Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:44 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
it seems the Chancellor has a lot more independence and power than does a US President.

depends on the area. No war powers, no executive orders, no signing laws....

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
The reality is that the Cabinet officers have a lot of independence,

A cabinet officer can´t even resign here. They can only ask to be let go.... the chancellor can´t dismiss them either. Only the president can.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
If they had a mild disagreement they'd try to work it out within the Cabinet and would not go public with the disagreement.

They work for us. A cabinet shouldn´t be a black box that pretends to be all hugs & puppies. As a citizen i have the god damn right to stay informed about processes within the government within reason, and most certainly if there is disagreement.

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26723
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:04 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 50):

They work for us. A cabinet shouldn´t be a black box that pretends to be all hugs & puppies. As a citizen i have the god damn right to stay informed about processes within the government within reason, and most certainly if there is disagreement.

Thanks again for the explanation. In the US, the Cabinet works for the President. We expect them to work as a team. They're the ones that are supposed to be dealing with the immediate and short term issues so they can't be a debating society. We expect Congress to set the long term direction by yanking on the budget strings and writing the laws. We expect them to bash out the long term issues, but these days they've decided the safest course for themselves is to do nothing.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 51):
We expect Congress to set the long term direction by yanking on the budget strings and writing the laws.

Basically the same here, since the Chancellor gets elected, and can be dismissed, by parliament. We only vote for Parliament, all powers are with them. The Chancellor/Cabinet is basically just executing the parliaments, and therefore (well, at least in theory) the peoples, will. In that sense our Chancellor is more like a CEO of a company. She runs the show, but it isn´t her business or her money.
On the plus side, our government has a pretty good chance of having parliament pass the laws they propose. German democracy 2.0 puts a lot of effort into preventing stalemate in politics, a lesson well learned from attempt 1.0.

best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:21 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 45):
I'm quite sure that for the last two weeks Merkel and her staff had been working to get a less confrontational solution,

Yes, surely, but as I am asking above, I wonder if is she working as hard to make sure her own government is in agreement? Isn't the public disagreement a big problem or is it normal and expected? I don't think I'm going to find that answer reading the German Constitution.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 49):
Ok, that explains a lot to me. In the US our Ministers form the Cabinet and are all appointed by the President with approval of Congress. Almost all are members of the President's party and since their appointment happens right after the President's election it's rare for Congress to not approve. It is customary for the President to take one or two Cabinet members from the other party for some of the less important Cabinet positions, but these officials need to toe the Administration line or find themselves in danger of being kicked out. Since their own party enjoys the visibility that they get via the position they also will not support an official who objects publicly to Administration policy. Our Executive branch is largely a one party operation. Of course Congress and the Judiciary keep the Executive in check.

Over he last decade Merkel has moved her conservative CDU towards the center, and partially into territory, which was formerly the sole position of the center-left Social Democrats, while at the same time the Greens and the Linkspartei ("Party of the Left", a re-incarnation of the old East German communist party SED) have been poaching on their left flank. The Social Democrats need to show that they are sometimes opposing Merkel, as in many aspects Merkel is actually doing what they would do as well. Of course the right wing of Merkel's party often does not agree with her moving the party leftwards towards the center and many left to join the more to the nationalistic right AfD (with a fluid border towards Neo-Nazis).

I understand that Merkel considered joining the Social Democrats many years ago, but was put off by some of their customs, like using first names to adress each other, calling each other "Genosse" (comrade) and singing worker's movement songs on their party meetings (which they do due to their origin as a worker's party closely connected to the trade union movement. They are Germany's oldest political party, with a history reaching back to the mid 19th century, but they got rid of Marxism back in the 1950s, and as democratic reformers, as opposed to the communist revolutionaries, they were the arch enemy of the communists). These customs reminded Merkel too much of the old East German communists. But politically she is often more connected with the centrist wing of the Social Democrats than with the right (nationalist and entrepreneur) wings of her own party.

I think that the parties play a much bigger role in Europe than in the US.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):

I'm definitely not trying to make this about the USA, I'm just trying to understand the differences, but I'll point out that many US Presidents get their offices by trying to project power. JFK claimed Ike (of all people) was weak and let a 'bomber gap' emerge. Meanwhile Ike had all the pictures from the U2 and knew there was no such gap but could not explain that publicly. Ronald Reagan of course made the projection of power the main element of his campaigns, as did GWB.

I give you an example: I have a neighbour with Nazi affiliations. Once I have overheard him and his friends discussing politics while working in my garden (they were having a barbeque behind the hedge, which separates the two gardens). The opinion was that parliament and democratic politicians are just talking and that e need a strong leader with authoritarian emergency powers to rule the country wih a firm hand and that anybody opposing him should be thrown into jail, or worse, executed as a traitor.

Jan
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 26723
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:33 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 52):
German democracy 2.0 puts a lot of effort into preventing stalemate in politics, a lesson well learned from attempt 1.0.

Good observation. Seems us in the US will need to find a better way to avoid stalemate.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 53):
I think that the parties play a much bigger role in Europe than in the US.

Yes, we are so steadfastly a two party system. It will be really interesting to see how the GOP deals with Trump going forward, both sides need each other yet hate each other at the same time.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 53):
I have a neighbour with Nazi affiliations. Once I have overheard him and his friends discussing politics while working in my garden (they were having a barbeque behind the hedge, which separates the two gardens). The opinion was that parliament and democratic politicians are just talking and that e need a strong leader with authoritarian emergency powers to rule the country wih a firm hand and that anybody opposing him should be thrown into jail, or worse, executed as a traitor.

I can imagine that conversation happening in every country in the world, yet every totalitarian dictatorship everywhere ends up in catastrophe.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:35 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
Isn't the public disagreement a big problem or is it normal and expected?

Depends on the magnitude. We want disagreement, because it means that the cabinet is not just made up of yes sayers and that the policies we have are the result of an actual discourse. We don´t want those disagreements to be fundamental when it comes important short term policy decisions, because that makes the government seem unstable. On a one off issue like this, they may disagree all they like.
Another just recent disagreement was about the use of Army forces in the interior. Merkel says "we have to think about it", Gabriel, head of the social democratic party, pretty much said, in the same press conference, sitting next to each other "there will be no discussion about the issue, period".

best regards
Thomas

[Edited 2016-04-16 13:24:29]
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 54):
Good observation. Seems us in the US will need to find a better way to avoid stalemate.

well, took a dictatorship, a world war, millions of dead people, billions over billions in property damage....... be wise, learn from other peoples mistakes  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54):
I can imagine that conversation happening in every country in the world, yet every totalitarian dictatorship everywhere ends up in catastrophe.

I guess people saying stuff like that always assume the strong leader implements the policies they like and are mighty surprised when the secret police turns up on their doorstep....

best regards
Thomas
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:13 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 56):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54):
I can imagine that conversation happening in every country in the world, yet every totalitarian dictatorship everywhere ends up in catastrophe.

I guess people saying stuff like that always assume the strong leader implements the policies they like and are mighty surprised when the secret police turns up on their doorstep....

or the "benevolent" dictator turns out to be corrupt barsteward, filling his pockets and those of his cronies (Erdogan, Putin, I can see what you are doing).

In Turkey Atatürk is generally respected, even though he ruled the country for most of the time in a fairly authoritarian way (To be fair, he tried a few times to loosen the reigns, but this led to chaos and he considered Turkey not to be ready yet for full democracy at the time, in the 1930s. He was quoted that he would prefer a true multi party democratic system). He is respected because he never personally profited from his rule, leading a fairly modest lifestyle, the high respect he had for his mother, and his role as a war hero (maybe the most successful of the Ottoman Empire generals, who both beat the British and ANZAC troops in the Dardanelles and later the Allied and Greek troops, which wanted to carve up Turkey).

Jan
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:49 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 34):
If belongs at whatever time they want to air it on whatever channel they want to show it.

Says who?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:52 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 58):

Says who?

Any freedom of expression law worthy of its name.

Best regards
Thomas
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:10 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 59):
Any freedom of expression law worthy of its name.

That's why they make chocolate and vanilla.

Many don't see the need to have to explain goat fucking to 5 year olds because some jackass has a point to make over public airways. There is no absolute free speech, you certainly don't have it in Germany.
 
N415XJ
Posts: 910
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:04 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:57 am

In case anyone missed Neo Magazin that night, here is the full show. The part with the poem starts at 10:50, and the poem itself around 13:30. Only in German, no English subtitles (but there are Turkish subtitles, amusingly): https://vimeo.com/161272558

[Edited 2016-04-16 17:58:48]
 
User avatar
TWA772LR
Posts: 7704
Joined: Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:12 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
Erdogan plays the same card Hitler, Stalin, Putin, the North Korean Kims and Mao played and play

And you see political cartoons about them all the way from their era to today. There's even people making fun of everyone else today, so Erdogan is no different. He is not divine, so he can sit down and shut up.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14664
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:22 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 60):


Many don't see the need to have to explain goat fucking to

I dot think kids have the right to watch any tv station at any time. Parents decide what their kids see. Parents don't decide what adults see.
But I see... the Fans of small government really love the nanny state.
It is legal to say goat fucking, hence it should be legal on tv.


Quoting mham001 (Reply 60):
There is no absolute free speech, you certainly don't have it in Germany.

This is well outside the realm of free speech and well within the range of censorship.

Best regards
Thomas
 
TheCommodore
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:44 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 4):
I don't exactly get why such a law would possibly exist in any country that generally likes to represent itself as a liberal democracy.

You should see some of the laws in the US.... Land of freedom etc etc etc
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:47 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
However it remains that she is overruling her Justice Minister. That here would be viewed except in the most extreme circumstances as undermining the Judiciary, and would draw much commentary

the justice Minister is part of the executive, not the judiciary. The executive is the cabinet and the vote in the cabinet was a tie in which case the Prime Minister / Chancellor decides because she has 2 votes. In accordance with the constitution, the Chancellor executes the Guidelines of policy.
The Justice Ninister has no ruling power over the judiciary, nor does any other cabinet Minister has.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 42):
Yes, I understand she will not make the judgement, but she has made the decision to prosecute and in the process overruled the Justice Minister.

No, the hás not made the decision to prosecute. She has left the decision to the State attorney to open a case and if he does, the judge still can dismiss without a Hearing. It would be illegal to influence the juducuary.

The state does not prosecute slander automatically, the "victim" has to request prosecution and that request can only come, in this case from Erdogan. If Erdogfan would be wise, he would not have mentioned it, like Merkel many times simply shrugged off when she was slandered in Greek or Polish media.
Erdogan should kick himself into his behind for making that Little Poem popular to a worldwide audience and himself a certified fool.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:29 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 62):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
Erdogan plays the same card Hitler, Stalin, Putin, the North Korean Kims and Mao played and play

And you see political cartoons about them all the way from their era to today. There's even people making fun of everyone else today, so Erdogan is no different. He is not divine, so he can sit down and shut up.

Erdogan couldn't care less about how the Germans see him. His target audience are the Turkish working class people, many quite traditional and religious (remember, those with ukish nationality here are allowed to vote in Turkish elections). Going all the the way makes him look like a supermacho, the Alpha Male, who is never afraid of a fight. And that he thinks that he can put Merkel, mere woman, in her place as well and punish one of the EU countries, which has been obstructing Turkey's entry into he EU for so long (he doesn't matter that there were plenty of other reasons, e.g. Turkey's human rights recod both under the Kemalists and now under the AKP and Norther Cyprus).

Heck, I even know quite educated Turks, who support him because he modernised Turkey's economy during his first erms in office and got rid of the Western oriented Kemalist corrupt cronies. This lead for a while to an economic boom, especially in the provinces, where his vote base comes from. Much of this boom came from the construction industry, with which he has close contacts (some say that he and his family are acepting bribes but this is dangerous territory to discuss in Turkey, as a few years ago he has replaced most judges, prosecutors, heads of the police and heads of the military with his own men. In Turkey, since Kemal Atatürk, the military had a special role to defend the republican values introduced by Atatürk, which they did in regular coups, but Erdogan has practically emasculated them).
By now the economy has slowed down, especially tourism due to the danger of terrorist attacks but even educated Turks see Erdogan as something like a Turkish Margaret Thatcher, who brought the country out of economic stagnation. This was Erdogan's recipe: Free market economy plus social conservatism and religiosity.
What they don't want to accept that Erdogan just changed the corrupt crowd (but again, this is dangerous to publish in Turkey journalists have gone to jail for it).

Jan
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10385
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Slandering Erdogan Now A Crime In Germany

Sun Apr 17, 2016 10:30 am

What Merkel did was right, because it is something for the legal system to decide. Do as similar "poem" about the Israeli PM poisoning wells or the Pope deciding to save from children out of Moria on Lesbos to take them home to the Vatican and ... or how about a poem of green politicians being so involved in the bringing more pleasure to the lives of refugee children...
- most of the Böhmermann supporters would demand a punishment for the author.

[Edited 2016-04-17 03:31:42]

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: vrbarreto and 14 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos