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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 08, 2016 9:52 pm

Since the conversation turned this way and this happened to pop into my feed, I took the time and effort to switch/cut/switch/paste in the iPad dance:

http://www.nraila.org/articles/20160...g-firearm-offenders-on-the-streets

If you can get passed the editorializing that is common at NRA/ILA, you can see one of the problems.

[Edited 2016-04-08 14:53:23]
 
Max Q
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 2:37 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 88):
I am completely ignored every time I say I understand the logical use for guns but I gotta say:

Read the first thirteen words of the Second Amendment.

Also, why is it always black-and-white with you gun nuts? Why are you ammosexuals never willing to even listen to any other opinions? Not enact every single word but just listen? So many of us want better controls on how licences are given. More like car registrations. Make sure people know what they are doing. Why is that not even an option? It seems to me that if a person is a part of a militia, they should know and understand what and how and why about their guns. So, it seems logical they should pass an in-depth test about guns and gun safety. Why is that so offensive? Why is that not even an option? Why is the only option to own as many guns as possible?

Very well said, gun nuts don't listen, their guns are more important to them than (other's) lives.
 
L-188
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:28 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 99):

Yes, they can not own a firearm. If they answered 'No' to any of questions 11b-k, but should have answered 'yes', they have falsified the document. A 'yes' answer would have disqualified them from owning a firearm under federal law.
If someone answers 'No', but the NICS background check comes back with a 'Yes' in there, that person has falsified the document and should be prosecuted, or at least investigated, under federal law.

And both the Clinton and Obama administrations have been particularly bad about following up with legal actions against those that do falsify these documents. It helps their gun-grabbing position if their is a lot of shooting incidents, which is why they actively encourage them by not enforcing the laws that are already on the books.
 
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seb146
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:40 am

In the past week, there were shootings in Richmond, VA and San Antonio, TX. Where was the "good guy with a gun" to stop the murder before it started?

This fallacy needs to stop. The "good guy with a gun" does not make sense in a real world situation.
 
WIederling
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:21 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 29):
So he/she can protect himself/herself - and possibly you as well - from the crazies in this world. There you have it. Be thankful for the people out there taking on that responsibility and helping keep you safe.

There is a much higher chance of being shot by one of those "valiant protectors"
than being shot by a perpetrator as designated target.

( By accident, as innocent bystander, erroneous target of valiance or just pure hybris. .. "I have gun. I am hero and can do no wrong.")
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:12 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 104):
There is a much higher chance of being shot by one of those "valiant protectors"
than being shot by a perpetrator as designated target

Reference? How many innocent bystanders have been shot by CCW holders?
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:19 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
In the past week, there were shootings in Richmond, VA and San Antonio, TX.

1. The San Antonio shooting was on an Air Force Base. It is a felony for a civilian to carry a gun on a Federal installation.
2. The Richmond shooting was at the bus station. It is a felony to carry a gun on a bus. The Feds treat it like it's a common carrier, just like an airline.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:20 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 104):
There is a much higher chance of being shot by one of those "valiant protectors"
than being shot by a perpetrator as designated target.

The estimate is that there are 350,000,000 firearms in non government hands. Something like 35% of all households have guns. There are approximately 10,000,000 CCW permit holders in the US (that number does not include Alaska, Arizona, Kansas, Vermont and Maine, where any law-abiding citizen eligible to possess a firearm may carry concealed).

With those numbers, you'd think that there would be a whole hell of a lot more people killed or injured by firearms (intentionally, negligently or accidental).

Quoting seb146 (Reply 103):
In the past week, there were shootings in Richmond, VA and San Antonio, TX. Where was the "good guy with a gun" to stop the murder before it started?

There happened to not be a CCW holder there, or he/she chose not to act. So what?
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 1:36 pm

Another thing that many seem not to realize--having a CCW license does NOT give you any more legal authority than anyone else. It merely gives you the authority to carry a handgun. You can't arrest anyone, you're not a "junior cop" and you're not Superman.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:14 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 108):
Another thing that many seem not to realize-

My favorite is that the hoplophobes* out there think that 'stand-your-ground' and 'castle laws' somehow translate into a license to kill, without repercussions.

See what I did there? I added "phobe" to a Greek word/prefix. That means anyone who has a fear of arms is now a bigot.


* Not my word. Coined by Jeff Cooper.

KBJCpilot, seriously, if you want more info on a concealed carry firearm, or about the lifestyle, just IM or post here. I've owned firearms since 1987, had a CCDW permit since 1996, and have carried a gun, just about full-time since 2010, or so. Others and I can easily weed through the chaff thrown up by the anti-Second Amendment types.
 
Max Q
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:35 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 107):
With those numbers, you'd think that there would be a whole hell of a lot more people killed or injured by firearms (intentionally, negligently or accidental).

There's more than enough.



Seriously, you consider our current gun death rate acceptable ?
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 11:17 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 110):
eriously, you consider our current gun death rate acceptable ?

Not really. Just like I don't consider the current car death rate acceptable. Or, the current knife death rate acceptable. Just like I don't find our current revolving door of justice acceptable.

Arms possession is a constitutionally protected right. It is probably the most restrictively regulated right there is. How about the laws on the books get enforced, before we right new ones that only the law-abiding will follow, or worse, make criminals out of the law-abiding?
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:06 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 111):
Not really. Just like I don't consider the current car death rate acceptable. Or, the current knife death rate acceptable. Just like I don't find our current revolving door of justice acceptable.

The difference of course being that something is done to mitigate deaths from those whereas little is done to reduce the gun death rate. Cars/driving are regulated and get safer every year.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 111):
Arms possession is a constitutionally protected right. It is probably the most restrictively regulated right there is. How about the laws on the books get enforced, before we right new ones that only the law-abiding will follow, or worse, make criminals out of the law-abiding?

Well the constitution actually says that a well regulated militia's right to own guns won't be infringed, but I don't see a militia or regulation. Even if you consider 'well regulated' to mean just an organised/disciplined population capable of fighting, I see nothing in that regard.

As for the law-abiding part, they don't stop bad things happening. But there's plenty of evidence that regulating guns will lower the death rate, you just need to look at any country that's developed and not the USA.
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:23 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 110):
Seriously, you consider our current gun death rate acceptable ?

What's the deathrate from legally owned guns?
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:46 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 113):
What's the deathrate from legally owned guns?

Around 11,000, because all firearms are legal in the USA. Duh!
 
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fallap
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:31 pm

No M9 Beretta?   Mamma Mia!
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:20 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 114):
Around 11,000, because all firearms are legal in the USA. Duh!

Duh, no!
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 2:45 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 116):
Duh, no!

That's unconstitutional then.

And unAmerican. Dammit I want my guns!
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 112):
Well the constitution actually says that a well regulated militia's right to own guns won't be infringed,

No, it says the "right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" . The people, not the state. Again, in Heller, The Court found that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right, unrelated to service in any militia.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 112):
As for the law-abiding part, they don't stop bad things happening.

Once again, take a moment and just look for news articles about armed citizens defending themselves and others. Really, Armed Citizen is a great place to start, if you really want to see the truth.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 114):
Around 11,000, because all firearms are legal in the USA. Duh!

Ummm, the question was:

Quoting johns624 (Reply 113):
What's the deathrate from legally owned guns?

Not from legal guns.

How many lawful gun owners have committed murder, or used their lawfully owned guns in a crime, as opposed to unlawful gun owners?

Quoting fallap (Reply 115):
No M9 Beretta?

For concealed carry? No thank you.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 117):
And unAmerican. Dammit I want my guns!

Then, assuming you meet federal and state requirements to own a firearm, go buy one.

If you want some advice on type, just ask.

[Edited 2016-04-10 08:11:06]
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:49 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 118):
No, it says the "right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed" . The people, not the state. Again, in Heller, The Court found that the right to keep and bear arms was an individual right, unrelated to service in any militia.

'A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'

You've ignored the first part. If the first part wasn't important it wouldn't be there. If the intention was to allow anyone to own a gun it wouldn't mention a militia or regulation.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 118):
Once again, take a moment and just look for news articles about armed citizens defending themselves and others. Really, Armed Citizen is a great place to start, if you really want to see the truth.

The majority of gun deaths aren't mass shootings, it's family/friend-related or suicide. But since you mention it, how come in the UK where we have regulated guns we've only had 1 mass shooting in my lifetime and our death rate from guns is 50 times lower despite having inept politicians? People may stop mass shootings with their guns, but since countries with regulations have very few or no mass shootings it's safe to say that regulating guns prevents mass shooting more than having more people armed.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 118):
How many lawful gun owners have committed murder, or used their lawfully owned guns in a crime, as opposed to unlawful gun owners?

The question was 'how many deaths from legally owned guns'. Legally owned doesn't mean the owner isn't a criminal, only that the gun itself is legally owned.

The problem isn't lawful gun owners however. But that's not what laws are designed to do. Murder is illegal, but that law is for people who want to murder rather than people who don't. Law abiding citizens are not a worry, which is why you make laws and enforce the laws for people that break them.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 118):
If you want some advice on type, just ask.

I'm not happy with my University and my ego has been bruised. Any advice?
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
'A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.'

You've ignored the first part. If the first part wasn't important it wouldn't be there. If the intention was to allow anyone to own a gun it wouldn't mention a militia or regulation.

Why would the government need to give a right to itself? Why would all the other amendments of the Bill of Rights concern individual rights but this one pertain to the government?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
it's family/friend-related or suicide

Only if you consider "friends" as drug dealing acquaintances...
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:47 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 120):
Why would the government need to give a right to itself? Why would all the other amendments of the Bill of Rights concern individual rights but this one pertain to the government?

I don't know, maybe as security? It was still a young state when the constitution was made, and the constitution was made for its time and the future as well. But that is what it says, and you can't just pick and choose what parts you like.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 120):
Only if you consider "friends" as drug dealing acquaintances...

We have those people here as well, but we still don't have mass shootings anymore and our gun death rate is still 50 times lower.
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:06 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 121):
We have those people here as well, but we still don't have mass shootings anymore and our gun death rate is still 50 times lower.

There you go, changing the argument. I was merely stating that a great percentage of murders were between drug dealers, since you implied that many shootings were between "friends".

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 121):
I don't know, maybe as security? It was still a young state when the constitution was made

Immaterial. The government is going to make sure that they couldn't take guns away from themselves? Get real.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:43 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 122):
There you go, changing the argument.

I learned from the best.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 122):
I was merely stating that a great percentage of murders were between drug dealers, since you implied that many shootings were between "friends".

A lot of the murders are between friends, possibly not as many as between gangs/drug related, but a lot. And guess what: it's not a problem in any other developed country with regulations.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 122):
Immaterial.

It kind of isn't.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 122):
The government is going to make sure that they couldn't take guns away from themselves? Get real.

A militia is generally a fighting force made up of normal people, i.e. not uniformed. I would have said the idea behind the 2nd amendment was that the government wouldn't take arms from militias because those militias were needed for defence of the country, but the militias weren't necessarily under (complete) control of the government. The 2nd amendment isn't the govt giving a right to itself, a lot of the constitution sets out what the government cannot do/infringe.

For example this is the 1st Amendment:

'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances'.

It says what the government cannot do, it cannot make a law respecting an establishment of religion, it cannot prohibit free speech, it cannot prohibit people assembling peacefully, it cannot prohibit people petitioning the govt.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:07 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
You've ignored the first part. If the first part wasn't important it wouldn't be there.

The majority of The United States Supreme Court disagrees with you in Heller. Read the decision if you don't believe me.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
The majority of gun deaths aren't mass shootings

Correct. Yet, the hoplophobic, anti-gun, anti-Second Amendment nuts come out of the woodwork when one occurs, even when they are directly related to terrorism, as the last 2 mass-media events were.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
Legally owned doesn't mean the owner isn't a criminal, only that the gun itself is legally owned.

You want to play semantics? A gun can not be legally owned or possessed by someone prohibited by doing so under 18USC922(g). It is a felony to do so. Therefore, if you don't qualify under the law, you are in illegal possession of a firearm. The firearm is not legally owned or possessed.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
The problem isn't lawful gun owners however.

Correct, so why should the government make laws that make it prohibitive for law-abiding citizens to exercise their Second Amendment rights?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
I'm not happy with my University and my ego has been bruised. Any advice?

Yup, take it up with the Provost.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 123):
The 2nd amendment isn't the govt giving a right to itself, a lot of the constitution sets out what the government cannot do/infringe.

I couldn't have written that better myself. The US Constitution, especially The Bill of Rights, is a restraint on government, not the people. The Second Amendment was not written to grant the government power, it was to deny the government power. "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".

That statement is a restraint of government.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:17 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):
The majority of The United States Supreme Court disagrees with you in Heller. Read the decision if you don't believe me.

I wonder how much they got paid?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):
Correct. Yet, the hoplophobic, anti-gun, anti-Second Amendment nuts come out of the woodwork when one occurs, even when they are directly related to terrorism, as the last 2 mass-media events were.

It's just closer to home. A natural human instinct, like how neither you nor I care as much about what happens in Kiribati than what happens in the USA or Europe.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):
You want to play semantics? A gun can not be legally owned or possessed by someone prohibited by doing so under 18USC922(g). It is a felony to do so. Therefore, if you don't qualify under the law, you are in illegal possession of a firearm. The firearm is not legally owned or possessed.

What if a gun is legally owned, the owner is legal but then (s)he kills someone? I imagine there are several cases like that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):
Correct, so why should the government make laws that make it prohibitive for law-abiding citizens to exercise their Second Amendment rights?

Because law-abiding people have to be inconvenienced to catch the nutters. I'm not a terrorist, but I still get scanned as if I am when I travel, even though 'white atheist bloke on his 4th visit to Gibraltar this year' is not high on the list of potential suspects.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 124):
I couldn't have written that better myself. The US Constitution, especially The Bill of Rights, is a restraint on government, not the people. The Second Amendment was not written to grant the government power, it was to deny the government power. "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed".

That statement is a restraint of government.

But that's only part of the statement. You can't just ignore the first part. You can't, if it is there, it is important. And it says well regulated militia, which could mean simply that an organised/disciplined militia won't have its guns taken away, or the govt will train every citizen of the USA to fight if necessary. Neither of those happen.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:44 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 125):
I wonder how much they got paid?

 
Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 125):
What if a gun is legally owned, the owner is legal but then (s)he kills someone? I imagine there are several cases like that.

Then, that person gets arrested, is prosecuted and goes to prison, if convicted. Just like when any other crime, including murder, is committed. It's called the criminal justice system. It supposed to punish those that have committed an act that society has found unsavory or immoral.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 125):
Because law-abiding people have to be inconvenienced to catch the nutters.

The question is, how much do you inconvenience a law-abiding citizen trying to exercise his constitutionally protected rights? Remember, the right to possess a firearm is already the most restricted constitutional right we have.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 125):
But that's only part of the statement.

Maybe this is why you're unhappy at university: professors need to keep repeating themselves for you to gain understanding.

Let me help you...again.

District of Columbia et al. v. Heller

Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.


Now, there is more, but I'm addressing your apparent inability to understand that the majority court has deemed that The Second Amendment is an individual right that is unconnected with service in any militia.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 6:57 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
Then, that person gets arrested, is prosecuted and goes to prison, if convicted. Just like when any other crime, including murder, is committed. It's called the criminal justice system. It supposed to punish those that have committed an act that society has found unsavory or immoral.

If such a stance was taken on terrorism then terrorist attacks would be more common, you can do something to stop these people, it's not like they're being asked for virgin's blood. If someone is clearly going to do harm, you stop them. It should be that way with guns.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
The question is, how much do you inconvenience a law-abiding citizen trying to exercise his constitutionally protected rights? Remember, the right to possess a firearm is already the most restricted constitutional right we have.

Significantly less time and effort than it takes to operate a car legally.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 126):
Now, there is more, but I'm addressing your apparent inability to understand that the majority court has deemed that The Second Amendment is an individual right that is unconnected with service in any militia.

So then why does the 2nd amendment have 'well regulated militia' in it? Answer me that straight. I understand that it's the law, but just because a law exists that doesn't mean it isn't stupid, or indeed self0serving. Some of the laws in individual states are questionable, like that one about deflowering virgins in Auburn, Alabama.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:15 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 127):
If someone is clearly going to do harm, you stop them.

Sp, how do you determine whether someone is going to clearly do harm, with a gun? Does the mere ownership of a gun make someone more hazardous?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 127):
Significantly less time and effort than it takes to operate a car legally.

Operating a car is not a constitutional right.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 127):
So then why does the 2nd amendment have 'well regulated militia' in it? Answer me that straight.

Read the decision and the opinions.

But, the militia clause is a prefatory clause that does not constrain the operative clause, "shall not be infringed". The prefatory clause states a reason, not the only reason for the operative clause. Maybe, the author, and the ratifiers, of The Second Amendment felt that the militia clause was the most important reason at the time of ratification.

It's like saying: Reduced sun glare being necessary to safe driving, the right the people to keep and wear sunglasses should not be infringed.

Clearly, safe driving is not the only reason to wear sunglasses. And, we would be silly to think the first clause modifies the second clause.
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 7:37 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 128):
Sp, how do you determine whether someone is going to clearly do harm, with a gun? Does the mere ownership of a gun make someone more hazardous?

Well yes, someone with a gun is more dangerous than one without. Having a gun could make someone feel more untouchable and more dangerous, and there's always more potential for damage.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 128):
Operating a car is not a constitutional right.

No, which is why the inconvenience will be significantly less. Check someone is safe to own a gun, then all good to go. It works in every other country. People that need guns have them, people that don't need them don't have them, and people are safer for it. Your rights should not be worth 10,000+ deaths. Those deaths are terribly inconvenient.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 128):
But, the militia clause is a prefatory clause that does not constrain the operative clause, "shall not be infringed". The prefatory clause states a reason, not the only reason for the operative clause. Maybe, the author, and the ratifiers, of The Second Amendment felt that the militia clause was the most important reason at the time of ratification.

So if the authors/ratifiers thought it important, why is it being ignored?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 128):
It's like saying: Reduced sun glare being necessary to safe driving, the right the people to keep and wear sunglasses should not be infringed.

Clearly, safe driving is not the only reason to wear sunglasses. And, we would be silly to think the first clause modifies the second clause.

The difference of course being that sunglasses do absolutely no harm whatsoever, whereas having lots of guns around is dangerous. It doesn't change the fact that there isn't any militia nowadays, and the country's defence is handled by the military, the people of the USA are not fit to fight, making guns good only for specific needs or for dick-waving.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:04 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 129):
Well yes, someone with a gun is more dangerous than one without.

Bullshit.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 129):
People that need guns have them, people that don't need them don't have them,

It is not a bill of needs. It is The Bill of Rights. Need has no place in the decision making process when determining who should have access to a firearm.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 129):
So if the authors/ratifiers thought it important, why is it being ignored?

It is not being ignored. The National Guard passes for a militia. Amd, there are militia groups out there, though they tend to be a bit fringe. Even if that clause were wholly and completely ignored, that would not modify the operative clause: "The right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 129):
making guns good only for specific needs or for dick-waving.

So, if someone wants a gun, and meets the requirements of 18USC922(g), it really doesn't matter, does it?

Look, as much as I like doing this, I have a dinner party for 6+ 1/2 dozen kids to prepare for. Let's continue tomorrow, shall we?

[Edited 2016-04-10 13:06:05]
 
Max Q
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:30 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 111):
It is probably the most restrictively regulated right there is.

Right, its harder to get a Drivers license.



If guns make us so safe, why do we have the highest gun related death rate of any western nation ?
 
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Adipasquale
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:51 am

I saw the title of this thread, and before even clicking on it, figured there would be a whole long 2nd amendment discussion. OP was not asking to have a 2nd amendment discussion, he was asking for suggestions. If anyone wants to debate the 2nd amendment and how it has been interpreted by courts, maybe a new thread could be started for that. As for suggestions, I'm not super experienced with handguns, but my advice is the same as L-188:

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
I would suggest stopping by several stores and seeing what they have and what feels comfortable in in your hands.
Some ranges do have rental firearms so you may be able to try shooting one.

What I prefer may not be the same as what feels good and shoots well for you.
 
NAV30
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:08 am

I've always thought that the 'Founding Fathers' had virtually no money coming in at first, while facing the risk that the British or the French might send in soldiers to grab the whole place back On the other hand it had lots of people who owned guns and knew how to use them - due to limited 'law and order' and danger from wild animals. So it was only common sense to 'convert' them all into a 'well-regulated' (and free) 'militia.'

It must have 'helped' that the British and French were fighting each other at 'regular intervals' in Europe at the time, and didn't have the resources to 'recapture' North America as well.

So, arguably, it all 'worked out for the best'?
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:32 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 131):
Right, its harder to get a Drivers license.

You do not have a constitutional right to a drivers license. And, it should be harder to get a drivers license...a car or truck in the hands of a criminal, or worse, can be much more dangerous than a gun.

Quoting adipasquale (Reply 132):
I saw the title of this thread, and before even clicking on it, figured there would be a whole long 2nd amendment discussion.

Of course it did. The anti-gun nuts started in Reply 2.

[Edited 2016-04-11 03:34:41]
 
johns624
Posts: 4545
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 12:14 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 131):
Right, its harder to get a Drivers license.

Nonsense. It may take more time to get a driver's license, but it isn't easier. Convicted felons, mentally disturbed, drug abusing and illegal aliens, among others, can get drivers licenses but can't legally buy or own guns.
 
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pu
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:31 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 131):
If guns make us so safe, why do we have the highest gun related death rate of any western nation ?

People react to fear differently. There are different ideas as to what makes you safe.

For some people the fear of attack makes them want to carry a gun.

Other people do not have such an intense fear of attack, or feel it less, or react to the fear in different ways, like perhaps asking for policies against criminals besides personally carrying weaopnry. But it is fear or its absence that is at the heart of this.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
how come in the UK ... ]just need to look at any country that's developed and not the USA.

The US is without peer and it is of limited value to compare it with states of vastly different size, history and political situation, and of course no nation is such a melting pot of cultures while continuing to accept millions of immigrants....

When and if a significant majority of Americans decide they don't want so many guns, they will change the US Constitution just like the other times it has been changed, modified and ignored when it was wrong.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 101):
their guns are more important to them than (other's) lives.

Sure, but the idea that individual rights are supreme even when others disagree is a basic value for the Right, the Republicans and to some extent anyone that abhors the power of government.






Pu.
 
WIederling
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:53 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 134):
Of course it did. The anti-gun nuts started in Reply 2.

You should be more creative.

nuts is already reserved for "gun bearing wing nuts" and "gun nuts" in general.  
( and rightly so from going over gun related clips on youtube.)

Maybe "anti gun fruities" ?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:57 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 137):
nuts is already reserved for "gun bearing wing nuts" and "gun nuts" in general.

Paraphrasing a very important line from "The West Wing," it's not that a certain group of the population doesn't like guns, it's that they don't like the PEOPLE who like guns.

Think about that for a moment.

Those who oppose the 2nd Amendment actually dislike a good percentage of their fellow citizens, simply based on a belief.

How's that for tolerance?   
 
Max Q
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 8:23 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 134):
You do not have a constitutional right to a drivers license. And, it should be harder to get a drivers license...a car or truck in the hands of a criminal, or worse, can be much more dangerous than a gun.

What a ridiculous argument, cars don't shoot people.



But anything to justify your love of guns and ignore the death, mayhem and misery they cause.



You don't have a constitutional right to own an F18, there are limits and they need to be a hell of a lot
tighter.


Your right to own a gun must not eclipse others rights not to be shot !
 
johns624
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:33 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 139):
cars don't shoot people

No, but they still kill a lot every year.
 
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fr8mech
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:35 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 139):
What a ridiculous argument, cars don't shoot people.

No, they don't, but to use your logic, cars cause about 35,000 deaths per year and countless injuries.

You've as much right not to get shot as you have not to be in a car wreck. As you have not to get diabetes. As you have not to drown. As you have not to get knifed. As you get not to get mugged. As you have not to get the sniffles. As you have not be in a fire. Ad you have not to be burgled. As you have not to be in a plane crash. As you have not to be....whatever.

A year or so, in another thread, concerning our rights under The Second Amendment (maybe a Zimmermann thread), you or one of the other virulently, hoplophobic, gun-banning anti-gun nuts (that does not include all those that favor more gun control, just those that want a total ban, confiscation) said that sometimes you go with the flow. Sometimes you're the victim and there's nothing you can do about it, so why carry a gun? You know, sometimes you're the windshield, sometimes you're the bug.

[Edited 2016-04-12 05:49:34]

[Edited 2016-04-12 05:50:57]
 
WIederling
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:25 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 136):
People react to fear differently. There are different ideas as to what makes you safe.

You can't do "feeling save" while also increasing objective danger to others. That is being an egotistical a*hole!

does a gun increase objective savety? NO.

People running around with guns tends to invariably increase overall risk.
( and that folk myth that guns civilized the West is exactly that: a well nurtured folk myth.)

Thus no guns is better.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9145
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:04 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 141):
No, they don't, but to use your logic, cars cause about 35,000 deaths per year and countless injuries.

To use your 'logic' the misery caused by guns, a device specifically made for killing people is excused
by the fact that you can die in other ways.


What a ridiculous, self serving argument, only the gun nuts subscribe to this crap.


All you have to defend the mayhem your beloved guns cause is the same, tired old cliches
that mean nothing, kind of like a trump speech.


In the meantime NOTHING changes, the insanity and the death rate from uncontrolled guns continues unabated.
If you had a single, constructive DIFFERENT idea to address this national tragedy I might take you seriously.



More guns, more shooting, less guns less shooting, pretty simple.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 4:28 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 143):
More guns, more shooting, less guns less shooting, pretty simple.

Except for the fact that it's not that simple.

But keep on parroting that slogan....
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:26 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 143):
More guns, more shooting, less guns less shooting, pretty simple.

Absolute right. Thats why we tightly control guns in Australia. Don't have a good reason to own one, then you don't get to have one, simple

One of the best decisions John Howard made as PM         
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:36 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 138):
Paraphrasing a very important line from "The West Wing," it's not that a certain group of the population doesn't like guns, it's that they don't like the PEOPLE who like guns.

Think about that for a moment.

Those who oppose the 2nd Amendment actually dislike a good percentage of their fellow citizens, simply based on a belief.

How's that for tolerance?   

Please put more words in my mouth.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9145
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:44 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 144):
Except for the fact that it's not that simple.

Ok, then name YOUR solution to the problem, but it has to be different than

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 144):
parroting that slogan....
 
WIederling
Posts: 10041
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:01 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 143):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 141):
No, they don't, but to use your logic, cars cause about 35,000 deaths per year and countless injuries.

To use your 'logic' the misery caused by guns, a device specifically made for killing people is excused
by the fact that you can die in other ways.

What gets lost is that motor vehicles get actively used every day, their use is a necessity to keep a society running.
The associated risks need to be taken. ( and the same for other intrinsic risk: most dangerous place: the household. 

And this is definitely not valid for bearing guns.

( compare to the outcry if vaccinations had a higher complications
and death rate than the targeted illness.)
 
Max Q
Posts: 9145
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:43 am

Quoting WIederling (Reply 148):
What gets lost is that motor vehicles get actively used every day, their use is a necessity to keep a society running.
The associated risks need to be taken. ( and the same for other intrinsic risk: most dangerous place: the household.

And this is definitely not valid for bearing guns.

Well said Wd but in this country you're not going to change gun nuts mentality with mere facts..

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