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Aaron747
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Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Tue Mar 29, 2016 1:20 am

ICYMI, social media has been aflutter with the graphic video of an IDF soldier shooting a Palestinian kid in the head following detention after a knife attack on IDF soldiers in Hebron. No trial, no arrest, the soldier casually shoots him as he lies subdued on his back on the ground. The IDF has responded with the usual stuff about 'this shooting is against our values' blah blah - putting the blame on a 19 year-old soldier who had connections to right-wing groups, instead of the institution of Israeli politics that tacitly approves of these actions and has for a long time.

The question is - if enough people see this kind of thing, does it engender sufficient pressure on the Israeli government to change course? The current state of events is untenable, as explained well by Gideon Levy here:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.711025

To all those who think this is an exception and all those who are for putting off a peace agreement in favor or “managing the conflict” and those convinced that maybe one day we’ll have to end the occupation, but not now: This murder is the inevitable result. It’s the present and the future. It’s impossible to maintain the occupation without such murders, their number will only mount.

It will be impossible to continue ruling Hebron without daily executions; it will only be possible to hold the West Bank by committing more war crimes.


The video can be seen here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Bl9zAM5A4

[Edited 2016-03-28 18:23:37]
 
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seb146
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Tue Mar 29, 2016 5:50 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
if enough people see this kind of thing, does it engender sufficient pressure on the Israeli government to change course?

Short answer: no.

When Palestinians commit violence against Israel in the coming days or weeks, Israel will be the victim and oh, poor Israel, whatever shall they do and how dare those bad Palestinians do violent things.

There is no excuse on either side. Sometimes the retaliations are justified, sometimes they are not. Where does it end? When did it start? It is a paradox.
 
Acheron
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Tue Mar 29, 2016 6:17 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The question is - if enough people see this kind of thing, does it engender sufficient pressure on the Israeli government to change course?

No.

What will happen though is that the next time Israel is actually threatened and in danger of being wiped out, people will go "meh, shit happens".

You can only milk the holocaust and the antisemitism card so much until people become indiferent.
 
photopilot
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:26 pm

For far too long now every time Israeli troops commit an act of barbarity, anyone who dares to criticize is immediately labelled anti-Semitic.

For sure the well on that excuse is quickly running dry. The world is slowly waking up to this and will no longer be cowed by those accusations. They are seeing Israeli actions for what they are.... barbaric, illegal and any semblance of holding the moral high-ground is long gone.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Tue Mar 29, 2016 8:47 pm

Israel is governed by laws, this soldier will be put before a court and justice will be served... blah... blah...

It's already a total disaster, no matter how severely he is punished. In a place like this, these things just should not happen. Never. The best thing the IDF could do is feeding this young man to the sharks errr... handing the soldier over to a Palestinian court in order to calm things down - if such a court even exists, as Jewish settlers and soldiers are always tried by Israeli courts even if they commit a crime in the West Bank.

Any lenient treatment of these Israeli killers just fuels antisemitism, as it implies that being a Jew is akin to a Get Out Of Jail Free card.


David
 
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pvjin
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:12 pm

Well, I think people should just start treating the Israeli-Palestinian conflict similar to other conflicts in the Middle East. I mean, frankly nobody in the west gives a damn about Sunnis and Shias killing each other in Iraq, Yemen and such. I don't exactly see why we should give a damn about Israelis killing Palestinians, or Palestinians killing Israelis either.

In both cases it's just an endless cycle of hatred and revenge that can't be really stopped by an outside force through any practical means. Blaming just one side based on which side of the political spectrum you are isn't fixing anything either. I'm convinced Palestinians and Israelis are just unable to co-exist with each other peacefully from their own free will, just like Sunnis and Shias if there isn't a strong authoritarian ruler keeping religious extremists in check. (like Saddam in Iraq, or the Saudi royal family in KSA)

I think the best thing west can do is just withdraw support from all sides involved in the Middle East and see who wins, in the end it hardly matters who rules that plot of land.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:11 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
I think the best thing west can do is just withdraw support from all sides involved in the Middle East and see who wins, in the end it hardly matters who rules that plot of land.

While emotionally I'm inclined to agree because, as someone raised Jewish, I'm tired of seeing the Israeli government leave a steaming turd on Jewish values with each policy and action they take - I am not sure if that is the appropriate rebuke of radical Zionism. If anything, equivalency in Western support for Palestinian rights and further economic development aid would seem to have a better chance of net positive effects. If Israel can't advocate for those, maybe someone else can.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
The best thing the IDF could do is feeding this young man to the sharks errr... handing the soldier over to a Palestinian court in order to calm things down - if such a court even exists, as Jewish settlers and soldiers are always tried by Israeli courts even if they commit a crime in the West Bank.

Agreed, but as you point out, it'll never happen in a just manner. To any Israeli hawk, the reasons this murdered kid felt the need to attack soldiers with a knife are irrelevant - he was simply an animal to be put to slaughter, therefore the killing was justified. That's settlers' logic.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 12:45 am

Thanks for sharing. I saw this on Twitter but saw nay anything on American Media (surprise, surprise). My reactions were as follows.

- If this were Iran, it would be blasted on every Western Media outlet 24/7. Recall the woman shot during a protest there back in 09. All over the media.
- Clearly illegal IF, IF the person was still alive. I assume he was but its possible that he was not.
- Reactions. No one is reacting as if this were a strange incident (meaning it wasn't to the Israelis on the scene). That's the most damning thing along with the fact they offered no medical assistance despite 2 ambulances being right there.

The Israeli's aren't condemning it either. 57% of people polled thought it was legal. It was not. Shows how warped their society has become.

A knife attack also is not terrorism. Its simple murder.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:20 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 7):
- Clearly illegal IF, IF the person was still alive. I assume he was but its possible that he was not.

The full video can be found elsewhere, including on the B'tselem site and others. One can see his head moving in the minute or so before he was executed.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:42 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 7):
IF the person was still alive. I assume he was but its possible that he was not.

He was in the footage I saw.... waving his hands around.
But even if he wasn't, why put another bullet into someones who's already dead ???

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 7):
Shows how warped their society has become.

Been my opinion for a VERY long time!

He solider should be tried for cold blooded murder. Simple.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:38 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 6):
I'm tired of seeing the Israeli government leave a steaming turd on Jewish values with each policy and action they take

Got news for ya, homie:

Those are Jewish values. You may not like them, you may not agree with them, but that was a Jewish man killing a Palestinian man in cold blood for very Jewish reasons. In fact, it was drilled into my head over and over and over again in Sunday school: Supporting Israel is a Jewish value. And not only that, but I can for Torahaic and Talmudic justifications for what this soldier did. Shall I start with Lev. 26 7-8? " 7 You will pursue your enemies, and they will fall by the sword before you. 8 Five of you will chase a hundred, and a hundred of you will chase ten thousand, and your enemies will fall by the sword before you." I could go on and on and on.

Much as I hold all Muslims responsible when an atrocity is committed in the name of their religion for legitimizing and supporting religious beliefs that lead to such fanaticism, I hold all Jews responsible for Israel and its behavior. Jewish legitimization and support of Israel's Nazi-like behavior is responsible for this event. Religion is a choice and so...

...I choose not to participate. Either I'm a "real" Jew and I pray multiple times a day and keep all the laws or I'm just a "moderate" who picks and chooses which rules to follow and make it up as I go along. Neither one of those squares with me. I am, of course, an Ashkenazi Jew until the day I die; I cannot renounce my ethnicity, nor did I choose it. But the religion? I am not a Jew. Not for a long time now. Not as long as Jews are committing atrocities such as these.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:51 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 7):
A knife attack also is not terrorism. Its simple murder.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorism

Merriam-Webster defines terrorism as: "the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal"

Knife attacks are the exact definition of this.

Marc
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:58 am

Sorry Doc but I don't follow your logic.

On the one hand you say you hold all Jews responsible. Yet you also claim that you are not a Jew on the basis of your rejection of religion while you are a Jew by ethnicity. So you hold yourself responsible for this man's killing? Why?

You clearly don't support Judaism as a religion and you don't appear to support the State of Israel. There would be other Jews who also are neither religious nor uncritical supporters of Israel. Some may be actively involved in trying to bring about change in Israel and working towards a just and amicable solution. How could any of you prevented this man's death? In what way are they or you personally responsible for it?

Of course you may care about it, be horrified by it and denounce it but that is hardly the same as bearing responsibility for it. Does not your responsibility, as a human being and not specifically as an am/ am not Jew, extend to what you can do to prevent a wrong being done or correcting one that has. If either lies outside your power, how can it be your responsibility?

[Edited 2016-03-29 21:36:19]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:16 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
graphic video of an IDF soldier shooting a Palestinian kid in the head

You forget the fact that this "kid" is a terrorist. Caught red-handed in a knife attack of which there have been hundreds recently, attacking any innocents he can reach. I shed no tears for him. The summary execution was probably not the best way to go about it, but the world is certainly a better place without this "kid" in it.

In my opinion, such attackers should not be detained, if at all possible, but shot on the spot. Detention leads to arrest, which leads to trial and prison. All expensive. Screw them. Anyone running around trying to stab people like that needs a bullet to the head.

And by the way, if you look at my posts from 10-15 years ago, I was quite pro-Palestinian. No more. If you act like savages expect to be treated as savages.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:27 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 12):

On the one hand you say you hold all Jews responsible. Yet you also claim that you are not a Jew on the basis of your rejection of religion while you are a Jew by ethnicity. So you hold yourself responsible for this man's killing? Why?

Common misconception.

One can be a Jew by religion, which is a choice.

Then there are two ethnicities of Jew, Ashkenazi and Sephardic. These are genetic ethnicities with clear DNA markers. This is not a choice. It is unfortunate that the ethnicity and the religion have the same name. They do not mean the same thing. Most Ashkenazi Jews are religiously Jewish, but then again, most Italians are religiously Catholic. That doesn't mean that all Italians are religiously Catholic and that doesn't mean that all Ashkenazi Jews are religiously Jewish.

I could walk into a Catholic church tomorrow and convert to Catholicism, but I would still be an Ashkenazi Jew.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 12):

You clearly don't support Judaism as a religion and you don't appear to support the State of Israel. There would be other Jews who also are neither religious nor uncritical supporters of Israel. Some may be actively involved in trying to bring about change in Israel and working towards a just and amicable solution. How could any of you prevented this man's death? In what way are they or you personally responsible for it?

By legitimizing a religion that, when taken to its strictest interpretations, is a horrible, barbaric set of beliefs. When you decide that you are going to be a "Reform" Jew, you are saying that you are going to pick and choose what is and isn't Judaism and you are just going to conveniently ignore the ugly parts of it. You know, the parts where the gays and adulterers get stoned to death and enemies of the Jewish people die by the sword. It's a bunch of horsepiss, but it legitimizes those Haredim who do take it literally.

I hold all who choose to join a religion responsible for their collective actions. It doesn't matter whether they are "moderate."

Here's a few articles that examine the ideas of "moderate" religion and why "moderate" religion is utter horse piss:
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.co...do-moderate-christians-enable.html
http://www.atheistapologist.com/2010...t-i-dont-take-bible-literally.html
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/danthro...igious-open-the-door-to-extremism/

And this two minute, 33-second video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6ms92gGtM0
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
No more. If you act like savages expect to be treated as savages.

Of course those who have sympathy for the Palestinians might take you at your word. They would see this soldier acting like a savage and justify his being treated like one.

The rule of law and the criminal justice system may be slow and it may be expensive, but you lose any claim to moral superiority or legitimacy if you are so quick to dispense of them for the sake of expedience.

In other threads, for example gun threads, the US Constitution is bandied about. Curiously that very same Constitution can be ignored when it suits an argument. But if a civil society prides itself on having a Constitution, lets go beyond the usual "Our guns are protected by the Constitution" to another amendment.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.

I appreciate that Israel is not the US but it to has a Constitution and a system of legal process. It would be better to safeguard that process.
 
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:01 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):

Thank you for your reply.

I understand the difference between adherence to a religion and being of a particular ethnicity. You clearly indicated that you are not the former but can not avoid being the latter. In saying that you hold all Jews responsible, you did not make the qualification that the responsibility rests solely with religious Jews.

And how could one? Not all Jews who support Israel do so out of religious conviction. Some may do so because they were born in Israel and it is the only place they have ever known. Some do so because of a common history of persecution ranging from the massacre at Clifford's Tower in 1190, the Alhambra Decree of 1492, the pogroms under Tsarism through to the Shoah and subsequent expulsions from the MENA region. Never far from their minds could be the thought that events like those in the past could be repeated. The fact that from time to time there are attacks on Jews living in other countries reinforces that thought.

This could mean that both religious and non-religious Jews are responsible. But as I have suggested, not all are for the reasons I have given above. I simply do not hold with the idea of collective responsibility where the power to prevent or correct is absent. In my view, the notion of collective guilt is itself quasi-religious. Isn't the notion found in Tanakh with its stories of the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah?

[Edited 2016-03-29 22:08:45]
 
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seb146
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 6:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
In my opinion, such attackers should not be detained, if at all possible, but shot on the spot.

So any person with a knife is guilty just for holding a knife. How does that work, exactly?

I am tired of associating religion with violence. There are people who commit violence in the name of religion but not everyone who follows that religion is violent. I am also trying to figure out how Jew is the same as Palestinian. Palestinians are Christian and Muslim, from what I understand. And, when did being against senseless murder by Israel become anti-Semitic? Having an opinion that a government is wrong is very different than hating a religion just for existing.
 
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Boeing717200
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:13 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
I am tired of associating religion with violence. There are people who commit violence in the name of religion but not everyone who follows that religion is violent.

Oh my God, I'm agreeing with seb. Earth ending in 3.2....
 
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seb146
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:37 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 18):
Oh my God, I'm agreeing with seb. Earth ending in 3.2....

Don't worry. I have agreed with Dreadnought once and complimented BMI once and we are still here...  
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:39 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
Merriam-Webster defines terrorism as: "the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal"

Knife attacks are the exact definition of this.

Patently illogical. Soldiers are trained to handle and respond to violent acts. If you were talking about knife attacks on settlers, that might be another thing - but then, people are liable to get pissed when you build homes on land previously agreed isn't yours. FFS

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
In fact, it was drilled into my head over and over and over again in Sunday school: Supporting Israel is a Jewish value.

Mine was on Tuesdays and Thursdays, but yeah, no difference here. That all became moot when Amir pulled the trigger on Rabin.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
I am, of course, an Ashkenazi Jew until the day I die; I cannot renounce my ethnicity, nor did I choose it. But the religion? I am not a Jew. Not for a long time now. Not as long as Jews are committing atrocities such as these.

I basically fell out of it for similar reasons in my late teens. If your heart aint in it, there's no other way about it. I appreciate that my Ukrainian ancestors escaped pogroms and made a life for themselves in the States, but the temple I grew up with and my family have always been about education, self-reliance, and social awareness. To me, those are what Jewish values are...not the apartheid Israel has fabricated under a self-induced security crisis.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
The summary execution was probably not the best way to go about it, but the world is certainly a better place without this "kid" in it.

Oh boy...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
If you act like savages expect to be treated as savages.

I really wonder how you'd feel about all this if someone arbitrarily came into your parents' neighborhood, declared property lines were to be re-drawn, put down your parents' uprising against that, and then economically depressed them into economic second class-citizenry (a generous description, at that). So, in turn you grow up with that neighborhood surrounded by barbed wire, your parents' attendant neuroses brought on by that strife, and violence seemingly the only way to make your voice heard....then somewhere else in the world, someone decides to call you 'savage', just because, ya know, it seems like the right armchair description for the underdog. Pretty screwed up, Charles.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 8:53 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
In both cases it's just an endless cycle of hatred and revenge that can't be really stopped by an outside force through any practical means.

Biiiig difference to the other examples: Israel is a western country. Or tries to look like a western country. Culturally, they're "one of us", and that way we certainly have some leverage over Israel and the situation there.

In the past few days, I thought about the Cold War and how it could be applied the Palestine conflict. The USSR and the US signed the ABM treaty, which made it impossible for both countries to defend itself against a ICBM attack - especially against MIRV warheads.

If one party cannot defend itself easily, it is not interested in escalating a conflict. Hamas and Israel / Hizbollah and Israel should both have weapons against which there is no practical means of defense. As long as Hamas rockets do negligible damage (in the last war, six civilians killed on the Israeli side for several thousands of rockets fired), the Israeli side can do whatever it wants to do. Because they have jets, helicopters and artillery, they can engage at will, and strike every place in Gaza (or Lebanon) without risking any soldier of their own.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 12):
On the one hand you say you hold all Jews responsible.
Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 16):
And how could one? Not all Jews who support Israel do so out of religious conviction. Some may do so because they were born in Israel and it is the only place they have ever known.

This is something very important: All members of a group (here, the Jews) are, in fact, responsible. If the wrongdoers are not quickly and sternly ostracized, the they are not maintaining and polishing the public standing they have. It simply tells me that some wrongdoings are okay if you are a Jew in Israel. And then you wonder why people turn antisemitic, or why antisemitic propaganda falls on fertile soil...

Israel has gone a very long way to lose their brand value. Founding a state as Nazi victims, yes, they got MUCH sympathy (even if it was wrong, founding a state without securing the goodwill of the Arab population). All they do now is burn the credit they have left.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
In my opinion, such attackers should not be detained, if at all possible, but shot on the spot. Detention leads to arrest, which leads to trial and prison. All expensive. Screw them.

If Palestinians are allowed to do the same with Jewish settlers that set houses on fire and kill children, absolutely. Absolutely. We should propose this to Mr. Netanyahu after he gets back from his stroll in the Righteous Among the Nations memorial.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 15):
The rule of law and the criminal justice system may be slow and it may be expensive, but you lose any claim to moral superiority or legitimacy if you are so quick to dispense of them for the sake of expedience.

And more importantly, I'm very grateful that I live in a country where the law applies to everybody, not just to some of us.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Don't worry. I have agreed with Dreadnought once and complimented BMI once and we are still here...

Which means I'm already living my fourth a.nut life (out of 7 or 9...)...


David
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:09 pm

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 16):

I understand the difference between adherence to a religion and being of a particular ethnicity. You clearly indicated that you are not the former but can not avoid being the latter. In saying that you hold all Jews responsible, you did not make the qualification that the responsibility rests solely with religious Jews.

Responsibility implies that one has made decisions, at least to me.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 20):
To me, those are what Jewish values are...not the apartheid Israel has fabricated under a self-induced security crisis.

To you, yes. But not to them. And they are more numerous than we. Far more.
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:30 pm

Same shit different day in the sandpit - the region is fucked on both sides and they deserve each other... Given they are all religious they all want to die and go to paradise for eternity anyway so let's just allow them what they want ultimately.

to misquote Homer Simpson "Religion. The cause of, and the solution to all of lives problems"
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:59 pm

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 23):
Same shit different day in the sandpit - the region is fucked on both sides and they deserve each other... Given they are all religious they all want to die and go to paradise for eternity anyway so let's just allow them what they want ultimately.

Actually, the religious zealots are by far not the majority - on both sides of the "security wall". Fatah and its umbrella organization, PLO, are quite secular. It's rather Hamas (Sunni islamist) and Hezbollah (Shia islamist) that bring a religious tinge into the whole thing. Incidentally, Hamas grew strong because the PLO could not deliver on their promises - partly because of their own corruption, and partly because Israel is just not moving forward either. And the Hezbollah was created by Israel - they invaded Lebanon and created a vacuum where Hezbollah could thrive. When Israel strays into Lebanon, it's Hezbollah that are fighting them, instead of the regular Lebanese army which would budge immediately.

The Israeli side is very secular, too. The biggest problem there are the very orthodox and zealous fringe parties without which a coalition government is impossible. From electionresources.org.il:

"The parliament of the State of Israel, the Knesset, is composed of 120 members directly elected by universal adult suffrage for a four-year term of office. Knesset seats are filled by proportional representation (PR) in a single, countrywide electoral constituency. [...]

Knesset seats are distributed on a nationwide basis among party lists that pass a qualifying threshold, originally equal to one percent of the vote, and subsequently raised to 1.5% (in 1992), two percent (in 2006) and 3.25% (in 2014)."

Imagine the US Congress has only one chamber (either Senate or House), and the whole of the US is one election district. All parties are on a nationwide list, and you only need 3.25% of the nationwide vote in order to send one congressman to Washington. Say "Hi!" to Senator Vermin Supreme.

In the Israeli parliament, there are currently 10 parties, and the most powerful one (Likud) has 30 seats. The coalition parties have 61 seats, the opposition parties 59.

Without a coalition partner, you can't form a government, and so even the strongest party has to provide ministerial posts to the most extremist friends. So the Jewish Home is in favor of annexing a large part of the Palestinian territory, and the Shas party is against any freeze in settlement activity.

Many people think it's the PLO that is not moving forward on the road to piece. In truth, it's easier to get concessions from Mahmoud Abbas than from Benjamin Netanyahu...



David

[Edited 2016-03-30 07:10:43]
 
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pvjin
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 2:56 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 21):
Biiiig difference to the other examples: Israel is a western country. Or tries to look like a western country. Culturally, they're "one of us", and that way we certainly have some leverage over Israel and the situation there.

I suppose so, but to me it seems that right now the very worst human rights abusers and the least democratic countries tend to get the least attention from the general public towards their crimes as they aren't even expected to respect human rights and democracy. This conflicts with the general idea of every human life no matter where they're from being worth equally much.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:02 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):

Hi Marc - no you're totally incorrect. A knife attack is 100% not terrorism. It is US and Israel propaganda to label everything their enemies do as "terrorism" to justify their own actions by inducing fear. Here are some simple facts.

1) There is no universal definition of terrorism see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/terrorism
2) A knife attack isn't meant to cause fear. It's meant to kill. Period. See OJ Simpson.
3) The attack was against uniformed IDF army personnel. It was not against civilians.
4) Armed attacks against armies in an occupation zone are insurgent attacks by definition
5) The purpose of terrorism is to "terrorize" civilians. Not remove a hostile foreign army from a occupation zone.
6) Attempting to foment political change is subjective. Palestinians are trying to eject a foreign occupying power. This is not the same as abortion clinic bombings etc. and using violence to change a sovereign governments policy.

This is simply insurgent warfare. No different from Iraq or Vietnam at all. The infamous shoe bombers of Hanoi weren't terrorists. They were simply bombing a foreign army. Even the US Army didn't call them that.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Wed Mar 30, 2016 3:10 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 25):

That's why we rather mourn the victims of Brussels than those in Pakistan. It's human nature. We have to filter reality, otherwise our poor brains will be flooded by too many things to consider.

Considering democracy and human rights, I find it scary that in the 1970ies there were still dictatorships in Spain, Portugal and Greece. These are our neighbours. To me, it was also shocking to read that in 1961, in Paris, between 40 and 300 pro-Algerian protesters were transported to Nazi-era internment camps, and beaten, shot or drowned by the police, under the orders of police chief Maurice Papon (who earlier organized the transport of French Jews to the Nazi death camps): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961


David
 
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seb146
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:11 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 28):
the Beirut bombings in 1983, they were against uniformed military personnel. Would you not call them terrorism?

It is called terrorism when it suits people. Context.

When a foreign military sets up barracks and weapons and the home people send a "get out of my house" message, that is different than killing for killings sake. It is wrong, but context.

Why put a single person slashing a knife at a soldier in the same category as 9/11? Calling them both terrorism says they are both the same. They are clearly not. Context.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:30 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 28):
Tell ya what...you're 13-15. You're a kid. Talk to me when you actually know something.

And you're arguing this issue from an emotional, rather than substantive viewpoint based on logic and reason. Isn't that what kids actually do? Sheesh.

[Edited 2016-03-31 01:30:56]
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:07 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 28):
So...the Beirut bombings in 1983, they were against uniformed military personnel. Would you not call them terrorism?

Tell ya what...you're 13-15. You're a kid. Talk to me when you actually know something.

Marc

You literally chose the worst example of all time. That SPECIFIC incident, is the one used as the laughing stock of politicizing an event as terrorism.

When someone drives 20,000 lbs of explosives into a Barracks, they aren't trying to "scare" or terrorize you. THEY ARE TRYING TO F_CKING KILL YOU. The political "issue" is that they want you to lose the war and end the occupation.

They don't want to call it what it is, an insurgent act of war, because that has other consequences.

Post 9/11 is when Terrorism got labeled to everything. That should tell you a lot.

Even a 13 year old can figure it out.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 2:30 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 30):
And you're arguing this issue from an emotional, rather than substantive viewpoint based on logic and reason. Isn't that what kids actually do? Sheesh.

Speaking of emotional thinking. I am surprised that the shooting in Israel is described as "polarizing". You basically have a disabled combatant being executed without cause on film and yet the population apparently is split down the middle? It's pretty cut and dry.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/31/wo...r-solder-who-shot-palestinian.html

Could you imagine if a Palestinian police officer executed a disabled IDF soldier in Gaza on film? Gaza would be under an invasion by now.

If you look at both sides of this conflict, it's pretty clear neither side has an civility left. I can't fathom even with 2 separate states walled off from each other that there would be peace. I would not want to live near either group and I am sure many people in that region would share the same point of view. As a result, I think its a gordian knot. Its an unsolvable mess the US/UK has created essentially.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 5:13 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):

Hi Marc - no you're totally incorrect. A knife attack is 100% not terrorism. It is US and Israel propaganda to label everything their enemies do as "terrorism" to justify their own actions by inducing fear. Here are some simple facts.

1) There is no universal definition of terrorism see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/terrorism

I don't think you can necessarily say that a knife attack is 100% not terrorism. What if it was ten guys with knives running around randomly stabbing people at, say, Grand Central Terminal while screaming "Allahu Akbar"?

A convenient way I compartmentalize things is whether the attackers and victims are uniformed or civilian:

1) When a uniformed force attacks another uniformed force, it's war.
2) When a uniformed force attacks a civilian populace, it's war crimes.
3) When civilian force attacks a uniformed force, it's guerrilla warfare.
4) When a civilian force attacks a civilian populace, it's terrorism.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 28):
Tell ya what...you're 13-15. You're a kid. Talk to me when you actually know something.

Tell ya what: how about you attack the idea and not the poster? I'm 38 and I've seen a lot in my life. There are beliefs I've held since I was 13 that I still hold. The fact that I held them when I was 13 didn't invalidate them then and it doesn't invalidate them now.
 
sfbdude
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 8:55 pm

Since so many people seem to feel ok with authorities killing so called criminals after they've been subdued, why do people go crazy when it happens here? #Palestinianlivesmatter? #WearePalestine? No? None of that? Oh well....
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:07 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 28):
Talk to me when you actually know something.

What an arrogant thing to say, but we shouldn't be surprised to hear this coming from you I guess !

Personal attacks again....when will you learn ?

I thought you'd been banned several times perviously because of this behaviour.
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:09 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 28):
Tell ya what...you're 13-15.

The profile indicates that solarflyer22 joined in 2009. It is now 2016. Do you really believe that solarflyer started posting when he was just six years old?

The joining date is about the only reliable information we have from a poster's profile. All the rest, from name, place of residence, job description to age group is entirely voluntary information and can be just as fictional as the screen name. It is really silly to assume that just because it says 13-15 (the system default, maybe?) that the person actually is, anymore than because a flag indicates the USA or Vanuatu the person actually is a national or a resident.

Your own profile suggests that you are 26-35. I'm three decades older. Does that mean I am automatically that much wiser?
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:48 am

Quoting sfbdude (Reply 34):
#Palestinianlivesmatter? #WearePalestine? No? None of that? Oh well....

Can't say as I'm surprised. All of that is cheap bullshit that does nothing to change the status quo it just makes them feel better. They're not great moral leaders in the struggle against oppression and suffering, They are just angry people with no jobs to go to.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:41 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
3) When civilian force attacks a uniformed force, it's guerrilla warfare.
4) When a civilian force attacks a civilian populace, it's terrorism.

Those are pretty much correct Doc. Thats roughly the standard the DoD used in Vietnam in differentiating between NVA and VietCong attacks. That standard was basically thrown out by Bush Jr. administration.

Spree killing is its own category however which in the USA sadly is all too common. Be it with knives or guns.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 36):
The profile indicates that solarflyer22 joined in 2009. It is now 2016. Do you really believe that solarflyer started posting when he was just six years old?

Don't help them! Its amusing watching them struggle to figure out reality.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:19 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 30):
Even a 13 year old can figure it out.

Maybe a thirteen year-old who's never faced terrorism head on. I've lived through six terrorist attacks, including September 11. I've been to New York, and seen where the Towers once stood. I've been to the Pentagon, and seen the memorial, and also went past the Pentagon, and seen in the aftermath of 9/11 the Hummers with fully loaded machine guns pointed at the highway.

Kid, I've lived through a terrorist attack where my life was almost taken. I certainly don't need a child telling me - someone with a college degree and life experience - what is and is not a terrorist attack.

Marc

[Edited 2016-03-31 22:20:53]
 
Cadet985
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:30 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 34):

What an arrogant thing to say, but we shouldn't be surprised to hear this coming from you I guess !

Personal attacks again....when will you learn ?

I thought you'd been banned several times perviously because of this behaviour.

And I suppose you would let a thirteen-year-old try to impart knowledge on you? What knowledge or experience does a child have?

A child's opinion is meaningless.

If anyone is arrogant, it's you. Israel could be hit with a dirty bomb, yet the minute they'd go to retaliate, you would say they're wrong. Your hatred for Israel is astonishing. I can see just from your posts why one of my friends from Australia left the country when he converted to Judaism.

Marc
 
Cadet985
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
There are beliefs I've held since I was 13 that I still hold. The fact that I held them when I was 13 didn't invalidate them then and it doesn't invalidate them now.

That's nice. I don't believe in anything that I did when I was 13, except for everything I was taught about being an effective leader in the Civil Air Patrol. Other than that, I was a child and thought childish thoughts.

Marc
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:30 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 39):
If anyone is arrogant, it's you. Israel could be hit with a dirty bomb, yet the minute they'd go to retaliate, you would say they're wrong. Your hatred for Israel is astonishing. I can see just from your posts why one of my friends from Australia left the country when he converted to Judaism.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 38):
Maybe a thirteen year-old who's never faced terrorism head on. I've lived through six terrorist attacks, including September 11. I've been to New York, and seen where the Towers once stood. I've been to the Pentagon, and seen the memorial, and also went past the Pentagon, and seen in the aftermath of 9/11 the Hummers with fully loaded machine guns pointed at the highway.

FFS, if you're not even going to try to be serious, probably better to steer clear of this type of thread aye?
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:11 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
handing the soldier over to a Palestinian court in order to calm things down

Rent the movie "Breaker Morant" and give yourself a primer why you don't hand your troops over to another country for show trials.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
2) When a uniformed force attacks a civilian populace, it's war crimes.

And if that "civilian" is building the engine in your enemy's tank, growing the grain the enemy solder eats?

Fact is that total ware is going to involve everybody in society, Britian, France, Russia, Italy, Germany, China, Japan and a host of other places learned that the hard way in WWII.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
knife attack is 100% not terrorism.

It's all about the context.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
3) The attack was against uniformed IDF army personnel. It was not against civilians.

Are you saying no civilians have been knifed/murdered by Palestinians in the past year?

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 26):
5) The purpose of terrorism is to "terrorize" civilians. Not remove a hostile foreign army from a occupation zone.

Wanna bet?

Signed jointly by

The French Resistance to the German occupation
The Philippine Resistance to the Japanese occupation
The Continental Army under George Washington
The Boer's
The Norwegian Resistance to the German occupation
The Viet Cong
The Haganah(spelling?)
The Mujahadeen
The Taliban

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
Why put a single person slashing a knife at a soldier in the same category as 9/11? Calling them both terrorism says they are both the same. They are clearly not. Context.

All I see is a question of scale.

Especially when you consider this isn't the first Palestinian on Israeli attack. Not saying they are planned or coordinated but at some point a bunch of loons like the dead guy does make a pattern.
 
jfk69
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:41 am

He wanted to meet Allah, the soldier sped up the process.

He attacked people and he was killed. Move on people. He did not care about others lives so why should we care about his?

You want to harp on other Israeli items that are easily more disagreeable that is fine but this one is fairly stupid.
 
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seb146
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RE: Aftermath Of IDF Shooting In Hebron

Sun Apr 03, 2016 3:26 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 42):
this isn't the first Palestinian on Israeli attack.

Nor is this the first Israeli on Palestinian attack. Did the punishment fit the crime? Was the IDF soldier for certain this was the same person? But, none of that matters to supporters of Israel. Anyone suspected of being Palestinian are simply terrorists and must be dealt with accordingly.

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