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1337Delta764
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Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:32 pm

With major losses in its commercial aviation business to Airbus as well as layoffs, I was wondering, should Boeing re-enter the mass transit business? I know that past attempts through its Boeing-Vertol business have been unsuccessful, with its only successful project being the 2400-series railcars that were used on the Chicago "L" from 1976 to 2014.

However, now that Boeing's commercial aviation business is struggling, does anyone think they should re-enter the public transit business for extra revenue and to pay off the debts of its commercial aviation business? I think a Boeing-New Flyer combination or partnership would be excellent. Coincidentally, Boeing Canada is headquartered in Winnipeg.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:51 pm

Technically commercial air travel is mass transit so they already are.
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1337Delta764
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:52 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 1):
Technically commercial air travel is mass transit so they already are.

I am specifically referring to public transit, such as bus and rail.
 
johns624
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:54 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
know that past attempts through its Boeing-Vertol business have been unsuccessful,
Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
extra revenue and to pay off the debts of its commercial aviation business

What makes you think that they would be anymore successful this go-around? They should stick with their core business, what they do best.
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:56 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 3):
What makes you think that they would be anymore successful this go-around? They should stick with their core business, what they do best.

The mass transit market is shrinking, and considering their commercial aviation business is struggling, entering the public transit market either alone or through a merger or partnership with a bus or rail manufacturer can help offset those losses.

[Edited 2016-04-15 13:56:34]
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:58 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
commercial aviation business is struggling

I'm gonna start popping my popcorn now.
When wasn't America great?


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johns624
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:20 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
The mass transit market is shrinking

Why enter a shrinking market? You'd be fighting established brands for a shrinking piece of the pie. Besides, with the much higher price of an airliner, as opposed to railcars or buses, how many more would they have to sell to offset anything?
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 9:25 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 6):
You'd be fighting established brands for a shrinking piece of the pie.

Which is why I suggested merging or partnering with an established manufacturer. A Boeing-New Flyer merger or partnership would seem like the perfect match.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:22 pm

I can only see this working for Boeing if the end result is pink and based on a gay Power Ranger or a Powerpuff Girl.   
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johns624
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:28 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
Which is why I suggested merging or partnering with an established manufacturer. A Boeing-New Flyer merger or partnership would seem like the perfect match.

How is a company with $400M of revenue going to bail out a company with $90B of revenue? New Flyer isn't a pimple on Boeing's ass.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:06 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
However, now that Boeing's commercial aviation business is struggling

Is selling 3,000 737MAX really considered "struggling"?
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:35 pm

I do agree with the notion that Boeing should attempt to open up and attempt other ventures (even on a limited basis). Boeing benefits right now from defense and commercial aviation, and going into the cybersecurity and space business. However, save for the commercial side which will pretty much always be there, the other ones are pretty volatile and dependent on government spending. NASA budget cut? Say good bye to new space contracts. Pentagon budget cut? No further jets produced. NATO allies cut defense? No new orders for military jets.

Would be ideal for Boeing to have a separate division looking into entering other markets. GE, for example, is in everything. Appliances, engines, even financials (though that division is gone). Surely, Boeing can attempt a small venture elsewhere.

Is mass transit one? I don't think so.
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Okie
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 12:36 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 11):

Would be ideal for Boeing to have a separate division looking into entering other markets. GE, for example, is in everything. Appliances, engines, even financials (though that division is gone).

GE appliances was sold off to China. The Haier group to be exact.
My take is that Haier is looking for a US brand name to market the China build appliances.

Bombardier seems to be having issues in the mass transit end of the market. I am not sure there is enough market out there for Boeing to get involved at this point in time.

Okie
 
mham001
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:15 pm

I was just reading an article yesterday about one of the Hyperloop projects looking for help from the auto industry in a Detroit visit. Boeing actually might be a good fit for that. As envisioned, it would replace many airplanes. In less than a year, there should be a working prototype.
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BestWestern
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:31 pm

How about relaunching the Boeing Jetfoil fast catamaran.

They were a disaster on the Irish Sea which is choppy, but work well on the Hong Kong Macau sea route, which must be the biggest international ferry route.

I should do a trip report someday soon.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
johns624
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 3:52 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 13):
I was just reading an article yesterday about one of the Hyperloop projects looking for help from the auto industry in a Detroit visit. Boeing actually might be a good fit for that

I thought that the topic of this thread was to make Boeing money, not lose it. I like how they say that costs will be $15 million a kilometer, "not including land purchase and building stations". So basically, it'll be several times $15 million per kilometer.
 
rutankrd
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:00 pm

Is what you are really suggesting that Boeing buy out Bombardier ?
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:02 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 16):
Is what you are really suggesting that Boeing buy out Bombardier ?

Bombardier Transportation is being spun off from the parent company, so no, that is not what I was suggesting.
 
mham001
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:05 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 15):
I thought that the topic of this thread was to make Boeing money, not lose it. I like how they say that costs will be $15 million a kilometer, "not including land purchase and building stations". So basically, it'll be several times $15 million per kilometer.

Nobody said they had to own the network, but getting those costs down would be one challenge that Boeing could possibly help with. Or such things as mass producing spherical shapes.

Much of the land doesn't need to be purchased, it sits on pillars so easements may be all that is needed. $15 million/km is also comparable to the the high speed rail being fought about now in California at $68 Billion between LA and SF. I understand there are things to work out but the concept is sound. There will soon be two prototypes up and running. I wonder if that cost is for two tubes or one. Can't build it with only one.
 
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:29 am

Quoting Okie (Reply 12):
I am not sure there is enough market out there for Boeing to get involved at this point in time.

Interesting thing is that, as an employee, I'm asked to think about the next innovation for Boeing. However, being on the defense side of things, it's harder to come up with something viable.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
bohica
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:07 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
I was wondering, should Boeing re-enter the mass transit business?

OMG Hell no! Growing up in SF, I relied on the streetcars to get me through the city. When the old PCC cars were replaced by Boeing LRV's I quickly learned that LRV stood for Lousy Running Vehicle. They were problematic from day one and were never reliable. They had propulsion problems, brake problems, electrical problems, door problems, etc. They were always breaking down.

Boston was also having problems with their Boeing LRV's as well. Many of them were cannibalized just to keep the rest of the fleet running. Boston even refused to take delivery of about 35 LRV's from Boeing. (MUNI bought them after modifications were made to MUNI standards.)

Let Boeing stick to what they do best: Making Airplanes.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 7):
A Boeing-New Flyer merger or partnership would seem like the perfect match.

Does anyone remember when Grumman bought Flxible? The result was a bus notorious for frame cracks. Transit companies and Grumman spent quite a bit of time in litigation. Grumman later sold Flxible.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:42 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 20):
Let Boeing stick to what they do best: Making Airplanes.

Agreed. I've proposed that Boeing enter related transportation or technology sectors in the past, only to realize what a bad idea that would be in reality. Boeing is already a suitably diverse corporation for its investors' risk tolerance.

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 4):
The mass transit market is shrinking, and considering their commercial aviation business is struggling, entering the public transit market either alone or through a merger or partnership with a bus or rail manufacturer can help offset those losses.

Not only is mass transit shrinking, the tech sector is actively plotting its extinction. When the self-driving car is mainstream, mass transit will be dead.
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1337Delta764
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Sun Apr 17, 2016 11:37 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 21):
Not only is mass transit shrinking, the tech sector is actively plotting its extinction. When the self-driving car is mainstream, mass transit will be dead.

Except for people who cannot afford a car.
 
Okie
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:18 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 22):
Except for people who cannot afford a car.

What does afford a car have to do with it.
We are coming to the point of autonomous vehicles.
Pick you up at point A and deliver you to point B just pull up your app, no driver involved.
No mass transit involved no waiting for the train/subway.
No shutting down at midnight or waiting for the station to open up.
Fire up your lap top on the onboard Wi-Fi and go for a ride any time day or night.

Okie
 
helhem
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:57 am

I don't know any statistics but is it really certain mass transit is shrinking. Really shrinking or it's relative share declining? I thought the low point of public transportation was in the 70s and the aftermath of that lasted several decades. In the west at least. Cities everywhere are growing. That may include many car centric suburban areas. But then the other areas are growing too. There are expansions and new openings of mass transportation systems across the globe everywhere all the time. The denser urban areas do not have huge fields of parking lots , driving is slow and difficult . I don't see how the self driving cars would change the big picture in such locations.
 
mham001
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:25 am

Quoting helhem (Reply 24):
The denser urban areas do not have huge fields of parking lots , driving is slow and difficult . I don't see how the self driving cars would change the big picture in such locations.

That could be, but imagine if 20-30 cars would begin motion the instant the light turns green. Pods of cars receiving priority with signals that know their whereabouts. Nobody going 10 under. Highway space utilized more fully with automatic spacing. There is a lot to gain with technology, it infuriates me sometimes that I live in the tech capital of the world and they are using 1970 technology to manage stop lights, for example. It may make more sense to put our money into those gains than build mass transit.
 
Ken777
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:17 pm

Boeing has good revenue (and profit) potential in services to the airline customers. An example of these services could be in integrating more information systems in the planes, as well as related products, like the flight crew iPads. I was on a BA 777 last week and talked to the Captain about the use of iPads. He loved the idea and supported the new advances in the future that would have greater integration with the plane. Boeing needs to be part of that advancement and get their revenues for their participation.
 
mandala499
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 10:57 am

I think Boeing should re-enter some other forms of transport... like a modernized version of the Boeing 929   
The other good market Boeing is at is the satellite market... Don't know how successful, but a few years ago they made an offer very difficult to refuse for my then employer...
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747400sp
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RE: Should Boeing Re-enter The Mass Transit Business?

Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:29 pm

Hello

I am open to a Boeing New Flyer merger. The Xcelsior is state of the art, but it will get old down the line, so a little help from Boeing, for it's successor, will not hurt. Also, I don't think MCI would mind getting help from Boeing, on the replacement for the J4500 and D4500, because their designs, are some what dated, compared to Van Hool and Prevost.

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