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Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 6:56 pm

In case you were wondering why we had threads on Brussels yet not Lahore, the map will show you what areas you should expect threads on and which ones you should not:

http://assets1.bigthink.com/system/tinymce_assets/1781/original/mapamundo_tragico.jpg?1447753136

Quote:
This Mapamundi Tragico colour-codes the horror we experience, and the concomitant empathy we feel, for the tragedies that occur all over the world, from a Western perspective. Those feelings of empathy decrease as the cultural, economic, and geographical distance to the disaster and its victims increases.

The map details five concentric zones of compassion. The red zone, fairly contiguous with what used to be called the "first world," is Ground Zero for our sympathies. For disasters in Canada and the U.S. (but not, strangely enough, Alaska), Western and Central Europe, Israel, Japan and Australia (sorry, no New Zealanders!), we say: Que gran tragedia!

The second circle of sympathy comprises most of Latin America (but not Venezuela, nor the Central American states), the part of Eastern Europe squeezed between Russia and the West, Egypt, South Africa, India, and South Korea. Something terrible goes down here, we can still bring ourselves to think: Ay no, qué triste. But if you're in a train wreck or plane crash in Russia, China, the Middle East, Venezuela, Cuba, or Central America, we shrug: Bueno, asi es la vida. No tears please, they make you look even poorer.

There's worse depths our empathy can sink to. Dozens of miners trapped underground, an apartment building ablaze, a bomb going off in a market place — if that happens in the Guyanas, Mongolia, Central Asia, or the bits of that continent to the west or east of India, our reaction is: Wait a second, does that country even exist? But that's still better than our response to tragedy in most of Africa: Mneh. Or when will your Facebook profile start reflecting your concerns about that genocide now looming in Burundi?

So Pakistan gets the "Wait a second, does that country even exist?" response, one step up from "Mneh"...

Ref: http://bigthink.com/strange-maps/the-geography-of-empathy-and-apathy

Sadly they don't seem to give any info on the scientific basis of the illustration, but it seems to map things out fairly accurately.

Offered without criticism, because IMHO it's fairly natural you relate more to events closer to yourself both geographically and culturally.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:07 pm

I'm still waiting for the outrage from the right wing media regarding the attack on Christians...oh wait, it happened on a Muslim country to people that look dangerous. For all we know these could have been ISIS militants being victims to create propaganda...no. Don't care enough for them.

It's kinda sad this is happening though. It means people don't value life equally. Anyone on the green category and below is worthy of a "what's it to me?" response.
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DocLightning
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:43 pm

I would point out that the Pakistani government has been doing a lovely job of pandering to and trying to placate their Taliban constituency. And so this is what happens.

Appeasement never works.
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OA260
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I would point out that the Pakistani government has been doing a lovely job of pandering to and trying to placate their Taliban constituency. And so this is what happens.

Yep pretty much .      
 
mham001
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:02 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
I'm still waiting for the outrage from the right wing media regarding the attack on Christians...oh wait, it happened on a Muslim country to people that look dangerous. For all we know these could have been ISIS militants being victims to create propaganda...no. Don't care enough for them.

What good would that have done to point out they were Christians, and we are outraged!? That is not politically correct and the usual response would be demonstrations proclaiming Islam as the faith of peace.

But probably largely because a) Belgium is closer and b)Pakistan has been harboring the Taliban for many years and is now reaping what it sewn, much like Turkey.

Since you brought it up though, I rolled my eyes at the headlines of their PM claiming he was really gonna go after those guys now!
 
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:32 pm

We have a thread on Lahore, this one. But to put I bluntly I couldn't give a crap about incidents which happen far far away from where I live or have much interest in. I'm probably not alone in this opinion on this forum since bugger all people have responded to this thread or opened a thread on the subject. That said it's horrible that all these people died but it's not as if this sort of event is unprecedented in Pakistan, it's pretty commonplace.
 
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:50 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 4):
What good would that have done to point out they were Christians, and we are outraged!?

I don't know. What good would it have done for Obama to be back in the US while on travel, after the attacks in Belgium? Then underlying issue (which the OP is bringing forth) is why are we so outraged and sad about attacks in Paris and Brussels to the point where we HAVE to do something, yet the attacks in Turkey, Pakistan, and Iraq in the past few weeks are nothing to even mention?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 4):
That is not politically correct and the usual response would be demonstrations proclaiming Islam as the faith of peace.

I thought the right wing wants to get rid of political correctness...a certain war-mongering candidate is all for it actually.
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pvjin
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 8:57 pm

Hey, at least Facebook cares. Many Finnish people, including some I know got this message too:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/28/11...fety-check-pakistan-lahore-bombing

[Edited 2016-03-28 13:57:48]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
mham001
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 6):
I don't know. What good would it have done for Obama to be back in the US while on travel, after the attacks in Belgium? Then underlying issue (which the OP is bringing forth) is why are we so outraged and sad about attacks in Paris and Brussels to the point where we HAVE to do something, yet the attacks in Turkey, Pakistan, and Iraq in the past few weeks are nothing to even mention?

I don't know, what good would it have done to have Obama back? Did he do it?

Anyway, you've already gotten your answers. If you want more done, why don't YOU do something?
 
coolian2
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:15 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Hey, at least Facebook cares. Many Finnish people, including some I know got this message too:

http://www.theverge.com/2016/3/28/11...mbing

Did you even read the link?

Of course not, anything to justify your views.
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 9):
Did you even read the link?

Of course not, anything to justify your views.

Yes, did you? Basically Facebook system sent mobile notifications to random people who were nowhere near Pakistan by accident. I never implied they did it on purpose or to force the news upon random people.

Somebody should grow a sense of cynical humour.
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zckls04
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
We have a thread on Lahore, this one. But to put I bluntly I couldn't give a crap about incidents which happen far far away from where I live or have much interest in. I'm probably not alone in this opinion on this forum since bugger all people have responded to this thread or opened a thread on the subject. That said it's horrible that all these people died but it's not as if this sort of event is unprecedented in Pakistan, it's pretty commonplace.

I also don't think that's particularly unreasonable. We can't allow ourselves to absorb all the horror in the world; we'd never get anything done. We'd just sit around howling. Intellectually we know it's bad, but I don't think we should beat ourselves up because we reserve our empathy for those closest to us.
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
I'm still waiting for the outrage from the right wing media regarding the attack on Christians...

Conservatives only care about white Christians. Plenty of Black and Latino Christians right here in the USA that they don't give a damn about.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Appeasement never works.

When people are willing to blow themselves up, nothing works.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
We have a thread on Lahore, this one.

Not till I raised the topic.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
But to put I bluntly I couldn't give a crap about incidents which happen far far away from where I live or have much interest in. I'm probably not alone in this opinion on this forum since bugger all people have responded to this thread or opened a thread on the subject.

I said similar things at the end of my post, only less bluntly.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
That said it's horrible that all these people died but it's not as if this sort of event is unprecedented in Pakistan, it's pretty commonplace.

I think I would have stopped at "it's horrible that all these people died". To my discredit I didn't even offer a statement of sympathy, so you have one up on me.

I guess in my case when I see many of my fellow Americans not give a shit that a wacko wiped out an elementary school with assault weapons just because they have hard-ons for guns, this tragedy on the other side of the Earth isn't really making much of an impression on me.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 9:55 pm

I understand the motivation here but it all seems so silly, like one attack didn't get enough tweets versus the other. It misses all of the context, and more importantly, somehow absolves everyone from making any effort to change anything. I just don't think it's very constructive and distracts from the underlying issues.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
So Pakistan gets the "Wait a second, does that country even exist?" response, one step up from "Mneh"...

Pakistan has been authoring its own demise for a while now, culminating most recently in the slaughter of a hundred + children in Peshawar. I'm not saying the West has been perfect but Pakistan could hardly have done a worse job on regional relations.
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DocLightning
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:51 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
When people are willing to blow themselves up, nothing works.

Assisting them to blow themselves up before they blow others up works.  
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QFA380
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

Appeasement never works.

Isn't the standard response to islamic violence in the west that bigotry and alienation causes these innocent angels to blow themselves up and that we should to listen to their demands to ease their desire for murder?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
Conservatives only care about white Christians. Plenty of Black and Latino Christians right here in the USA that they don't give a damn about.

I care about non-Christian Australians well before I start caring about Christians in Pakistan. I personally follow the notion of concentric circles of identity and allegiance, people who hold fixed similarities to me are closer than those with chosen identities. Thus I also care about atheist Belgians getting blown up before Pakistani Christians too.
There is nothing wrong with caring about people similar to you more than caring about those very different. You wouldn't donate a kidney to a stranger in Burundi but you probably would to your cousin even if the Burundian had the same faith as you.
 
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:07 am

Which western Government previously funded the Taliban?


The scary thing is that our friends in Pakistan have the 3rd largest Nuclear capabilities. Whilst the US gets their panties in a twist over Iran, the elephant in the room is Pakistan.
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danvs
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:12 am

I always wonder how Middle East media reports on terrorism in the region, and how Middle East people react to them.
I mean, does an Iranian care more about what happened in Pakistan than in Belgium? Does Kuwaiti media (for instance) keep reporting the terrorist attacks in Beirut for a longer time than the Paris attacks?
If the answer to this question is yes, then it proves the old adage "News is local". If the answer is no, then cultural and geographical proximity are not full explanations.

I still remember when the Yemenia A310 crashed in Comoros in 2009, killing 153 people. It was quite interesting to see how no one here in A.net really cared to even speculate on what had happened. There were some people interested, but they were only a fraction of what we usually see in much smaller accidents happening north of the Equator. In fact, there were exactly 2 pages of comments in this forum (the 2nd page had only 51 comments).

I'm sure we could learn much more on how to prevent aviation accidents if indeed all accidents were duly investigated, no matter if it's in London or in Comoros. AFAIK, nothing has been learned of this tragic A310 accident where lives were lost in vain.
 
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Hey, at least Facebook cares. Many Finnish people, including some I know got this message too:

Interesting - my fiancee got one of those from FB (here in Los Angeles). We didn't know what it was all about.
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:58 am

I don't see the problem.
People feel concerned about what's close to them geographically or culturally, or about people they can hear or see, it's very human. The less you identify with somebody, the less you care for him. I don't say it's nice, but that's the way it is, it's why movie makers try to make people identify with the characters.
I'm sure people in Japan or Saudi Arabia don't care too much about attacks in Paris or Brussels, except from a tourist perspective.
 
Toni_
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:58 am

It shouldn't, but this really made me laugh hard, mainly because it's true! Only the Southeast Asian countries I'd expect to see in the "Ay, que triste" part too.

And why are the Cape Verde Islands never on these maps? It's even below "Mneh"? So "Mneh" the artist didn't even bother eh?   
 
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:28 pm

Quoting sebolino (Reply 19):
I don't see the problem.
People feel concerned about what's close to them geographically or culturally, or about people they can hear or see, it's very human. The less you identify with somebody, the less you care for him. I don't say it's nice, but that's the way it is,

Indeed, it isn't a problem as per my thread starter. It'd be nice if we all cared about all humans, but most of us don't, we tend to care about those close to us geographically and culturally.

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 20):
And why are the Cape Verde Islands never on these maps? It's even below "Mneh"? So "Mneh" the artist didn't even bother eh?

In modern times there's something good to be said for not being on anyone's map, no?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Toni_
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 12:52 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 21):
In modern times there's something good to be said for not being on anyone's map, no?

  
Truer words have never been spoken.

I've never been a big fan of social media, but I do have to admit that eventually it can only help making borders less important and bring us humans closer. Hopefully one day that map can get a little bit more yellow.
 
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:31 pm

One simple reason, I haven't been there, it's human nature to care more about places you have a direct connection to be it family links or travel experience. I lived on London, I used to frequent the underground there, so it is natural that I felt that more closely.than the other attacks. I visited Brussels, Kigali, Nairobi, Bangkok and Bogotá and have a mental picture of all of them so it is natural that be it genocide, mass shooting, bombing or beheading I care about them more than someone who doesn't know them personally, or indeed for somewhere I have not got a connection with, like Iraq or Tunisia

Apathy is a self-protection function to avoid being hurt repeatedly. The relevant thing is how often it happens and who is responsible. If 30 people a day get killed in Lahore/Kandahar/Baghdad by bombing we will all soon get jaded by daily carnage so we care less and less as a function over time - to the point where inherently violent societies like Pakistan, Iraq and Somalia where all life is cheap and their own cultural ideals are violent and vengeful nobody actually wants to care any more , These are cultures that kill apostates, homosexuals and "honour kill" their wives/daughters/nieces for being raped as part of daily life. If they refuse to change themselves to meet modern moral and ethical standards and don't positively assist others in crisis then they cannot expect sympathy and support as part of the global community in times of general human suffering such as natural disasters and terrorist attacks. .
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:08 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 23):
If 30 people a day get killed in Lahore/Kandahar/Baghdad by bombing we will all soon get jaded by daily carnage so we care less and less as a function over time

Indeed. I've seen this described as "empathy fatigue". We so many things that need our empathy all the time that no single one can rise above the noise level.

In the pre-Internet days we used to say things like "gee if I only knew you needed a few dollars for X I would give them to you" but now we get barraged with "gofundme" requests we just cruise past them all.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 23):
These are cultures that kill apostates, homosexuals and "honour kill" their wives/daughters/nieces for being raped as part of daily life.

The danger is that such things become seen as being "normal" so it becomes OK to ignore them. If it's OK to persecute X in country Y, it must be OK to do the same here, no?
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DocLightning
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:12 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 15):

Isn't the standard response to islamic violence in the west that bigotry and alienation causes these innocent angels to blow themselves up and that we should to listen to their demands to ease their desire for murder?

I believe you're conflating: "Let's not round all Muslims up and gas them" with appeasement.
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:20 pm

Amazing how these days your entire sense of humanity is measured by the fact of you talking about a tragedy on facebook or not.. (Or merely changing your profile picture for that matter)

Martijn

[Edited 2016-03-29 08:22:08]
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SoJo
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 5):
We have a thread on Lahore, this one. But to put I bluntly I couldn't give a crap about incidents which happen far far away from where I live or have much interest in. I'm probably not alone in this opinion on this forum since bugger all people have responded to this thread or opened a thread on the subject. That said it's horrible that all these people died but it's not as if this sort of event is unprecedented in Pakistan, it's pretty commonplace.

Here ladies and gentlemen is the truth in a (large) nutshell.
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pu
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:36 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
It means people don't value life equally

I don't think that's entirely true.

I argue it means we value life in accordance with the culture at hand.

In the Western World, aka the first world, the world of Europe and its descendents, the world where Christianity was the foundation of civilsation, certain rights like the respect for a single human life are important.

....in the non-Western World, aka those places where European/Christian culture is weak or never took hold, there is a much different view taken towards the value of a single human life and there are very few inherent rights admitted by governments or the people that create them.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
The danger is that such things become seen as being "normal" so it becomes OK to ignore them.

It is normal in some places to disallow free speech, practice sexism, live under a dictatorship and value human life not as highly as we do. A rape in Sweden is a big deal. In Pakistan or Afghanistan, is rape even a crime police investigate, especially if the criminal is a husband, brother, father???

That's fine - let them live as they like. It's not our job to convert them nor make a big news story when events happen in accordance with the values and governments their societies maintain.






Pu.
 
mham001
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:55 pm

Quoting danvs (Reply 17):
I always wonder how Middle East media reports on terrorism in the region, and how Middle East people react to them.
I mean, does an Iranian care more about what happened in Pakistan than in Belgium? Does Kuwaiti media (for instance) keep reporting the terrorist attacks in Beirut for a longer time than the Paris attacks?
If the answer to this question is yes, then it proves the old adage "News is local". If the answer is no, then cultural and geographical proximity are not full explanations.

This is a good point, so I went to http://www.pakistantimes.com/news/world/ and there is no immediate sign that Brussels was ever reported at all.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Brussels Vs Lahore

Tue Mar 29, 2016 11:25 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 24):
If it's OK to persecute X in country Y, it must be OK to do the same here, no?

No- that's a false equivalence. In countries of the civilised world we are as free as it is possible to be and we treasure that freedom because we have it to lose. If those things that happen daily in Pakistan or elsewhere happened here, or even if the state enforced their own religion here there would be an outcry that there would never be in these places because we have that right to speak freely and openly without fear. To get to this place we are in involved adaptation, assimilation of external ideas and cultures into our own over an extended period of time and constantly challenging ourselves with questioning reason not acceptance of blind faith for fear of reprisal for challenging the status quo. If a country doesn't go through that process then they will never get to where we are now.

If they don't care enough about their own lives to challenge their own belief system and way of life , then we shouldn't feel pressure to care on their behalf or get involved in their affairs to try and force the change - media coverage or not.If If they don't want it we should have the confidence to say we want nothing to do with you until you have enough self respect to change your own country's laws to benefit your own people. .

Quoting mham001 (Reply 29):
there is no immediate sign that Brussels was ever reported at all.

exactly. liberal wet wipes who blame everything on the on west and their foreign policy need to realise it is a two way street of media inattention. and in those countries it is because the government censures media to further their own cause so it is deliberate state sanctioned media silence.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.

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