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ual777
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 1:35 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
You know, what's great about Cuba (or Russia for that matter) in comparison to the US is that the country has actually some other values than money. The United States is nothing but pseudo democracy ruled by big business that couldn't care less about welfare of ordinary people. I think the American flag should be replaced with a big blank white flag that has a dollar sign on it, because that's all your country is nowadays.

You show a total lack of understanding of what America is and what we value.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:19 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 49):
Bullshit. First, they had already been an official colony of Spain for 300 years. Second, there was no landgrab by American corporations, although there some call for it in 1901, but US labor and sugar interests were afraid and in 1902 the Land Act by the US Congress set a limit of 16 hectares of land to be sold or leased to American individuals and 1,024 hectares to American corporations.

The foreign restrictions were actually aimed at the Spanish (notice a pattern here?), who had given large sums to the Catholic Church, and still controlled by Spanish clerics after the Spanish-American war. This was a problem for the US and in 1902, passed the Organic Act (constitution) procliaming the protection of Philippine recources. In 1904, the US government bought most of the church holdings and sold it back to Filipinos.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_reform_in_the_Philippines

To imply it is a restriction by Filipinos because of US intrusion is mis-informtion. It is simply a vestige of European colonial greed.

Oh, yes?So why did you fight the KKK and other Filipino guerillas for a decade or more? US companies grabbed whole provinces for .g. Pineapple plantations. Unlike you I have been there are few times. Just go to Bukidnon, especially the company town of Manuel Fortich and have a look. Del Monte used to act as if it owned the country and the people in it. Bur after Marcos (another pro American corporation dictator) got ousted, they changed the place into something nice to show off. But it till is a company town and if you get on the wrong side of the company, you'll be moved out by their security guards. The holdngs of Del Monte etc. got grandfathered by the 1986 constitution, but no foreigner is allowed to own land or a controlling interest now.

Anyway, I'd advise you to learn a bit about Filipino history. The issue about Spanish only Catholic clergy was one reason of the Filipino rebellion against the Spaniards and also caused the founding of native churches, like the Aglipayans and the Iglesia ni Cristo.
What the Americans did was that they turned some previously already rich Filipino and Meztizo families around by giving them land confiscated from the Catholic church. These Ilustrados still control Filipino politics toda. Practically all big names in Filipino politics are connected to these big landowning families, who then supported American interests.
Read about the Filipino-American war and the Moro rebellion.
Filipino and American relations were strained, with occational guerilla warfare until 1940, when the Japanese invaded and GIs and Filipino guerilas found themselves suddenly fighting side by side. It also helped that since 1933 FDR slowly reduced the American presence in Filipino politics and effectively gave them home rule, with the aim of independence in 1943. Due to the Japanese invasion this date was postpond until 1946, but the real independence day for the Filipinos is still the day they declared independence from the Spanish.

Face it, the US has not been the liberator in many Latiin American and East Asian countries and they treated especially the Philippines like a colony, no better than the European colonialists. Just google General Ortis and his reputation in the Philippines.

[Edited 2016-04-18 01:30:09]

Addition:

Additionally the US introduced racism in the Philippines. The Spanish, while being harsh colinial masters, had no problem with mixing with the local population and mixed marriages were common (going back AFAIK to Legazpi's expedition in the 16th century, where it was recorded that one of his sailors married a local woman) . Under American rule an American, who had a relationship with a local was seen as "going native" and American children were often not allowed to mix with local ones. This only changed in the 1930s.


[Edited 2016-04-18 01:52:30]

[Edited 2016-04-18 01:53:16]
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pvjin
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:12 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
That's what I thought. What you actually mean is that the system was created for white people.

The laws were made for everybody no matter the race. Honestly, you should try traveling outside the United States for once, then you would find out that in most parts of the world people aren't so obsessed with these imaginary races that you Americans divide people of different genetics into. Even in official statistics we use language, nationality or culture to divide people into groups, rather than race.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
So you think that prejudice based on religion, language or lifestyle is somehow not as bad?

Not really. You can always learn a new language and change your lifestyle and religion if that's what it takes to succeed in life. Your skin colour on the other hand can't be changed.

Thus, religious/lifestyle (typically the same thing), or even linguistic discrimination is infinitely less bad than the actual nonsense called racism. If I went to France and refused to learn their language, insisted on wearing an ushanka with hammer and sickle on it at all times due to religious reasons, and then didn't find any meaningful employment I would have only myself to blame.

[Edited 2016-04-18 02:23:05]
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:27 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 40):
Cuba, like the Philippines had already an independence movement working towards a democracy against the Spanish colonial power back then, but he powers that were in the US back then decided that running a nation can't be trusted tobrownskinned people.

This ignores that the US actively supported Cuban independence efforts.

But only those who would subordinate Cuba's interests under American ones.

Jan
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mham001
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
Unlike you I have been there are few times.

Yea, there you go with those stereotypes. I have been to PH too many times to count, I am married to one and even own a house, but not the land. You are trying your best to to perpetuate the stereotype of the ugly American and your presentation is disingenuous, at best, and without any context of the big picture.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
They definitely did not in the Philippines and fought a long war against the insurgents, who originally fought the Spaniards and thought the US to be a liberator.

The vast majority of that fighting ended after 2-3 years. Giving control at that time would be akin to giving Syrian rebels, fighting in Syria today, full control of Syria immediately after a (theoretical) US invasion. Wouldn't be very smart, now would it, after 300 years of Spanish "ownership", to just hand a ragtag group of soldiers total control the country? Is that what you call European stewardship? Like the fine job done in Libya? Thankfully, the US government had wiser people in charge at the time.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
giving them land confiscated from the Catholic church.

LOL, they were paid $7.2 million for land that THEY stole.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
So why did you fight the KKK and other Filipino guerillas for a decade or more?


Already answered. Same war as above, that you fail to recognize that implies you really don't know the history and refuse to look at the context of 300 years of Spanish "ownership".

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
Moro rebellion

Just another offshoot/rename of the same war above. And a continuation of the same battle they've fought for 400 years.

The "rebellion" was against US attempts to integrate Muslims into Philippine society and to end their habit of slavery. You have a problem with that? Moro Muslim separatists, to this day, are still fighting Manila.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
US companies grabbed whole provinces for

Bullshit, under the Spanish, yes, but it was illegal under US law for US interests to buy large tracts of land. Since 1902. Are you denying it? Read your history, the 1902 Land Act, passed by the US Congress. Which, by the way, could be considered (and is by many Filipinos) a severe impediment to their economy by limiting foreign investment. You refuse to acknowledge that the restrictions on foreign holdings was enacted BY the US, and were meant for the protection of Philippine interests. You are the one who needs to read more history.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
they treated especially the Philippines like a colony, no better than the European colonialists.

LOL. Let's see. 300 years of European colonialism (with no end in sight) vs US-granted independence in ~40 years. You're funny.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
Filipino and American relations were strained, with occational guerilla warfare until 1940,

Guerrilla warfare by some of the same separatist groups fighting Manila today.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
It also helped that since 1933 FDR slowly reduced the American presence in Filipino politics

Your history is very selective. The US Philippine Organic Act in *1902* provided for the creation of a Philippine Assembly after certain conditions were met in 1907, such as a census, allowing the FIRST nationwide elections EVER in PH. This was replaced by the Philippine House of Representatives in 1916, also at the behest of the US Congress under the Philippine Autonomy Act. So, within 9 years, Filipinos gained official representation for the first time. What did the Europeans do again? Please, expound on the largess of European colonialism, the remnants of which are still effing up the world.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
Just google General Ortis and his reputation in the Philippines.

Right. Notice he was also relieved of his duties within 2 years, maybe less (and interestingly, replaced by General MacArthur's father).

The undeniable FACT is that after 300 years of European colonialism, the US gained control and within 40 years, granted Filipinos complete independence, after first building a democracy, giving them a government and judicial system. To this day, I can go the Philippines and be treated like a rock star by most. I have seen personally that this infuriates Europeans, to see Americans looked upon in a positive way. Your false claims reek of European envy.
 
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seb146
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:51 pm

Quoting ual777 (Reply 50):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 5):
You know, what's great about Cuba (or Russia for that matter) in comparison to the US is that the country has actually some other values than money. The United States is nothing but pseudo democracy ruled by big business that couldn't care less about welfare of ordinary people. I think the American flag should be replaced with a big blank white flag that has a dollar sign on it, because that's all your country is nowadays.

You show a total lack of understanding of what America is and what we value.

No, he pretty much nailed it. How many bankers went to jail over collapsing the financial system in 2008? How many people in Congress do what they are told after they are given large sums of money from oil, gas, pharmaceutical, auto, baking people? In the United States, we pretty much live by the Golden Rule: He who has the gold makes the rules.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:55 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
Everything has gotten better. Face it, my life, and I suspect yours as well, has much more in common with the life of Bill Gates or any other billionaire than it does with the life of an impoverished African for example. The idea that I'm supposed to be angry with 1%ers because my car is a Honda and theirs is a Bentley is ludicrous, especially when they had nothing to do with making me a 99%er.

Bullshit everything's gotten better, even in the small town I live in housing has become all but unaffordable for young people, the average house price in my town is approx 400k USD, banks won't loan without a 20% deposit. Younger people are screwed. Housing used to be affordable, now it's not unless you want to move to the middle of knowhere and there aren't any jobs there.

The average house price in Auckland hit 800k USD late last year, I doubt even you could afford that.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:24 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 56):
Bullshit everything's gotten better, even in the small town I live in housing has become all but unaffordable for young people, the average house price in my town is approx 400k USD, banks won't loan without a 20% deposit. Younger people are screwed. Housing used to be affordable, now it's not unless you want to move to the middle of knowhere and there aren't any jobs there.

It also used to be pretty standard for families to live on a single income while the mother stayed at home. I think it's pretty much impossible to do that these days for most people.

EDIT: As for Che Guevara, he was one of the most terrible human beings who ever lived. A complete Jeremy Hunt.

[Edited 2016-04-18 15:27:10]
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L0VE2FLY
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:57 pm

Debating with BMI727 is futile in my opinion. This is a guy who thinks it's totally acceptable for a country as wealthy and powerful as the United States to deny millions of its own citizens access to free/affordable healthcare, he even said it's okay to let people die simply because they can't afford to pay for health insurance. He's the Martin Shkreli of airliners.net!


Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 56):
The average house price in Auckland hit 800k USD late last year, I doubt even you could afford that.

He probably could, I don't think he's an average Joe by the way he fiercely defends the 0.1 percenters and sees nothing wrong with what they do, he's probably one of them or at least one in the making.
 
BMI727
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:56 am

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 46):
So why did they enable a dictator to come into power - and subsequently support him?

This all happened before Batista was even born.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
The laws were made for everybody no matter the race.

...but you love the welfare state, until it starts helping "those people."

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
Thus, religious/lifestyle (typically the same thing), or even linguistic discrimination is infinitely less bad than the actual nonsense called racism.

Are you really going to argue that your version of prejudice is the one that's okay?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 52):
If I went to France and refused to learn their language, insisted on wearing an ushanka with hammer and sickle on it at all times due to religious reasons, and then didn't find any meaningful employment I would have only myself to blame.

If you did that, which French citizen's rights would you be violating?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 55):
How many bankers went to jail over collapsing the financial system in 2008?

If you think they should have then you should have no problems providing names of those who should be tried, the crimes they should be convicted of, and the evidence against them. Go ahead.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 56):
Bullshit everything's gotten better, even in the small town I live in housing has become all but unaffordable for young people, the average house price in my town is approx 400k USD, banks won't loan without a 20% deposit.

In the small town where I grew up a three or four bedroom house is somewhere between $80k and $160k, with a decent yard too.

Second, we all know that nothing has ever gone wrong from people trying to make home ownership accessible to anyone.

Third, if the average price is that high then obviously quite a lot of people have done very well for themselves to drop that much on a house.

Fourth, the whole rent and real estate is too high thing is a stupid argument. It's not even an argument, it's just whining. It's nice that someone wants to live in Manhattan, but so do a lot of other people. And if the other people are willing and able to pay more for it, then they'll get the place. Manhattan doesn't need the people who can't pay the rent, or at least if it did then the economics would work itself out.

Beyond that, I've never driven through the suburb where I live, or anywhere else for that matter, and thought to myself "This neighborhood would be so much nicer with more low income housing."

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 58):
Debating with BMI727 is futile in my opinion.

For leftists it is, because they're all wrong.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 58):
This is a guy who thinks it's totally acceptable for a country as wealthy and powerful as the United States to deny millions of its own citizens access to free/affordable healthcare

The US denies citizens healthcare the way they deny me a Lamborghini. Nothing keeping me from buying one other than my own lack of funds, just like there's nothing keeping anyone from seeing a doctor except their lack of funds.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 58):
He probably could,

I actually couldn't, although the same can be said of most 25 year olds. I prefer my money in the stock market anyway, a mutual fund will never need a new dishwasher.

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 58):
I don't think he's an average Joe by the way he fiercely defends the 0.1 percenters and sees nothing wrong with what they do, he's probably one of them or at least one in the making.

I'm not an average joe, but I'm not a 0.1 percenter or even a 1 percenter either. I fail to see how anyone in either of those two groups ever violated my rights, although it is very easy to see that Sanders and Trump want to take my money and restrict my freedom. And the wealthy people I've met and dealt with have all been perfectly nice and little different than myself or any other member of the middle class. There's just no justification for the disdain towards them. They're not villains to be defeated or resources to be exploited. If anything, they're examples to be emulated.
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L-188
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:57 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
He was an evil man whose ideologies have played a major role in the economic depression on Cuba for over half of a century now.

Guevara is a villain in the same mold as Lenin and Bin Laden: an economically comfortable and relatively well educated figure who convinced that poor and uneducated that they were being abused but ultimately screwing over the people they professed to care so much about.

Bingo, I have no idea why Alaska Airlines keeps his picture up on the tails of their airplanes! 
Quoting seb146 (Reply 3):
Occupy and Sanders supporters are telling people (who are missing the point) that Reaganomics and trickle down does not work.

And they are wrong. Those people just don't want to put in the personal effort to allow that system to work.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
If America has the right to place weapons systems to Europe I don't see why the Soviet Union shouldn't have the same right to place them into Cuba.

I theory I agree with you, but you have to remember that the soviet missile presence in Cuba was to counter the US
missiles in Turkey. We now know the Soviets got what they wanted from Kennedy, withdrawal of those obsolete missiles. But that trade was kept secret for many decades. So for the soviets in the big picture it was a victory.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 11):
Social democracy is probably the best option as long as those in power think of their own people's and country's welfare first and foremost

HA! Just a social system with a Robin Hood complex. Stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Stealing is Stealing and that is all Bernie Sanders is advocating, stealing. Calling it by a different name doesn't make it anything but state sponsored stealing.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):

Having seen the video, I want to know why that plane was not shot down. It wasn't shadowing or circling the ship, that was a patently dangerous and threatening maneuver. I'd like to see an explanation for why such behavior did not draw a response in a post-USS Cole world.

As much as it would have been brilliant it would have made things much worse. Why spend the money on a missile when you know they are just trying to, pardon my language-Show who has the biggest dick. Shoot it down and you give the soviets under Putin a reason to retaliate. Why give in to the bait?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 42):
Calling anybody who disagrees you a racist isn't a good way to win an argument.

Spoken like a Obama supporter trying to defend that louse.
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WarRI1
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:36 am

The second volume of Khrushchev's memoirs (Khrushchev Remembers: The Last Testament), published posthumously in 1974, touched only briefly on the Robert Kennedy-Dobrynin meeting, but included the flat statement (on p. 512) that "President Kennedy said that in exchange for the withdrawl of our missiles, he would remove American missiles from Turkey and Italy," although he described this "pledge" as "symbolic" since the rockets "were already obsolete."

I hardly think it was a Soviet Victory. They gave up missiles 90 miles from the US and we gave up obsolete missiles ready to be replaced in Europe.
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BMI727
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 2:44 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
As much as it would have been brilliant it would have made things much worse. Why spend the money on a missile when you know they are just trying to, pardon my language-Show who has the biggest dick.

No need for a missile. Let the CIWS take care of it automatically and use a purely defensive weapon system with an objective measure of the threat.

If in fact the CIWS was activated and did not act because the plane was not considered a threat I'll stand corrected, but I doubt that was the case.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
Shoot it down and you give the soviets under Putin a reason to retaliate.

Putin is a schoolyard bully and a grade A pussy. The man has no interest in adversaries with the ability to fight back. Putin is totally fine shooting down airliners but how many more incursions did Russians make into Turkey after the Turks splashed one?
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YVRLTN
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:14 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
This all happened before Batista was even born.

Yes and no, he was born in 1901. Prior to that Cubans were fighting Spanish colonialism and the US fully got involved in Cuba in 1898 as part of their greater Spanish American wars, which were basically successful in Cuba. The Cubans wanted independence and after the failure of the rebellion led by Marti they thought that maybe the only way they could get it was for America to do the grunt work for them. Palma who took over the rebellion leadership from Marti signed the Platt Amendment in 1902 which was inaugurated into Cuban constitution, it effectively gave Cuba independence but included the whole Guantanamo deal and a lot of US involvement in their dealings. The US reduced duties in a preferential way to facilitate the importation of Cuban sugar, thus Palma sold Cuba out.

Rich American businessmen then came in to run the plantations and most of the sugar went to the US and they also imported goods from the US to sell to Cubans. There was also probably half an eye on the importation of Cubans themselves as slaves too. Naturally Cubans became pissed off with this arrangement where they effectively went from being a Spanish colony to an American one, as the Americans had so much control despite their so called independence, thus the ground became ripe for Batista.

This progressed over the next 30 years - who were all these rich Americans coming to Cuba? By the mid 1930's most of them were associated with the American Mafia, namely Luciano who had connections with none other than Al Capone. Sadly it probably had full support from the US government, who at the very least turned a blind eye. There is probably proof of this in the fact that the CIA actually collaborated with the mafia to take out Castro several times between 1960-61 using mafia assassins before the Bay of Pigs debacle. Why were the Americans so keen to get rid of Castro? The cynic in me says it was far more than he was a commie, a big money making racket the government benefited from was over in Cuba...

Anyway, who was their contact in Cuba? An up and coming general in the army named Fulgencio Batista, who powered his way through the ranks from sergeant to chief of the armed forces as early as 1933 and therefore had huge influence over Cuba politics.

He came to power as PM early as 1940, though he was not dictator until 1952. Even though the first thing he did was repeal the Platt Amendment, he was still supported by the American state right until he fled (with all his wealth) on Jan 1st 1959.

By that time most of all of those plantations, casinos, hotels, brothels and who knows what else were all mafia run right up to 1958 and their ill gotten gains were at the expense of the Cuban people. Though Palma invited in businessmen to run the plantations, 30 years later Americans were absolutely running the show at the expense of Cubans. Of course Batista and his cronies were getting their cut, but all the investment and wealth was effectively funded by organized crime. Therefore I have no sympathy for those Americans and those who supported them who lost what they had in the revolution.

To be clear, I do not support the revolution (other than it is clear the regime of Batista had to go) and the subsequent actions and policies of those who took part in it, communism or the distribution of wealth in any way. But it helps to understand the history and see where Fidel and his cronies were coming from, and why someone like Che with extreme Marxist views would feel extremely angered to see such a situation of rampant greed and corruption, and why they might not have the best opinion of American capitalism - to get back on topic.
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seb146
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:59 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
And they are wrong. Those people just don't want to put in the personal effort to allow that system to work.

We have been waiting for Reaganomics to work. We have been told that we would have vast wealth and infrastructure would be first class and schools would be low cost and everything would be paved in gold if we just give all the money to the rich and let corporations do everything.

Why, then, are there people forced to work three and four jobs just to break even? Why are there so many pot holes everywhere? Why are bridged crumbling? Why did Flint happen?

When are we going to get what we have been promised?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
the crimes they should be convicted of, and the evidence against them.

Fraud. Bundling junk mortgages in with good and selling them all as good. That is fraud. All the CEOs and boards signed off on it and they were on the verge of collapse when it came time to pay the piper. They should have failed and all of those board members should have been in the bread lines with the rest of us. Or do you not remember the summer of 2008?
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Kiwirob
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:03 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 57):
A complete Jeremy Hunt.

Not sure how you can compare Che with a British Tory MP?

Quoting L0VE2FLY (Reply 58):
He probably could, I don't think he's an average Joe by the way he fiercely defends the 0.1 percenters and sees nothing wrong with what they do, he's probably one of them or at least one in the making.

I doubt it.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
In the small town where I grew up a three or four bedroom house is somewhere between $80k and $160k, with a decent yard too.

Are there jobs in that small town? Well paying jobs?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Third, if the average price is that high then obviously quite a lot of people have done very well for themselves to drop that much on a house.

Not really, take my sister for example her home has gone from being worth 547k when she bought it about 5 years ago to just under 1 million today, if she sells and wants to step up the porperty ladder she can't, bigger homes in her area are all hitting well over 1 million, her and her husband have a combined income of approx 110k, they can't afford to move up, incomes haven't followed property prices. You only win if you cash out and move city.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Fourth, the whole rent and real estate is too high thing is a stupid argument. It's not even an argument, it's just whining.

Not it's not whining, it really is a major issue. What happens when people working in essential services like police, fire, health, education and garbage collectors can't afford to live in the areas where they work? Everyone suffers, but you don't get that because you're all about you and don't care about anyone else, just waiting utill some woman allows you to breed with her, your whole world will change and you'll wonder why you had the foolish ideals you have today.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
Stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Stealing is Stealing and that is all Bernie Sanders is advocating, stealing. Calling it by a different name doesn't make it anything but state sponsored stealing.

It's not really steeling when these people are hiding money in offshore tax havens, its more the IRS getting what they are entitled to. If the uber rich and corporations didn't evade tax we would all be much better off.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 62):
Putin is a schoolyard bully and a grade A pussy. The man has no interest in adversaries with the ability to fight back.

And you think your country is any different, you think the US public would løike seeing the coffins coming home if the US went to war with a country that could fight back, I doubt it. Even the US has ytcked tail and are leaving Afghanistan, they haven't finished what they started mainly because the US public have had enough and don't want to see anymore dead boys returning home. Ditto for Iraq.
 
aloges
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 8:39 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
Not sure how you can compare Che with a British Tory MP?

Are you familiar with rhyming slang?
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Kiwirob
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:17 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 66):
Are you familiar with rhyming slang?

Sure are you familiar with the term being cheeky?
 
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pvjin
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:23 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
...but you love the welfare state, until it starts helping "those people."

Yes, I don't believe it's Finland's responsibility to become the social office of the entire planet.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Are you really going to argue that your version of prejudice is the one that's okay?

Yes

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
If you did that, which French citizen's rights would you be violating?

None, but it would be pretty unfair for me to go to their country and live on welfare forever, that's against my morals.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
HA! Just a social system with a Robin Hood complex. Stealing from the rich to give to the poor. Stealing is Stealing and that is all Bernie Sanders is advocating, stealing. Calling it by a different name doesn't make it anything but state sponsored stealing.

Yeah, it's better that the rich keeps getting richer, poor poorer and the middle class vanishes like is happening in the US, am I right?

Your model of little to no social welfare worked well back when America was the land of opportunity, and anybody could succeed through hard work, motivation and a bit of luck. But nowadays in vast majority of cases you need higher education to get to better paying positions. If that education is only available to those with wealthy parents (apart from very few geniuses that are statistically irrelevant), then you'll eventually waste a lot of human resources when intelligent, motivated people can't succeed because they have poor parents.

So, if nothing else at least higher education should be available to all social classes through state funding.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
Spoken like a Obama supporter trying to defend that louse.

Hardly, more likely the Obama supporter would be calling a Republican / Trump supporter a racist for disagreeing with him/her.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
BMI727
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:24 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
We have been told that we would have vast wealth and infrastructure would be first class and schools would be low cost

Go to some other parts of the world and you'll see that is absolutely the case.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
we just give all the money to the rich

You keep saying this but there is no money that was given to the rich.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
Fraud. Bundling junk mortgages in with good and selling them all as good. That is fraud.

No, it's a bad investment. Like I said, names and evidence but you have neither.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
Or do you not remember the summer of 2008?

I do, but unlike you I understand what actually happened and not a few warped bullet points from Gawker.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
Are there jobs in that small town? Well paying jobs?

There are actually, although nothing like Manhattan or Silicon Valley. And not as many since the Chinese economy tanked, but remember globalization is evil.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
Not really, take my sister for example her home has gone from being worth 547k when she bought it about 5 years ago to just under 1 million today, if she sells and wants to step up the porperty ladder she can't, bigger homes in her area are all hitting well over 1 million, her and her husband have a combined income of approx 110k, they can't afford to move up, incomes haven't followed property prices. You only win if you cash out and move city.

Then they have a decision to make. Someone is buying those houses so you can't really complain about the price of it when they keep selling. At that point you're just whining that it's more than you can afford.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
What happens when people working in essential services like police, fire, health, education and garbage collectors can't afford to live in the areas where they work?

Then people working in those jobs commute. And that may require paying them more so they can either afford to live locally or make the commute worth it.

For what it's worth, many wealthy communities have very highly rated services even if the providers can't afford to live there.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
just waiting utill some woman allows you to breed with her,

In my mind the best case for marriage is the economic one. Study after study shows that married people are better off financially, although it is fair to wonder if people who are financially secure get married or if people are financially secure because they are married.

I like kids, but not more than the money and time I save by not having kids.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
And you think your country is any different, you think the US public would løike seeing the coffins coming home if the US went to war with a country that could fight back, I doubt it.

I'll be honest that American foreign policy has been pretty cowardly over the last four years or so, but Putin is all about appearances. He won't risk looking bad and will back down to save face in a hurry.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
Yes, I don't believe it's Finland's responsibility to become the social office of the entire planet.

...but you're fine with it when it's white people who look and sound like you.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
None, but it would be pretty unfair for me to go to their country and live on welfare forever, that's against my morals.

So they wouldn't be violating any of your rights but you still don't want to have to share your country with them. You're really quite the skinhead.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
So, if nothing else at least higher education should be available to all social classes through state funding.

It already is.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
GDB
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:59 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 46):
Im not sure on the timeframes, we are not talking about a long time in the grand scheme of things anyway. Nonetheless, the hypocrisy had been exposed and was a valid argument. Any way, I do not buy that every single land based nuke was removed.

It was a matter of months, back then weapon systems became obsolete quickly.
You are right, for instance 'battlefield' weapons remained but the USSR was worried about the longer range Jupiter IRBM's in Turkey for the same reasons as the US was concerned when the Soviet counterparts to these turned up on Cuba, very short times from launch to impact on targets, such as Washington, or Moscow.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
...but you're fine with it when it's white people who look and sound like you.

No, I'm not fine with white people from other countries abusing our system either. You see, I'm a patriot, not a racist. I know blacks who are both Finnish nationals and ethnic Finns, they most certainly have the same right to welfare as me.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
So they wouldn't be violating any of your rights but you still don't want to have to share your country with them. You're really quite the skinhead.

Yea yea, and every American who is against giving everyone who wants to enter the US an instant citizenship is a skinhead too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
It already is.

Hardly in your country.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:56 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
Someone is buying those houses so you can't really complain about the price of it when they keep selling.

A lot of Aucklands housingis being purchased by offshore investors, not locals, locals are being priced out. It's the same problem in the Australias main centers as well, cashed up Chinese buyers.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
Then people working in those jobs commute. And that may require paying them more so they can either afford to live locally or make the commute worth it.

They shouldn't have to, and in years past they didn't have to. Incomes haven'æt kept pace with the property market.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
In my mind the best case for marriage is the economic one. Study after study shows that married people are better off financially, although it is fair to wonder if people who are financially secure get married or if people are financially secure because they are married.

I like kids, but not more than the money and time I save by not having kids.

?????? I suspect with that attitude you're going to have to find the femal version of you, I don't know if they make those???

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
He won't risk looking bad and will back down to save face in a hurry.

He's nobodies fool like Bush was.

[Edited 2016-04-19 07:17:58]
 
mham001
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:48 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 63):
There was also probably half an eye on the importation of Cubans themselves as slaves too.

Slavery? Where did you get that? Sources please. Slavery was quite illegal at that time.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
Even the US has ytcked tail and are leaving Afghanistan, they haven't finished what they started mainly because the US public have had enough and don't want to see anymore dead boys returning home.

I think it has more to do with the realization that they do not want to help themselves.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
A lot of Aucklands housingis being purchased by offshore investors, not locals, locals are being priced out. It's the same problem in the Australias main centers as well, cashed up Chinese buyers.

Same here but history has shown us that those investors often end up buying high and getting burnt. We had the same with the Japanese in the '80's. The Chinese have recently clamped down on money leaving and the way the Chinese bond market is turning this week highlights some major, major issues coming up with their economy.
 
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seb146
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:55 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
So, if nothing else at least higher education should be available to all social classes through state funding.

It already is.

If your family already has money, yes, one can afford to go to college.

But, for those of us who have to work just to break even, we can not afford to quit even one job to change careers. If a person applies for FASFA, earns a degree, they can not get anymore funding ever. That is one reason there is so much student debt; people have to turn to banks for loans to get a different career.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 69):
it's a bad investment.

A bad investment is putting all your savings into pork bellies and then pork bellies tank. Fraud is bundling junk mortgages in with A+ mortgages and telling people that they are ALL A+ mortgages.

Imagine a Mercedes dealership. Six Mercedes have no engine or transmission. The dealer tells you every auto is perfect. You do not have time to inspect every single one because you must flip them all. And, since dealers never lie, you take him at his word.

Fraud.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:14 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 54):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 51):
Unlike you I have been there are few times.

Yea, there you go with those stereotypes. I have been to PH too many times to count, I am married to one and even own a house, but not the land. You are trying your best to to perpetuate the stereotype of the ugly American and your presentation is disingenuous, at best, and without any context of the big picture.

My first wife was Filipina and I've been with one for the last 15 years. I have visited the family many times, in provincial Mindenao, and speak some Cebuan Visayan (far from perfect, but enough to get along in every day situations). Knowing the Filipino laws I deliberately decided not to invest there (it might be different if I would be maried to my woman, but even then I would not want to be at the mercy of her and her family).

As for the ugly American, if the shoe fits... .
But I have several American friends who share my opinion. For you they must be traitors.

You are contantly trumpeting the official Version of the clear eyed American, with his right hand on his chest, saving the World. In fact your country is not different from any other powerful country in putting it's own (and primarely the interests of the rich and powerful elites) first. Your country is not different from the old European colonial powers.

The version of the Filipino history I have heard there, contradicts in many places the official version you a you are propagating.
The US made some important families change their allegations from he Filipino independence movement to the US by giving them land previously owned by the Catholic Church. This broke the independence movement and this corrupt elite is still running the place.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 54):
years.

The "rebellion" was against US attempts to integrate Muslims into Philippine society and to end their habit of slavery. You have a problem with that? Moro Muslim separatists, to this day, are still fighting Manila.

Fact is that the Spanish never truely conquered all of Mindenao, they only held some coastal towns. fact is also that some of the Muslim tribes (and they are still very tribal and clannish up to today), especially the Tausug, have a long history are warriors and pirates. Fact is also that they violently opposed all interference in their culture and region. But fact is also tht the US military of it's time use extremely violent means, today classified as war crimes, like mass hangings and destruction of villages as reprisals, to subdue them. This hasn't been forgotten there. These colonial war crimes are on the same level as the German treatment of the South west African Herero tribe in today's Namibia.

As with most colonies (even British India), first came the business people, who cheated the locals, and when the locals rebelled, these business people called on their governments to protect their investments against the upitty natives.



Quoting mham001 (Reply 54):
The undeniable FACT is that after 300 years of European colonialism, the US gained control and within 40 years, granted Filipinos complete independence, after first building a democracy, giving them a government and judicial system. To this day, I can go the Philippines and be treated like a rock star by most. I have seen personally that this infuriates Europeans, to see Americans looked upon in a positive way. Your false claims reek of European envy.

I have met many Filipinos who are less than impressed with American rule in the Philippines. As a European, with no colinial history in the Philippines, I canot complain about bad treatment. But I have to say that I usually avoid thetouristy areas and, when I'm there, I live in a purely Filipino neighbourhood, wih a lage Filipino family. I have some projects running, e.g. I pay for the schooling of a teenage girl from a squatter area.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 54):
Your history is very selective. The US Philippine Organic Act in *1902* provided for the creation of a Philippine Assembly after certain conditions were met in 1907, such as a census, allowing the FIRST nationwide elections EVER in PH. This was replaced by the Philippine House of Representatives in 1916, also at the behest of the US Congress under the Philippine Autonomy Act. So, within 9 years, Filipinos gained official representation for the first time. What did the Europeans do again? Please, expound on the largess of European colonialism, the remnants of which are still effing up the world.

As for the Philippine Organic Act, it only applied to the Christian population, Muslims and non-Christians were deliberately excluded.
And while a pro forma democatic structure was put in place (under control of the great white father), practice gave power to the landed elites..
As for American companies not being alowed to own large scales of agricultural land, how comes that Del Monte managed to aquire practically half of Bukidnon province in Mindenao for its pineaple plantations?

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
diverted
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:22 pm

Hero. Why? Because apparently Him and Fidel were so despised by the good old US of A that the Department of Defense and Joint Chiefs decided the best plan of action was to attack American citizens and blame it on Cuba.

Luckily JFK seems to have been the only one in the government with his head on straight because he put a stop to it.

Quote:
At the time of the proposal, communists led by Fidel Castro had recently taken power in Cuba. The operation proposed creating public support for a war against Cuba by blaming it for terrorist acts that would actually be perpetrated by the US Government (so called "false flag operations").[3] To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and bombings followed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government. It stated:


The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

Several other proposals were included within Operation Northwoods, including real or simulated actions against various US military and civilian targets. The operation recommended developing a "Communist Cuban terror campaign in the Miami area, in other Florida cities and even in Washington".

The plan was drafted by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, signed by Chairman Lyman Lemnitzer and sent to the Secretary of Defense. Although part of the US government's anti-communist Cuban Project, Operation Northwoods was never officially accepted; it was authorized by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, but then rejected by President John F. Kennedy. According to currently released documentation, none of the operations became active under the auspices of the Operation Northwoods proposals.

Classy. Kill your own citizens and blame another country.

Quote:
Following presentation of the Northwoods plan, Kennedy removed Lemnitzer as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, although he became Supreme Allied Commander of NATO in January 1963. American armed forces leaders began to perceive Kennedy as going soft on Cuba, and the President became increasingly unpopular with the military, a rift that came to a head during Kennedy's disagreements with the service chiefs over the Cuban Missile Crisis.

After that....

Quote:
President Ford appointed Lemnitzer to the Commission on CIA Activities within the United States (aka the Rockefeller Commission) to investigate whether the Central Intelligence Agency had committed acts that violated US laws, and allegations that E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis (of Watergate fame) were involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

So, the same man who plotted to kill US citizens, then became the head of NATO, and then led the investigation into CIA lawbreaking and the Kennedy assassination. Really raises some red flags if you ask me.

So, that's why I say Che is a hero. Because if you say he's a monster, then what term do you have for the US government at the time?
There's still enough controversy surrounding JFK's assassination, and it wouldn't surprise me at all if the government was behind it. Especially when you consider the timeline of events. IE, Johnson immediately reversing JFK's decision to withdraw troops from Vietnam, or Oswald being shot before he could face trial.
 
mham001
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:23 pm

I just told my wife what you are claiming and she just shook her head, muttering about slavery and the atrocities of the Spanish priests (she is deeply Catholic). Then walked away using a word I wish I could spell, deang ee, or something. Translates best to 'stupid'.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
But I have several American friends who share my opinion. For you they must be traitors.

No, they are just as ignorant as you of the history, apparently believing Philippine history began when the US arrived. Not unlike the ME today, where many would like to completely ignore the role of Euro colonialism. Cuba too. e.g, Who brought slaves to Cuba???

Who enslaved and deported Filipinos to penal colonies after insurrections and the battles with the Dutch? As opposed to the US, who granted amnesty to all after the PH-Am War.

Your claim that the US granting of full independence after 46 years of administration, was somehow worse than the pillaging of 370 years of Spanish rule is nothing but history revision.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
You are contantly trumpeting the official Version of the clear eyed American, with his right hand on his chest, saving the World. In fact your country is not different from any other powerful country in putting it's own (and primarely the interests of the rich and powerful elites) first. Your country is not different from the old European colonial powers.

Haha, actually, much of the history I am reading is of Spanish and Dutch origin. And besides your Del Monte accusations, what other US "wealthy and elite" benefited in any degree? As opposed to the Spanish elites and Church?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
The version of the Filipino history I have heard there, contradicts in many places the official version you a you are propagating.

The version making many of the claims you are making is garbage when it excluded major pieces of legislation that governed the islands. Legislation you had apparently never heard of. Your version also completely ignores the atrocities of the Spanish, as if PH history began when the US arrived.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
The US made some important families change their allegations from he Filipino independence movement to the US by giving them land previously owned by the Catholic Church. This broke the independence movement and this corrupt elite is still running the place.

The US, with Aquannaldo in custody, made peace, rather than killing them and then gave everybody amnesty. Nobody was "given" land, it was sold at its value, yes, most to wealthy people. However, the "elite" did not become wealthy under US rule, that was a remnant of Spanish rule. How do you blame the US for the "elite" when the US had only been there 3 years of war? Those people were "important" and wealthy long before the US arrived AND they all happened to carry Spanish surnames.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine_Revolution

Prior to that, there was the Revolt of Nogales and the Cavite Mutiny, indicating plenty were not happy that the Spanish heavily favored their own over the natives.

If you want a fine example of iron-fist rule, check out Rafael Izquierdo y Gutiérrez. It is little wonder the Philippine revolution was fighting Spanish Rule.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
As with most colonies (even British India), first came the business people, who cheated the locals, and when the locals rebelled, these business people called on their governments to protect their investments against the upitty natives.

How could all that have happened when the US had been there but 3 years (of war)?

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
As for the Philippine Organic Act, it only applied to the Christian population, Muslims and non-Christians were deliberately excluded.

The problem in the Muslim areas was that they were in a state of war. The whole Act was predicated on completion of a census, probably impossible in Mindanao at that point as well as the mountains of Luzon, which had never been controlled by the Spanish and so, were never forced to convert to Catholicism.. Maybe (I don't know) they did not want to hold up the entire process while Mindanao was worked out.

Have you read the Organic Act? It states quite clearly;

Section 5. That no law shall be enacted in saidIslands which shall deprive any person of life, liberty, or property without due process of law, or deny to any person therein the equal protection of the laws.

That in all criminal prosecutions the accused shall enjoy the right to be heard by himself and counsel, to demand the nature and cause of the accusation against him, to have a speedy and public trial, to meet the witnesses face to face, and to have compulsory process to compel the attendance of witnesses in his behalf.

That no person shall be held to answer for a criminal offence without due process of law; and no person for the same offence shall be twice put in jeopardy of punishment, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself.

That all persons shall before conviction be bailable by sufficient sureties, except for capital offences.

That no law impairing the obligation of contracts shall be enacted.

That no person shall be imprisoned for debt.

That the privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion, insurrection, or invasion the public safety may require it, in either of which events the same may be suspended by the President, or by the Governor, with the approval of the Philippine Commission, wherever during such period the necessity for such suspension shall exist.

That no ex post facto law or bill of attainder shall be enacted.

That no law granting a title of nobility shall be enacted, and no person holding any office of profit or trust in said Islands, shall without the consent of the Congress of the United States, accept any present, emolument, office, or title of any kind whatever from any king, queen, prince, or foreign State.

That excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted.

That the right to be secure against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated.

That neither slavery, nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist in saidIslands.

That no law shall be passed abridging the freedom of speech or of the press, or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and petition the Government for redress of grievances.

That no law shall be made respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, and that the free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed.


Notice also, right there in the title that this is a "temporary" act. Which led to the Jones Act in 1916, promising the road to independence.

How did that jibe with Spanish Rule? Which included forced labor of every male Filipino for 15-40 days a year - unless they had a bribe.

It instantly changed the status of Filipinos from "Spanish subjects" to "citizens of the Philippine Islands".

Section 4. That all inhabitants of the Philippine Islands continuing to reside therein who were Spanish subjects on the eleventh day of April, eighteen hundred and ninety-nine, and then resided in the Philippine Islands, and their children born subsequent thereto, shall be deemed and held to be citizens of the Philippine Islands and as such entitled to the protection of the United States,

Yet the Us is the bad guy. Typical Euro history revisionism.

After 3 tumultuous years, the US also granted this:

Section 7. That two years after the completion and publication of the census, in case such condition of general and complete peace with recognition of the authority of the United States shall have continued in the territory of said Islands not inhabited by Moros or other non-Christian tribes and such facts shall have been certified to the President by the Philippine Commission, the President upon being satisfied thereof shall direct Commission to call, and the Commission shall call, a general election for the choice of delegates to a popular assembly of the people of said territory in the Philippine Islands, which shall be known as the Philippine Assembly. After said Assembly shall have convened and organised, all the legislative power heretofore conferred on the Philippine Commission in all that part of said Islands not inhabited by Moros or other non-Christian tribes shall be vested in a Legislature consisting of two Houses – the Philippine Commission and the Philippine Assembly.

http://www.gov.ph/constitutions/the-philippine-organic-act-of-1902/

A Philippine Assembly - Direct national representation. What did the Spanish do again - after 370 years??

If you want to continue this mass misinformation campaign, I can go on the to the Jones Act of 1916, which formally promised independence.....

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
As for American companies not being alowed to own large scales of agricultural land, how comes that Del Monte managed to aquire practically half of Bukidnon province in Mindenao for its pineaple plantations?

I don't know, but they have been gone for 20 years. Have you tried to find out?

But as an aside, it is not unreasonable that US administration would favor US companies, the spoils of war. Why not, when Belgian, Dutch and others are known to have had the same interests? So what?
 
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zckls04
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:26 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 65):
Not sure how you can compare Che with a British Tory MP?

Because they're both total Jeremy Hunts.

Quoting diverted (Reply 76):
Hero. Why? Because apparently Him and Fidel were so despised by the good old US of A that the Department of Defense and Joint Chiefs decided the best plan of action was to attack American citizens and blame it on Cuba.

That's the "an enemy of my enemy is a friend of mine" argument. It doesn't hold much water when using it to justify the actions of a psychotic mass murderer.
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Maverick623
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:56 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 14):
I'd suggest that people who never experienced living in a dictatorship should never start topics like this.

When a naturally occurring plant growing on your property makes your government send in agents with guns to take it (and you) away;

When you can have all your money permanently taken from you without so much as probable cause (or even a conviction);

When government agents routinely stop, detain, and search people for no reason other than they are "legally" allowed;

When your government has officially sanctioned the use of secret courts, warrantless searches, and holding people without trial or without a conviction indefinitely while denying them access to legal counsel;

When your government arrests you and subjects you to the above for peacefully demonstrating against these abuses;

Well, you don't have to call it a dictatorship, but you sure as hell can't call it a free society.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
diverted
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:58 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 79):
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 14):I'd suggest that people who never experienced living in a dictatorship should never start topics like this.
When a naturally occurring plant growing on your property makes your government send in agents with guns to take it (and you) away;

When you can have all your money permanently taken from you without so much as probable cause (or even a conviction);

When government agents routinely stop, detain, and search people for no reason other than they are "legally" allowed;

When your government has officially sanctioned the use of secret courts, warrantless searches, and holding people without trial or without a conviction indefinitely while denying them access to legal counsel;

When your government arrests you and subjects you to the above for peacefully demonstrating against these abuses;

Well, you don't have to call it a dictatorship, but you sure as hell can't call it a free society.

I'll add...

When your government can authorize drone strikes on its own citizens....
 
BMI727
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:32 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 71):
No, I'm not fine with white people from other countries abusing our system either.

You said above that they'd just get what the system says they should get. It's only "abusing the system" when it's people who are not up to your purity standards.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 71):
You see, I'm a patriot, not a racist.

First, that's exactly what most klansmen would say.

Second, you've already stated your intent to become a collaborator when your neo-Communist Russian overlords come rolling in, so you are certainly not a patriot. You're someone actual patriots would line up against a wall and shoot.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 71):
Yea yea, and every American who is against giving everyone who wants to enter the US an instant citizenship is a skinhead too.

The only people who get instant citizenship are born that way. Nobody arriving from Cuba, Mexico or anywhere else gets instant citizenship.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 71):
Hardly in your country.

Check your facts.

Bernie Sanders is running on a promise to make public college tuition free. You may have also heard of the GI Bill, which provides educational and other benefits to veterans of the armed forces. One of the provisions of the GI Bill is funding to attend public universities. In other words, people can already get what Bernie wants to give them. Bernie is just trying to make sure they don't have to work for it. Not exactly the American Dream.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
A lot of Aucklands housingis being purchased by offshore investors, not locals, locals are being priced out.

Who cares? Money is money.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
It's the same problem in the Australias main centers as well, cashed up Chinese buyers.

People showing up with money to spend is a "problem"? Not to mention that significant numbers of wealthy Chinese is just proof of the power of trickle down economics.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
They shouldn't have to, and in years past they didn't have to.

So I don't have the right to keep my banking to myself, but I do have the right to not have a commute?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 74):
If your family already has money, yes, one can afford to go to college.

My family didn't have money and yet here I am.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 74):
If a person applies for FASFA, earns a degree, they can not get anymore funding ever.

Bullshit. I did a FAFSA all four years and I could apply for another degree tomorrow without having to write a tuition check.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 74):
A bad investment is putting all your savings into pork bellies and then pork bellies tank.

Or putting all of your money into mortgages and then mortgages tank.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 74):
Imagine a Mercedes dealership. Six Mercedes have no engine or transmission. The dealer tells you every auto is perfect. You do not have time to inspect every single one because you must flip them all. And, since dealers never lie, you take him at his word.

Or you could turn around and leave if you're uncomfortable.

But to keep with your odd analogy, the only reason those cars were built with no powertrain was because the government carried on and on about how everyone should be able to own a Mercedes.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:02 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
As for American companies not being alowed to own large scales of agricultural land, how comes that Del Monte managed to aquire practically half of Bukidnon province in Mindenao for its pineaple plantations?

Well, it didn't take long, looks like they started out with 1,000 hectacres in 1926, within the limits set at that time by the 1902 Organic Act. Then they shut down operations in the '30's for the US depression, only restarting operations in '46. Most likely, their expansion occurred with Philippine government approval.

http://www.delmontepacific.com/Website/Content.aspx?i=12

Section 75. That no corporation shall be authorised to conduct the business of buying and selling real estate or be permitted to hold or own real estate except such as may be reasonably necessary to enable it to carry out the purposes for which it is created, and every corporation authorised to engage in agriculture shall by its charter be restricted to the ownership and control of not to exceed one thousand and twenty-four hectares of land; and it shall be unlawful for any member of a corporation engaged in agriculture or mining and for any corporation organised for any purpose except irrigation to be in any wise interested in any other corporation engaged in agriculture or in mining.

http://www.gov.ph/constitutions/the-philippine-organic-act-of-1902/

But you go ahead and spread your gossip and hate...you look like a fool.

BTW, I ran across this looking for the pinapple company. You should probably go tell the Filipinos they have their history all wrong and are part of a huge conspiracy to cover up the gross misdeeds of the Americans. They need your education....

During the revolt against Spain, the town became a battleground between the Katipuneros and the Spain forces. The revolutionists lost and the vengeful Spanish soldiers burned down the settlement. The town people fled for their lives to nearby towns.

At the advent of the American rule, it was made a part of Sta. Maria until 1918 when the town was created and Ciriaco Gallardo was appointed the first municipal president. Public schools where opened at the start of the American regime but due to the scarcity of the population, the highest grade organized was the fourth grade.


http://www.bulacan.gov.ph/sjdm/history.php



[Edited 2016-04-19 19:13:39]
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13491
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:19 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
first came the business people, who cheated the locals, and when the locals rebelled, these business people called on their governments to protect their investments against the upitty natives.

Sound like what happened in Hawaii

Quoting mham001 (Reply 54):
The undeniable FACT is that after 300 years of European colonialism, the US gained control and within 40 years, granted Filipinos complete independence, after first building a democracy, giving them a government and judicial system. To this day, I can go the Philippines and be treated like a rock star by most.

Must be about time to grant Hawians there independance.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
Who cares? Money is money.

Aucklanders care a great deal, it's a crisis, and clearly you know nothing about Chinese property investing.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
People showing up with money to spend is a "problem"? Not to mention that significant numbers of wealthy Chinese is just proof of the power of trickle down economics.

It sure is a problem when Chinese property investors buy property for prices which the local population can't match, then to top it all off the Chinese person doesn't live in it, they don't rent it, they wait a few months then on sell to another Chinese property investor for a fat profit. This does not benefit the NZ economy at all, foreign owners barely spend a cent in NZ and just cart thr profits offshore.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
So I don't have the right to keep my banking to myself, but I do have the right to not have a commute?

And this is relevant how? Where you live and where you work are important to most people, and who goes into a bank these days, its all done on line and only an idiot carries cash.
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:32 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
You said above that they'd just get what the system says they should get. It's only "abusing the system" when it's people who are not up to your purity standards.

My basic logic is that when a Finn is living on welfare for extended periods of time for no valid reason, in all likelihood at least his/her parents or grandparents have done something for this country, which makes it less bad than somebody who isn't a native Finn living on welfare for extended periods of time for no valid reason.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
Second, you've already stated your intent to become a collaborator when your neo-Communist Russian overlords come rolling in, so you are certainly not a patriot. You're someone actual patriots would line up against a wall and shoot.

Being an autonomous part of Russia would still leave Finland more free than it is now under the EU.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
You may have also heard of the GI Bill, which provides educational and other benefits to veterans of the armed forces.

Those benefits should be available to everybody, not just to those who have fought for the interests of American economic elite.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:11 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 83):
This does not benefit the NZ economy at all, foreign owners barely spend a cent in NZ and just cart thr profits offshore.

is there no comminity tax on houses, water, sewer, mandatory waste removal etc, plus a second etc home tax?
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13491
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:20 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 85):
is there no comminity tax on houses, water, sewer, mandatory waste removal etc, plus a second etc home tax?

There is no property tax in NZ, there are local rates taxes which cover rubbish collection and council services, but if you not living in it you can cut of the water and power, then all the country gets from the foreign owner is council rates which is piss all. And no taxes on secondary homes either.
 
tu204
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:47 am

Not claiming to be an expert on this persona, but from what I have read he seems to be a man that was always looking for a fight. Revolution and that's about it. What do do after? Organize a revolution somewhere else?

I do have respect Fidel Castro though.

Quoting GDB (Reply 25):
He had ordered dismantled well before the crisis, since their role had been taken over by the first Polaris subs now on station, so JFK was surprised and angered when the USSR brought the Turkish bases up in the talks.

You are all forgetting that part of the deal of the USSR removing missiles from Cuba was the United States guaranteeing that they would not force a leadership change in Cuba. Whatever that is worth...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):

Quoting tu204 (Reply 26):
Realize that would have severe consequences for any US military hardware that gets anywhere near Russia?

I doubt it.

Well looks like those in command don't doubt it. Which is exactly why they took no action other than to protest it to the Russian Embassy.  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
That said, there should be liberalization but there should also be a small (small enough to not cause goods to become uncompetitive) tariff placed on Cuban goods and services as restitution for American assets stolen during the revolution. Once Cuba makes restitution the tariff should be removed.

Now if I were Cuban, I would suggest that you ask for this restitution from Batista and company that fled Cuba with their loot.
They robbed Cuba and fled to the United States, Cuba in your opinion robbed United States citizens. Hmmm...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 81):
You said above that they'd just get what the system says they should get. It's only "abusing the system" when it's people who are not up to your purity standards.

Not speaking for him, but what I think he means is that he doesn't see a reason why he, a Finish citizen who works and pays taxes and who's parents probably did the same should pay for someone who wasn't born, hasn't lived and hasn't worked a day in his life in Finland should be given his tax Euros.

For example I was sick of this same thing when I was in Canada and it was part of the reason I voted with my feet and left.

Can't speak for our Finnish buddy, but for me it had nothing to do with racism. I just didn't appreciate people coming as "refugees" and jumping on the welfare system immediately, getting some pretty nice benefits compared to Canadians and immigrants while not providing absolutely anything to society. And it doesn't matter if they were white, brown, yellow or purple as far as I cared. But in the late 2000's it just went PC crazy just like in Western Europe.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:49 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 86):
And no taxes on secondary homes either.

I am not an advocate for Taxation, but the communities have built the infrastructure and there must be some return. Taxation for secondary homes are quite popular in Resort towns and can be voted by the city assembly.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Redd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
He genuinely wanted a nuclear holocaust.

No he didn't. He genuinely wanted the United States to stop installing dictators that murdered people by the thousands to quash dissent so that American Corporations could continue sucking dry Latin America's resources all the while keeping the populace poor and powerless and very injured if they dared speak out.

By far, the biggest contributor to Latin American misery has been American Policy.

So is Che a hero? F*ck yeah. You forget that the Castro regime, Che included, didn't want to have anything to do with the U.S.S.R at first tried to create relations with the USA. But the USA refused to create relations that were not favorable for their companies.

Seriously, America has ZERO moral high ground to criticize a man like Che. I'm sure you've heard of certain American companies monopolizing water in certain Latin American countries and creating policy that prohibits citizens from even collecting rain water because they could not afford water out of the tap.
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:03 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 89):

Well summarized. The US government practically drove Castro to the USSR, he was given no other option, apart from allowing the US to continue exploiting Cuba as a de facto American colony, which he obviously wouldn't allow.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 3:49 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 89):
By far, the biggest contributor to Latin American misery has been American Policy.

Really. That is quite debatable.

After catching the German misrepresenting Philippine history, I took a look at Cuba's. Turns out, they suffered (at least) as much as the Filipinos under Spanish rule. That is of course, if you dare to admit there was a history before 1955, or so.

The Spanish began to create permanent settlements on the island of Hispaniola, east of Cuba, soon after Columbus' arrival in the Caribbean, but the coast of Cuba was not fully mapped until 1509, when Sebastián de Ocampo completed this task. In 1511, Diego Velázquez de Cuéllar set out from Hispaniola to form the first Spanish settlement in Cuba, with orders from Spain to conquer the island. The settlement was at Baracoa, but the new settlers were to be greeted with stiff resistance from the local Taíno population. The Taínos were initially organized by cacique (chieftain) Hatuey, who had himself relocated from Hispaniola to escape the brutalities of Spanish rule on that island. After a prolonged guerrilla campaign, Hatuey and successive chieftains were captured and burnt alive, and within three years the Spanish had gained control of the island. In 1514, a settlement was founded in what was to become Havana.
 
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Kiwirob
Posts: 13491
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:33 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 91):
Turns out, they suffered (at least) as much as the Filipinos under Spanish rule.

And so have native Hawaiians under US rule.
 
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zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 86):
There is no property tax in NZ, there are local rates taxes which cover rubbish collection and council services, but if you not living in it you can cut of the water and power, then all the country gets from the foreign owner is council rates which is piss all.

The tax rates would be paid anyway though presumably, assuming the property wasn't vacant.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 92):
And so have native Hawaiians under US rule.

And yet I'm not accosted by twelve year old prostitutes if I go out at night in Oahu, unlike in Cuba. Perspective is important here.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:13 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 92):
And so have native Hawaiians under US rule.

Quite a lot less so than the natives of New Zealand.

But, this is about Cuba...

Clergyman Bartolomé de las Casas observed a number of massacres initiated by the invaders as the Spanish swept over the island, notably the massacre near Camagüey of the inhabitants of Caonao. According to his account, some three thousand villagers had traveled to Manzanillo to greet the Spanish with loaves, fishes and other foodstuffs, and were "without provocation, butchered".[20] The surviving indigenous groups fled to the mountains or the small surrounding islands before being captured and forced into reservations. One such reservation was Guanabacoa, which is today a suburb of Havana

In 1513, Ferdinand II of Aragon issued a decree establishing the encomienda land settlement system that was to be incorporated throughout the Spanish Americas. Velázquez, who had become Governor of Cuba relocating from Baracoa to Santiago de Cuba, was given the task of apportioning both the land and the indigenous peoples to groups throughout the new colony. The scheme was not a success, however, as the natives either succumbed to diseases brought from Spain such as measles and smallpox, or simply refused to work, preferring to slip away into the mountains.[16] Desperate for labor to toil the new agricultural settlements, the Conquistadors sought slaves from surrounding islands and the continental mainland. However, these new arrivals followed the indigenous peoples by also dispersing into the wilderness or dying of disease.[16]
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:01 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 93):
And yet I'm not accosted by twelve year old prostitutes if I go out at night in Oahu, unlike in Cuba. Perspective is important here.

As far as I know Hawaii hasn't been subjected to decades long embargo. That kind of stuff tends to have a negative effect on ordinary people's lives.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
sccutler
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:13 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 56):
Bullshit everything's gotten better, even in the small town I live in housing has become all but unaffordable for young people, the average house price in my town is approx 400k USD, banks won't loan without a 20% deposit. Younger people are screwed. Housing used to be affordable, now it's not unless you want to move to the middle of knowhere and there aren't any jobs there.

The average house price in Auckland hit 800k USD late last year, I doubt even you could afford that.

Congratulations on being part of the Chinese Bubble Hedge program.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
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zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:57 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 95):
As far as I know Hawaii hasn't been subjected to decades long embargo. That kind of stuff tends to have a negative effect on ordinary people's lives.

Leaving a mere 195 countries to trade with. I agree the embargo is completely stupid, but Cuba's economic problems are a result of it failing to liberalize its dysfunctional centrally planned economy, not a result of the embargo.
Four Granavox Turbines!
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:50 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 89):
I'm sure you've heard of certain American companies monopolizing water in certain Latin American countries and creating policy that prohibits citizens from even collecting rain water because they could not afford water out of the tap.

Man, I have to say, the way some of you guys can dish out the crap, you could win awards in Texas....

An influx of private, for-profit corporations into the region over the last decade has exacerbated the problems of scarcity, urbanization, pollution and inequitable access. Private water companies, determined to take advantage of Latin America's water crisis, are operating or planning to operate in most countries of the region, including Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Honduras, Mexico, Nicaragua, Panama, Peru and Uruguay.

Most of these companies are local subsidiaries of the three largest multinational water service companies - Suez and Vivendi of France, and RWE-Thames Water of Germany (the "Big-3"). A decade ago, the Big-3 serviced only 51 million people in just 12 countries. Together, the three now deliver water and wastewater services to almost 300 million customers in over 130 countries. Suez and Vivendi control over 70% of the existing water service market worldwide. Their revenues have kept pace with their growth. Vivendi, for example, earned over $12 billion in 2002 compared with just $5 billion a decade ago. All three are ranked among the wealthiest 100 corporations in the world with combined annual revenues in 2002 of almost $160 billion and an annual growth rate of 10%, outpacing many of the national economies in which they operate.7


https://www.globalpolicy.org/social-and-economic-policy/global-public-goods-1-101/46052-the-struggle-for-latin-americas-water.html
 
Redd
Posts: 1359
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:19 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 98):
an, I have to say, the way some of you guys can dish out the crap, you could win awards in Texas....

I challenge you to prove one word of mine incorrect.

Maybe Texas can award me a vegan steak and a 4 cyl Mustang.

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