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Flighty
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Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:25 am

Leaving civility to others, Americans have probably chosen two of our very ugliest fighters to contend for the presidency: Don Trump and Hillary Clinton. To about half the country, listening to one of these two is pure torture. Being somewhere in the middle, I am in awe of their conniving savvy.

They both have huge power bases. Is Trump the cobra and Hillary the Mongoose? Is Hillary the cobra and Trump the mongoose? What do you think
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:43 am

Regardless of the outcome...I smell a one-term president.

Truthfully, the only thing that will maintain any semblance of balance would be if The Congress went to the party opposing the newly minted president.
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N415XJ
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:13 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):

Truthfully, the only thing that will maintain any semblance of balance would be if The Congress went to the party opposing the newly minted president.

If by "semblance of balance" you mean complete, total, embarassing gridlock, then you're right. I feel that the Republicans would not play nicely with Trump, but would go into full shutdown mode with Hillary, in which case I wouldn't put it past them to block the Supreme Court nomination until the midterms. If Hillary wins, the Republicans win the midterms, and if Trump wins, the Democrats get it, and they wiould be every bit as obstructionist as their conservative amigos. Either way, we'll have 4 years of impeachement efforts from congress, and it will be grueling and nothing will get done. The biggest difference between the two is that Trump is the first presidential nominee to turn the stomachs of EVERYONE outside the US. The British parliament proposed to ban him from the UK,and the Mexican government did the same. Everyone I know outside of the US is revolted that he even has a chance to become president. Both Bush and Obama were unpopular globally (Bush more so obviously), but Trump is an entirely different kettle of fish. He would do massive damage to our image overseas which would severely hamper diplomacy efforts, if he was even interested in them. Also, having a President who openly encourages murdering potentially innocent family members of terrorists will be the best recruitment tool the Islamists could ever hope for.

[Edited 2016-03-15 20:15:38]
 
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:42 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
Trump is the first presidential nominee to turn the stomachs of EVERYONE outside the US.

Very true.
GW Bush almost managed that, but he still had a few fans outside the US.

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Americans have probably chosen two of our very ugliest fighters to contend for the presidency:

Again, as an outside observer to the race, I don't think you can display Trump and Hillary in the same cabinet... It is going to be ugly alright, but most of the blame for any lack of substance and down and dirty primal mud-flinging will rest on only one of these two. I find Hillary pretty tame, at least by American politics standards...
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
If by "semblance of balance" you mean complete, total, embarassing gridlock, then you're right.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:59 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):

Again, as an outside observer to the race, I don't think you can display Trump and Hillary in the same cabinet... It is going to be ugly alright, but most of the blame for any lack of substance and down and dirty primal mud-flinging will rest on only one of these two. I find Hillary pretty tame, at least by American politics standards...

This. Mrs. Clinton has her skeletons and her decisions I do not like, but she is NOT a megalomaniac potential dictator.
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fr8mech
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:14 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
This. Mrs. Clinton has her skeletons and her decisions I do not like, but she is NOT a megalomaniac potential dictator.

No, she isn't. She's a shrewd political insider with the right name and the proper initial after her name. She also has way too much baggage to get anything done if the opposition party runs either house of congress.

A President Trump would simply be another President Obama with an 'R' next to his name and not nearly as politically savvy.

As I indicated, whomever wins this election will be a care-taker president. At the risk of sounding simplistic, right now we need a uniter. None of the front-runners come even close to being that.

[Edited 2016-03-15 21:15:45]
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:23 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):

A President Trump would simply be another President Obama with an 'R' next to his name and not nearly as politically savvy.

Now you're conflating a megalomaniac businessman with a professor of Constitutional Law?
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fr8mech
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Now you're conflating a megalomaniac businessman with a professor of Constitutional Law?

No, I'm conflating a megolamaniac businessman with a petulant politician who also happens to be pedagogical professor of Constitutional Law.

They are the same personality...one is just more refined than the other.

[Edited 2016-03-15 21:32:37]
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
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Flighty
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:36 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
This. Mrs. Clinton has her skeletons and her decisions I do not like, but she is NOT a megalomaniac potential dictator.

We'll see. I haven't noted any hesitations about grasping or exercising power, or believing herself fit to be global leader. I think her behavior is as bizarre and egomaniacal as Trump. Both have an almost wild degree of self promotion that animates their every waking second.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 6):
As I indicated, whomever wins this election will be a care-taker president.

For how long? Isn't that what Mr. O is?

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
Also, having a President who openly encourages murdering potentially innocent family members of terrorists will be the best recruitment tool the Islamists could ever hope for

Well you just summed up one of the parties very well (plus Hillary, I might add). There is consensus that that is okay. You can expect both front runners to boast about who can kill more.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 3):
but most of the blame for any lack of substance and down and dirty primal mud-flinging will rest on only one of these two. I find Hillary pretty tame, at least by American politics standards...

We'll see again. The true political establishment (corporations, billionaires) will favor Hillary strongly. Around 1 billion will be spent flinging mud on Trump, you can expect that.
 
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:38 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
petulant politician who also happens to be pedagogical professor of Constitutional Law.

I have plenty of specific criticisms of President Obama, but cannot for the life of me, figure out what the hell you're on about...
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:40 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 9):
For how long? Isn't that what Mr. O is?

One term. Mr. Obama got two terms. But, I take your point, they are all supposed to be care-takers of the power the constitution provides the Executive.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
in which case I wouldn't put it past them to block the Supreme Court nomination until the midterms

Not if a nominee is put forth that is acceptable to The Senate. That's how it's supposed to work.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:46 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 10):
I have plenty of specific criticisms of President Obama, but cannot for the life of me, figure out what the hell you're on about...

This thread isn't about President Obama, but what I'm on about is the way he presents himself and his actions.

He believes that his way is the correct way...as we all do, but when his will is thwarted, he resorts to straw-man arguments, he picks up his phone and his pen, he works to circumvent the process. Instead of working to reach consensus, he believes it's his way and only his way. If that's not a megalomaniac, I don't know what is.

Listen to how the rhetoric spews from Trump's mouth and to how President Obama speaks, especially when he's not getting his way. They are the same person. One is just more refined than the other.

[Edited 2016-03-15 21:47:49]
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:50 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 8):
They are the same personality...one is just more refined than the other.

Bless your heart.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
Mrs. Clinton has her skeletons and her decisions I do not like, but she is NOT a megalomaniac potential dictator.

She's a calculating politician par excellence and will move with the opinion polls with the faintest fig leaf of leadership, which is probably the best we can ask for at this point.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:54 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):

Bless your heart.

              

I might not be from the South, but I know what that means!

So...

Mr. and Mrs. President Clinton.

The most mainstream Republican candidate is...Hillary Clinton.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:14 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
Bless your heart.


Again, with the ad-hominen.

Agree with me or not, it's how I see it.

Both are comfortable exercising power. Both are comfortable pushing and exceeding the limits of that power. Both are uncomfortable, even difficult, when denied something they want. Both become defensive and evasive when confronted with failure.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 13):
She's a calculating politician par excellence and will move with the opinion polls with the faintest fig leaf of leadership, which is probably the best we can ask for at this point.

Would it surprise you if I agreed with you?

[Edited 2016-03-15 22:15:57]

[Edited 2016-03-15 22:18:42]
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:32 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 12):
he resorts to straw-man arguments, he picks up his phone and his pen, he works to circumvent the process.

He tells everyone that Congressional Republicans refuse to work with him after Congressional Republicans say they will not work with him. How is that "straw-man"? Also, Obama has signed fewer executive orders than any two-term president before him. Obama says things that make sense, even if one does not agree with him. Trump simply talks. He keep saying "we are going to make America great again" but offers really nothing to back that up. Just "we need to make America great again" and not much else. Oh, except to kick out all the Muslims and "illegals" who are only rapists and drug dealers, anyway....
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:51 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
Again, with the ad-hominen.

Agree with me or not, it's how I see it.

No. That is objectively, factually untrue. You can dislike Obama and disagree with his beliefs, but to say he's the same as Trump is false. But like Trump, his supporters, and my narcissist sociopath sister in law (who'd be a great spokesperson for Trump BTW!), I'm not going to waste my breath trying to prove it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
The most mainstream Republican candidate is...Hillary Clinton.

   Didn't Bill usurp the Republican platform in the 90s?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
Would it surprise you if I agreed with you?

Not at all.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:54 am

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Is Trump the cobra and Hillary the Mongoose? Is Hillary the cobra and Trump the mongoose? What do you think

I think if you locked them in a room Trump would be the giver and Hillary would be the receiver. Actually, with those two, it might happen the other way around  
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:54 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
He tells everyone that Congressional Republicans refuse to work with him after Congressional Republicans say they will not work with him

What a president is supposed to do is get the opposition to work with him. You know, compromise? Both President Clinton and President Reagan were very good at it, along with their respective congressional leaders. President Obama looks for ways to get around opposition.

A President Trump would be the same animal. There would be very little compromise in the man.

Let's have a small mental exercise:

President Trump decides that taxes should be cut. A recalcitrant Democrat congress refuses to budge. According to Congress, taxes stay the way they are. President Trump whips out his pen and picks up his phone, and using a mix of executive action and regulatory action, slashes taxes across the board.

That work for you? It certainly doesn't for me, but the Obama-philes out there seem to think that kind of action is just fine, because he is the president, and it's what he wants.

Trump and Obama are the different sides of the same coin.

A President Clinton (Hillary) would be able to modify her position to meet the opposition half-way. She would be looking for political victories to a)secure a second term, b) barring that, a small legacy to put up on the metaphorical mantle next to her husband's.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 16):
He keep saying "we are going to make America great again" but offers really nothing to back that up

Hope and Change?
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:34 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
A President Trump would be the same animal. There would be very little compromise in the man.

BS. He's a businessman. Finding a middle ground is his Modus Operandi, no matter what the electioneering bluster might be. It is with ideologues (such as Obama) where compromise is most difficult. Trump has no ideology, as far as I can tell. he is liberal on some things, conservative on a few others.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 8:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
BS. He's a businessman. Finding a middle ground is his Modus Operandi, no matter what the electioneering bluster might be.

Yeah, I thought about that, but, first and foremost, he is a megalomaniac. There is no denying that. And, quite frankly, if he gets the ability to shape policy, I just don't think he's going to be amiable to moderation. Power corrupts, and while having money has all sorts of power attached to it, I think it pales in comparison to the presidency.

Interesting times.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Trump has no ideology,

That is concerning. He's not a liberal, not a conservative and not a moderate. He's reactionary and emotional. You can see that as he reacts to questions and events. Some people call him refreshing because he says what he (wants us to think he) believes. I call it pandering and unpredictable. Might it all be a act? Possibly.

This may well be the first presidential election in 26 years that I go to the polls without feeling good about my vote.


Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
Didn't Bill usurp the Republican platform in the 90s?

He didn't so much usurp it as modify his position enough to be palatable to the leadership. In other words, he compromised. Because, he understood, in order to govern you can't stand on ideology alone.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:10 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
BS. He's a businessman. Finding a middle ground is his Modus Operandi, no matter what the electioneering bluster might be.

He's not a very good one, often getting his ass handed to him if he's not lucky enough to pass the buck to some unsuspecting schmuck before it implodes.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Trump has no ideology, as far as I can tell. he is liberal on some things, conservative on a few others.

He has no brain. He just barks whatever bubbles up from his colon, which is diametrically opposite to what he said a minute prior.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
It is with ideologues (such as Obama) where compromise is most difficult.

Right. Like he acted in a vaccum. It takes two to tango, and the GOP ideologues on the other end of that tug o'war with Obama are standing around with their d#cks in their hands trying to stop Trump. How'd that work? Maybe they need more Jesus? More Beck/Limbaugh? More Rove? More recalcitrance? More obstruction of Obama?
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:28 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
He's a businessman. Finding a middle ground is his Modus Operandi, no matter what the electioneering bluster might be.

His record suggests that he's not very good at finding middle ground. And what do you know, his personality matches that quite well.

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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Hillary Clinton.

It will either be Trump v Clinton or Trump v Biden.

Don't be surprised if Clinton is 'removed' from the race over something to do with the e-mail investigation.

If that happens, you might see the Democrat Party looking to find an 'establishment' candidate and that won't be Sanders.

Sanders will be treated by the Democrats in the same way the GOP / Republicans are trying to get rid of Trump.

Biden will slot straight in and be handed the Democrat nomination and it could be Trump v Biden which should worry Democrats because Clinton has a lot more of a chance against Trump than Biden would.

I predict Clinton would beat Trump, but Trump would beat Biden.

The Democrats better keep their fingers crossed that the investigation into Clinton dies because if she can't run it would make the Trump / GOP conflict look like a non-event after what would unfold in the Democrats.

[Edited 2016-03-16 03:35:27]
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
This. Mrs. Clinton has her skeletons and her decisions I do not like, but she is NOT a megalomaniac potential dictator.

I agree with that.
They're not comparable. I would vote (if I was American) for Hillary without problem and even happily, but even if I was republican, I could not vote for Trump. This guy is just a rich megalomaniac, saying BS over BS.

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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:49 am

maybe in four years we will have beter candidates and/ or a new party.
 
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:18 pm

Quoting Flighty (Thread starter):
Leaving civility to others, Americans have probably chosen two of our very ugliest fighters to contend for the presidency: Don Trump and Hillary Clinton.

To be fair, there was not much of a choice on the Democratic side... Sanders is basically Trump's evil twin, but the scary part is that he gets a much higher percentage of the Democratic vote than Trump gets of the Republican one.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
Both Bush and Obama were unpopular globally

If there is one thing Obama's election has shown is that no matter what you think ignorant America-haters will hate America regardless of who is in charge, so perhaps you should start voting for a President based on what you think is better for the country instead of how you think some Eurodouche will react.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:33 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 27):
To be fair, there was not much of a choice on the Democratic side... Sanders is basically Trump's evil twin, but the scary part is that he gets a much higher percentage of the Democratic vote than Trump gets of the Republican one.

no that's basic math, since there were four candidates vs 2 candidates.
 
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:38 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
Regardless of the outcome...I smell a one-term president.

Nah, President Clinton for eight years.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
The British parliament proposed to ban him from the UK

No, some MPs debated whether he should be banned, but it was an out-of-chamber debate, so effectively meant absolutely nothing.

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
Both Bush and Obama were unpopular globally

Bush, absolutely. Obama - most popular POTUS outside the US for a very long time.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:52 pm

In case you guys didn't know, there is more than just the Republican Party and Democratic Party. We have third parties. Will they have any chance of winning the presidency? No. But if enough people vote third party it should send a message to the big two parties that we're sick of just right or left, Democrat or Republican. We need more options and make those options legitimate.
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:55 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
The biggest difference between the two is that Trump is the first presidential nomhttps://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/non_aviation/post.main?editmessage=Edit%20Message&updateid=2678076inee to turn the stomachs of EVERYONE outside the US. The British parliament proposed to ban him from the UK,and the Mexican government did the same. Everyone I know outside of the US is revolted that he even has a chance to become president.

Not really. Putin has endorsed Trump.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35811495

Birds of the same feather?

I see a worldwide trend of populist politicians pandering to illeducated masses, proposing "simple solutions" and scapegoating to complex problems.

Jan

[Edited 2016-03-16 06:24:07]
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:58 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 27):
Trump is basically Sanders' evil twin

Fixed that for ya.  
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 27):
If there is one thing Obama's election has shown is that no matter what you think ignorant America-haters will hate America regardless of who is in charge, so perhaps you should start voting for a President based on what you think is better for the country instead of how you think some Eurodouche will react.

Problem is, the world has to suffer the consequences of who gets voted into the White House without having any say in the matter.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Bush, absolutely. Obama - most popular POTUS outside the US for a very long time.

The teabaggers refuse to believe this though - see Pyrex's diatribe above as an example.
 
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 30):
In case you guys didn't know, there is more than just the Republican Party and Democratic Party. We have third parties.

LOL! No we don't. We may have some after-school clubs calling themselves "parties" but they don't have any seats in congress, the Courts, or the executive branch on a national level.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 31):

Not really. Putin has endorsed Trump.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35811495

Birds of the same feather?

No, Mr. Putin knows an inexperienced amateur when he sees one.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):

Regardless of the outcome...I smell a one-term president.

In 2015 the GOP had the opportunity to put forth some electable candidates on a national stage. The one and only example still in the race is Mr. Kasich and we see how well he is doing.

Karl Rove did a good job of screwing up the GOP. This is mostly his handiwork.
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coolian2
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Bush, absolutely. Obama - most popular POTUS outside the US for a very long time.

Yeah. I have no idea how someone could possibly have reached any other conclusion.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:18 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 23):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
He's a businessman. Finding a middle ground is his Modus Operandi, no matter what the electioneering bluster might be.

His record suggests that he's not very good at finding middle ground. And what do you know, his personality matches that quite well.

-Mir

There are some business men, who's idea of negotiations is "My way or the highway!". Ryanair's Michael O'Leary is one of them, and Trump seems to be another one. Their goal is not to reach a deal satisfactory for all sides, but to rape the other one. This works as long as they are in a position of strength, but .g. Trump, for all his bluster, failed miserably when he tried to force a Scottish landowner from his land, where he wanted to set up a golf hotel.
O'Leary also had to back pedal a few years ago when it was noticed that his running roughshod over everybody else cost FR market share, as the passengers rather went to the competition.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:25 pm

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 2):
The biggest difference between the two is that Trump is the first presidential nominee to turn the stomachs of EVERYONE outside the US.

I don't know about that, I started reading about Cruz, he's far far far worse than a box full of Trumps. Either way you have poor candidates on both sides of the divide, the problem is money, you've allowed money into the political process.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 1:40 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
Regardless of the outcome...I smell a one-term president.

Likely Hillary may only want to serve one term for medical/health reasons. She'll be 73 in 2020...on the other hand Bernie's 74 now.

No way Trump will beat Hillary....

[Edited 2016-03-16 06:42:51]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
nonrevman
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:12 pm

No matter what happens, about half of the country will believe we are screwed when election day comes. In a nutshell, I see this election as pitting someone who wants to run this country like it is a prison vs someone who probably should be in prison. Yes, we are completely polarized as a country.

Personally, I view both Clinton and Trump as being quite similar in some ways. Neither will be uniters. Get ready for 4-8 more years of an "us vs them" culture. Both have skeletons in their closets an a questionable history. Then you have personality, or should I say a lack thereof in both. I will probably go third party at this point since the main two seem to be "pick your poison". It is very sad that these two people will be chosen from over three hundred million people to be the main candidates for president.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:26 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 27):
Sanders is basically Trump's evil twin

Nonsense. Sanders is the most caring and genuine person on either ticket, regardless of what you think of his economic platform.

Quoting nonrevman (Reply 38):
Personally, I view both Clinton and Trump as being quite similar in some ways. Neither will be uniters. Get ready for 4-8 more years of an "us vs them" culture.

Got that right - it's going to be hell. Just wait till those two start their debates. Hope the Clintons are ready for all of their dirty laundry to hang loose.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:50 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36):

I don't know about that, I started reading about Cruz, he's far far far worse than a box full of Trumps

Absolutely. There are not enough horrible things that can be accurately said about Cruz, but Trump is where the noise is.

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 37):
No way Trump will beat Hillary....

Say that now... What happens after the primary when Trump makes a mad dash for the center?

The great thing about Trump (ok, I seriously can't believe I typed that...) is that he is actually not only electable, but the most such (by far) of any of the GOP candidates. His campaign is based mainly on emotive planks that simply don't play well with traditional political marketing. He is outspoken and bombastic (if we're putting things politely), but more than that, he's doing the best job at telling people what they want to hear. There's a reason why your unemployed racist uncle and your friend across town who day trades love this guy. And it's more than just "telling like it is". He's telling them that it's ok to feel the way they do. That it's ok to be angry at foreigners here without papers and that their gut feeling about Islam being a harbor of terrorism is right on. He's telling them that all the "fun" they have not being Politically Correct (and man, is that fashionable over the last year) is A-OK. Ugly as his message is, there's no guilt there. There are no obligatory statements about pulling together or having to be patriotic to people we disagree with.

Here is where Hillary is going to have a real problem. As this cycle's GOP nominee, Trump probably will take more minority votes than any GOP candidate has in the past. What is this blasphemy, you may ask? Remember all those Mexicans he wants to deport? Well, he never actually said Mexicans, he said illegals. As his campaign reaches the inner cities (and after last week's engagement at Chicago, you can bet your cat's life people will show up for more such spectacles), the message becomes something along the lines of "You don't have jobs because illegals have priced you out of the market. Now do you see why I want to change that?" I realise this sounds absurd, but it's worth noting that Trump is the only candidate in recent memory to even talk about the issues H1B visas are bringing to STEM jobs here. A large enough sales, um, I mean "political" campaign that has a healthy enough mix of half-way decent ideas, telling you you're right to fear those "others," and enough of an anti-establishment edge to keep folks tuned in, and a for real, honest to Stan win becomes possible.

He doesn't need every minority vote, just enough to upend a candidate who has spent her entire campaign burning the goodwill we've enjoyed from Women and Minorities over the past few decades. Who has spent most of her campaign reinforcing the image she has as a somewhat typical bought and paid for politician.

It's very, very easy to dismiss this guy. But the undeniable fact of the matter is that he is winning. Based on everything I've seen, Bernie actually has a much better shot going head to head than Hillary. He's at least addressing the same political fatigue Trump is. Hillary? Nothing there yet...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
In 2015 the GOP had the opportunity to put forth some electable candidates on a national stage. The one and only example still in the race is Mr. Kasich and we see how well he is doing.

Kasich is more extreme than you realize. He's just neither loud nor Cruz. Without at least some (phony or otherwise) populism, he's doing exactly as well as we expected...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):

LOL! No we don't. We may have some after-school clubs calling themselves "parties" but they don't have any seats in congress, the Courts, or the executive branch on a national level.

It's worse than that. Our "Third Parties" are universally better described as special interest parties that basically align to either of the duopoly. The teabaggers really are just the Pontiac to the GOP's Chevy, etc...
It’s perfectly natural to be surprised by something coming at you faster than light. You’d never see it coming anyway. . .
 
wingman
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 2:55 pm

To be honest, HRC truly is the closest thing to Reagan that the Republicans have. She's big business, not quite as hawkish on foreign policy but certainly not prone to start three WWIIIs immediately after her inauguration, and socially liberal (where Reagan didn't really give a shit either way). If she adds Warren to her ticket I think we'll have a formidable team in office that will be better at soliciting and negotiating compromise with Republicans. But contrary to what Fr8 says, Obama had nothing to work with in the past 8 years. The GOP has been saddled with a rabid fringe element that wouldn't compromise with Obama to save their own mothers. The Right has whipped its hordes into a brainless and paralyzing frenzy preventing any semblance of realistic and worthwhile governance.

Our only hope, possibly our last hope, is to have the GOP's ass literally handed to it on a platter come November so that they start seeing the light. And the light is that the fear mongering hate you keep screaming about is resonating with fewer and fewer people, and the longer you keep screaming about White values, Santa Clause, and all the landscaping jobs Mexican rapists are stealing in Texas the more damage you'll do to yourselves and the country. You guys better pick up the clue phone real fast because time is running out. In 2016 the best you could come up with is Donald Drumfph and the Christian version of the Ayatollah Khomeini. It's sad as hell.
 
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:16 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):
HRC truly is the closest thing to Reagan that the Republicans have.

Oh I agree which makes the rest of your comments a bit strange. HRC is for the elite while Sanders and Trump are speaking to the mass voter, whose livelihood has been totally messed up by elites. Meanwhile, the elites got all the money. Suddenly things like healthcare and university tuition (and in some cases, housing) are no longer affordable to the middle class.

I don't think this is about religion or particularly demographics, it's just about jobs. For African Americans, one party is advocating for their wage growth, and it may be the GOP, if it fully implements this pro-voter thing (which is the ONLY way they can hope to win in November). Just Trump clowning around won't get it done. GOP must tilt pretty far in favor of wage growth (which is, if you like, an anti-business thing the GOP so far would have never done). Which does include an anti-undocumented worker (and arguably, anti-immigrant) component. Most Americans have been getting screwed by globalist elites in both parties for years. And, they vote.

[Edited 2016-03-16 08:24:24]
 
StarAC17
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:46 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 19):
President Trump decides that taxes should be cut. A recalcitrant Democrat congress refuses to budge. According to Congress, taxes stay the way they are. President Trump whips out his pen and picks up his phone, and using a mix of executive action and regulatory action, slashes taxes across the board.

That work for you? It certainly doesn't for me, but the Obama-philes out there seem to think that kind of action is just fine, because he is the president, and it's what he wants.

Prove that any actions that Obama has made have violated the constitution and take it to the supreme court. That is how the system works.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
It is with ideologues (such as Obama) where compromise is most difficult. Trump has no ideology, as far as I can tell. he is liberal on some things, conservative on a few others.


January 20th, 2009 when a good chunk of the nation was celebrating the inauguration of the first African American president in the nations history. The leaders of the GOP met in a Washington restaurant planning how they can destroy the presidency of Obama.

Obama might have relationship problems with congressional leaders but the plan has been in place since day one.

Also Obama actaually has come close to comprising with the sane wing of the GOP in congress but you have these 30-40 people in congress called the freedom caucus that even drive the mainstream GOP nuts.

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 24):
Don't be surprised if Clinton is 'removed' from the race over something to do with the e-mail investigation.

Not happening.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 29):
Bush, absolutely. Obama - most popular POTUS outside the US for a very long time.

  

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 37):
Likely Hillary may only want to serve one term for medical/health reasons. She'll be 73 in 2020...on the other hand Bernie's 74 now.

Women live longer than men and Hillary looks like she is in good health and of solid mental capacity.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 40):
Kasich is more extreme than you realize. He's just neither loud nor Cruz. Without at least some (phony or otherwise) populism, he's doing exactly as well as we expected...

  
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mham001
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:38 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 43):
Prove that any actions

Why would anybody be interested in "proving" anything to a Canadian who cannot vote and has no skin in the game?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 4:51 pm

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 40):
Kasich is more extreme than you realize.

I said electable. I said nothing about his policies.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 40):
It's very, very easy to dismiss this guy. But the undeniable fact of the matter is that he is winning. Based on everything I've seen, Bernie actually has a much better shot going head to head than Hillary. He's at least addressing the same political fatigue Trump is. Hillary? Nothing there yet...

If that's the case, then why was last night such a crushing defeat? Why isn't he closer to her or even beating her?

Don't get me wrong; I feel the Bern. But I'm also not an idiot.
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"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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bmacleod
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 41):
and the Christian version of the Ayatollah Khomeini.

I'm really lost on that one    Who are you referring to??

The Iranian dictator I'm familiar with...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhollah_Khomeini

[Edited 2016-03-16 10:30:28]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
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Polot
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:49 pm

Quoting bmacleod (Reply 47):
I'm really lost on that one Who are you referring to??

The Iranian dictator I'm familiar with...

From your link:

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ruhollah Mūsavi Khomeini (Persian: روح‌الله خمینی‎‎, [ruːholˈlɑːhe χomeiˈniː] ( listen), 24 September 1902 – 3 June 1989), known in the Western world as Ayatollah Khomeini,[11]
 
bmacleod
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:52 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 48):
From your link:

Grand Ayatollah Sayyid Ruhollah Mūsavi Khomeini (Persian: روح‌الله خمینی‎‎, [ruːholˈlɑːhe χomeiˈniː] ( listen), 24 September 1902 – 3 June 1989), known in the Western world as Ayatollah Khomeini,[11]

Yes but the post refers to a 'Christian version' of the Ayatollah Khomeini...

[Edited 2016-03-16 10:53:52]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
dtw9
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RE: Polarized: It's Probably Hillary Vs Trump

Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:02 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 5):
This. Mrs. Clinton has her skeletons and her decisions I do not like, but she is NOT a megalomaniac potential dictator.

Hey Doc, I remember you saying a while back that you couldn't bring yourself to vote for a liar. So with that in mind, are you going to skip this election and stick to your convictions or are you going to go ahead and vote for the female version of the Donald?

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