YVRLTN
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Sun May 08, 2016 9:40 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 149):
However, the point of this thread is that Cuba has big problems, blamed on America.

Yet again. that was not said, here is post 142 again for you.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 142):
To be very clear, the conversation went that way looking at how the revolution came to be, but really it is one part of a three part problem, and an historical one which contributed to the state of things which led to a dictator then the revolution. The other two parts are Spanish colonialism and the current socialist regime including too close ties with the USSR.

Of course in 2016 only one of those three factors are still in place and there is absolutely no question that the current regime is the prime cause of the current state of the Cuban economy, that is totally indisputable. In the 80's things were not too bad and there were huge Soviet funded infrastructure projects, but the collapse of the USSR hit Cuba very very hard and ended it all, they were forced back to subsistence farming to survive and the whole thing was brought to its knees, which forced some reform and opening up of relations with other non communist countries such as Brazil and Korea, and now they are somewhat back on their feet again.

The other two factors however have played their part historically and left their marks.

American policy with a view to incorporating Cuba against their wishes, rampant American mafia funded capitalism (the proceeds of which largely did not remain in Cuba - which was what the revolution was against as much as anything), support of a dictator, CIA incompetence even corruption, right through to modern history of maintaining sanctions and lumping Cuba in with Iraq and Afghanistan have very much played a part in where Cuba are at. But it is not the number one primary cause for Cuban misery in 2016 (if they are miserable).

I truly believe at the time the Cuban people were quite happy to try a socialist government, such views were quite popular and had a lot of backing going back 30 years. Today, sure some are leaving, but many seem quite content, after all the healthcare and education is very good and free and you are guaranteed a job and support and the essentials of life for your family should you want it - just that those are not very good...
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JJJ
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon May 09, 2016 7:41 am

Quoting pu (Reply 149):
The Cuban people are not alone in their docility.

So whatever happened to this?

Quoting pu (Reply 127):
why don't you factor the subservient, docile and un-self-empowered mindset present in all of Spain's former colonies.... WHY DON'T YOU FACTOR IN CUBAN/LATIN AMERICAN CULTURE

If everyone has it, then it's not really a defining trait innit?

And then again: Spanish colonial authorities basically invented the modern concentration camps to deal with the Cuban people.
 
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pu
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed May 11, 2016 7:41 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 151):
So whatever happened to this?

Not understanding your question.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 151):

If everyone has it, then it's not really a defining trait innit?

Pu did not mean to say it was a defining trait of the Cuban people, merely a trait of the Cuban people. They share a docile approach and follow the next strongman in charge, they follow the next person who kills or gets rid of the last guy in charge. Just like the rest of Latin America....and much of the world.

The European/N American democracies function a bit differently. People have no automatic inclination to follow and obey whoever is in charge. It's all cultural, and culture explains Cuba's history.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 151):
And then again: Spanish colonial authorities basically invented the modern concentration camps to deal with the Cuban people.

Fine.

I agree very much that Spanish influence is a (perhaps THE) main explanation for Cuba's history.
....let me repeat: there is nothing magic in the waters around America that suddenly make it the richest, most powerful place on earth, its culture makes Ameica what it is just as Cuban culture makes Cuba what Cuba is.

It's definitely true that bad things can happen to us that are out of our control. Both on a personal and national level. But after some time, everyone has the ability to choose to change or simply accept what has happened. The Cubans choose to accept what has happened.




Pu.
 
aloges
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed May 11, 2016 8:17 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 105):
Didn't you hear? Revolutions only happen when it is the left doing them - when it is the opposition they are just reactionaries. Someone is due for a refresher course in Doublespeak.

Easy there, Salazar. Some of the most venerated revolutionaries in history defined the term "doublespeak".
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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Asturias
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed May 11, 2016 8:17 pm

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 33):
What if it was YOUR property being stolen? Would you just say "wrong time, too bad, too sad" and that's it. My grandparents experienced this firsthand when the communists came to power through coup in 1948. Farm their ancestors built for generations stolen through one signature and turn into collective farm only to be returned as a ruin 40 years later. They were lucky they did not end up in prison like many others.

Americans stole Cuba from Spain, false flag operation and the works. While I have no sympathies for commies, my heart doesn't bleed for thieves who had their loot stolen.
Tonight we fly
 
sccutler
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed May 11, 2016 8:41 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 68):
But nowadays in vast majority of cases you need higher education to get to better paying positions.
Quoting pvjin (Reply 148):
Why should the current regime be stopped? Thanks to it Cubans have enjoyed better quality of education and healthcare than people in neighbouring countries do.

I have generally believed this to be true, but in in-depth conversations with a number of Cuban people, I am not sure this sentiment carries that universally.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 148):
I think people in western world highly overestimate the importance of things like democracy and freedom of speech.

And I think there are a lot of people in places with totalitarian rule who are thankful that they can suppress whatever semblance of democratic rule and freedom of expression they can, in order to protect their power and privilege.

You have a compelling point, though - how many (in any society) have "hearts yearning to be free," vs. simply wanting to live a reasonably comfortable life?

Lots of highly-educated, free-to-speak, financially-successful people here who are miserable 24/7.
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JJJ
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed May 11, 2016 10:08 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 152):
Not understanding your question.

Basically asking you to please stop moving the goalposts. You said this.

Quoting pu (Reply 127):
When assigning blame for Cuba's misery, why don't you factor in the subservient, docile and un-self-empowered mindset present in all of Spain's former colonies,

And a few posts later you agreed that that subservient, docile yadda yadda was also part of, to name two of your own examples, France and Sweden.

Cuba is a mess because it's been the playground of corrupt and inept colonial governments followed by corrupt and inept local elites (who for the most part were the old colonial elite just changing sides) then by another quasi-colonial regime and finally by a bunch of commies.

Please tell me how did the folks at Jamaica, Belize or Guyana do with their very English flavour of colonialism. Jamaica is worse in just about every measurable quality of life standard than Cuba (other than personal freedoms), Belize is better than Guatemala but worse than Mexico and Guyana trails everyone in South America.
 
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pu
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Thu May 12, 2016 4:11 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 156):
Basically asking you to please stop moving the goalposts. You said this...And a few posts later you agreed that that subservient, docile yadda yadda was also part of, to name two of your own examples, France and Sweden.

Ok, I see the confusion in my own words. Apologies. I'll clarify.

1. It's a matter of degree. Cubans are docile. Americans, French, English, less so. Docility may be a natural human trait and learning to overcome it and take responsibility for oneself is a cultural accomplishment.

2. Most of us are very docile when a gun is pointed to our head. Even then, however, a few of us will give up our lives for something better. When Hitler shows up at your door, many Europeans became very docile. Although a noticeable minority, the English and the Poles DID NOT give in to Hitler.

3. Castro is no Hitler. That's my point. Anyone, a total stranger, could show up on the Cuba scene, kill Castros and announce they are now in charge, and the Cubans would accept it. Same for much of Latin America. However, in other cultures, only someone with the danger and ferocity of Hitler could take over, while in still other cultures, England and America for instance, it is impossible for anyone to take over without a very democratic agreement of the people.

Some cultures are willing to fight and die for what they believe is right. Others choose to accept whatever is handed to them, but there are degrees of being docile, its not all black and white.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 156):
Cuba is a mess because it's been the playground of corrupt and inept colonial governments

No.

The local people are always the deciding factor, not the colonial governments.

Hong Kong, Singapore and the USA are all former colonies of the same colonial master that ruled Belize and half of Africa. Hong Kong, Singapore and the USA succeed because of who they are culturally; Belize and Africa and India owe their success or failure not to colonialism, but to themselves.

Quoting JJJ (Reply 156):
Please tell me how did the folks at Jamaica, Belize or Guyana do with their very English flavour of colonialism.


Under both colonial influence or left entirely on their own, they would still be in the same state they are today or worse because of their people. Several former English colonies are the most spectacularly powerful and wealthy places in the world - Canada, the US, Australia, NZ, etc. Anywhere there is Spanish or African influence overriding English influence, there is poverty and authoritarian governments.

Culture matters. Some cultures are better than others. Put the Americans in charge of Cuba and it would be as wealthy and comfortable as Florida. Leave the Cubans to themselves and they will forever be poor and emigrating to America.






Pu.
 
JJJ
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Thu May 12, 2016 8:56 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 157):
Belize and Africa and India owe their success or failure not to colonialism, but to themselves.

So it's all culture, except when it isn't. Nice way to put a theory.

Success cases like the US are the exception. English colonialism has given the world Zimbabwe, Pakistan and the US (to name three very different outcomes). Each have their own explanations.

Colonialism by and large has been a huge failure, almost everywhere, no matter who the masters were.
 
dc863
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon May 23, 2016 11:03 am

Che was a thug period end of story. He got what he deserved.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon May 23, 2016 11:31 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 158):
Colonialism by and large has been a huge failure, almost everywhere, no matter who the masters were.

Ask an Indian. I spent a lot of time in India. Very much like Americans, there was a long-standing anger against England for specific abuses during India's status as a colony, and they are glad to be independent. But every (educated) Indian will freely admit that the British left behind government and social infrastructure without which India could not have run itself today as well as it has. Phrases like "We are glad to be independent, but are grateful to the British for what they left us", is quite common.

The British generally left behind a pretty well-functioning state behind wherever they colonized. The French and Belgians, not so good.
Democrats haven't been this angry since we took away their slaves.
 
JJJ
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon May 23, 2016 3:03 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 160):
Ask an Indian. I spent a lot of time in India. Very much like Americans, there was a long-standing anger against England for specific abuses during India's status as a colony, and they are glad to be independent. But every (educated) Indian will freely admit that the British left behind government and social infrastructure without which India could not have run itself today as well as it has

For every India there's a Bangladesh, or an Afghanistan, or a Zimbabwe...
 
na
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon May 23, 2016 3:25 pm

I dont understand people who are wearing those not-so-rare Che T-shirts. They are either historical ignorants or stupidly think everything anti- is cool.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Mon May 23, 2016 4:27 pm

Quoting na (Reply 162):
I dont understand people who are wearing those not-so-rare Che T-shirts. They are either historical ignorants or stupidly think everything anti- is cool.

I sometimes wear one in privacy simply because I think a good souvenir from Cuba shouldn't go wasted. Besides, Che was a courageous man who fought for a cause he believed in rather than for personal wealth or whatever, that alone makes him worth remembering way more than dozens of European heads of states from the same era.

Whether the right way of remembering his memory is wearing a t-shirt produced in China by underpaid workers, that is a totally different question.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
sccutler
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue May 24, 2016 1:16 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 163):
Besides, Che was a courageous man who fought for a cause he believed in rather than for personal wealth or whatever, that alone makes him worth remembering way more than dozens of European heads of states from the same era.

Wealth and power are much the same thing, and Che was most determined to have it for himself.
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pvjin
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue May 24, 2016 1:30 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 164):
Wealth and power are much the same thing, and Che was most determined to have it for himself.

In the end aren't revolutions in general all about taking control of wealth from another faction to gain power over the land and its people? The difference is that under a right wing capitalist dictatorship typical for South America of that time the vast majority of the wealth is being given to the small ruling elite, while under a proper commie dictatorship some of that wealth is also used for something that improves people's lives. As an example in Cuba people still enjoy superior healthcare and education compared to people in neighbouring Haiti & DR that were controlled by right wing dictatorships for a long time.

So, the cause Che fought for was clearly quite justified.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
sccutler
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Tue May 24, 2016 9:49 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 165):
So, the cause Che fought for was clearly quite justified.

No question about that, but Che, himself, was a tool.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Che Guevara - Hero Or...?

Wed May 25, 2016 7:02 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 163):
Che was a courageous man who fought for a cause he believed in rather than for personal wealth or whatever, that alone makes him worth remembering way more than dozens of European heads of states

As did Osama bin Laden...  
Quoting na (Reply 162):
I dont understand people who are wearing those not-so-rare Che T-shirts. They are either historical ignorants or stupidly think everything anti- is cool.

As you can see above, it's often combination of both.

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