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mham001
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:46 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 99):
Just needs more people to agree with him and he'll consider the intelligence level way higher.

It would be nice if people without a clue on the subject would listen and learn before dominating threads with garbage and insults. Like most Americans do in Euro-centric threads on this forum, the differences are night and day. Why do you think some have such need for that in US domestic threads? You must know, you think you know everything...
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 7:59 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 84):
Our voting works fully without any ID. Essentially you get mailed a document that enables you to vote. Each and every time. As all citizens are on a register anyway, it's eazypeazy.

Switzerland has a very efficient system of knowing where people live and what their status in. Every time you move residence, get married, die, etc, the Contrôle des habitants/Personenmeldeamt is informed. You can't even get an electrical connection unless they are informed. And their database is tied in with voter registration (and military, and justice, and tax authorities, and every other department who needs to know). In the US we have no such integrated system. People move, die, marry, have kids, change their names, etc all the time and the different authorities might no know about it for years, if ever. Yes, it's a drawback, and I'd love to have something like the Swiss system here. But it ain't going to happen (for several reasons). Lacking such a system, voter ID is a reasonable means to ensure that only qualified people vote, and vote only once.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 91):
And when a child finds your gun and shoot someone else, will you still say the same thing?

There are no kids in my house anymore, and when they were my guns were very much hidden and locked. I taught them how to shoot, but they never knew where the guns were hidden to this day.
 
coolian2
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:12 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 100):
Why do you think some have such need for that in US domestic threads?

This again?
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 76):

$12 is almost two hours pay at the federal minimum wage. Think about what impact those two hours pay could have on someone living paycheck to paycheck, there is no way for them to afford it.

And by the very nature that they don't have a drivers license, presumably they don't drive. There's no way they can afford a cab, so public transport might be their best option. Outside of large cities public transport is atrocious in the USA, having tried to get around Greensboro NC by public bus before I can only wish luck to anyone who has to regulatory commute by such means. Getting to the DVA could therefore be an epic pain in the ass notwithstanding waiting there. If every police station, post office, town hall, library etc could issue IDs as well that would somewhat reduce this by allowing more options which might be more convenient.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 101):
There are no kids in my house anymore, and when they were my guns were very much hidden and locked. I taught them how to shoot, but they never knew where the guns were hidden to this day.

Then you were lucky.....I guess ?

43 instances this year of somebody being shot by a toddler 3 or younger. In 31 of those 43 cases, a toddler found a gun and shot himself or herself.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/10/14/people-are-getting-shot-by-toddlers-on-a-weekly-basis-this-year/
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:40 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 104):
43 instances this year of somebody being shot by a toddler 3 or younger. In 31 of those 43 cases, a toddler found a gun and shot himself or herself.

And in how many of those cases the gun in question was in a locked gun safe? Ammo stowed elsewhere (also locked)? If the gun is kept loaded (for home defense), how many were stored in someplace completely out of reach of a toddler?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:50 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):

And in how many of those cases the gun in question was in a locked gun safe? Ammo stowed elsewhere (also locked)? If the gun is kept loaded (for home defense), how many were stored in someplace completely out of reach of a toddler?

None. And that's the problem. It would seem to me that the VAST MAJORITY of gun owners are not responsible about storing and securing their weapons, but of course I can't say that for sure because the NRA has made sure that nobody in the USA is able to get grant money to study that question.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:34 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
in how many of those cases the gun in question was in a locked gun safe? Ammo stowed elsewhere (also locked)? If the gun is kept loaded (for home defense), how many were stored in someplace completely out of reach of a toddler?

Who cares? Not like the NRA gives a crap as long as it's selling more guns. That dumb NRA cheerleader (redundant, I know) in Florida was just blown away by her four year old. Yay responsible gun owners! Now she's a paraplegic 4 gun rightz!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:39 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
And in how many of those cases the gun in question was in a locked gun safe?

Well obviously not enough were kept locked up.

And this, by what many call "responsible gun owners"

These people should be locked up, for not only putting their families at risk, but a significant part to the general population too.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
I can't say that for sure because the NRA has made sure that nobody in the USA is able to get grant money to study that question.

Wow, they only need to google it !
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:59 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
but of course I can't say that for sure because the NRA has made sure that nobody in the USA is able to get grant money to study that question.

Wait, how is it possible for any organization to block study funds. That is BS.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:21 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
but of course I can't say that for sure because

Because the number of deaths is small compared to both the number of gun owners and the number of guns in circulation.

I don't need a study grant to arrive at that conclusion. What we can say is that too many people are being killed each year through carelessness, accidents or criminal intent. But we can not positively conclude from the fatalities that

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
the VAST MAJORITY of gun owners are not responsible about storing and securing their weapons

That's pure hyperbole. Maybe a suitable rhetorical device but hardly conducive to gaining support for any changes that might reduce fatalities.
 
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akiss20
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:39 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
but of course I can't say that for sure because the NRA has made sure that nobody in the USA is able to get grant money to study that question.

Wait, how is it possible for any organization to block study funds. That is BS.
http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-n...kills-gun-violence-research-2013-1

CDC/NIH/NSF would be a primary funder of such research. NRA has done a pretty good job making sure they can't through lobbying efforts.
 
Max Q
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:14 am

Arguing with a gun nut makes as much sense as donald trump.
 
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seb146
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
None. And that's the problem. It would seem to me that the VAST MAJORITY of gun owners are not responsible about storing and securing their weapons,

There are idiot gun owners. I get what you are saying. And, no, thanks to NRA, there is no way of knowing how many "responsible" gun owners allow murder in their home by a family member.

There are responsible gun owners who do store the weapon, locked, in one place and the ammo, locked, in another location. Then, there are those who call themselves responsible who just leave any ole gun laying around because what if Obama bursts through the door to seize guns or some bad guy tries to rob them or some other Zero Dark Thirty fantasy.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
And in how many of those cases the gun in question was in a locked gun safe?

So what you are saying is: there is an acceptable death by responsible gun owner limit so who cares because we have not reached that limit? It is obvious that limit will never be reached when children killing children is acceptable.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:58 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Wait, how is it possible for any organization to block study funds. That is BS.

By not allowing the gubmint to study these questions. Congresspeople have to be on good terms with the NRA, and they play their game in D.C. - and guess what, it even happens with climate research.

The important thing is that a government-funded study is often trusted more than one where money has been funnelled through various interest groups.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 112):
Arguing with a gun nut makes as much sense as donald trump.

The debate were much, much more rational if guns were understood as a tool to kill. But in the US they are adored like cruzifixes. There's a real religion surrounding teh gunz.


David
 
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Revelation
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:44 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 95):
I'm not sure why I opened a gun thread on Anet and expected intelligent discussion.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 112):
Arguing with a gun nut makes as much sense as donald trump.

Both of these statements are in alignment.

You can't have an intelligent discussion with the:

Quoting GDB (Reply 32):
paranoid and proudly ignorant
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:34 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 101):
Yes, it's a drawback, and I'd love to have something like the Swiss system here.

But...but...government overreach! I have the right to not be tracked by the government! PRIVACY, I SAY!
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 101):
voter ID is a reasonable means to ensure that only qualified people vote, and vote only once.

who determins "qualified"? This year I'd be much more concerned about getting qualified candidates. So far None in sight.

As to double voting, there's a simple low tech solution, just put one finger into an ink vat . Choose any but preferrably the middle finger .
 
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CALTECH
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:18 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Go find facts and figures on how many "liberals" and ISIS attacks on American soil have killed thousands. Let us know how many "responsible" gun owners have stopped those thousands of "liberal" and ISIS gun attacks in this country.

Here ya go liberal, have fun......  

Since most blacks vote democrat/liberal,.....

http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/polls...roups-voted/how-groups-voted-2012/

'RACE African-American

% of group----------Obama-------Romney
-----13------------------93%----------6%'

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr..._race_and_sex_of_offender_2013.xls



'There is much media agonizing over black-on-black violence, but these figures show that only 40.1 percent of the victims of black violence are black, while people of other races account for nearly 60 percent of the victims of black violence.'

http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2015...leased/latest-crime-stats-released

'Here are some highlights from Crime in the United States, 2014:

There were an estimated 1,165,383 violent crimes (murder and non-negligent homicides, rapes, robberies, and aggravated assaults) reported by law enforcement.'

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/?_r=0

And this is just the reported ones,

'A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 '   
 
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seb146
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:21 pm

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 118):
Here ya go liberal,

You missed the entire point I was trying to make.

Right wingers freak out over ISIS constantly. Always in fear that ISIS is attacking and that ISIS is bringing down democracy. Compare the numbers of Americans in the United States killed by ISIS attacks on American soil to the number of gun deaths from legally owned guns by Americans.

But, thanks for regurgitating the tired old right wing argument that blacks need to be controlled and put in their place.
 
UA444
Posts: 3159
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:02 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
Always in fear that ISIS is attacking and that ISIS is bringing down democracy. Compare the numbers of Americans in the United States killed by ISIS attacks on American soil to the number of gun deaths from legally owned guns by Americans.

Yes, how dare "right wingers" be worried about the real threat that ISIS poses to the US. It's not like ISIS has successfully harmed hundreds in big cities or anything in the past 6 months alone, and it's not like they've influenced people on our soil or anything. They're the Junior Varsity team, of course.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1901
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:07 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 119):
Compare the numbers of Americans in the United States killed by ISIS attacks on American soil to the number of gun deaths from legally owned guns by Americans.

As usual, you didn't read, or chose to ignore a significant part of a post... See source below... But I'd be surprised if you even wanted to read it because it doesn't fit your narrative of evil white males with guns shooting up everyone.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 118):
http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/?_r=0

And this is just the reported ones,

'A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 '   
 
bgm
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:58 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 120):
Yes, how dare "right wingers" be worried about the real threat that ISIS poses to the US. It's not like ISIS has successfully harmed hundreds in big cities or anything in the past 6 months alone, and it's not like they've influenced people on our soil or anything. They're the Junior Varsity team, of course.

Unbelievable. You fail to realize that the single biggest threat to Americans are Americans themselves. You're far more likely to die from being shot at, or an auto accident caused by yourself or a fellow citizen. Heck, how many people developed self-inflicted fatal heath conditions due to poor lifestyle choices?

Yes, ISIS is a threat, just like Ebola was. You just need to put into perspective what the real risk is to you.
 
bgm
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:12 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 100):
Why do you think some have such need for that in US domestic threads?

Because America's gun culture is seen by many inside the US and almost everyone outside the US as completely insane.

Batsh*t crazy insanity. That's why.

Oh yeah, and this is an international forum. Deal with it.
 
UA444
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting bgm (Reply 123):
Because America's gun culture is seen by many inside the US and almost everyone outside the US as completely insane.

Cool. Then don't move here.
 
Acheron
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:43 pm

Seems a.net has an official Stormfront/KKK representative and everything.

Anyway...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kim-fa...crime-rates-your-st_b_8078586.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...eet-blacks-white-homicide-victims/
Blacks killed by whites 8%
Blacks killed by blacks 90%
Whites killed by whites 82%
Whites killed by blacks 15%
 
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seb146
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:35 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 121):
it doesn't fit your narrative of evil white males with guns shooting up everyone.

Actually, my narrative is that guns owned by Americans are far more likely to kill than ISIS inside the United States. I made no mention of skin color or gender. That was you right wingers justifying your need to cling to guns. I asked a question and the response I got was "yeah, well the blacks...."

Go back and read my question.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:32 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 124):

Quoting bgm (Reply 123):
Because America's gun culture is seen by many inside the US and almost everyone outside the US as completely insane.

Cool. Then don't move here.

So you're super concerned about ISIS but when it's pointed out that you are far more likely to be killed by furniture, you respond "don't move here". Can't say I'm surprised. We know who you're voting for!  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Wait, how is it possible for any organization to block study funds. That is BS.

This is basic common knowledge. We know you have access to the Internet...have you tried reading stuff on said Internet?
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1901
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:12 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 126):
Actually, my narrative is that guns owned by Americans are far more likely to kill than ISIS inside the United States. I made no mention of skin color or gender.

Not true at all see what you said in post 13:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 13):
Let us know how many "responsible" gun owners have stopped those thousands of "liberal" and ISIS gun attacks in this country.

You actually were implying a comparison between gun owners stopping attacks and ISIS attacks... I actually agree that it is far more likely to get killed by a gun than ISIS in America, but is disingenuous to suggest that it is likely for any American to be victim of a gun homicide who isn't involved in gangs/crime/drugs.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 126):
That was you right wingers justifying your need to cling to guns.

Yep you got me, I'm one of those crazy ass "right winger" that doesn't own a gun, won't ever own a gun, hasn't ever fired a gun, supports background checks, and common sense gun control. The funny thing is you think I'm a "right winger" based on what you think you read not what I actually post.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 126):
I asked a question and the response I got was "yeah, well the blacks...."

That's the response you heard not the response you got. But that is to be expected from someone who spouts his rhetoric without EVER producing a source for anything he is theorizing.
 
UA444
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 127):

No, that wasn't what I said. But expecting you to actually read and interpret words correctly is a lost cause.

And you haven't a clue who I'm voting for.

[Edited 2016-03-30 15:18:33]
 
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seb146
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:19 am

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 128):
That's the response you heard not the response you got.

I was talking about ISIS related shootings and, in response, I get numbers on how many blacks murder people. I am pretty sure that is what happened. Or am I not to believe my own eyes? If I scroll up, what am I going to see?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:12 am

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 128):

You actually were implying a comparison between gun owners stopping attacks and ISIS attacks... I actually agree that it is far more likely to get killed by a gun than ISIS in America, but is disingenuous to suggest that it is likely for any American to be victim of a gun homicide who isn't involved in gangs/crime/drugs.

Since 2010, more Americans unrelated to gangs (Sandy Hook, Aurora, SC Church, etc.) have been killed by non-Muslim Americans with guns than Americans have been killed by Muslims with guns in the U.S.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:14 am

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 111):
Wait, how is it possible for any organization to block study funds. That is BS.
http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-n...013-1

Find the money elsewhere. There are thousands of universities and interested organizations - why does the federal government need to provide the funds?

So your argument is still BS. The fed is not the sole legitimate source of study funding.
 
coolian2
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:05 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
Find the money elsewhere. There are thousands of universities and interested organizations - why does the federal government need to provide the funds?

It would be pretty stupid for the NRA to pay for a study that will inevitably find against themselves.
 
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seb146
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:13 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
Find the money elsewhere.

Find the money elsewhere to figure out how to stop Zika. Find the money elsewhere to stop measles. Find the money elsewhere to stop the plague. Why bother stating the obvious? We just need to know guns are safe. Sounds legit.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:34 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
Find the money elsewhere. There are thousands of universities and interested organizations - why does the federal government need to provide the funds?

I've already explained why this is a problem. There are topics where you HAVE to insure that the donors in no way influence the outcome of the study. And it also works "invisibly", meaning as a researcher you won't get any future contracts if you don't arrive at the "correct" conclusions. Nobody has to explicitly tell the scientist what to do.

The best way to assure free research is funding institutes with no strings attached. So the universities and the CDC can research gun violence on their own budget.

Government funding is a quite good guarantee that you're free to come to the correct conclusions. But it's the... GOP *badummmts* that has been putting up obstacles to research. E.g. by attaching stipulations to research funding bills. It has happened, time and again.

Enjoy: http://uk.businessinsider.com/congre...research-rewnewed-2015-7?r=US&IR=T


David
 
 
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akiss20
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:37 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 111):
Wait, how is it possible for any organization to block study funds. That is BS.
http://www.businessinsider.com/cdc-n...013-1

Find the money elsewhere. There are thousands of universities and interested organizations - why does the federal government need to provide the funds?

So your argument is still BS. The fed is not the sole legitimate source of study funding.

First of all it was never my argument that research is banned, only that the major funding sources of this type of research is restricted from doing it.

I am not sure how involved in academia you are/were, but universities rarely do research on their own dime. The vast majority of research is done through funding by grants. Grants for studies such as these do tend to come largely from public sources such as the CDC/NIH/NSF. So just saying there are thousands of universities is not a legitimate argument that funding is readily available.

There are likely several private organizations that have the financial capability and interest to fund research that would actually be significant. The question now becomes, how objective is the research that comes from private funding? This is not at all to imply that funding from private sources is inherently more biased than that of public sources, but it is something that must be evaluated, especially when considering such a political topic (we all know how unbiased the "research" from the tobacco industry). The potential for bias is likely greater when the research is backed by the NRA, or from the Million Mom March. Given all this, the funding for a large-scale study is actually not that trivial. Furthermore, CDC/NSF/NIH funding opens a lot of potential doors to data access. Funding partners often donate not only money but resources and data (this is certainly true for my research). Public studies would have greater access to other parts of government data that may not be easily accessible, or at all accessible, to private studies.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 136):

http://thefederalist.com/2015/12/15/...-cut-the-cdcs-gun-research-budget/

http://www.politico.com/agenda/story...t-the-cdc-with-gun-research-000340

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014...ms-research.html?intcmp=latestnews

Three super solid articles there.

The Fox news one is predicated on just the number of studies. It finally notes at the very end that the *percentage* of firearms articles with respect to the number of articles has fallen dramatically. The number of medical articles increased by 250% whereas the number of firearm-related articles has been relatively constant. That isn't even including the fact that firearm studies may not always be classified as medical, so it isn't necessarily fair to only compare it to the growth of medical studies (other fields such as criminology should likely be included). Regardless, number of articles is not itself an encompassing metric. It speaks nothing to the quality of articles being produced. I can't speak for this field, but I can speak to my own and say there are quite a few articles out there in lesser known journals that aren't very high quality.

The politico articles is written by the head of the NRA ILA, which in of itself is a pretty big red flag. It bashes a researcher for being a member of a gun-control advocacy organization when his research has shown that gun violence is high. That's like bashing a cancer researcher for being in an organization that seeks to cure cancer. He claims that the rider doesn't ban research entirely, only research that is aimed "to drive the political gun control agenda." First of all, he clearly isn't a scientist if he thinks that any large percentage of research advocates a specific action. Scientists are much more timid to suggest a course of action in their research than people think, because research's job is not to advocate action. It is to develop models, evidence, and causal relationships. What you do with that information afterwords is up to the individual. Second, who gets to decide whether research drives the political gun control agenda? I can guess what the NRA would say. He also makes tons of uncited, unsubstantiated hyperbole such as "Statistics and data linked to firearm-related violence are complex, and frequently skewed by those who oppose gun ownership. Firearm research generally speaks only to the alleged possible risks associated with gun ownership, never to the benefits that law-abiding gun owners provide to society as a whole." Got anything to back any of that up there Chris?

Furthermore, all of these articles rely on soundbites and few examples of "bias." They present no statistical argument that the existing gun research is actually biased. Of course there will always be some biased studies in the literature, that is inherently true. The question is whether there is evidence of systemic bias and failure of objectivity. These articles present no evidence of that. The soundbites they use smell of being taken of out of context or misrepresented (not saying they were, but the language used sounds similar to that of, for example, CRU email "scandal").

If the NRA really wants to paint the picture that they aren't attempting to block research for their own political purposes and actually want objective research, they have to first demonstrate systemic bias, and second develop a system by which the research can be done in an objective manner that is agreed upon by the other side. If the NRA were to unite with the VPC or some such organization and together develop a framework for objective gun violence research, I might believe they actually want that. I am not holding my breath.

[Edited 2016-03-31 06:12:13]
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:58 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 129):
And you haven't a clue who I'm voting for.

I think it's pretty obvious.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 129):
No, that wasn't what I said. But expecting you to actually read and interpret words correctly is a lost cause.

Really. What do you mean by "don't move here" then? That's literally what you said in response to someone showing you you're dead wrong.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 132):
So your argument is still BS. The fed is not the sole legitimate source of study funding.

Why do you suppose the NRA wants to prevent the government studying the effect of guns if they're so wonderful?
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 6201
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 1:11 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 137):

Welcome on my RU for writing this comprehensive reply.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 138):
Why do you suppose the NRA wants to prevent the government studying the effect of guns if they're so wonderful?

Because guns are making the people feel more safe, but guns alone never achieve any safety in terms of deaths and injuries. You do not need any study for the former.   


David
 
wingman
Posts: 4209
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:27 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Welcome on my RU for writing this comprehensive reply.

Very well written and it exposes the general problem with mass media today. People believe what they want to believe and rely on "sources" of information that buttress their positions without thinking through the quality of those sources.

In the case of firearms the vast majority of gun control advocates simply want to sit down and have a rational discussion about controlling the manufacture, distribution and licensing. No administration in the past 220 years has ever advocated for the repeal of the 2nd Amendment. But the NRA and people like many posters above use this myth to perpetuate an irrational fear of government that is simply and truly unfounded. The cost of that unwillingness to discuss even an attempt to try something new to decrease the amount of gun deaths in this country is 20,000 lives per year.

In defense of a separate point, that does make the threat if ISIS look rather silly in comparison. Since 9-11 the US has probably suffered what??, some 5000 terrorism related deaths on US soil, I don't know. But there have been over 300,000 lives cut short by guns. All most of us want to do is have a rational debate and to make a genuine attempt to work on the problem. Injecting more guns into the system has never worked before and it will never work in the future, it will simply maintain what is a terrible status quo.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1901
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:34 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 131):
Since 2010, more Americans unrelated to gangs (Sandy Hook, Aurora, SC Church, etc.) have been killed by non-Muslim Americans with guns than Americans have been killed by Muslims with guns in the U.S.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...s-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

Like I said that is true, but that number is ~190. So lets not pretend that getting shot up in a mass shooting is a likely event either.
 
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akiss20
Posts: 963
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:41 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 141):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 131):
Since 2010, more Americans unrelated to gangs (Sandy Hook, Aurora, SC Church, etc.) have been killed by non-Muslim Americans with guns than Americans have been killed by Muslims with guns in the U.S.
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/...s-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

Like I said that is true, but that number is ~190. So lets not pretend that getting shot up in a mass shooting is a likely event either.

Taking your 190 number as correct (I didn't do the math), that is only "Mass shooting" deaths. Mother Jones classifies mass shootings according to the following criteria http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map but the major one is that it must have at least 4 fatal victims in a single incident. This would not encompass any non-gang related killings that have less than 4 victims. I don't have the numbers on hand, but I imagine the majority of gun deaths (gang or non-gang) are single or two victim crimes. In fact it even says that "Crimes primarily related to gang activity, armed robbery, or domestic violence in homes are not included." That 190 number doesn't include armed robbery or domestic violence.

This doesn't seem like the best source to get at the non-gang, gun death number.
 
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akiss20
Posts: 963
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RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:57 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 140):
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Welcome on my RU for writing this comprehensive reply.

Very well written and it exposes the general problem with mass media today.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 139):
Quoting akiss20 (Reply 137):

Welcome on my RU for writing this comprehensive reply.

Thank you very much! Apologies for the typos, it was written pre-coffee intake  
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1901
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:19 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 142):
This doesn't seem like the best source to get at the non-gang, gun death number.

I wasn't trying to necessarily pass it as an all encompassing number. All the examples Doc cited in his post were mass shootings. If we want to talk about non-gang gun deaths suicides account for 60%+. I will still contend that it is disingenuous to argue that it is quite likely to be a victim of a homicide. Lets be real, being killed by ISIS in the USA is extremely unlikely, being victim of a gun homicide is very unlikely, and being involved in a mass shooting is extremely unlikely. None of that means we shouldn't have background checks and mandatory training, we should.
 
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akiss20
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Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 3:46 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 144):
Quoting akiss20 (Reply 142):
This doesn't seem like the best source to get at the non-gang, gun death number.

I wasn't trying to necessarily pass it as an all encompassing number. All the examples Doc cited in his post were mass shootings. If we want to talk about non-gang gun deaths suicides account for 60%+. I will still contend that it is disingenuous to argue that it is quite likely to be a victim of a homicide. Lets be real, being killed by ISIS in the USA is extremely unlikely, being victim of a gun homicide is very unlikely, and being involved in a mass shooting is extremely unlikely. None of that means we shouldn't have background checks and mandatory training, we should.


Ah I see. Yes Doc did cite only mass shootings, but he was speaking to non-gang gun deaths in general. But I see why you went to that data set now.

I absolutely agree that the probability of being killed by ISIS, homicide, and mass shooting is small compared to unity. That does not mean, however, that the probability of one of these things cannot be orders of magnitude greater than the other. I would argue (and it appears the numbers agree) that the probability of being killed by gun homicide is orders of magnitude greater than being killed by ISIS. Thus the argument is if we are willing to spend X resources and allow Y legislation to reduce the risk of being killed by ISIS, why would we not put equivalent, if not greater, resources and legislation to reducing the risk of being killed by gun homicide?
 
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DocLightning
Posts: 22286
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:17 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 144):

I wasn't trying to necessarily pass it as an all encompassing number. All the examples Doc cited in his post were mass shootings. If we want to talk about non-gang gun deaths suicides account for 60%+. I will still contend that it is disingenuous to argue that it is quite likely to be a victim of a homicide. Lets be real, being killed by ISIS in the USA is extremely unlikely, being victim of a gun homicide is very unlikely, and being involved in a mass shooting is extremely unlikely. None of that means we shouldn't have background checks and mandatory training, we should.

Well, background checks and mandatory training is, to the pro-gun crowd "A VIOLASHUN OF MAI RITES!!!"

I'd be quite happy if the requirement to own a gun were similar to the requirements to have a driver's license. That would be a *major* improvement.
 
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seb146
Posts: 24170
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:46 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 144):
Lets be real, being killed by ISIS in the USA is extremely unlikely,

That was what I was originally saying but it was taken way off the rails.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 144):
being victim of a gun homicide is very unlikely, and being involved in a mass shooting is extremely unlikely.

But these scenarios are more likely. There was a woman killed in San Francisco as the result of a private gun sale. No background check required. Thanks, NRA!

Something does need to be done about gun violence and gun deaths. When anyone says that, the first thing the right wingers say is "That proves you 'liberals' want to take everyone's guns away!" No, it does not.

Look at the current string of anti-LGBT legislation. So much money and time being put into shielding people from nothing. But gun deaths? meh.... And that is the "party of life and personal freedom" doing this.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9316
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:24 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 147):
Look at the current string of anti-LGBT legislation. So much money and time being put into shielding people from nothing. But gun deaths? meh.... And that is the "party of life and personal freedom" doing this.

That isn't a contradiction. That is coherence. But how could you be expected to see that when you are unwilling to consider the values of people you disagree with?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 146):
I'd be quite happy if the requirement to own a gun were similar to the requirements to have a driver's license. That would be a *major* improvement.

While we are at it, what other constitutional rights can we apply drivers license requirements? Voting? Jury trials? Free speech?
 
wingman
Posts: 4209
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:25 am

RE: Petition To Allow Guns At Republican Convention!

Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:43 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 148):
While we are at it, what other constitutional rights can we apply drivers license requirements? Voting? Jury trials? Free speech?

Yes to all three, the day any or all of them directly or indirectly contributes to 20,000 dead Americans each and every year, just like cars and guns. Come on man.

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