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dc10lover
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1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:41 am

1956: “America Peaked Back Then and We’ve Been In Decline Ever Since”

Editor’s Comment: How far we have fallen! The American Dream used to be attainable to all who worked hard, and freedom was still a tangible thing that many experienced. People used common sense and wisdom from experience to make it through life.

http://www.shtfplan.com/conspiracy-f...een-in-decline-ever-since_04062016

This is a very interesting article. I also remember "The Good Old Days". By the way i am 51.
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:02 am

Quoting dc10lover (Thread starter):
1956: “America Peaked Back Then and We’ve Been In Decline Ever Since”

We tend to glamorize the fifties, but all was not well here. Just two years after the schools were desegregated ( I was in Florida in school when the order came down, and it was not well received. As a Northerner, I caught some shit. Then into the insanity of the 60's and Viet Nam There were more jobs for some, plenty of work, not great pay for many. I started my first union job in 1958 as a machinist trainee. 60 bucks a week, nickel an hour union pay raise was standard. If I remember correctly, also a big recession 1958 or 59. Laid off, moved to New Jersey to work for my brother-in-law. Union trucker. Heyday of the Unions in those days. Eventually prosperity hit and we have been going down the tubes after the Clinton years. Reagan the former union man fired the ATC. Corporate greed took over, and voter apathy has done us in economically for the last few decades. Look at us now. Tragic. Trump is correct on this point.

[Edited 2016-04-06 19:13:52]

[Edited 2016-04-06 19:15:56]

[Edited 2016-04-06 19:17:43]
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johns624
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:04 am

They were 3 years off. I was born in 1959.  
 
vikkyvik
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:14 am

Quoting dc10lover (Thread starter):
The American Dream used to be attainable to all who worked hard

Riiiight. All white people, I suppose.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:35 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 3):
Riiiight. All white people, I suppose.



The fifties were glamorized, we have since realized they were. As it is now, great for some, not so great for others. It is obviously headed back towards the years of not so great for many more as the population increases.
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BMI727
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:37 am

This is the dumbest piece of clickbait I've seen in a long time. Half the good things about 1956 aren't even good, like not having bike helmets. Yay brain damage!
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Revelation
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:45 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):
Reagan the former union man fired the ATC. Corporate greed took over, and voter apathy has done us in economically for the last few decades. Look at us now.

Pretty much the way I remember it. I was born in the 60s, came of age in the 70s. Up to that point we were all about building the better mouse trap. Space age stuff. Invented a large majority of all things electronic, like computers, microprocessors, and the Internet. In the 80s it switched over to unbridled greed. Corporate raiders. Leveraged buy-outs. Junk bonds. Greedy bastards cleaning out established firms just because those firms that were fiscally conservative had some money in the bank that they could raid. Bastards that had more money than they could spend in a lifetime yet had to get more just so they could show off more than the other greedy bastards. We should have hung them up by the short and curlies, instead we glamorized and glorified them. Now is the result. We don't invent much, we manufacture even less, and our future is in the hands of others.
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:56 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Pretty much the way I remember it. I was born in the 60s, came of age in the 70s. Up to that point we were all about building the better mouse trap. Space age stuff. Invented a large majority of all things electronic, like computers, microprocessors, and the Internet. In the 80s it switched over to unbridled greed. Corporate raiders. Leveraged buy-outs. Junk bonds. Greedy bastards cleaning out established firms just because those firms that were fiscally conservative had some money in the bank that they could raid. Bastards that had more money than they could spend in a lifetime yet had to get more just so they could show off more than the other greedy bastards. We should have hung them up by the short and curlies, instead we glamorized and glorified them. Now is the result. We don't invent much, we manufacture even less, and our future is in the hands of others.

Amen brother. That sums it up very well. We have been screwed blued and tattooed by our and our governments Corporate Masters. Along the way since the fifties we slid into Oligarchy, not Democratic at all when you can see reality. I must say, that even Conservative Republican friends of mine are starting to see the light. It is even starting to replace Obama as their favorite object of hate. Most of my friends are in the same social circles, worker bees who have been screwed over economically.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 5:30 pm

Nostalgia like this is just stupid.

"Things are in the toilet" yet we are all living more comfortable, connected, educated, richer, healthier and safer than at any time in history. I'll take 2016 over any year in the past.

In 40 years someone will write the same article about today.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
We don't invent much, we manufacture even less, and our future is in the hands of others.

What a ridiculous statement.

[Edited 2016-04-07 10:30:42]
 
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Revelation
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 8):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
We don't invent much, we manufacture even less, and our future is in the hands of others.

What a ridiculous statement.

It's absolutely true, relative to the time period we're discussing.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 8):
we are all living more comfortable, connected, educated, richer, healthier and safer than at any time in history

That statement is subject to ridicule. Many of us are not as comfortable, not as well educated, not as rich, not as healthy and not as safe as we were in the time period we're discussing. For instance college education used to be much more accessible and affordable in the past. The thing we now call connected is an electronic form of connection but I'm willing to wager in a real sense we're less connected to our neighbors and families than we were in the past.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 6:46 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Many of us are not as comfortable, not as well educated, not as rich, not as healthy and not as safe as we were in the time period we're discussing.

If you're not doing better than the average person was in 1956 you need to look inward rather than blaming others.

The number of people getting an education today is better than it was in the 50's. Safety too. Homicide rates are at record lows as are violent crimes all around the nation. Car accident deaths and workplace safety has made leaps and bounds. Contrary to popular belief the world is more stable politically and calmer than it ever has been in our lifetimes. Healthcare is much better today for the average person and it shows in our increasing life expectancy and general quality of life.

I sure do miss all those kids with Polio and Whooping Cough and the fear of being killed by the Soviets. At least none of the colored folk had to lay in the convalescent home next to them as they died.
 
diverted
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Pretty much the way I remember it. I was born in the 60s, came of age in the 70s. Up to that point we were all about building the better mouse trap. Space age stuff. Invented a large majority of all things electronic, like computers, microprocessors, and the Internet. In the 80s it switched over to unbridled greed. Corporate raiders. Leveraged buy-outs. Junk bonds. Greedy bastards cleaning out established firms just because those firms that were fiscally conservative had some money in the bank that they could raid. Bastards that had more money than they could spend in a lifetime yet had to get more just so they could show off more than the other greedy bastards. We should have hung them up by the short and curlies, instead we glamorized and glorified them. Now is the result. We don't invent much, we manufacture even less, and our future is in the hands of others.

I believe that was called "trickle down economics"

Have you felt any trickles? I just feel like I'm getting p*ssed on if that counts as a trickle...
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:18 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
our future is in the hands of others

people like BMI are your future, ain't it rosey?
 
vikkyvik
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):
people like BMI are your future, ain't it rosey?

People like BMI? Considering he's the only person I "know" who is close to my age or younger, and promotes the philosophy that he does, I truly doubt he's our future.

As I've said before, his philosophy, while great in theory, would never work, and would absolutely never get implemented.
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Redd
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:00 pm

In my opinion, what made America great was a strong blue collar middle class. A typical working man being able to afford a house, car, maybe a boat & a motorcycle or RV. It seemed for a while that poverty was going to be a thing of the past in the USA.

Most of those jobs for the blue collar middle class that can give enough income for a very decent material lifestyle have disappeared from the USA.

All those jobs are now overseas, but they didn't have to be. Just look at manufacturing in Germany or Sweden, the average wages in Norway for blue collar workers. Americans rag on unions, but they were a Godsend for Americans.
 
mt99
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:14 pm

Quoting dc10lover (Thread starter):
How far we have fallen! The American Dream used to be attainable to all who worked hard, and freedom was still a tangible thing that many experienced. People used common sense and wisdom from experience to make it through life.

This is for you my friend

Darlene McBride's greatest hits

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqZaQKskP-AO

" a big ugly melting pot boiling over on what used to be a nice white stove..."

[Edited 2016-04-07 13:16:16]
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Osubuckeyes
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:42 pm

I just find it ironic that someone posted on an aviation site that 1956 is better than now. There are a massive list of things that are better now than in 1956 especially in aviation. But if OP wants to go back to a time when global travel was limited to a select few privileged individuals that's fine, he can have his midnight in Paris moment.

Also, I'm not sure how anyone can take that article seriously based on it's source.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:13 pm

Based on what I can remember and what my fathers and grandfathers said, I'd love to experience the '60s or '70s. Of course I would need to go back with my mind erased of the present life, so I don't know what I'm "missing". But I hear of a much better life back then. We have many more "things" now, but that doesn't make for a more fulfilling life. I'd gladly trade today's things for yesteryear's people, relationships, freedom, exploration, and lifestyle.
 
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pvjin
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 9:18 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 8):
In 40 years someone will write the same article about today.

I highly doubt that, at least if the developments in the other side of the Atlantic are anything like what's happening here. It's expected that an average Finn in their 20's will earn less than their parents did. The western middle class is dying.

Economics aside, I would say there's a clear trend which shows that western societies are again becoming less free and less democratic. Back in the early 1900's it was the conservative religious who were infringing with people's freedoms through all kind of nonsense like prohibition of alcohol, gambling and prostitution. Now it's social justice warriors and feminist radicals who are lobbying for same kind of nonsense everywhere in the western hemisphere, and unfortunately too many politicians listen them. France is the latest example of this regression.
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kngkyle
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:29 pm

Every successive American generation has proclaimed that America's best days are behind her and that the country is in decline. This goes back to the 1800's.

Yawn.
 
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Revelation
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:38 pm

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 10):
If you're not doing better than the average person was in 1956

You are missing the point. You did notice the word America in the title, right? It's about what America's position is relative to the rest of the world, it's not about the 'average person' or some such.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 10):
The number of people getting an education today is better than it was in the 50's.

There's so many variables in that statement. Number of people getting an education now is relative to US population now. Getting an education is relative to what kind of education the people in the US were getting then relative to outside the US and relative to the best education available anywhere in the world. Do you have any idea about what you are talking about with regard to the situation in the US in 1956? I know at that time a ton of universities had expanded tremendously due to the post-WWII GI Bill and were cranking out high quality graduates like crazy. Most of my profs in the early 80s were from that era. Nothing like that is going on now. I know, I have two cousins who are college profs at US public universities. The public universities favor foreign students because the university gets more per head for them than they do for in-state or regional students. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that leads to. Many of those students cheat like crazy, they seem to think getting the piece of paper matters instead of learning stuff or learning how to learn. Maybe they learned from the corruption of their homelands. One remnant of the Reagan era was he whacked public education because he felt it was turning out too many liberals. Hope I get a chance to urinate on his grave some day.

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 10):
fear of being killed by the Soviets

Interestingly enough Russia and many other actors still have enough ICBMs to lay waste to the earth, we just chose to not pay any attention to them these days. Why do you think that is?

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 10):
At least none of the colored folk had to lay in the convalescent home next to them as they died.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 12):
BMI are your future, ain't it rosey?

Are you referring to Bowel Movements, Intense?

Quoting Redd (Reply 14):
Just look at manufacturing in Germany or Sweden

Amazing what happens when you have a sensible way for young people to find a place in industry via apprenticeships. Another thing that Ronnie and his gang thought was seeding the word with liberals so it had to go. Capitalists were sick of having to pay to train people, they thought skilled workers just grew on trees.

Quoting Osubuckeyes (Reply 16):
I just find it ironic that someone posted on an aviation site that 1956 is better than now.

You also didn't read. The premise is that in 1956 the US's position in aviation was better relative to any other nation's position, not that all aviation in 1956 was better than all 2016 aviation. Makes me wonder what people learn at OSU...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:15 am

Quoting Redd (Reply 14):
In my opinion, what made America great was a strong blue collar middle class. A typical working man being able to afford a house, car, maybe a boat & a motorcycle or RV. It seemed for a while that poverty was going to be a thing of the past in the USA.

Most of those jobs for the blue collar middle class that can give enough income for a very decent material lifestyle have disappeared from the USA.

All those jobs are now overseas, but they didn't have to be. Just look at manufacturing in Germany or Sweden, the average wages in Norway for blue collar workers. Americans rag on unions, but they were a Godsend for Americans.



Well said, we now have one of the most corrupt not violent, nor murderous governments in the world. They allowed every bit of this situation to exist because of corporate greed. Our government enabled them and they have prospered while we certainly have not.
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vikkyvik
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:18 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
It's about what America's position is relative to the rest of the world, it's not about the 'average person' or some such.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
You also didn't read. The premise is that in 1956 the US's position in aviation was better relative to any other nation's position, not that all aviation in 1956 was better than all 2016 aviation. Makes me wonder what people learn at OSU...

Are you sure they're the ones who didn't read? I don't see that premise stated anywhere, and many of the things listed have little to do with the rest of the world.

Is America a better place today than it was back in 1956? Of course many Americans living right now couldn’t even imagine a world without cell phones, Facebook or cable television, but was life really so bad back then? 60 years ago, families would actually spend time on their front porches and people would actually have dinner with their neighbors. 60 years ago, cars were still cars, football was still football and it still meant something to be an American. In our country today, it is considered odd to greet someone as they are walking down the street, and if someone tries to be helpful it is usually because they want something from you. But things were very different in the middle of the last century. Men aspired to be gentlemen and women aspired to be ladies, and nobody had ever heard of “bling”, “sexting” or “twerking”. Of course life was far from perfect, but people actually had standards and they tried to live up to them.

I see very little in that introductory paragraph - or the subsequent list - about America compared to the rest of the world. Just America compared to itself.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
BMI727
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:36 am

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 10):
If you're not doing better than the average person was in 1956 you need to look inward rather than blaming others.

  

Quoting diverted (Reply 11):
I believe that was called "trickle down economics"

Have you felt any trickles? I just feel like I'm getting p*ssed on if that counts as a trickle...

Trickle down economics works. Those who say it doesn't have made a colossal mistake in that they looked up, saw a few people there and assumed they were on the bottom. Suffice to say, that was incorrect.

The American middle and lower classes thought they were the bottom but in reality were very much near the top. Trickle down economics worked wonders, but the trickle down was from the average Americans, not to them. It was trickle down economics that helped build the Japanese and Korean economies and is now helping to fuel the Chinese and Indian economies.

And, for that matter, we should think about the era around 1956 in a larger perspective. After WWII America was the last one standing. For the rest of the world, places that got lucky were pretty thoroughly destroyed by war and places that didn't get lucky were under Communism. There simply was no competition for the US.

Eventually the rest of the world got off the mat and started to catch up and compete. And it doesn't diminish the US to have competition, as has been pointed out life has objectively improved in pretty much every respect. The quality of American life is not enhanced by a Chinese person have a crappier life. The quality of life in the world as a whole has improved by leaps and bounds.

It's like after WWII the US was Wilt Chamberlain. He was the first seven footer in the game and put up huge numbers, some of which will likely never be eclipsed. Nobody in the era could measure up. Contrast that to today when most NBA teams have at least one player around that size, and many of them can run, jump and handle the ball in ways players in Chamberlain's era could only dream of. Saying that America peaked in 1956 is like saying that basketball peaked with Wilt Chamberlain, and neither is remotely true.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
People like BMI? Considering he's the only person I "know" who is close to my age or younger, and promotes the philosophy that he does, I truly doubt he's our future.

The young people getting educations, going to work hard and living a responsible lifestyle don't get publicity.

Quoting Redd (Reply 14):
In my opinion, what made America great was a strong blue collar middle class.

Good heavens. You're literally yearning for the good old days when it was okay to be stupid.

I hate participation trophies as much as the next guy but old farts wanting to go back to the days of walking out of school (graduate or otherwise), heading to the local factory/mill/mine and filling out a few papers to get a job for the next few decades have no room to talk. The reason there were no participation trophies back then was because participating and winning were the same thing. It used to be that showing up was good enough since there was no competition. That's changed, and it's awful hard to make the case that it's bad unless you are just lazy.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
The public universities favor foreign students because the university gets more per head for them than they do for in-state or regional students. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that leads to.

For one thing it leads to the American economy importing many of the world's smartest people and many of them do not return home.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
Many of those students cheat like crazy,

Sources please...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
You also didn't read. The premise is that in 1956 the US's position in aviation was better relative to any other nation's position, not that all aviation in 1956 was better than all 2016 aviation.

This is sheer idiocy. Please explain how an Indian not having electricity or a Chinese person not owning a car makes my life as an American better.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 1:49 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
Do you have any idea about what you are talking about with regard to the situation in the US in 1956? I know at that time a ton of universities had expanded tremendously due to the post-WWII GI Bill and were cranking out high quality graduates like crazy. Most of my profs in the early 80s were from that era. Nothing like that is going on now. I know, I have two cousins who are college profs at US public universities. The public universities favor foreign students because the university gets more per head for them than they do for in-state or regional students. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that leads to. Many of those students cheat like crazy, they seem to think getting the piece of paper matters instead of learning stuff or learning how to learn. Maybe they learned from the corruption of their homelands. One remnant of the Reagan era was he whacked public education because he felt it was turning out too many liberals. Hope I get a chance to urinate on his grave some day.

Once again. Amen Brother! It is funny how a concise accurate statement such as yours is ridiculed by those who are so typical of the know nothings who pretend they are not. Their words betray them so obviously. The defenders of the now status quo. Screw the people, screw the elderly who built what once was the greatest economy and middleclass the world has ever known. These Captains of Capitalism on here have built nothing, it was all built on blood and sacrifice long before they drew their first breath. It was built on hard work and a code of working hard by the workers to build a life better than their own was for their families, friends and country. Go Bernie!!!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
N415XJ
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:42 am

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 19):

Every successive American generation has proclaimed that America's best days are behind her and that the country is in decline. This goes back to the 1800's.

It goes back farther than that. I've read thousand-year-old documents written by old men complaining about how the new generation is terrible, the world is going to hell, and everything was better in their time. Nostalgia is as much of a human constant as love or anger.

This connects with why I think Trump's "Make America Great Again" slogan is so stupid. The United States is the most powerful empire in the history of mankind. Genghis Khan and Caesar wouldn't have dared to dream of holding the power the US does today. It has complete, absolute control of every ocean with undisputed military and economic superiority, the tools to watch and listen to everyone everywhere at any given time, and the ability monitor exactly what and how you're thinking. If the American government wants you dead, you will die. Globally, America has never been greater; no empire has. Domestic issues are an inevitable fact of life that will never go away, and even those are comparatively not as bad as they were in the past.

Also, to call a time when races were legally separated "better" is just silly.
 
johns624
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 2:53 am

Revelation, Redd and WarRI1 have some great posts in this thread. I have nothing to add...
 
vikkyvik
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:18 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 13):
People like BMI? Considering he's the only person I "know" who is close to my age or younger, and promotes the philosophy that he does, I truly doubt he's our future.

The young people getting educations, going to work hard and living a responsible lifestyle don't get publicity.

OK, but I'm talking about people I know or whose opinions I am privy to. Who are educated (or finishing their educations), working hard, and living responsible lifestyles. Myself included, ending sentences with prepositions notwithstanding.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Osubuckeyes
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:05 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
You also didn't read. The premise is that in 1956 the US's position in aviation was better relative to any other nation's position, not that all aviation in 1956 was better than all 2016 aviation. Makes me wonder what people learn at OSU...

The only lines I see in the article referencing the rest of the world are the among the last referencing loaned and owed money. Also this:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 22):
Are you sure they're the ones who didn't read? I don't see that premise stated anywhere, and many of the things listed have little to do with the rest of the world.

Is America a better place today than it was back in 1956? Of course many Americans living right now couldn’t even imagine a world without cell phones, Facebook or cable television, but was life really so bad back then? 60 years ago, families would actually spend time on their front porches and people would actually have dinner with their neighbors. 60 years ago, cars were still cars, football was still football and it still meant something to be an American. In our country today, it is considered odd to greet someone as they are walking down the street, and if someone tries to be helpful it is usually because they want something from you. But things were very different in the middle of the last century. Men aspired to be gentlemen and women aspired to be ladies, and nobody had ever heard of “bling”, “sexting” or “twerking”. Of course life was far from perfect, but people actually had standards and they tried to live up to them.

I see very little in that introductory paragraph - or the subsequent list - about America compared to the rest of the world. Just America compared to itself.

Of course I didn't go to OSU at all (originally from Ohio, lived there when I made this account). I went to Oregon and ASU who taught me to think critically and actually read the article that was linked (even if highly questionable source). Even still I would surmise that the US aviation industry as a whole is still quite a bit better than the rest of the world when comparing country to country, but that could be its own thread.
 
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Revelation
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:40 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 26):
Revelation, Redd and WarRI1 have some great posts in this thread. I have nothing to add...

I must say that this thread has some of my stronger and weaker content.

Upon review I see that I did key off what other posters here were writing more so than the linked article, and then accused others of misreading when I was doing so to a large degree. Thanks to those who pointed that out and apologies to those I accused.

However I do think there's a lot of merit to the idea that the US of 1956 had a lot of things going for it relative to other nations in 1956 as well as to the US of today, in particular with regard to college and vocational education.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):

Trickle down economics works. Those who say it doesn't have made a colossal mistake in that they looked up, saw a few people there and assumed they were on the bottom. Suffice to say, that was incorrect.

The American middle and lower classes thought they were the bottom but in reality were very much near the top. Trickle down economics worked wonders, but the trickle down was from the average Americans, not to them. It was trickle down economics that helped build the Japanese and Korean economies and is now helping to fuel the Chinese and Indian economies.

That's not how Reaganites of the 80s like David Stockman told us how it works. Nice of you to find yet another rationalization that allows you to suggest that rampant capitalism works in every circumstance. You seem to have a lot invested in the idea that capitalism is flawless.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
The public universities favor foreign students because the university gets more per head for them than they do for in-state or regional students. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what that leads to.

For one thing it leads to the American economy importing many of the world's smartest people and many of them do not return home.

Yet many do just come here to tick the box that the employers back home pay so much for, and IMHO we'd be much better off if we'd reward public US universities the same for taking US students as opposed to international ones. The universities don't make a stink about it because they realize there is no appetite for providing the funds to remedy the situation, and the likely outcome of any complaining would be less funding rather than more.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 20):
Many of those students cheat like crazy,

Sources please...

As I already mentioned, two cousins that are college professors at two different universities, and two more friends that work at universities, and one episode I saw with my own eyes where three international students worked as a team to steal the work of another student. It happened so quickly I couldn't catch them in the act, but I did warn the ring leader that I had my eyes on him and he better not pull that stuff ever again.

Do you know any actual college professors who trust you enough to talk to you without the need to filter what they say? I do, and what they say is both shocking and depressing.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
coolian2
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Fri Apr 08, 2016 4:56 pm

Bill Bryson: One Summer, America 1927.

All I'm saying.
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BMI727
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:21 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
That's not how Reaganites of the 80s like David Stockman told us how it works. Nice of you to find yet another rationalization that allows you to suggest that rampant capitalism works in every circumstance. You seem to have a lot invested in the idea that capitalism is flawless.

Do you deny that capitalism and trickle down economics have helped lift millions, if not billions, out of poverty?

And, by the way, you should make that case to those workers who are getting laid off from Caterpillar largely because of the slowdown in the Chinese economy.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
Yet many do just come here to tick the box that the employers back home pay so much for, and IMHO we'd be much better off if we'd reward public US universities the same for taking US students as opposed to international ones.

Some of them do go back home but even in those cases they've spent several years contributing to the American economy. One of the biggest factors that made and kept America a superpower was importing intelligent workers from around the world. And, for universities that want to 1) keep themselves financially healthy and 2) enhance their prestige and academic reputation, why would they turn away exceptional foreign students?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
The universities don't make a stink about it because they realize there is no appetite for providing the funds to remedy the situation, and the likely outcome of any complaining would be less funding rather than more.

I'm sure the GI Bill will match whatever the foreigners pay.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
As I already mentioned, two cousins that are college professors at two different universities, and two more friends that work at universities, and one episode I saw with my own eyes where three international students worked as a team to steal the work of another student.

So purely anecdotal then.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
WIederling
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 11:44 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Trickle down economics works. Those who say it doesn't have made a colossal mistake in that they looked up, saw a few people there and assumed they were on the bottom. Suffice to say, that was incorrect.

No.
The times of good overall economics and prosperity all happened in a high taxation environment.
see forex http://www.epi.org/publication/ib364...ate-tax-rates-and-economic-growth/
Low corporate taxation killed the middle class. ( Look at the US today. ... and other nations are following.
)

Reagan was a grave digger for the American Idea.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:39 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Do you deny that capitalism and trickle down economics have helped lift millions, if not billions, out of poverty?

I assert that trickle down economics did not do what Stockman and the other Reaganites said it would do in the 1980s. You keep changing the topic, that's on you, I'm not playing your game.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
One of the biggest factors that made and kept America a superpower was importing intelligent workers from around the world. And, for universities that want to 1) keep themselves financially healthy and 2) enhance their prestige and academic reputation, why would they turn away exceptional foreign students?

The point is it should be (and still could become) an even playing field and it isn't.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
So purely anecdotal then.

Yes, absolutely. You're not likely going to find a definitive study of cheating for the obvious reasons.

Care to share any studies that support your position, and/or any experiences you've had with the rigorously honest international students you've studied with or taught?

Quoting WIederling (Reply 32):
Reagan was a grave digger for the American Idea.

  

Much like the current right wing ideologs, their first move is to tear down things that they fear undermine their ideology, no matter what the social costs end up being.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
zhiao
Posts: 479
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 3:54 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 32):
No.
The times of good overall economics and prosperity all happened in a high taxation environment.
see forex http://www.epi.org/publication/ib364...ate-tax-rates-and-economic-growth/
Low corporate taxation killed the middle class. ( Look at the US today. ... and other nations are following.
)

Reagan was a grave digger for the American Idea.

2015 ended with Median household income is at an all time time as double what it was in the 50's, get your facts straight.


http://www.sentierresearch.com/repor...s_Report_February2016_03_31_16.pdf
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 4:16 pm

Quoting zhiao (Reply 34):
Quoting WIederling (Reply 32):
No.
The times of good overall economics and prosperity all happened in a high taxation environment.
see forex http://www.epi.org/publication/ib364...ate-tax-rates-and-economic-growth/
Low corporate taxation killed the middle class. ( Look at the US today. ... and other nations are following.
)

Reagan was a grave digger for the American Idea.

2015 ended with Median household income is at an all time time as double what it was in the 50's, get your facts straight.


http://www.sentierresearch.com/repor...6.pdf

It is the MEDIAN household income, it is the average income over ALL households, it doesn't say anything about the distribution of the wealth, so you have few households, which's income increased disproportionally, while a large number's income actually dropped. Plus it doesn't say anything about the buying power of the income (which actually decreased since the 1950s).

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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pu
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 5:16 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
It is the MEDIAN household income, it is the average income over ALL households,


No.

Median and average are two different things.

The median number indicates where exactly the 50% percentile is. In other words, 50% of America's households make more than their impressive median income figure.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
doesn't say anything about the distribution of the wealt

Wrong.
It says quite a bit about wealth distribution : it tells you the financial situation of half the households in America in rough terms, half make more and half make less.

Median incone is the most meaningful national income figure and wealth distribution is much less relevant in America because the US economy is so large. 300 million Americans are sharing the same wealth as 500 million+ EUropeans.....the government's official household poverty line in the US is equal to the median household income in many European countries.

Poor people in America make as much as middle-class people in half of Europe.




Pu.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 6:10 pm

Question is how much time a week do they have to work for it? Two jobs, 16 hours a day, like my Ex in CA?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
BMI727
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 7:49 pm

Quoting WIederling (Reply 32):
No.
The times of good overall economics and prosperity all happened in a high taxation environment.

That's a different thing than "happened because of a high taxation environment." Taxation and regulation is economic friction - anything that works in a high tax environment would work better in a low tax environment.

The so-called "socialist success stories" are mostly epilogues to capitalist success stories.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
The point is it should be (and still could become) an even playing field and it isn't.

Why would a university, or a business for that matter, take on an American that is inferior to a foreigner?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Yes, absolutely. You're not likely going to find a definitive study of cheating for the obvious reasons

Come back when you find some objective evidence.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
Care to share any studies that support your position, and/or any experiences you've had with the rigorously honest international students you've studied with or taught?

I'm not the one making assertions about the honesty and ability of foreign students.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
Plus it doesn't say anything about the buying power of the income (which actually decreased since the 1950s).

That's probably not going to help your case considering that computers have gone from something that a university or government agency might be able to fit into one room to something that pretty much everyone carries in their pocket.

Oh, and the people who long for a return to the sufficiency of mediocrity might find this article interesting:
http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/...turing-jobs-are-never-coming-back/
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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fallap
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sat Apr 09, 2016 9:16 pm

"In 1956, about 5 percent of all babies in America were born to unmarried parents.

In 2016, more than 40 percent of all babies in America will be born to unmarried parents."

There you have it folks, nothing but senseless reactionary rambling by a conservative mummy, who's been watching too many James Dean and Humprey Bogart movies - and who's read too few articles and books about the given period.

Oh, and that whole ridiculous grasping at straws to portray an imaginary, romantic, and in every way perfect picture of America in the 1950's; is mindboggling to say the least.

Is this guy part of Donald Trump's crew? Because I could swear, it sounds like something Mr. Trump would yell out to the masses at one of his many rallies.

Were the 1950's really that great? I guess so, unless of course you happened to be

- Female
- Homosexual
- a non-believer
- a Socialist
- Suffering from Polio
- Suffering from various illnesses that are treatable today
- Black

[Edited 2016-04-09 14:30:12]
Ex grease monkey buried head to toe inside an F-16M
Now studying Political Science
 
zhiao
Posts: 479
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 4:52 am

RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sun Apr 10, 2016 12:46 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
Question is how much time a week do they have to work for it? Two jobs, 16 hours a day, like my Ex in CA?

Only 5% of Americans hold two jobs, Fact.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 35):
It is the MEDIAN household income, it is the average income over ALL households, it doesn't say anything about the distribution of the wealth, so you have few households, which's income increased disproportionally, while a large number's income actually dropped. Plus it doesn't say anything about the buying power of the income (which actually decreased since the 1950s).

Do you know what median means? It means the middle, so YES, it tells us alot. Also, its adjusted for inflation, which means it takes into account buying power. I repeat: all time high, and MUCH higher than the 50's.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:31 am

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1...-of-full-time-employees-in-the-us/

This link shows 123. 5 million fulltime jobs. If your figure of 5% working two jobs is accurate. that means that 6.15 million fulltime workers do just that. We are not even talking about part time workers working 2 jobs and sometime three jobs to survive. 6,5 million is a lot of people to me and is not to be laughed off lightly. Combine the two groups and that shows that all is not sweetness and light now. I sure hope my math is correct. Please let me know if it is not.   
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
zhiao
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:19 am

^So it's less than 5%, thanks for the info. Combine what two groups, btw? Do you realize that more than half of part-timers do it out of choice?
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:46 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 42):
^So it's less than 5%, thanks for the info. Combine what two groups, btw? Do you realize that more than half of part-timers do it out of choice?

It is still multi millions working to survive. I do not know many people who work multi jobs for the hell of it. Do you? As far as the part timers, multi millions working for slave wages and not out of choice. Maybe in your world they just love to be exploited, not in mine.
Go Bernie!

[Edited 2016-04-09 20:47:33]
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
zhiao
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:03 am

I know many women who choose to work part time actually
 
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WarRI1
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RE: 1956: America Peaked

Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:20 am

Quoting zhiao (Reply 44):
know many women who choose to work part time actually

I have a daughter who does, but I am not talking about well off people. I am talking about the millions who do work multi-jobs, but not by choice. I am speaking for the millions who are not qualified enough to earn high wages, but still must survive. I am speaking of the millions who work because of losing their former jobs which paid well, but now are too old to start new careers, so they work for low wages to survive, to keep what they have. I am speaking of the exploiters of illegals who pay low wages to those who are defenseless and need the work to survive.


The Golden Goose has been butchered by corporations, leaving many millions struggling to keep what little they have. Millions of factory workers who have nothing but SS are working way beyond retirement age to feed and cloth themselves. I see it everyday everywhere. Waitress's, Lowes, Home Depot workers. 1956 was not great, but there were many jobs for the uneducated, for the average person. All overseas now, the blue collar jobs on which the middleclass was built.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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