patrol the land borders with EU troops . Surely that is meant to be one of the strengths of the EU that we are safer together than as individual nations , but do not ask Greece that question. Now you might ask why do NATO do something , but Turkey is a member of NATO so it is very difficult for NATO.

Now it is very laudable to be understanding towards people fleeing from a war zone but you have to ask yourself the following questions

How many are fleeing a war zone

A genuine refugee would like to return home once it is safe ,so how many of the million or so will go home . NOt that many I would suggest

How many can Europe take . There has to be a limit
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 9:16 am

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 69):
Because they would prefer to act like animals, break through borders, demand asylum in a country in which they find the best benefits after some careful window shopping. The mere fact that they aren't satisfied with a safe country, is already an indicator that the majority is not even remotely fleeing from war.

   Common sense.

A documentary is just being aired in three parts here in Denmark where an undercover person with a hidden camera has been attending meetings and prayers in several mosques here, where it's evident that the imams not only support stoning, support having multiple wives, and they tell the women that they can't work with male colleagues at all. They preach all this at friday prayers.

And apparently the immigrant women from many muslim countries follow the imam's advice as 8 out of 10 of them coming here are receiving benefits.

It's a not really a surprise that this is going on, but the imams have often said one thing to journalists and media and when they think they are not being film or watched, they say something completely different. Ergo you can not trust them.

Those mosques where this takes place should be torn down.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 70):
Yes, by today's definitions of 'racism' I am a racist, like everybody else in the world. Certain groups are simply more attractive to receive than others.

True. Far East Asian immigrants do very well. I would not mind getting more of them and less of others.

[Edited 2016-03-02 01:52:23]
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:11 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 72):
Again a generalisation as how many of these people have fled from a war, perhaps not very many, so we are all short of facts and probably the authorities them selves have not all the facts. That is why they should be processed nearer the war zone.and numbers can be really assessed.

Perhaps only 5% are actually fleeing from a war zone. Still, you can't say "they are dissatisfied with the status quo, therefore they aren't fleeing from a war". It doesn't compute.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 72):
A genuine refugee would like to return home once it is safe

Again - how do you know that? How do you know how a "genuine refugee" feels and thinks?
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:22 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 74):
Perhaps only 5% are actually fleeing from a war zone. Still, you can't say "they are dissatisfied with the status quo, therefore they aren't fleeing from a war". It doesn't compute.

I am sorry I do not quite understand the above , perhaps yu can clarify

Quoting Rara (Reply 74):
Again - how do you know that? How do you know how a "genuine refugee" feels and thinks?

Once you have given sanctuary to a refuge you do not expect them to stay there for ever, If they do not wish to return then they become economic migrants and the host country has no obligation to accept them
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 1:52 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 75):
Once you have given sanctuary to a refuge you do not expect them to stay there for ever, If they do not wish to return then they become economic migrants and the host country has no obligation to accept them

I agree. But that's written from the standpoint of the host country. It doesn't mean that a refugee can't flee from war and terror and at the same time wish to remain in his country of refuge.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 75):

Quoting Rara (Reply 74):
Perhaps only 5% are actually fleeing from a war zone. Still, you can't say "they are dissatisfied with the status quo, therefore they aren't fleeing from a war". It doesn't compute.

I am sorry I do not quite understand the above , perhaps yu can clarify

Sure. Aeroflot777 wrote "The mere fact that they aren't satisfied with a safe country, is already an indicator that the majority is not even remotely fleeing from war." I say that's a statement like "it's going to rain later, which is already an indicator that tomorrow is Thursday". Both statements are perhaps true, but they aren't causally connected.
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:17 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 76):
I agree. But that's written from the standpoint of the host country. It doesn't mean that a refugee can't flee from war and terror and at the same time wish to remain in his country of refuge.

Well, a friend of mine - or rather 2 of them since they are a couple, defected from Czechoslovakia too late for their refugee status applications in Canada to be processed before the commie government of Czechoslovakia fell. As a result they were deported from Canada after several years here. She was forced by the Canadian authorities to fly across the Atlantic over 7 months pregnant. They later returned as landed immigrants. So yes, there are cases when refugees are forced to leave when the situation in the home country improves.
That said, I agree with you. Asking the refugees who are already settled in their new home country to leave and start over again would be just unfair. They were trough enough trouble for one lifetime.
 
LSZH34
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:33 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 2:21 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 76):
Sure. Aeroflot777 wrote "The mere fact that they aren't satisfied with a safe country, is already an indicator that the majority is not even remotely fleeing from war." I say that's a statement like "it's going to rain later, which is already an indicator that tomorrow is Thursday". Both statements are perhaps true, but they aren't causally connected.

Huh? I don't get your logic. Why don't you ask all the migrants that are holding up "Germany help?" banners in the air, why they want to go explicitly to Germany? I bet they couldn't give you a straight and honest answer, instead they throw some words in the air like "human right, good, very nice country". This shows to me that they are unsatisified with their current host country, and thus, are not remotely fleeing from war as Aeroflot777 said. They are trying to create compassion on a low level to get what they want. I'm not buying it and Germany would be stupid to do so. A "very nice country" does not mean you are automatically allowed to get asylum there.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:01 pm

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 73):
Those mosques where this takes place should be torn down.

Their own kids will reject that philosophy. The wider community can just respect their freedom of speech, and enforce the law whenever it becomes necessary.

Turning it into a religious conflict is exactly what the religious extremists want, and takes you down to their level. Their kids will know better.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 6324
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:29 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 79):
Their own kids will reject that philosophy.

Evidence suggests othervise.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 79):
Their kids will know better.

I guess that's why 2nd and 3rd generation muslim immigrants are more zealous and extremist than their parents have ever been.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 80):
I guess that's why 2nd and 3rd generation muslim immigrants are more zealous and extremist than their parents have ever been.

..for which I'm sure you can provide a source.

Quoting LSZH34 (Reply 78):
Huh? I don't get your logic. Why don't you ask all the migrants that are holding up "Germany help?" banners in the air, why they want to go explicitly to Germany? I bet they couldn't give you a straight and honest answer, instead they throw some words in the air like "human right, good, very nice country". This shows to me that they are unsatisified with their current host country, and thus, are not remotely fleeing from war as Aeroflot777 said.

No - see, that's the thing. It doesn't show anything. The fact that a refugee would rather stay in Denmark than in Greece doesn't show anything in itself. If they had to choose between staying in Greece and dying in Syria, I'm sure they'd rather stay in Greece. If they had to choose between staying in Greece and staying in Germany, they'd rather stay in Germany.

I think it's fair not to give them that choice. I think it's reasonable to say "we provide you with safe shelter, and in turn you won't be able to choose where". But the mere fact that a refugee prefers Denmark to Macedonia doesn't say anything about their motivation, their background, and whether or not they were really threatened in their home country.

[Edited 2016-03-02 08:53:13]
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:57 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 81):
No - see, that's the thing. It doesn't show anything. The fact that a refugee would rather stay in Denmark than in Greece doesn't show anything in itself. If they had to choose between staying in Greece and dying in Syria, I'm sure they'd rather stay in Greece. If they had to choose between staying in Greece and staying in Germany, they'd rather stay in Germany.

I think it's fair not to give them that choice. I think it's reasonable to say "we provide you with safe shelter, and in turn you won't be able to choose where". But the mere fact that a refugee prefers Denmark to Macedonia doesn't say anything about their motivation, their background, and whether or not they were really threatened in their home country.

Kinda agree there. In their shoes it's perfectly logical to choose whoever gives them the best deal in benefits.
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3239
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:17 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 81):
..for which I'm sure you can provide a source.

Perhaps you could look at age and background of the last Paris attack perps. And if you would use Google instead of asking others to do it for you, you'd get answers from reliable sources too.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:05 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 76):
It doesn't mean that a refugee can't flee from war and terror and at the same time wish to remain in his country of refuge.

Right, but the country of refuge is the first safe country they are in. Once they are safe, they make the conscious decision to continue their trek to a country they *enjoy* more. Why they would potentially enjoy it, the majority probably doesn't even know themselves. They heard that Sweden, Germany and Norway is great, so they persist.

This conscious decision to shlep forward is not legal, and therefore not something they are entitled to. Yet, through behavior that is well-documented by amateur videographers on the scenes as well as media worldwide, it can be seen, that these barbarians (I use that word consciously, because there are plenty of peaceful and loving refugees who quietly sit out and wait their turn in camps without showing disrespect and violence) think it's their given right to demand entry. Macedonia isn't even part of the EU, what gives them the right to use force, throw rocks at Macedonian police, and break border gates by ramming poles? Then when faced with opposition, they write signs saying "Merkel help us!". They know the weak link and they abuse it, Germany is the weakest link and succumbs to these folks.

If I landed in Greece as a refugee and had heard that Merkel was awesome and gave legal right to remain status to people from Syria, I would want to go to Germany too. After all, why not? I've made it this far, right? But that doesn't mean someone should be waiting there with open arms to accept me. More importantly, common sense would indicate that there is a limit to this migration. But in reality, Germany doesn't see or function using this common sense.

I'm glad Austria has been showing a harder stance on the issue, if Germany wants these people then they need to figure out how to get them over there without bothering nations along the way. Charter some LH 380s to fly between Athens and Berlin all day long if need be, just don't force your damn policies on others.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3214
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:18 pm

Quote:
Germany "should set up a daily quota and then bring these refugees directly from Greece, Turkey or Jordan," Austrian Chancellor Werner Faymann told the Kurier newspaper on Wednesday.

"Austria cannot and must not become a distribution hub [for refugees]. There must be an end to that," Faymann went on.

He could not accept "that several thousands of people are waved through every day, on the other hand Germany informs us that today it will only allow 1,000 or 2,000 into the country."

So let me get this straight, Merkel blasts Austria for putting a limit on the amount of refugees that can enter the country each day (3,200). Saying "it won't solve anything". Then proceeds to limit the amount of said refugees that can travel onward from Austria into her own country to 1,000-2,000 daily. Meaning everyday there will be a severe backlog growing in Austria like it did at the end of last year. These very people she invited, will now be trapped on Austria's territory and unable to proceed.

We already took in more people per capita than Germany, so she has no room to talk and dictate national policies of other nations.

This woman has completely lost it - both her mind and control over the situation.

http://www.thelocal.at/20160302/brin...eece-yourself-austria-tells-merkel
 
LSZH34
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:33 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:25 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 85):
This woman has completely lost it - both her mind and control over the situation.

I completely agree. She's greedy for power. She's desperately trying to go down in history as the chancellor that managed and solved the refugee crisis. Now that it's not working, she's pretending to be tough by criticizing any country or any person that doesn't agree with her. Her policy backfired. Now she's the one seeking for help across Europe and the world.

And apparently her popularity is on a rise again, some medias reported. If she gets re-elected in 2017...
 
N867DA
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:42 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 79):
Their own kids will reject that philosophy.

I sometimes wonder how true this is true in Europe. I am an immigrant to the United States and though I visit my country of birth frequently I have only US citizenship and unequivocally support the United States and see myself as American exclusively. Some European countries do not do as well in making new Europeans, perhaps through no fault of their own.

It's funny Europeans are having a huge discussion about keeping people out when they themselves entered and ruled so many lands uninvited.
 
User avatar
AirPacific747
Posts: 9875
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 9:52 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:55 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 87):
It's funny Europeans are having a huge discussion about keeping people out when they themselves entered and ruled so many lands uninvited.

It's also funny that in the USA you are worried about all the illegal immigrants from central and south america when the US was founded by immigrants.
 
lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:43 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 87):
It's funny Europeans are having a huge discussion about keeping people out when they themselves entered and ruled so many lands uninvited.

First of all, not all countries entered and ruled so many lands uninvited. The majority of European peoples and countries had little to do with colonization. The ones that did have already allowed a significant number of migrants from their ex-colonies to move and become citizens. Just take a walk anywhere in France, the UK, Spain or Italy and you can witness it yourself.One more thing to consider is that the era of colonization ended a very long time ago, it being used as an excuse for everything is getting old.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 87):
I sometimes wonder how true this is true in Europe. I am an immigrant to the United States and though I visit my country of birth frequently I have only US citizenship and unequivocally support the United States and see myself as American exclusively. Some European countries do not do as well in making new Europeans, perhaps through no fault of their own.

I studied in the UK and most of my classes were predominantly Muslim by student count. I am talking about second and third generation who had little contact with the country of their ancestors. The way they reacted towards the western lifestyle/environment around them, such as seeing openly gay individuals on the streets, people showing PDAs etc was very surprising to me. When the talk would veer towards the west etc I would start to seriously ask them why they were still choosing to live in a country and an environment that they so much disliked and didn't feel part of. At the end of the day, nobody is keeping anyone prisoner in the west.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Topic Author
Posts: 3548
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2016 12:17 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 87):

I can tell you one reason that people integrate more into the american culture and its because your forced to. I was forced to integrate from an early age by my parents (who are both european) but since I go to Europe every summer I have become so interested into my parents culture that I have even learned the language and don't feel very american myself anymore. Other kids my age are integrated immediatly that I see how differnt they are to me when at school.
 
User avatar
lesfalls
Topic Author
Posts: 3548
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 11:58 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:50 pm

interview with a German girl who was raped in Cologne on the New years Eve attacks:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ds1RMpDQGvk
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:16 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 87):
It's funny Europeans are having a huge discussion about keeping people out when they themselves entered and ruled so many lands uninvited.

We Finns didn't, yet somehow the EU holds us as equally responsible when it comes to treating the mess caused by the US & old European colonial powers.

I think it's time to abandon the idea of common European identity, it's just not what the reality is.
 
Rara
Posts: 2310
Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:21 pm

Quoting N867DA (Reply 87):
It's funny Europeans are having a huge discussion about keeping people out when they themselves entered and ruled so many lands uninvited.

Good point. Europe is probably one of the worst things that ever happened to the planet as a whole. Not to mention that we ourselves manufactured many of the crises and wars that now bring people to our doorstep.

But that's a painful realization that not many people are willing to make anymore. In the populist mainstream that has taken much of the continent (and certainly most of this forum) in recent times, the above would just be derided as a "guilt trip".

American and East-Asian political scientists have written a great deal about Europe's coming demise, and I've never quite believed it. After all, we're a continent of some 500 million people, most of them highly educated and creative. But when I now see how those 500 million people want to wall themselves in and shiver at the sight of a couple million Unwashed who coming knocking at our door, I sort of start believing that Europe is on the way out.

If you read through this thread, you'll see a lot of fear, much hatred, some complacency, very little compassion and basically no confidence. That's Europe for you.
 
User avatar
pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:33 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 31):
she

Just to interject a demographic/sociological fact: women aren't a problem. Ever. The problem is always young men. Terrorism, crime, murder, rape both in European immigrant populations or in America or anywhere would never happen except for young men.

Quoting Redd (Reply 61):
I don't want to be waiting 12 hours at any border...

It was never 12 hours even in the dark ages of borders and passport control.

With today's technology there are ways to effectively have controls without interrupting traffic. It might mean a chip in your head, but that's coming anyway....




Pu.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:47 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
Good point. Europe is probably one of the worst things that ever happened to the planet as a whole. Not to mention that we ourselves manufactured many of the crises and wars that now bring people to our doorstep.

You Germans, British, French and perhaps the Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians and Italians did, very significant portion of Europe played no role whatsoever in colonialism or in causing two world wars. Pushing the blame on all Europeans is absolutely unfair.

I do agree that you Western Europeans are probably indeed the worst thing that has happened to this planet. But that's not because of colonialism or two world wars, no. That's because of industrialism and modern capitalism which were both invented by you, things that are very much behind uncontrolled population growth, destruction of natural environments and the climate change. Thanks to you Western Europeans people all around the world now have a higher standard of living than ever before, and that's bad. The planet would be much better off if Africans and Asians still lived like they did a couple of hundred years ago, and they would without Western Europeans.

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
American and East-Asian political scientists have written a great deal about Europe's coming demise, and I've never quite believed it. After all, we're a continent of some 500 million people, most of them highly educated and creative. But when I now see how those 500 million people want to wall themselves in and shiver at the sight of a couple million Unwashed who coming knocking at our door, I sort of start believing that Europe is on the way out.

Europe's coming demise will have much more to do with low birth rates, open borders immigration policy and rise of Islam than with people wanting to wall themselves.

I think larger waves of refugees are here to stay, and when the climate change progresses and population keeps growing at an unsustainable rate even more people will start looking for easier life in Europe. If we accept a million every year and most of them have much higher birth rate than native Europeans the demographics will shift rather rapidly.

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
If you read through this thread, you'll see a lot of fear, much hatred, some complacency, very little compassion and basically no confidence. That's Europe for you.

Yet it's nothing compared to what's going on in the other side of the Mediterranean. In most places refugees, if they are accepted in, aren't really given much other aid than a relatively safe place to stay. We give them free money, housing, food and healthcare. Also let's not forget a big portion of refugee camps in Africa and Asia are western funded.

With poor economy, more and more cuts on social welfare, healthcare and education I don't think we Finns have enough money to be any more humane than we currently are, in fact we don't have enough money to sustain current refugee levels. Also the total disrespect towards ours laws and culture shown by a lot of refugees from Middle East and Africa makes it more difficult to be compassionate towards them.
 
N867DA
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu May 15, 2008 12:53 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2016 12:38 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):

That's a bit extreme. Is this sarcasm?
 
vc10
Posts: 1436
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:29 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
You Germans, British, French and perhaps the Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians and Italians did, very significant portion of Europe played no role whatsoever in colonialism or in causing two world wars. Pushing the blame on all Europeans is absolutely unfair.

I think you forgot some , Japan, Zulus, Turkey, Dutch, Moguls ,,not to forget the invasion of what is now the UK by the Danes, Norwegians and Sweden, and I have just remembered in the beginning of WW1 did not Finland have some trouble with it's neighbour Russia.

RARA It is very simplistic to blame it all on mistakes of the past, that is if they were mistakes. the problems in the Middle East would have been there now if, instead of dividing the middle east up into countries after ww1 we had just left it as a vacuum, because no one likes a vacuum and local war lords would have fought for power , just as they do in Afganistan.

OK the question I have been asking through out this topic is "how many refugees /immigrants are enough" before the whole civil structure of European Society is altered. You say a million or two that is that will come, but what if the number should rise to 6 or 7 million or even 10 million is that enough to settle all the evil, has according to you done by Europe to the rest of the world .

No most civilization have come to an end not really by invading armies [ if you discount genocide] , but by that civilization arguing amongst themselves , and i have to say Europe looks that way today.

Perhaps instead of bickering amongst ourselves we combine and see if there is any external factor at work here.
Well no one can deny that the mess that the Middle East is in is a factor here , but why as far as Europe is concerned has it flared up in the last couple of years. Well initially Gadafi appeared to assist Italy by taking back any illegal immigrants that the Italian navy found ,but we all know what happened there. The strain on Italy of the subsequent free flow of North Africans into Italy did not go unnoticed by another country that being Turkey
Now Turkey has been for years been trying to negotiate entry into the EU and repeatedly been denied. Suddenly there is a huge movement of people across Turkey and into Europe and the Turkish government cannot or perhaps won't do any thing about it unless, according to the Turkish ambassador to the EU, the EU starts serious negotiations
about Turkey's entry into the EU.
So you can see that Turkey instead of using an army is invading Europe with crowds of poor refugees, so Europe has a choice either stand up to her or as RARA suggests we just give in
 
LSZH34
Posts: 655
Joined: Thu Jul 16, 2015 5:33 pm

RE: European Immigration Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:32 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
Good point. Europe is probably one of the worst things that ever happened to the planet as a whole.

Colonialsm was bad, but it also brought infrastructure and development to rural areas. As pvijn pointed out, few countries were actually involved in this. Not to mention that many european countries were also opressed during WW2, and the Cold War. And since colonialsm ended, how much money was sent and donated to Africa to rise the living standard? Some countries were sinners, but it's 2016 now and it's time to stop blaming it on the westerners. Africa is responsible for its own misery because of corruption, dictators and most importantely their own racism and intolerance towards other (ethnic) groups of Africa ( Hutu vs Tutsi in Rwanda, Christians vs Muslims in CAR, inflation in Zimbabwe, homophobes in Uganda to name a few). How many rebel wars were there in the 90s? At some point my compassion for Africa and its self-incurred misery stops.

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
Not to mention that we ourselves manufactured many of the crises and wars that now bring people to our doorstep.

No no listen, that's exactly wrong. About Africa: Read above.
As far as the ME is concerned: It started with Tunisia, where the protests were fairly peaceful and were started by the tunisian people itself. That's also the reason why this country is pretty much the only one where a kind-of-secular and democratic state could evolve.
Next came Egypt. Also initiated by the Egyptians. Barely peaceful, but without civil war. After a change to democracy, they fell back to a military dictatorship. However, the country remained fairly stable because it was not under foreign influence.
Then came the biggest mistake ever called Lybia. The people reacted with guns instead of words. Civil war broke out, they cried for help from the west and France came in. They bombed Ghadaffi out of the way and left a power-vacuum state back where up to now militant islamists can grow like cancer.
After that it swapped over to Syria where they also reacted with guns instead of going the diplomatic way. This time it was the US actively supplying so-called moderates (which they are not). Another country where islamists could spread.

To come to a conclusion: These countries are solely responsible for their failed revolution, because they lacked the intelligence to do it the right way. They are the ones that started the war, because they decided it would be wise to shoot back instead of going the diplomatic way. I'm confident Assad and Ghadaffi could have been forced out of office if the whole world had put pressure on them. If the west hadn't intervened , they would have blamed it on us anyway. But the fact that their country is in ruins is their responsibility in the first place. Just because you give someone a gun, doesn't mean you have to pull the trigger.

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
American and East-Asian political scientists have written a great deal about Europe's coming demise, and I've never quite believed it. After all, we're a continent of some 500 million people, most of them highly educated and creative. But when I now see how those 500 million people want to wall themselves in and shiver at the sight of a couple million Unwashed who coming knocking at our door, I sort of start believing that Europe is on the way out.
http://www.berlin-institut.org/filea...Africas_demographic_challenges.pdf

http://youtu.be/LPjzfGChGlE (Thanks AirPacific747)

"A couple million". I can only shake my head at this naivity. I sum up the video for you. It doesn't matter how many "millions" you save from 3rd world countries, their demography indicates that you actually don't save anyone. While 10 people flee from Africa, another 10 are born at the same time IN Africa. And now comes the key point. It's not just 10 equals 10. It's 10 equals 20 as Africa's population will double by 2030 (see link). If Europe decides to keep going like that, then it's only a matter of time until the native europeans are a minority (lower fertility rates). And by holding on to that policy à la Merkel, you will never stop the immigration flow. And that was just Africa for you. What about the whole middle east and Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bangladesh)? The mass exodus from the 3rd world needs to stop. Europe can't provide shelter, housing for "millions" (as you call it) of uneducated, welfare seeking, intolerant and agressive people. The demogprahic differences are a huge threat to Europe as a continent and its people.

Quoting Rara (Reply 93):
If you read through this thread, you'll see a lot of fear, much hatred, some complacency, very little compassion and basically no confidence. That's Europe for you.

What I just wrote is the hard reality and truth and is scientifically legit. Oh and fear is natural and not something inhumane.
 
frostyj
Posts: 1786
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:04 am

RE: European Immigration Thread

Fri Mar 04, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting Lesfalls (Reply 90):

What do you mean you were forced to integrate? You are an American, you were born in America.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: airsicknessbag, bpatus297, DeltaWings, Newark727 and 19 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos