Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:46 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 146):
Please put more words in my mouth.

Check your facts; my comment didn't quote you or cite anything you said in any way.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 147):
name YOUR solution to the problem

I've long suggested that firearms safety training should be a part of school curricula in the U.S. We teach kids how to avoid STDs and unplanned pregnancies, but for some reason we don't want to teach them about something so fundamentally part of our society that the founders of this nation made it the second most important right after freedom of speech.

Is it a solution? No, but odds are it would help a great deal if kids, from a young age, were taught how to safely and responsibly handle a firearm.

If you're asking for an absolute solution, there isn't one that doesn't involve surrendering the same right I just mentioned. So that's a non-starter.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:16 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
Check your facts; my comment didn't quote you or cite anything you said in any way.

Well, you tarred anyone who doesn't like guns with the same brush.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 10:30 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 151):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):Check your facts; my comment didn't quote you or cite anything you said in any way.

Well, you tarred anyone who doesn't like guns with the same brush.

No, I specifically addressed anyone who doesn't like people who like guns.
 
Zombus
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Mar 12, 2015 8:45 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 11:30 am

I'm from the Netherlands and I love this thread. I'll refrain from taking any sides here, and I'm also of no use to answer any of the OP's questions - I'll just mention how much I like this thread from a cultural/anthropological perspective.

I'll make sure to redirect anyone here who's interested in gun policy theatre here. Maybe link to wikipedia... It's a wonderful insight into the various attitudes towards guns from various international backgrounds. What you're all writing down is absolutely fascinating, but what's between the lines is perhaps even more interesting.

Carry on! (no pun intended  )
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:43 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 130):
Bullshit.

If I have a gun I have the potential to kill many people in a few seconds, a lot of terrorist attacks are carried out with guns, if I don't have a gun I have the potential to beat up and maybe kill someone, assuming someone bigger doesn't come along and knock me out or a policeman isn't nearby.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 130):
It is not a bill of needs. It is The Bill of Rights. Need has no place in the decision making process when determining who should have access to a firearm.

I have to question why a law should not be challenged.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
We teach kids how to avoid STDs and unplanned pregnancies

Not very well. The fact that abstinence is a focus even if it's not universal is bad.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
but for some reason we don't want to teach them about something so fundamentally part of our society that the founders of this nation made it the second most important right after freedom of speech.

Guns are not an important part of society, if guns magically ceased to exist society would go on with only a few grumbles, but without sex and pregnancy it changes drastically. It also affects the individual because getting pregnant at a young age is life-changing.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
Is it a solution? No, but odds are it would help a great deal if kids, from a young age, were taught how to safely and responsibly handle a firearm.

It's a possible solution for avoiding accidents, but an increased number of kids familiar with operating guns? That would increase the homicide number if anything.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 150):
If you're asking for an absolute solution, there isn't one that doesn't involve surrendering the same right I just mentioned. So that's a non-starter.

Well there isn't a solution really, but something can be done, people just don't want to do it, even if the loss of their rights is a pure technicality and in practice not different besides a *slight* inconvenience.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:58 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 154):
something can be done, people just don't want to do it, even if the loss of their rights is a pure technicality

It's awfully easy for you to give up someone ELSE'S rights, isn't it?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 154):
It's a possible solution for avoiding accidents, but an increased number of kids familiar with operating guns? That would increase the homicide number if anything.

Ridiculous. That's like saying more kids taking Driver's Ed in school would increase the number of students trying to mow down their classmates at a bus stop with their car.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:20 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 154):
It's a possible solution for avoiding accidents, but an increased number of kids familiar with operating guns? That would increase the homicide number if anything.

So, you criticize the abstinence only sex-ed policy, only to turn around and use the same mentality of the abstinence only types. God forbid someone know how something works, they might actually do it.

Get off your high horse. If you Euro types are so worried about our guns, send your armies over and take them. Then you'll really see how many guns we have.

-DiamondFlyer
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 8:13 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 155):
It's awfully easy for you to give up someone ELSE'S rights, isn't it?

When it comes to guns I'm not complaining about my 'loss' of rights.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 155):
Ridiculous. That's like saying more kids taking Driver's Ed in school would increase the number of students trying to mow down their classmates at a bus stop with their car.

Homicides involve killing other people intentionally. More people have knowledge of how to use guns, more people are potentially able to kill with guns, not rocket science. Well done on conflating accidental deaths from transport than intentional murders with guns, as you continue to not understand that just because other things kill people it doesn't exonerate gun deaths.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 156):
So, you criticize the abstinence only sex-ed policy, only to turn around and use the same mentality of the abstinence only types. God forbid someone know how something works, they might actually do it.

So what if people have sex? It happens, all over the world, every culture, starting from increasingly young ages. Having guns is nowhere near as widespread, or necessary, so it makes sense to teach kids that sex happens and how to handle it. Countries that educate kids on what sex is, contraception etc have lower teenage pregnancy rates than the USA.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 156):
Get off your high horse. If you Euro types are so worried about our guns, send your armies over and take them. Then you'll really see how many guns we have.

We're happy watching you shoot each other up in your schools from afar. We should make a sport out of it. Anyway I don't think your guns should be taken away.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:18 pm

Quoting SQ948 (Reply 158):
You are a great example of a guy who shouldn't be allowed to own a gun.

You're opinion is duly noted, and has been filed in the circular file. Thankfully, you have no way to make that decision and you would be happy to know that I could arm multiple squads of men, if needed.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 157):
So what if people have sex? It happens, all over the world, every culture, starting from increasingly young ages. Having guns is nowhere near as widespread, or necessary, so it makes sense to teach kids that sex happens and how to handle it. Countries that educate kids on what sex is, contraception etc have lower teenage pregnancy rates than the USA.

It is as widespread here. So, why not educate people at a young age on how they work, versus people learning about guns from Hollywood. The reason antis are so against basic gun education at a young age, is it would be against their long term confiscation scheme, as it would likely create a larger population who use and enjoy guns peacefully, like 99.9999% of us do.

-DiamondFlyer
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Wed Apr 13, 2016 9:31 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 159):
It is as widespread here.

I think more people in the USA have sex than have guns...

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 159):
So, why not educate people at a young age on how they work, versus people learning about guns from Hollywood.

You can do that, it'll likely lower the number of accidents. But it won't lower the number of homicides, because homicides are where people intend to kill. If more people know how to use guns, there may be an increase because people know how to use one. Respect for guns isn't the same as respect for death.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 159):
The reason antis are so against basic gun education at a young age, is it would be against their long term confiscation scheme, as it would likely create a larger population who use and enjoy guns peacefully, like 99.9999% of us do.

You're seriously paranoid. I've never suggested that you have your guns taken away. I wouldn't expect you to give them up. It would be nice if you could agree to something that sees your number of deaths go down, but you don't care, so I'm just here to procrastinate. And maybe come up with suggestions as to a practical application of shooting up kids in school sport.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4328
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 2:58 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 155):
It's awfully easy for you to give up someone ELSE'S rights, isn't it?

rights are for everyone, that's how they work.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 152):
No, I specifically addressed anyone who doesn't like people who like guns.

prior to which you made a sweeping statement generalising a whole group of people which you later specifically addressed as if the first point were true.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 156):
If you Euro types are so worried about our guns, send your armies over and take them.

what makes you assume that people want to take the guns away? Weird!

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 159):
The reason antis are so against basic gun education at a young age, is it would be against their long term confiscation scheme

that may be so, but it very much depends on what you define as anti. I anti means people who want to take away all firearms, sometimes known as "grabbers" then maybe so but there appears to be very few of those around. I think most would like to see some form of proof that the training had been undertaken and understood before a firearm in a certain category was able to be purchased or used outside of designated areas/supervision.

Fred
 
Max Q
Posts: 9144
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:02 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 160):
You're seriously paranoid. I've never suggested that you have your guns taken away. I wouldn't expect you to give them up. It would be nice if you could agree to something that sees your number of deaths go down, but you don't care

And that describes your gun nut in a nutshell, their guns are more important to them than other peoples lives.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 5:12 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 162):
And that describes your gun nut in a nutshell, their guns are more important to them than other peoples lives.

Answer this set of questions:

Are our rights to vote, speech, trial, religion, freedom, etc. more important than any individual life...or even set of lives?

You think the pro-Second Amendment movement is simply about guns...it's not, it's about all our constitutional rights.

[Edited 2016-04-13 22:13:55]
 
Max Q
Posts: 9144
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:50 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 162):
Are our rights to vote, speech, trial, religion, freedom, etc. more important than any individual life...or even set of lives?

You think the pro-Second Amendment movement is simply about guns...it's not, it's about all our constitutional rights

You're missing the point, other peoples right not to be shot is far greater than the right to own guns.



Nothing eclipses that and the second amendment is an amendment, remember that, it was a change and changes
can still be made as circumstances change.


They have changed, we are not in the wild west anymore.


Unlimited guns for anyone and anyone is insane as can be seen by the daily carnage in this country of ours.



Guns do NOT keep us safer, as long as humans have emotions they will use them inappropriately, or I should say appropriately as that is what they are made for, to kill people.



No amount of 'training' or 'enforcing existing laws' or clinging to the 'good guy with a gun' fantasy will change that, you can't change human nature,


Its way past time for significant restrictions on gun ownership, apathy isn't working.



More guns, more shooting, less guns, less shooting, pretty simple.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:52 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 163):
You're missing the point, other peoples right not to be shot is far greater than the right to own guns.

And, you're missing the point, that you have no more right not to get shot than any other calamity that may occur to you...or anyone else.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 1:49 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 160):
I think most would like to see some form of proof that the training had been undertaken and understood before a firearm in a certain category was able to be purchased or used outside of designated areas/supervision.

So then you have no problem with a test prior to voting, to see if you're educated enough to vote. Or a tax being paid prior to being able to assemble, right?

-DiamondFlyer
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 7:13 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 154):
Guns are not an important part of society

The framers of the U.S. Constitution thought otherwise. I'll go with them on this one.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 157):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 155):It's awfully easy for you to give up someone ELSE'S rights, isn't it?
When it comes to guns I'm not complaining about my 'loss' of rights.

Sure, because it's not a right you care for. Others do; just because you don't like something doesn't mean you get to take it away from everyone.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 157):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 155):Ridiculous. That's like saying more kids taking Driver's Ed in school would increase the number of students trying to mow down their classmates at a bus stop with their car.
Homicides involve killing other people intentionally. More people have knowledge of how to use guns, more people are potentially able to kill with guns, not rocket science. Well done on conflating accidental deaths from transport than intentional murders with guns,

Oh no you don't, nice try. Re-read what I wrote; I never said "accident" - I talked specifically about kids TRYING to mow down their classmates with a car. Intentionally.

That was to point out what a flawed, irresponsible argument you put forth, where you believe teaching someone how to safely handle a firearm suddenly means more people will start killing each other. Just ridiculous.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 160):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 155):It's awfully easy for you to give up someone ELSE'S rights, isn't it?

rights are for everyone, that's how they work.

Which means you can't just arbitrarily revoke them because you happen to disagree with them.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 163):
other peoples right not to be shot is far greater than the right to own guns

Owning guns doesn't equal being shot any more than owning knives doesn't equal stabbings.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 163):
More guns, more shooting, less guns, less shooting, pretty simple.

I'm so glad that complex issues are solved by bumper-sticker slogans in your head. But again, you're wrong.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:18 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 166):
The framers of the U.S. Constitution thought otherwise. I'll go with them on this one.

Do you genuinely think society would crumble if guns ceased to exist? The framers are just people, not deities.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 166):
Sure, because it's not a right you care for. Others do; just because you don't like something doesn't mean you get to take it away from everyone.

Even if I wouldn't take it away from everyone, only regulate it. Where have I actually said that you couldn't have your guns even if regulation happened. You are aware that countries with gun regulations do have guns right?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 166):
Oh no you don't, nice try. Re-read what I wrote; I never said "accident" - I talked specifically about kids TRYING to mow down their classmates with a car. Intentionally.

I read you wrong then, mea culpa.

That said, I didn't mean that people knowing how to use guns means more people would want to kill. I meant that more people who want to kill now have knowledge of how to use a tool to kill efficiently.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 166):
That was to point out what a flawed, irresponsible argument you put forth, where you believe teaching someone how to safely handle a firearm suddenly means more people will start killing each other. Just ridiculous.

If someone doesn't know how to operate a firearm, they can't kill with it. If no one had knowledge of how to operate a gun, murders with guns would be limited. Because you can't use something if you don't know how.

And anyway, I did say that teaching familiarity with guns would lower the number of accidents. I just don't see how it could lead to anything other than a similar or increased number of homicides.
 
Osubuckeyes
Posts: 1901
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:05 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 8:42 pm

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
If someone doesn't know how to operate a firearm, they can't kill with it. If no one had knowledge of how to operate a gun, murders with guns would be limited. Because you can't use something if you don't know how.

People do plenty of things without knowing how or how it works.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
And anyway, I did say that teaching familiarity with guns would lower the number of accidents. I just don't see how it could lead to anything other than a similar or increased number of homicides.

Do drug awareness programs lead to higher drug use? Do driving courses lead to increased number of accidents?
 
johns624
Posts: 4543
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:54 pm

What's it with all the people who know that crimes are committed with illegal guns, yet they think that taking guns away from law-abiding citizens is going to make us safer? I'm still waiting on statistics on how many crimes have been committed or people illegally shot by CCW license holders. I'm waiting...and waiting...and waiting...
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Thu Apr 14, 2016 9:56 pm

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 168):
Do drug awareness programs lead to higher drug use?

I don't know. However if people go on drug awareness programs I'm sure there's a lower chance of them overdosing or becoming addicted, even if it'll still happen.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 168):
Do driving courses lead to increased number of accidents?

No. Increased training usually leads to less accidents, which is why the deaths from car crashes tend to decrease over time. And accidents are not really relevant when it comes to gun homicides. Car accidents happen because people aren't perfect and technology isn't perfect, but every effort is made to make them safer. The same cannot be said for guns in the United States. And cars have a much bigger payoff.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 168):
People do plenty of things without knowing how or how it works.

Oh absolutely, but I just want someone to explain to me how more people being familiar with guns can lead to lower homicide rates. It could stay roughly the same, it could increase, but I don't see how it wouldn't decrease the rate, even if I think the number of accidents would go down.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:10 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
Do you genuinely think society would crumble if guns ceased to exist?

How do you see that happening in the US? With ~350,000,000 firearms in non-government hands.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
If someone doesn't know how to operate a firearm, they can't kill with it. If no one had knowledge of how to operate a gun, murders with guns would be limited. Because you can't use something if you don't know how.

Is it your opinion that this ape knows how to operate the firearm?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhxqIITtTtU

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
And anyway, I did say that teaching familiarity with guns would lower the number of accidents. I just don't see how it could lead to anything other than a similar or increased number of homicides.

So, a greater understanding of how something works can not lead to a reduction in the improper or inappropriate use of the that item? Will it reduce the intentional homicide rate...probably not, but let me tell you what it will do: it will reduce accidental and/or negligent discharge of the firearm. The anti-Second Amendment types are always harping on the kids that accidentally shoot themselves or others. Training will fix that issue.

What will reduce the homicide rate is enforcing the firearms laws we have in place. There should be a federal charge applied to anyone that uses or possesses a firearm when they are ineligible to possess one under federal law. That gets the criminals off the street.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:19 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 169):
What's it with all the people who know that crimes are committed with illegal guns, yet they think that taking guns away from law-abiding citizens is going to make us safer?

It works everywhere else but the USA.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
How do you see that happening in the US? With ~350,000,000 firearms in non-government hands.

Society will not crumble, there will just be more grumble.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
Is it your opinion that this ape knows how to operate the firearm?

A bit of a difference when the gun is loaded with the safety off...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
So, a greater understanding of how something works can not lead to a reduction in the improper or inappropriate use of the that item? Will it reduce the intentional homicide rate...probably not, but let me tell you what it will do: it will reduce accidental and/or negligent discharge of the firearm.

I'm glad I got that across:

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 170):
even if I think the number of accidents would go down.
Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
And anyway, I did say that teaching familiarity with guns would lower the number of accidents. I just don't see how it could lead to anything other than a similar or increased number of homicides.
Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 159):
You can do that, it'll likely lower the number of accidents.
Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 154):
It's a possible solution for avoiding accidents
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
The anti-Second Amendment types are always harping on the kids that accidentally shoot themselves or others. Training will fix that issue.

See above.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
What will reduce the homicide rate is enforcing the firearms laws we have in place.

Debatable.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
There should be a federal charge applied to anyone that uses or possesses a firearm when they are ineligible to possess one under federal law. That gets the criminals off the street.

That comes under 'cure' rather than 'prevention'. You know what the doctor says...
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:05 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
What will reduce the homicide rate is enforcing the firearms laws we have in place.

Then what are you waiting for ?

Get on and do it

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
There should be a federal charge applied to anyone that uses or possesses a firearm when they are ineligible to possess one under federal law

Ok, again, get on and legislate it into law.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 172):
It works everywhere else but the USA.

Right on.

Seems strange that so many Americans just cant grasp that fact.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:21 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 172):
It works everywhere else but the USA.

You know what...let's all understand something...European or Kiwi or Canadian gun control laws are incompatible with The Second Amendment.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 172):
Society will not crumble, there will just be more grumble

Not asking what will happen with society...I'm asking you, how would that look to you? How do you get 350,000,000 firearms out of private hands?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 173):
Then what are you waiting for ?

Get on and do it

Considering, I'm not in any position to enforce any laws, other than write my Senators and Congress-critter, I can't do a whole lot.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 173):
Ok, again, get on and legislate it into law.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/922

It's already law.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 172):
That comes under 'cure' rather than 'prevention'. You know what the doctor says...

That's as much prevention as cure.

[Edited 2016-04-14 19:30:09]
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:41 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
You know what...let's all understand something...European or Kiwi or Canadian gun control laws are incompatible with The Second Amendment.

Just because a law exists it doesn't mean it's untouchable. I'm not sure I can ever get my head around the fact that even if there was a workable solution to reducing the deaths considerably you wouldn't do it, because... rights!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
Not asking what will happen with society...I'm asking you, how would that look to you? How do you get 350,000,000 firearms out of private hands?

I was talking at a theoretical level: if guns were to cease to exist, society would not crumble. I thought the 'cease to exist' rather than 'taken away' part gave it away...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
That's as much prevention as cure.

It wouldn't stop cases where the killer is a first time offender. Which I suspect more than a fair few are.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:49 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 167):
Even if I wouldn't take it away from everyone, only regulate it.

Then your mission is already complete, as there are already plenty of laws and regulations in place regarding firearms.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 170):
Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 168):Do drug awareness programs lead to higher drug use?

I don't know.

More likely that you DO know, but don't want to say...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 171):
The anti-Second Amendment types are always harping on the kids that accidentally shoot themselves or others. Training will fix that issue.


  

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 172):
Society will not crumble, there will just be more grumble.

Yay, another bumper-sticker slogan that helps nothing...   
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:55 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 175):
It wouldn't stop cases where the killer is a first time offender. Which I suspect more than a fair few are.

You can not stop someone with laws. Laws are designed to punish. Someone who has decided to break the law, will not be deterred by the law(s) he wishes to break.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 175):
I was talking at a theoretical level: if guns were to cease to exist, society would not crumble

You're right. But, that changes nothing, because arms exist.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 175):
because... rights!

And, that's the crux, right there. Exactly what rights are you willing to give up to "feel safer"? Wouldn't we all be safer if the government could enter any home, business, vehicle, etc and look for illegal weapons and drugs? How about random personal searches?

What about free speech? Wouldn't we live in a safer world if the government were allowed to regulate our speech, so that no one would ever be offended and feel the need to lash-out?

Freedom of religion? My God, man...how many lives could be saved if we all practiced the same religion...or none at all.

So, yes..

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 175):
because... rights!

Because, rights are important and they are, all of them, what stand between us and tyranny.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9144
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:48 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 164):
And, you're missing the point, that you have no more right not to get shot than any other calamity that may occur to you...or anyone else.

This view is the epitome of the insane gun nut and the reason for the continued carnage in this country.


My right to life is more important than yours to blast away at anything and everything.


The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness eclipses all.


Sound familiar ?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
Exactly what rights are you willing to give up to "feel safer"?

Unlimited guns for anyone and everyone.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:12 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
How do you get 350,000,000 firearms out of private hands?

Like we did. You have a "buy back scheme".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_buyback_program

Worked very successfully !

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
I can't do a whole lot.

From the outside, it very much appears that not many Americans do want to do a lot about it, pity.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
It's already law.

So whats the problem, why, is it not an effective law or is it not being policed, and if not why not ?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 176):
Then your mission is already complete, as there are already plenty of laws and regulations in place regarding firearms.

Why aren't they having the desired effect then ?
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:54 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 179):
Like we did. You have a "buy back scheme".

"buy back" suggests that the government owned them in the first place and has some right to them. It did not and does not. It may have worked for you guys...I seriously doubt it would work for us. Except, maybe for some folks to get good, tax-payer money for non-functioning firearms.

Pray tell, what would have happened, or what did happen to folks that did not take the government's generous offer?

I think it's hilarious that your government raised your taxes in order to pay for the compulsory program. I didn't know that little gem.

Further, from your link, concerning "buy back" in the US:

Gun homicides and assaults actually rose during the two-month program,

The study found that the "effect on decreasing violent crime and reducing firearm mortality is unknown."

Criminals also saw these buybacks as a simple way to dispose of guns that were used in crimes

the police collected 13,500 of firearms - mostly handguns - at a cost of over $660,000. However, the city's already high gun homicide and assault rates actually increased during the program, for which police officials offered no explanation

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 179):
and if not why not ?

Apathy?
Politics?
Agenda?
Resources?

None of the above, all of the above or some of the above. Who knows?

Quoting Max Q (Reply 178):
My right to life is more important than yours to blast away at anything and everything.

As you well know, I've no right to blast anything and everything or anyone. That is hyperbole on your part. I have a right to arm myself, within the law.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 178):
The right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness

Yes, from the Declaration of Independence.

Tell me...if you have the right to life, how is that enforced in a car accident? How about cancer? A tornado? A heart attack?

Again, you have no more right to not get shot than you have for any other ill to befall you. Do you have a right not to get into a car wreck? How about Cancer? Do you have a right to not get Cancer?

To tell you the truth, I suspect Jefferson meant ...life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness, free from government interference.


Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 179):
From the outside, it very much appears that not many Americans do want to do a lot about it, pity.

You're incorrect. Americans want our laws enforced. It is our elected/appointed officials that aren't doing the job, and I'll suggest, that a complacent/complicit press has quite a bit to do with it.

[Edited 2016-04-14 22:56:32]
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 5:59 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 164):
that you have no more right not to get shot than any other calamity that may occur to you...or anyone else.

This I truly do not understand. Getting shot is usually the result of someone's decision to discharge a firearm (I accept that the person firing may be acting in self-defence). It is not in the same category of having a heart attack, losing one's job or a brush fire started by lightning getting out of control and burning your home. You can not compare an incident that is accidental or the outcome that is the result of changes within your body with the deliberate actions of another person to do you harm. Assuming that you have not broken the law, your getting shot is likely to be the result of a criminal action by someone else.

Are you saying that the various States have no laws creating offences of unlawful wounding, unlawful killing, unlawful discharge of a firearm? The fact that they do suggests to me that it is a reasonable expectation that law abiding citizens should be able to go about their business without the fear of getting shot. The State might not be able to guarantee your safety but it does try to reduce the risk through legislation, the presence of law enforcement officers, apprehending offenders and imposing sanctions through the Courts. I appreciate that these efforts can not be 100% effective but never the less indicate support for the basic premise: people may go about their business without fear of attacks on their lives.

Please note, I am not arguing against the right of citizens to bear arms having been trained in their use for employment purposes myself. I am just a bit a bit puzzled by your assertion.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:09 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 181):
The State might not be able to guarantee your safety

Correct.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 181):
reduce the risk through legislation, the presence of law enforcement officers, apprehending offenders and imposing sanctions through the Courts.

Also correct.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 181):
I appreciate that these efforts can not be 100% effective but never the less indicate support for the basic premise: people may go about their business without fear of attacks on their lives.

And, that is the basic point that I'm trying to make. We have no right to absolute safety. And, most people can go about there business every single day of their lives without fear of some sort of attack.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 181):
It is not in the same category of having a heart attack, losing one's job or a brush fire started by lightning getting out of control and burning your home. You can not compare an incident that is accidental or the outcome that is the result of changes within your body with the deliberate actions of another person to do you harm. Assuming that you have not broken the law, your getting shot is likely to be the result of a criminal action by someone else.

The point I'm trying to make is that we have no right to not be harmed, in any manner. We can take steps to prevent some harm. We can take steps to prepare to deal with the harm. We can take steps to mitigate the effects of the harm.

I appreciate that "getting rid of all the guns" may stop a person from getting shot, but I take issue with the statement that no one has a right to not get shot. It is just a fact of life that in this world, you may get shot. And, yes, in the US, your chances of getting shot are higher than in other places...and lower than some others.
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:48 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 182):

Thank you for your response.

Perhaps it is a difference in words. I do hold that in a civil society one has the "right" not to be shot but I don't have the "expectation" of absolute safety.

Regards, Weary
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 6:59 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 183):
I do hold that in a civil society one has the "right" not to be shot but I don't have the "expectation" of absolute safety.

I'd reverse that:

You have an "expectation" not be shot, but no "right". Right implies a legal duty of some sort.

From Google:

a moral or legal entitlement to have or obtain something or to act in a certain way.
"she had every right to be angry"
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 7:09 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 184):
Right implies a legal duty of some sort.

Given that the Parliament in my State has passed laws providing for public safety, I would hold that I do indeed have the right. If someone infringes upon that right the State may bring a prosecution and I may seek civil redress in the courts.

Of course, if I am dead it won't matter much to me any more but the State would still be obliged to act to obtain evidence and bring the perpetrator to justice.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:31 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 185):
Given that the Parliament in my State has passed laws providing for public safety,

Does your parliament have a legal duty to keep you safe? Can you bring suit against them if harm comes to you, assuming no negligence on their part? If you are mugged, can you sue the police department and your local government for failing to keep you safe?

You have an expectation that they can keep you safe based on the laws they've passed and the infra-structure they've put in place.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 185):
Of course, if I am dead it won't matter much to me any more but the State would still be obliged to act to obtain evidence and bring the perpetrator to justice.

Exactly, the criminal justice system is largely reactive. It exists to make you, or society, whole. It does have proactive elements, but, for instance, a police department is an investigative body that responds to the actions of the civilian population, or a sub-set of it.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:46 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
You can not stop someone with laws. Laws are designed to punish. Someone who has decided to break the law, will not be deterred by the law(s) he wishes to break.

You can do a damn better job than the USA does currently. You don't seem to grasp that everywhere else manages to keep the number of deaths down from guns.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
You're right. But, that changes nothing, because arms exist.

Just trying to explain that guns are not a necessity for society.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
And, that's the crux, right there. Exactly what rights are you willing to give up to "feel safer"?

The right to bear arms!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
Wouldn't we all be safer if the government could enter any home, business, vehicle, etc and look for illegal weapons and drugs?

Probably, but thankfully the British government doesn't do this any more than the US one. Because I've got all the freedoms you have except the guns.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
How about random personal searches?

See above.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
What about free speech? Wouldn't we live in a safer world if the government were allowed to regulate our speech, so that no one would ever be offended and feel the need to lash-out?

See above.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
Freedom of religion? My God, man...how many lives could be saved if we all practiced the same religion...or none at all.

You wouldn't hear a peep out of me. Religion is backwards and manipulative. Maybe I'd just say no public religion.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 177):
Because, rights are important and they are, all of them, what stand between us and tyranny.

And the price you pay for the illusion of freedom... totally worth it!
 
johns624
Posts: 4543
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:20 pm

I've met at least one Aussie who came into my store looking for repair parts for his Mossberg 500 shotgun that he never turned in. Too bad that I didn't have the parts they needed and they were going home the next day.
 
jbflyguy84
Posts: 124
Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 3:30 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:41 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
You know what...let's all understand something...European or Kiwi or Canadian gun control laws are incompatible with The Second Amendment.

Then change it...

It is, after all, an AMENDMENT. They can be changed time and time again.

Doesn't your Constitution start with 'WE THE PEOPLE'?

I don't pretend to know much about US Constitutional law (but I do find it thoroughly interesting!), but surely a vote could be allowed should there be enough of the people who want the change. Similar to Referendum in the Australian system. 50% +1 of the people AND 50%+1 of the states have to agree in order for whatever constitutional change is required.

I don't understand this need to stick to the writings on a 300+ year old document - everything can be changed, nothing is written in stone or blood of the founding fathers.

Put it to the people - if they vote to keep the 2nd Amendment, then so be it, case closed.

I know I am over simplifying this, but no one talks of changing the darned thing!
 
JJJ
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 188):
I've met at least one Aussie who came into my store looking for repair parts for his Mossberg 500 shotgun that he never turned in.

That's because shotguns are perfectly legal to own and operate in Australia.

I should know since I've shot a couple times there.

They even get to own shotguns with 5-slug magazine capacity while over here we're stuck with 3 (actually 2+1).
 
johns624
Posts: 4543
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:58 pm

Quoting jbflyguy84 (Reply 189):
surely a vote could be allowed should there be enough of the people who want the change.

That's not how Constitutional Amendments are changed.

Quoting jbflyguy84 (Reply 189):
300+ year old document

Your math is lacking. It's about 228 years.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 190):
That's because shotguns are perfectly legal to own and operate in Australia.

Only by certain people, and only if it's registered. This one wasn't.
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3579
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:50 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:15 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 191):
That's not how Constitutional Amendments are changed.

I don't know how to have intelligent conversation about guns with antis and grabbers, when they continue to show their total lack of intelligence.

Quoting jbflyguy84 (Reply 189):
I know I am over simplifying this, but no one talks of changing the darned thing!

Because it would literally start the 2nd Civil War, I have no doubt about that.


-DiamondFlyer
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:57 am

Quoting jbflyguy84 (Reply 189):
Then change it..

The process to amend The Constitution is found in Article V. It is hard, as it should be.

And, quite simply, I don't see it happening concerning The Second Amendment, because no where near the required super-majority required to amend it would be reached in either house. Nor, will you get 2/3rds of the state legislatures to agree to such a thing.

Hell, considering something like 39 states are Shall Issue states, and every state, now has a concealed permit mechanism, I suspect you'll be hard press to come even close.

And, that's for just concealed carry, not even gun ownership.

Quoting jbflyguy84 (Reply 189):
I know I am over simplifying this, but no one talks of changing the darned thing!

Oh, they talk about it; try a Google search. But, it doesn't go anywhere, because there is no real wide-spread public support for it.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 187):

You can do a damn better job than the USA does currently.

yes, we could. As already noted in a few of my replies. Let's enforce the current laws, before we write new ones, shall we?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 187):
You don't seem to grasp that everywhere else manages to keep the number of deaths down from guns.

And, you don't seem to grasp that,

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 174):
European or Kiwi or Canadian gun control laws are incompatible with The Second Amendment.

Unless, The Second Amendment goes away, or in modified, or is interpreted differently, we will not see your level of gun control. Just won't happen. Gun control laws that approach the levels seen in Europe are being struck down by courts nation-wide.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2937
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 1:26 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 193):
yes, we could.

What are you waiting for then?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 193):
As already noted in a few of my replies. Let's enforce the current laws, before we write new ones, shall we?

It may make a difference, but I'm not certain it will do much in the grand scheme of things.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 193):
Unless, The Second Amendment goes away, or in modified, or is interpreted differently, we will not see your level of gun control. Just won't happen. Gun control laws that approach the levels seen in Europe are being struck down by courts nation-wide.

All my arguments are unrealistic, because people like you and DiamondFlyer exist. But that's because of the way you are, you won't change, so there will be no change, there isn't much point in trying, I just enjoy the debate (as I'm sure you do, no one's preparing that much if they don't care!). But that doesn't mean something shouldn't be done, besides an assertion that enforcing existing laws better will make things better, because regardless the number of people that die will be high in the USA regardless, waaaaay higher than it could be.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8426
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:28 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 194):
It may make a difference, but I'm not certain it will do much in the grand scheme of things.

Why? Put the criminals that use guns in jail, and keep them there, you eliminate those folks as repeaters. And, if those folks were ineligible to possess a firearm, they should be charged under federal law for the weapons charge. That way, if they are not convicted or plea down the original charge, they still have the weapons charge.

But, we don't do that...why?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 194):

All my arguments are unrealistic, because people like you and DiamondFlyer exist.

No, not unrealistic, just unworkable. Not because of Diamondflyer or me, because there are millions of us who value our constitutional rights...all of them.
 
Max Q
Posts: 9144
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:30 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 182):
I take issue with the statement that no one has a right to not get shot

As a gun nut that doesn't surprise me.
 
User avatar
Pellegrine
Posts: 2693
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:11 am

Glock 29 SF

10 millimeter
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:41 am

Glock 43 9mm would be my go-to if I carried concealed a lot.
 
KBJCpilot
Topic Author
Posts: 210
Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 7:12 pm

RE: Concealed Handgun- Recommendations?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 11:53 pm

Thanks everyone for the input. I'm partial to the Glock, but am a little concerned about the lack of a "hard" safety rather than the trigger safety it comes with. I've looked at a Taurus, S&W, and a Springfield XDs. One of the issues I need to come to come to grips with is how it will feel in my front pocket in a pair of shorts or jeans so I need to find an in-pocket holster and see how they feel. Also, the ease of taking it out and having it available within a short amount of time.

I'm comfortable with the 9mm round and I think 6+1 is enough to deal with a bad guy or two in the right situation- unless you guys have a better suggestion.

I also fly for recreation so I need to make sure that whatever I choose will fit comfortably in my flight bag while not being too heavy and totally concealable. I don't want to have it in my pocket or inside the belt holster while flying.

Any suggestions?

Cheers!

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos