Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:13 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 199):
The bible is like a set of instructions for stupid people who want to believe in something,

If that's the case, then it should move with the times. Instructions which were sensible 1500 years ago may very well be nonsensical now. The instructions should be adapted over time.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 199):
The best idea is to kick religion to the gutter and forget about it, there really is no place for believeing in fairy stories in this age.

Personally I agree, at least for those in the developed world. I think in less developed countries it can have benefits. However either way I think it'll be around for a while, so the more diluted it is, the better IMO.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4329
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:23 pm

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 189):
As a Christian you choose some opinions in preference to others.

but everybody does that, I have preferences of opinions. Why the need to match them up with similar opinions in a book.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 200):
If that's the case, then it should move with the times. Instructions which were sensible 1500 years ago may very well be nonsensical now. The instructions should be adapted over time.

what, you mean like laws?

Fred
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:26 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 201):
what, you mean like laws?

Precisely like laws, yes.
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:53 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 201):
Why the need to match them up with similar opinions in a book.

The opinions may have come from a book in the first place or have been influenced by it. Even in other areas of life people refer to books, online resources and other media to either reinforce an argument or obtain a guide to action. This occurs in fields as diverse as history and politics through to business and manufacturing. Why would one expect it to be any different when it comes to religion? It is after all is said and done, just another area of human activity.

In relation to the original topic, I have consistently held the view that Christians can not rely on the Bible in arguing support for same sex marriage (a right that I support.) In biblical terms the opponents win hands down because there is absolutely nothing in the bible that says, "Let he/ she that is among you who wishes to marry his/ her brother/ sister do so." There is plenty arguing the opposite. Christ may have said, "Love one another, as I have loved you," but he is nowhere reported as saying, "Marry one another."

I personally don't see a need for it but I respect the right of others to profess a religious faith if they so wish. That doesn't necessarily mean especting the ideas themselves.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:11 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 200):
The instructions should be adapted over time

By who. Who is pure enough amongst us, to interpreted these verse into modern day reality.?

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 200):
I think in less developed countries it can have benefits.

Unfortuabtly no, this is where they do most damage to people who have yet to develop there own ideals that they can choose instead of following the lead sheep.
 
zrs70
Posts: 3829
Joined: Sun Dec 10, 2000 4:08 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:19 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 199):
The best idea is to kick religion to the gutter and forget about it, there really is no place for believeing in fairy stories in this age.

But religion is about so much more than believing in stories.... It's also about how we treat one another.

Mind you - many religions preach violence. But that said, many secular people can't engage in nice civil discourse.

For an example, just look at how people on this board often talk to one another!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14741
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:46 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 205):
It's also about how we treat one another.

And yet a nation following the man that said "love your enemy" has Guantanamo....
Apparently Religion teaches people who to misstreat w/o feeling bad about it.

In this or the other thread someone actually argued that he wants a law that forces transgendered people into a place where he would, by his own admission, beat the crap out of them.

Religion is a infection which presentation is harmless in most victims. What are the feared converts? Just people infected with religion....

Best regards
Thomas
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4329
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:43 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 205):
It's also about how we treat one another.

you don't need religion to be a nice person.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 205):
Mind you - many religions preach violence. But that said, many secular people can't engage in nice civil discourse

which suggests that religion makes bigger-all difference, dick bags will be dick bags religious or not.

Fred
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:39 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 207):
you don't need religion to be a nice person

You don't need a mirror to fasten your tie or comb your hair but people still use them.

If it makes them happy and don't demand that others do likewise, where is the harm?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14741
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:13 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 208):
where is the harm?

Ask someone in Ruanda. The side effects are the harm.

Best regards
Thomas
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:33 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 209):
The side effects are the harm.

What side effects can there be from
Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 208):
and don't demand that others do likewise
?

Problems only arise when people seek to impose their beliefs on others against their will and that applies not just to religion.

Countries have been bombed, invaded and governments overthrown, all in the name of "bringing civilisation", "freedom" and "democracy" but really in the furtherance of economic or strategic interests. Does that make the ideals of freedom and democracy inherently bad?
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:41 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 206):
Religion is a infection which presentation is harmless in most victims. What are the feared converts? Just people infected with religion....

Beautifully said !

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 208):
where is the harm?

Religion has caused much angst, untold killings, not to mention wars throughout history, its not funny.

I think theres not much fun in that.

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 210):
Problems only arise when people seek to impose their beliefs on others against their will and that applies not just to religion.

And thats exactly what religion causes, judgement.

People to impose their beliefs are better , so you need to adopt them.
 
WearyDrover
Posts: 659
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:12 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:55 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 211):
People to impose their beliefs are better , so you need to adopt them.

That already happens without religion. Sometimes we are fortunate and we might get to vote on it, sometimes not. It's called politics and allows one part of society to impose its views on another.

Pertinant to the issue of same sex marriage, that is what Howard did when he amended the Marriage Act to change the definition. It is what will happen whatever the outcome of the proposed plebiscite. One part of society will get to impose its view on another and it might not be the most affected by the outcome who will benefit.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14741
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:58 am

Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 210):
What side effects can there be from
Quoting WearyDrover (Reply 208):
and don't demand that others do likewise
?


lets just say that from 1- to +1 you have decent, pleasant people, from +1 to +2 you have people that are good enough for other people to notice that they are good, from -1 to -2 you have unpleasant, selfish people, from +2 tp +3 you have very good people with the far corner being saints, from -2 to -3 you have the fundamentalists with the far corner being willing to kill for their religion.

Religiously motivated violence is a side effect of religion, and the only way to reduce that is to reduce the number of religious people. The peak will be more to the left or right depending on your religion, but regardless what you believe, you will always have extremists.

Religion is a bit like Herpes simplex genitalis, many people have that without suffering symptoms, but other people will suffer and no matter how symptom free you are, you can still infect others. If you contracted religion, please use a condom or stay abstinent.

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6203
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:56 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 200):
If that's the case, then it should move with the times. Instructions which were sensible 1500 years ago may very well be nonsensical now. The instructions should be adapted over time.

There are newer translations - like the first "Schulbibel" I had. It re-tells the Bible in a condensed, more readable way. But as it is with translations, every translation has a specific goal in mind. You want to be as close as possible to the original? Buy an interlinear translation. This is an example: http://interlinearbooks.com/blog/wp-...nterlinear-Translation-Example.png

There are bibles that have been translated with gender equality in mind. Translation is a serious business, and if you fudge the translations up, you change the message. It's the same with the US constitution - "Living Constitution" versus originalism. What would Jesus think of abortion? What would Jesus think of shop owners that refuse to serve homosexuals?

Well, how to solve the problem?

Seligman once made a large inquiry in what ideals and values are shared among all cultures on earth. There are six of them which are nearly universally found:

Wisdom and Knowledge (e.g. curiosity, explaining things to others)
Courage
Humanity (being kind and loving)
Justice
Temperance
Transcendence (e.g. sense of gratitude, maintaining hope, forgiveness)

So, we already have a set of values which are interchangeably the same, whether one is Hindu, Christian, American Indian or whatever. We can do away with religion.


David
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24175
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:02 pm

This thread is starting to remind me of the episode of "South Park" where all Cartman wants is the newest video game console that comes out in six months but ends up centuries in the future.....
 
N1120A
Posts: 27010
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:59 pm

This thread is still going on?

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 68):
Huh?? I mean, he TALKS a lot, but what's he actually ACCOMPLISHED in that regard?

All the Pope can do is talk, really. His word is supposed to be law. He has acted by firing certain hardliners, including the idiot who brought Kim Davis in for an audience.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 85):

So, a civil marriage is ensuring religious freedom IMHO.

Excellent point.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22289
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:12 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 214):
It's the same with the US constitution - "Living Constitution" versus originalism.

Not really. The US Constitution is written in English, and while the English language has drifted since the 1790s (as do all languages), the original language is quite intelligible today.

The issue with the Constitution is its interpretation and there is has a parallel with the Bible.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 204):
By who. Who is pure enough amongst us, to interpreted these verse into modern day reality.?

Anybody who can convince enough other people to agree with them. Just as with a business, you have to be a good marketer.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 204):
Unfortuabtly no, this is where they do most damage to people who have yet to develop there own ideals that they can choose instead of following the lead sheep.

Everybody can choose their ideals, and their religion. Religion and ideals have existed in the developing world for just as they have anywhere else. Religion doesn't have the power that you think it has- murderers will still murder, and those who are non-violent will still be non-violent. Otherwise what you're really saying is that everybody in the developing world is just a blank canvas, which is not very enlightened I would say.

I used to believe the same as you, that religion is terrible and atheism is awesome, but I spent a long time working in Tanzania, and talked to a lot of people who drew great comfort from their faith. I can't understand it personally, but I don't doubt its positive effects for a second.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24175
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:29 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 218):
I can't understand it personally, but I don't doubt its positive effects for a second.

There are a number of people who do have faith, whether they be Muslim or Christian or Jew or what have you. They believe in church and state being separate. I am one of those. My faith is mine and should not be forced on others and should not be legislated.
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 218):
Otherwise what you're really saying is that everybody in the developing world is just a blank canvas

In a way yes. Just look at the missionaries sent to far flung places all those decades ago, to convert the local peoples in to whatever religion they're were pushing. Some of them hardly had a grasp of english, let alone a true understanding and reasoning of the "good book", yet these people were easy targets, venerable and completely open to be taken advantage off, and in many case I think they were, completely.

I understand that there are people who gain much from their faith , and thats not a bad thing, whatever it was that they might be gaining.... Im not so sure really.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 219):
There are a number of people who do have faith, whether they be Muslim or Christian or Jew or what have you. They believe in church and state being separate. I am one of those. My faith is mine and should not be forced on others and should not be legislated.

  
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11608
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:56 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 214):
the US constitution - "Living Constitution" versus originalism.

I find people who think it was to be "fixed" silly, and equally so those that think it must be interpreted "originally".
1. It was crafted by people that believed in editing the Bible. And it is obvious they had this view as they fled another tyrannical vision of how a bible or religion should by constructed and followed.
2. The people who drafted it are no longer around, and it was drafted by a convention of people with a variety of beliefs. The "original" intent and interpretation of each member that formed the consensus can never be known. We can only try our best.

Tugg
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12695
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Tue Apr 19, 2016 7:53 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 160):
Quoting Tugger (Reply 146):
Just for your reference... since 2010–present:

It only shows that making the choice to remove the penis off was a mistake for these people. Some of them also made poor career choices, hooking isn't exactly a safe profession.

Ah, so it's their fault they were killed. Wonderful point of view.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 171):
why doesn't religion get out of it? Have a ceremony with all the fairies and whatever but leave the important bit to people who don't decide that someone can't take part because of some tools who want to rule by fear.

Why should religions stop marrying people? I don't give two craps if people want to get married in a church.

Quoting afcjets (Reply 184):
I am not sure why people insist the mystery of all of creation be reduced to what the human mind can comprehend.

Oh, the irony, given that that's exactly what religion does.

Also, do you completely understand the Big Bang? I sure don't. Stephen Hawking probably doesn't understand everything about it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 185):
It is much easier for the average human mind to attribute it to a sky father figure or a fairytale, hence why all religious creation stories are based on such an idea since the beginning of recorded history.

  

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 211):
Religion has caused much angst, untold killings, not to mention wars throughout history, its not funny.

While true, if religion didn't exist, we would have fought over something else.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24175
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:05 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 222):
Why should religions stop marrying people? I don't give two craps if people want to get married in a church.

I don't either but it needs to be understood that when government allows two consenting adults to sign those papers, religious people should not start screaming about how they are victims and persecuted and start enacting legislation to make themselves above the law.

That's another thing: When did Christianity and Christians become a persecuted and shunned group that needs special rights above and beyond those of us asking for equal rights? Why do Christians and Christianity need to be above everyone else?
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22289
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:37 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 223):

That's another thing: When did Christianity and Christians become a persecuted and shunned group that needs special rights above and beyond those of us asking for equal rights? Why do Christians and Christianity need to be above everyone else?

As soon as they weren't able to run governments and persecute all dissenters.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12695
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:27 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 223):
I don't either but it needs to be understood that when government allows two consenting adults to sign those papers, religious people should not start screaming about how they are victims and persecuted and start enacting legislation to make themselves above the law.

Since my comment was a follow-on of my original comment about the government getting out of the marriage business, that wouldn't be a concern.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 22289
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:37 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 225):

Since my comment was a follow-on of my original comment about the government getting out of the marriage business, that wouldn't be a concern.

"Government out of the marriage business" is a pipe dream.

Marriage is an important CIVIL contract. It means: My property becomes my husband's unless a prenuptial agreement says otherwise. It means that I automatically become his next of kin and have power of attorney. It means that if he is unconscious and unable to make his own medical decisions, I make them for him. It means that I get the right to visit him in a hospital. It means that if we have any children, under most state laws, we are both automatically parents. In fact, here is a list of rights and responsibilities that come with marriage. If he dies, I get his property tax-free and vice-versa. If we "get the government out of the marriage business," then there is no mechanism to grant any of these things. Here's a complete list in the US: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights_..._of_marriages_in_the_United_States

Now, some of these might be dispensed with, but most are considered part and parcel of marriage in just about every legal system.

So if your response is that we could keep all of those rights and responsibilities and just rename "marriage" to "civil partnership," then the entire point is that you just don't want gay people having access to "marriage" and your only recourse is to remove it for everyone, which is really petty and frankly doesn't change the situation in any material sense. We have better things to be doing with our laws.

So you'll forgive me if I'm sick of "government out of marriage business." Marriage *IS* the government's business because the government's business is to regulate matters of civil law.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12695
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:14 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 226):
"Government out of the marriage business" is a pipe dream.

I'm well aware of that. If you trace the conversation back, you'll note I'm not the one who originally said it. I'd love the government to get out of the marriage business, but that's not possible by any stretch of imagination.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 226):
So if your response is that we could keep all of those rights and responsibilities and just rename "marriage" to "civil partnership," then the entire point is that you just don't want gay people having access to "marriage" and your only recourse is to remove it for everyone, which is really petty and frankly doesn't change the situation in any material sense.

I'm surprised - I've always been very much in support of gay marriage, to the point that I can't even understand why it's such an issue.

So no, that's not remotely close to my response.

Marriage is simply a word, as I've stated before. Eight letters in a certain order. Pursuant to that, as long as everyone has the right to a civil contract governing the things you listed, I don't give a rat's ass whether it's called "marriage", "civil union", "civil partnership", "people who have sex and do other stuff together", or whatever else.

And anyway, you yourself said it was just a name:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 86):
It's a name. Civil union or marriage mean the same thing, so why does that name matter?

(as it happens, you were responding to the exact same post I originally responded to)
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 12168
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:37 am

Continue discussion in Part 2

God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages Part 2 (by qf789 Apr 20 2016 in Non Aviation)
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6203
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: God Never Planned For Same Sex Marriages

Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 227):
Pursuant to that, as long as everyone has the right to a civil contract governing the things you listed

I just fear that courts won't honor these contracts, because... the religious "sensibilities" of the population could be affected. For example, in Swiss civil law all contracts are fully valid as long as they don't result in the violation of any law - and hold up to "moral" standards, whatever they are.

Just an example for what can happen then - it's a real Supreme Court case in Switzerland, 1965: Customers of sex workers did not have to pay for a long time - because any contract for sexual services is void for "moral" reasons. In the very same case, the court found no problems with creditors impounding her dirty future pay. So she had to cough up money she was not allowed to have to begin with.

Yes, courts still operate on moral standards, and that's a reason why a civil contract between two partners can be a very dangerous thing.

The SCOTUS ruled in Hobby Lobby that employers don't have to pay insurance schemes which allow for birth control. Religious freedom. An employer opting out of certain insurance schemes has, IMHO, a much worse impact than a man (or a woman) marrying a handful of mixed-sex spouses.


David

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: casinterest, FlapOperator, galapagapop, luckyone, seb146, SESGDL and 33 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos