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Acheron
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:25 pm

Wow, this must be a first for egomaniacal nutjobs

https://twitter.com/andrewyweller/status/715662344660115456

Basically a LED screens billboard truck in Washington DC with messages like:

"Truth + Peace = Erdogan"

"Thank you President Erdogan for Protecting the Syrian Refugees"

"We love President Erdogan"
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:35 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 49):
Not really, no. Both incite violence.

No, both do not. One makes a statement; the other a command. The speaker of the statement, while making an incendiary comment, is making a statement. He has no way to know how is statement is received and whether or not the listener will act upon it.

The speaker of the command expects his listeners to act upon his command. He intends violence.

That is the difference.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
Bnned organisations were e.g. the Communist Party of Germany, which in the 1960s fought for a Soviet system.

So, dissenting political parties were (are) outlawed?

"Thou shall have no government other than ours" ?
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:48 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 51):
No, both do not. One makes a statement; the other a command

I agree. The difference these days is that most of the modern world have no filter to process the nuances of language any longer.
 
us330
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:27 am

I don't know if anyone saw this, but Erdogan's bodyguards tried to get the D.C. cops to force the protesters (who were on public property and outside the security barrier) to leave when Erdogan was visiting the Brookings Institution. Then his staff got into a physical altercation with another journalist just outside the entrance, and got into a verbal shouting match with yet another one calling her "a PKK whore."

Oh, and to top things off, yet another member of his staff tried to eject a journalist from the conference room where the speech was taking place. Brookings' security supported the journalist and told the Turkish security person that the journalist was staying, and that Turkish security had no right to eject him.

This was all caught on video...
 
PanHAM
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:53 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 51):
"Thou shall have no government other than ours

complete bull. Germany is ruled by the law. The government must follow the law. When they pass a new law, that must be in line with the Constitution and the Constitutional Court judges whether a law is compatibel with the Basic law (Constiution).

The extreme left communist Party was dissolved by the court, the government cannot do that. Right now there is a case pending to ban the extreme right NPD. The case is open, decision will follow later this year. The is a democratic process which is similar in all western Democracies. With good reason, organisations that are acting against the law are unlawful. But only after the court has decided so in a fair Trial.

And finally to your opinion that Germany does not have "free speech", why then does the use of the N word fall under free speech in the USA?

Back to the topic, Erdogan. I was speechless when i heard last night that his Gorillas tried to Arrest US Reporters on US soil. Looks like Mr. Erdogan is a case for the Cuckoo's nest. I hope that the USA will teach Mr. Erdogan a lesson about Democracy.. .
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:17 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 54):
The extreme left communist Party was dissolved by the court,
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 54):
Right now there is a case pending to ban the extreme right NPD.

That's a nice free country you have there where opposition parties can be banned by the courts...that are an extension of the government.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 54):
And finally to your opinion that Germany does not have "free speech", why then does the use of the N word fall under free speech in the USA?

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Yes, the N-word is protected speech in the US. Is it not in Germany? And, if not, why?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 54):
The is a democratic process which is similar in all western Democracies.

Excluding the US, of course. Outlawing a political party is a scary thought. The McCarthyism of the 50's was stain enough.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:08 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 55):
That's a nice free country you have there where opposition parties can be banned by the courts...that are an extension of the government.

The constitutional court is not "an Extension pof the government". We enjoy the Division of powers, like any other western Democracy. Courts and judges are Independent.
A political Party cannot be banned by "Courts" but only by one court and that court has to follow strict procedures. The main criteria is that the party's goals and manifest are to overthrow the constitution. Has happened once so far in the past 67 years. .Might happen again this year but no one yet knows the outcome..

Maybe you have heard of impeachment which is a similar democratic process in the USA. That has nothing to do with McCarthy.

So, you can use the N word or any other slur and are not penalized ? Good. What about Nipple Gate? No one would raise an eyebrow over here, big scandal in the US. What about the censorship in the USA that certain periodicals cannot be forwareded by US Mail and offenders will be penalized? Censorship by beeping oiut certain words on TV and Radio? The land of the free in times of political correctnessß What a laugh.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:38 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 56):
A political Party cannot be banned by "Courts" but only by one court and that court has to follow strict procedures.

Yet, a political party can still be banned. That is acceptable to you? That a political viewpoint can be suppressed by government action? I assume that someone that continues to espouse the ideals of the banned party can be sanctioned by the government, to include prison?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 56):
Maybe you have heard of impeachment which is a similar democratic process in the USA

Impeachment is the process in which an elected or appointed official is removed from office. So?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 56):
What about Nipple Gate?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 56):
What about the censorship in the USA that certain periodicals cannot be forwareded by US Mail and offenders will be penalized?
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 56):
Censorship by beeping oiut certain words on TV and Radio? The land of the free in times of political correctnessß What a laugh.

Correct. That is censorship, but it is not political censorship. The people through their elected representatives have decided that certain things are unacceptable in our society. If the people decide they want those things, then the rules will change. It is a form of self-censorship. And, occasionally, those rules bump up against the Constitution and the Supreme Court makes a decision on the matter.
 
L-188
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:36 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 4):

Luckily enough Germany has managed to turn back and become a respected member of the civilized world. We could not have achieved that by allowing Nazi Emblems to be used by the few thousand block heads who still worship the "old" days. That's why These symbols and the Auschwitz lie are illegal.

To the extent that you do have blockheads that use that symbol I agree.

But the idea that if somebody brings/restores a vintage WWII German aircraft or builds a model of one and can't put authentic Luftwaffe markings of the period (which included the swastica as a tail flash" then I do have a problem with it.

Trying to limit hate speech is one thing, but denying it happened by prohibiting it's use is something else, particularly seventy odd years after the fact.
 
aloges
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:22 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 55):
the courts...that are an extension of the government.

Yikes... if that was the case, I'd have to wonder why our courts - and particularly the Constitutional Court - has so often ruled against the government.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 57):
Yet, a political party can still be banned.

It's happened twice in the history of the FRG: 1952 and 1956. One party was a successor to the NSDAP, the other was the German Communist Party. All other attempts, which are so rare that I know of only one, have failed to get past the courts.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 57):
That is acceptable to you?

At the level I've just described: yes. It's part of the concept we call "wehrhafte Demokratie", which translates to "fortified democracy". It's one of the lessons our politicians learned from the disaster that was the Weimar Republic and applied when they drafted the constitution of the FRG. Essentially, they decided that strong defences against those who sought to once again end democracy in Germany were needed, such as Nazis, Communists and the odd Royalist.

Based on our past, that is entirely justified. I can see how an American might have difficulty following that line of thought, since despite all the horrible things some of you have done, you've never had a totalitarian dictatorship in your country. The latest one in Germany only ended in 1990. The one prior to that was responsible for some of the worst atrocities in the history of mankind and the one still before that couldn't wait to start the war that was supposed to "end all wars".

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 57):
That a political viewpoint can be suppressed by government action?

It's not a political viewpoint suppressed by government action, it's a political organisation banned by court action. You may not see it, but the difference is huge.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 57):
I assume that someone that continues to espouse the ideals of the banned party can be sanctioned by the government, to include prison?

You assume wrongly.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:26 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 57):

Impeachment is the process in which an elected or appointed official is removed from office. So?

What's the difference impeaching, through a democratic process, an elected official that has violated the constitution and banning, through a similar democratic procedure, a Party whose program violates the constitution?
The hurdles are extremely high, I said it before, it happend once in 67 years and the outcome of the current case is open.
Should that Senate of the Constitutional Court finds that the NPD violates the constitution, the Party will be outlawed, their property confiscated and showing their enblems will become a punishable offence. Jail might be possible for second or third time offenders but as everyone knows, Germany is far from the jail Terms the USA knows.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 57):
Correct. That is censorship, but it is not political censorship. The people through their elected representatives have decided that

who makes the laws in your Country, John and Jane Doe and the church board or elected politicians? Each and every one of the items and many more are poltical censorship, probably based on public Consensus but that doesn't Change the fact that laws censor.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 58):
But the idea that if somebody brings/restores a vintage WWII German aircraft or builds a model of one and can't put authentic Luftwaffe markings of the period (which included the swastica as a tail flash" then I do have a problem with it.

Where do you draw the line? Germany had to make a complete turn-around to become a valid member of the civilized world community after 1945. Where do you draw the line? If you allow the Swastika on a Me109 you have to allow the swastika on a belt buckle or other Militaria as well. OTH Germany is not a Police state, we don't raid private homes to search for such symbols.
 
aloges
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:30 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 58):
But the idea that if somebody brings/restores a vintage WWII German aircraft or builds a model of one and can't put authentic Luftwaffe markings of the period (which included the swastica as a tail flash" then I do have a problem with it.

I'm not even sure it's actually illegal, but what would be the point of putting the swastika on a museum aircraft anyway? It's not like people don't understand that a German military aircraft from WW2 would have carried that mark.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 58):
Trying to limit hate speech is one thing, but denying it happened by prohibiting it's use is something else, particularly seventy odd years after the fact.

More yikes. You think the purpose of the restrictions on the use of Nazi sysmbols is to "deny it happened"?    Not the case:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
you can use them for scientific or educational purposes, e.g. in a history book. museum or in a movie, as long as Nazism isn't being glorified
 
aloges
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:32 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
it happend once in 67 years

Twice, actually, but that 100% increase is still over a base of 1.  
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 9:43 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
Yikes... if that was the case, I'd have to wonder why our courts - and particularly the Constitutional Court - has so often ruled against the government.

As it does here. Can the court compel action? Yes. Through what agency does the court compel action? The government. Can the court compel the government to take action against an entity? Yes. It follows that the court is an extension of the government.

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
It's not a political viewpoint suppressed by government action, it's a political organisation banned by court action.

Six one way, half-a-dozen another. It's the same thing.

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
You assume wrongly.

So, I can go to Germany and begin talking about bringing the Nazis back to power without repercussion?

If the government can not sanction me for my "banned speech" how can it be banned?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Should that Senate of the Constitutional Court finds that the NPD violates the constitution, the Party will be outlawed, their property confiscated and showing their enblems will become a punishable offence.

That is anathema to the concept of free speech. That a political party can be outlawed for speaking against the government or against the constitution smacks of intolerance and authoritarianism.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Each and every one of the items and many more are poltical censorship, probably based on public Consensus but that doesn't Change the fact that laws censor.

You are absolutely correct. Just about any law you can name takes away freedoms. That is the nature of law and government. The difference is that when a law is enacted, it is enacted by the people, through their elected officials. If the laws enacted don't comport with the will of the people, the elected officials are not re-elected, or in some cases recalled.

Now, if a law is enacted that violates The Constitution, the courts deal with it. Much like Germany, it's our separation of powers...checks and balances. The courts keep the people in check and the people keep the courts in check.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
OTH Germany is not a Police state, we don't raid private homes to search for such symbols.

But, if they are found, they are confiscated, right? What about a repeat offender? Is he eventually jailed? Does he, in essence, become a political prisoner?

Quoting aloges (Reply 61):
I'm not even sure it's actually illegal, but what would be the point of putting the swastika on a museum aircraft anyway? It's not like people don't understand that a German military aircraft from WW2 would have carried that mark.

Because it would be historically accurate. Because it needs to be understood by future generations. Because not doing it, is sanitizing history.

[Edited 2016-04-01 02:50:56]
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:24 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 63):
Now, if a law is enacted that violates The Constitution, the courts deal with it. Much like Germany, it's our separation of powers...checks and balances. The courts keep the people in check and the people keep the courts in check.

Poor checks and balances. A concrete case must first wind up at the SCOTUS, and then it doesn't review a lot of cases.

And we Swiss don't even have a constitutional court - which means that the parliament can enact a genocide, and no court can stop it. The constitution says that the federal court has to apply a) federal laws and b) laws voted on by the population. It can say that a federal law is not constitutional, but it has to apply it anyway. So, only municipal and state laws must conform to the constitution.

That's why I wish we could take over the German system.


David
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:41 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
I disagree. There is a difference between:

"All 'x' should be killed" and "Go kill all 'x'".
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 51):

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
Bnned organisations were e.g. the Communist Party of Germany, which in the 1960s fought for a Soviet system.

So, dissenting political parties were (are) outlawed?

"Thou shall have no government other than ours" ?

You are free to voice your dissent as long as it is within the democratc spectrum, e.g. you accept a change of government through elections and step back when you are voted out. Banned are movements, which call for a violent overthrow of the democratic system, let it be a coup d'etat (right wings) or a revoluntion (leftwings).

Jan
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:54 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 61):

I'm not even sure it's actually illegal, but what would be the point of putting the swastika on a museum aircraft anyway? It's not like people don't understand that a German military aircraft from WW2 would have carried that mark.

Actually, in 1934 (after Hindenburg's death) the Nazis declared their party flag (the Sawastika flag) to be the new state flag (instead of the black-red-gold of German democracy) and passed a law that any German aircraft (cutting edge technology at the time, and good for showing off) would have to have the Swastika flag pained on it's tail.

Hitler was the impersonation of the Nazi party and the Nazi party was Germany.

Jan
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:17 pm

While I can understand a reluctance to accepting the banning of political parties, it needs to be understood that what is being banned is not ideas. There is nothing illegal in a couple of fanatics reminiscing about the "good old days" under "Onkel Adje."

But political organisations are not a residential home for superannuated beer-pot thumpers. Nor are they polite debating societies. They not only "discuss" different issues but actively agitate for change. They are organisations with specific goals they seek to achieve through building active support, not just passive agreement.

So long as those goals are consistent with the betterment of society within democratic and constitutional means and they threaten neither democracy nor constitution, then there is no problem. If the stated aim of the organisation is the overthrow of democracy and the constitution and it uses unlawful means to achieve its goals, is it not right that the State intervene?

Is ISIS allowed to freely organise and and agitate for the overthrow of the US? Is al-Qaeda a legal entity in the US? If they are, the US is far more tolerant of dissenting views than anyone can imagine. But we already know that the US does proscribe political organisations by labelling them "terrorists". Are they wrong to do so?
 
L-188
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:04 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 61):

I'm not even sure it's actually illegal, but what would be the point of putting the swastika on a museum aircraft anyway? It's not like people don't understand that a German military aircraft from WW2 would have carried that mark.

I am not a big fan of sugarcoating history, and removing the national insigina from aircraft of the period counts as sugarcoating.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Where do you draw the line? Germany had to make a complete turn-around to become a valid member of the civilized world community after 1945. Where do you draw the line? If you allow the Swastika on a Me109 you have to allow the swastika on a belt buckle or other Militaria as well. OTH Germany is not a Police state, we don't raid private homes to search for such symbols

It is exactly a question of where to draw the line. And I would say the line in the 21st century needs to be in a different spot then it was in 1946.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 66):
Actually, in 1934 (after Hindenburg's death) the Nazis declared their party flag (the Sawastika flag) to be the new state flag (instead of the black-red-gold of German democracy) and passed a law that any German aircraft (cutting edge technology at the time, and good for showing off) would have to have the Swastika flag pained on it's tail.

That is pretty much the way I learned it, and why the Graf Zeppelin and the Hindenburg gained Swasitkas on their tails, from what I understand much to the dismay of the Zeppelin company.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 66):

Hitler was the impersonation of the Nazi party and the Nazi party was Germany.

Just like the Democrats was Obama to be the impersonation of the Democratic Pary and the Democratic party as the United States.

Your repeat history if you don't remember it.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 1:33 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 65):
You are free to voice your dissent as long as it is within the democratc spectrum,

Can a person, self-identified as a Nazi, run for office as a member of the Nazi Party...or some similar party?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:45 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 68):
Just like the Democrats was Obama to be the impersonation of the Democratic Pary and the Democratic party as the United States.

I call this BS (where is the flag if you need it). Next January Obama will step back and hand over he White House to whoever will win this autumn's election, even if it is Trump.

Jan
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 69):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 65):
You are free to voice your dissent as long as it is within the democratc spectrum,

Can a person, self-identified as a Nazi, run for office as a member of the Nazi Party...or some similar party?

As long as they pay at least lip service to the constitution and the democratic order (we hve borderline parties, like the NPD, which is currently undergoing the banning process. There the matter is to convince he constitutional court that they are secretly plotting to overthrow the constitutional system) . But you forget that the aim of the Nazis is to remove democracy and to replace it by a Führer, a person with dictatorial powers. Their aim is to get to power and never ever to relinquish it. The speak with Terry Pratchett, the defintion of democracy, one man, one vote, it "He is the man, he's got the vote".
For the Nazis democracy is bad in itself because they want no discussions (beside the racist [email protected] about white supremacy), they want to have ma of action in charge, who allows no dissent a all, with lists of people to be arrested as national enemies when they take over, just lik in 1933.

Jan
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 4:18 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
Their aim is to get to power and never ever to relinquish it.

That is the aim of every political party.


Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
, like the NPD, which is currently undergoing the banning process

And, that is what I can't wrap my mind around. A free nation banning a political party because that party disagrees with the current constitution.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:59 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 72):
And, that is what I can't wrap my mind around. A free nation banning a political party because that party disagrees with the current constitution.

How can you be a free state when you have no constitution that was voted for by the people. Germany only has laws that were made under guidance and supervision of allied occupation forces.
 
aloges
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:54 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 72):
A free nation banning a political party because that party disagrees with the current constitution.

Therein lies the crux: They don't disagree with the current constitution. They disagree with the rule of law as democracy knows it and that's why democracy is to be defended against them. People can say things that go against the constitution without fear of repercussions, in fact some do it all the time. What will land you in trouble is plotting to overthrow the system, which is basically a form of treason anyway.

Once again: We had a totalitarian dictatorship on our soil until 1990. You in the US did not. That kind of thing leaves a mark on a society.

[Edited 2016-04-02 06:02:16]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 2:16 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 69):
Can a person, self-identified as a Nazi, run for office as a member of the Nazi Party...or some similar party?

Yes, but he has to take into account that his Party will be banned if he plans a coup d'etat and turn Germany into a dictatorship again. . Germany has the best constitution the Country ever had, we want to Keep it that way.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 72):
And, that is what I can't wrap my mind around. A free nation banning a political party because that party disagrees with the current constitution.

I stayed away from Thois thread for a while because I had to bite into my desk reading such remarks

I have really tried with Patience to explain that a free Country Needs mechanism to stay free and that includes a supreme court ruling to Close a political Party.

Before I got back here I thought about what I forgot inmy arguments.

Aloges beat me with that:

Quoting aloges (Reply 74):
Once again: We had a totalitarian dictatorship on our soil until 1990. You in the US did not. That kind of thing leaves a mark on a society.

and he is dead right, except that we had 2 totalitarian dictarships, One between 1933 and 1945 and the second in East Germany between 1949 and 1989. We never ever want that again.

.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 6:47 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
and he is dead right, except that we had 2 totalitarian dictarships, One between 1933 and 1945 and the second in East Germany between 1949 and 1989. We never ever want that again.

...and then we have these wussies and pussies in the US that decry the Obama "tyranny". They've never seen a tyranny.


David
 
aloges
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Sat Apr 02, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
and he is dead right, except that we had 2 totalitarian dictarships

There were a few more IMHO, I was referring to the most recent one in that post.  
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:48 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 74):
Once again: We had a totalitarian dictatorship on our soil until 1990. You in the US did not. That kind of thing leaves a mark on a society.

And, now you have a different type of tyrrany. One where a person can not choose to identify with the political party of their choose, if that party is a mortal threat to the current government.

I understand that you (the German people) have lived under a dictator that was evil and caused millions upon millions of death. And, I don't necessarily disagree with your approach, but I point out that you are not truly a free society if you suppress other political parties, regardless of their aims.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
Yes, but he has to take into account that his Party will be banned if he plans a coup d'etat and turn Germany into a dictatorship again. . Germany has the best constitution the Country ever had, we want to Keep it that way.

Again, you are not free then.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 75):
I have really tried with Patience to explain that a free Country Needs mechanism to stay free and that includes a supreme court ruling to Close a political Party.

The mechanism is free and open elections with a free unbiased press.

Quoting aloges (Reply 74):
What will land you in trouble is plotting to overthrow the system, which is basically a form of treason anyway.

So, running on a platform of "changing the current system", i.e. bringing back fascism, is illegal? I believe that's a problem. Realistically, what you're telling me is that there are enough people in Germany that want to live under fascism, that the government has to suppress those people for fear that the will of the people become realized.
 
WearyDrover
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:38 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
if that party is a mortal threat to the current government.

Not just the current government but system of government. If Aloges (nothing personal, just an example) decides Merkel does not reflect his views, he is perfectly free to join another democratic party. He does not have the right to organise the destruction of democracy by disrupting other party meeting, attacking people in public, assassinations or planting bombs.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
a free unbiased press

Is there such a thing? And wouldn't a requirement that the press be "unbiased" also be a restriction on freedom of speech? If PanHam (again nothing personal, just an example) wishes to publish a paper stating that the CDU is the best guarantee of a free Germany, that would clearly be a bias, but is it necessarily false?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
, that the government has to suppress those people for fear that the will of the people become realized
Deciding on whether a party or organisation should be legal is not taken lightly. It is made against a thorough investigation into not just what its goals are but also what it actually does. Is there a single country in the West where recruiting members and raising money for ISIS is legal?

One general point: anyone who lives in a civil society is never completely free. No-one can choose to do whatever they like but has to accept compromises and restrictions for the benefit of all. We have restrictions on where you can walk, what you can do, where you can build, what you can grow. That doesn't mean that those societies aren't free.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:52 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 79):
He does not have the right to organise the destruction of democracy by disrupting other party meeting, attacking people in public, assassinations or planting bombs.

Agreed, but why isn't he allowed to run as a fascist? Or, are you claiming all fascists are violent? What about a person that believes in fascism as a suitable government alternative to democracy?

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 79):
Is there such a thing?

Let me elaborate. A free, unbiased press, too me, is a press unencumbered by the government.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 79):
Deciding on whether a party or organisation should be legal is not taken lightly.

And, once again, the thought of making a political party illegal is anathema in a free society. Regardless of their goals, so long as their methods remain within the law.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 79):
Is there a single country in the West where recruiting members and raising money for ISIS is legal?

They are a terrorist organization, not a political party seeking representation in the government. Let's look at Hamas. They have a militant arm, that should be illegal and surpressed, but they have a political arm, with valid, political aims. In a free society, they should be treated seperatly. Of course, if one person is active in both wings, that person is subject to prosecution or attack by the government.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 79):
One general point: anyone who lives in a civil society is never completely free. No-one can choose to do whatever they like but has to accept compromises and restrictions for the benefit of all. We have restrictions on where you can walk, what you can do, where you can build, what you can grow. That doesn't mean that those societies aren't free.

Of course. But, as I noted earlier, just about every law, every regulation, is an abridgment of our freedoms. Now, to live in a civil society we must subvert some of our freedoms in order to live peacefully and safely. I can not steal from someone to suit my needs. I can not kill someone "just because". In return for my abdicating certain freedoms, the government builds and maintains a social structure. I get it.

But, I'm a freedom of speech absolutist. So long as my speech (actions) do not infringe on your rights (and, you do not have a right to not be offended) I am allowed to participate in that speech without government interference. That includes anti-government, anti-Constitution, anarchist, pro-whatever speech that can be mustered.
 
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:38 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 80):
and, you do not have a right to not be offended

Actually, I do. If a person makes a deliberately insulting, slanderous or libellous comment I do have the right to be offended and in some circumstances may seek redress at law. Of course, not every occasion of someone being offended gives rise to any claim in either civil or criminal courts.

Oddly enough, denying the right to be offended could be seen as a curtailment of freedom of speech. Just as it is one person's right to express extreme or scandalous opinions if he so chooses, it is every other person's right to be disgusted, outraged by or indifferent to those views as they so choose and express those feelings.

Beyond that, being offended is what has prompted many desires for political change. Colonists in Boston were offended by having to pay taxes but having little say in government. We all know where that led.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:43 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 81):
Actually, I do. If a person makes a deliberately insulting, slanderous or libellous comment I do have the right to be offended and in some circumstances may seek redress at law

Yes, that's been discussed. That's a civil tort, not a criminal one. The government simply acts as arbitor, through the court system. The suit will, typically, be brought by a private party.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 81):
Oddly enough, denying the right to be offended could be seen as a curtailment of freedom of speech.

As a non-government actor, I can deny you any and all of your First, Second, And Fourth Amendment rights on property I control. As, you can similarly do to me.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 81):
Colonists in Boston were offended by having to pay taxes but having little say in government. We all know where that led.

Correct. But, they acted outside the law.
 
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:06 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
So, running on a platform of "changing the current system", i.e. bringing back fascism, is illegal? I believe that's a problem. Realistically, what you're telling me is that there are enough people in Germany that want to live under fascism, that the government has to suppress those people for fear that the will of the people become realized.

Nope, they are a minority. But they are willing to use violence to get their "one man, one vote, one time" agenda.
Some of the leaders are quite welthy and use this wealth to push through their agenda, of glorifying the Nazi past of Germany, but these people are legally savvy enough, not to cross the line to illegality in public. But they entice more stupid followers to use violence and terror to intimidate others. There exists lists of people to arrest and execute as "traitors to the people" after they gain power.

The Nazis are quite similar to the Salafists, where the preachers use ambiguos language in public and never condome violence where they can be overheard, but make stupid followers blow themselves up.

You make the mistake of equating Nazis, Communists and Islamists with any other political movement, which will accept democracy and majority votes. These groups think that they have the absolute truth, even though they are a minority, and try to push it through, making sure hat there will be no other political movement. The border between the political party and terrorism is fluid.

PanHam, Aloges and myself are pretty much on opposite ends of the democratic Germam political spectrum, PanHam financially conservative (he should be as an entrepreneur), but socially quite liberal, me following the centrist (Helmut Schmidt) wing of the Social Democrats (as I see them representing my interests as an employed worker best) and Aloges a bit further to the left than me, more towards the Greens. Still we can discuss things in a polite manner (and may do it over a beer some day) and will respect democraic decisions.
You cannot do this with any of the extremists, as they will see you as an enemy, who has to be destroyed.

Jan
 
lewis
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:39 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Thread starter):
Mr. Erdogan thinks that his power extends into Europe

Considering that. so far, Mr Erdogan says jump and the rest of Europe reinacts Cirque Du Soleil acts, why wouldn't he think that his power extends that far?
 
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:41 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
Again, you are not free then.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
The mechanism is free and open elections with a free unbiased press.

Nope, we are not free, we are ruled by the law. You cannot kill or otherwise harm People, you cannot steal, you cannot do things that generally harm other People.
In short, we have one of the best living conditions of all countrys worldwide.

We enjoy frree, open and unbiased elections. Each citizen receives an Invitation to vote in the mail, on European elections even citizens of the other 27 can vote in Germany, same for local elections. No bias of race or Color.

Everyone can start a Party, once he has a certain number of signatures and qualifies to the criteria written in the law.

What you mean is anarchy, that's what they currently have in Syria, parts of Libya and Iraq.

.

Quoting lewis (Reply 84):
Considering that. so far, Mr Erdogan says jump and the rest of Europe reinacts Cirque Du Soleil acts, why wouldn't he think that his power

Yes, that's what all dictators think. At the end of the day they are either in jail or dead.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 08, 2016 11:57 am

http://www.dw.com/en/rammstein-sues-...many-over-indexed-album/a-19164557

Here's an interesting case regarding censorship. I really didn't know that the EU's largest economy lacks freedom of speech so badly. Erdogan's Turkey clearly fits in just fine.
 
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:11 pm

When you read the Story you will find that the high administrative court has decided to take this Album off the index. It could be sold before, but only to People over the Age of 18.

The government does not censor anyway, there is an Independent board that decides what comes on the index, pornography for instance. They also classify movies starting from General Admission, 12, 16 and 18 years. It is self censorship of the Entertainment industry. Normal case in civilized countries.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 87):

Applying age limits to music is total nonsense.
 
aloges
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RE: Mr Erdogan Wants To Control All Media

Fri Apr 08, 2016 5:08 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 78):
And, now you have a different type of tyrrany.

If you truly believe that Germans live in fear of "the Man" coming 'round to get them for thought crimes, which you apparently do, then your perception of this country is extremely far from the reality.

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