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larshjort
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 10:42 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 99):
Gentlepeeps, I give you Denmark's contribution to the motoring world:

This vehicle was so well designed that the germans bought it and still produces it to this day with the only change being different batteries and motor 29 years after being introduced 
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 11:34 am

Quoting larshjort (Reply 100):

Do you perhaps confuse this contraption with the TWIKE? The TWIKE is still produced in Germany after 20+ years, and it was originally a Swiss development from the 1990ies. I still see one of these things buzzing by my apartment!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twike



David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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larshjort
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 2:10 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 101):
Do you perhaps confuse this contraption with the TWIKE?

No I don't.

Quote:

The CityEl is a 3-wheel lightweight electric car originally designed and manufactured in Denmark, but currently made in Germany by Citycom GmbH.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CityEl
http://www.krabatt.com/unternehmen-cityel.html
139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 3:45 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 102):

Thanks, that clears it up!


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 8:05 pm

First of all, I do not think that Europeans are *afraid* of a british exit from the EU.
Rather, they would not want it - that's quite different .
Secondly, the poll has been done on the net, and we know the distorsions between straight polling, telephone polling and on line polling.
To illustrate the point, this is the original result reported in the IP
and this is another done by the *Capital* magazine :
84% of the French want a Brexit

So please leave us out of a subject which should be solely a UK problem.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 98):

1. Constitution" and the adjective "constitutional" have been banished from the text

No. From the title only.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 98):

3. The expression "free and undistorted competition" has been taken out at the request of President Sarkozy (possibly to protect as the French call them "National Champions"?

Rubbish : the reference was a lot more on those who highjack the treaty in order to distort the agreement : see on this subject Ryanair and a lot of other companies. ( EasyJet seems to have changed ). and you should in honesty refer to the fact that this sentence was only removed from the Reform Treaty - as for France *competition* is not in itself an end to the treaty ", but it still exists in many of the existing EU treaties and is moreover confirmed by a protocol of the Reform Treaty, underlining that the Internal Market system ensures that "competition is not distorted "
So, to answer the OP, I'm certainly not afraid of the Brexit. That's their privilege... may they fare well...
I just wonder what the tabloids are going to talk about whan it's over.
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pu
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 11:13 pm

I think all of the benefits of being in the EU could be implemented bilaterally between the EU and the UK much the same way the US or any large trading partner negotiates with the EU. Both the UK and the EU will make this happen.

In other words, the economic aspects of being in the EU will continue regardless of the voter's decision.

Britain could dispense with the most objectionable aspects of being in the EU with no major impact to itself. I think the two biggest complaints are (1) unlimited movement of people and (2) bureaucratic rulesmaking from Brussels. The EU continues to ignore the fact that a million+ Poles and other Eastern Europeans overwhelmingly choose London and not Rome and not Madrid; it's understandable that the UK wants special consideration for this fact.






Pu.
 
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par13del
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 02, 2016 3:51 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 92):
If the Brexit camp wins, do you think Cameron will resign ?

Why, he campaigned on giving them a say in the process and he did, now everyone has to pick a side on that issue.
If he is forced to resign it will be because of the way he has tried to force the yes vote, not his support of it, to mandate that because someone is in his government they must support YES is fundamentally wrong. In the last election, one of their mandates was to give the people a vote, if support for them meant a yes vote the referendum would be a waste of time and money.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 02, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 104):
Rubbish : the reference was a lot more on those who highjack the treaty in order to distort the agreement : see on this subject Ryanair and a lot of other companies. ( EasyJet seems to have changed ). and you should in honesty refer to the fact that this sentence was only removed from the Reform Treaty - as for France *competition* is not in itself an end to the treaty ", but it still exists in many of the existing EU treaties and is moreover confirmed by a protocol of the Reform Treaty, underlining that the Internal Market system ensures that "competition is not distorted "
So, to answer the OP, I'm certainly not afraid of the Brexit. That's their privilege... may they fare well...
I just wonder what the tabloids are going to talk about whan it's over.

Take that up with Valery Giscard d'Estaing then.

A former French President (1974-81), was president of the Convention on the Future of Europe, which drafted a new constitution, 2002-03

Those are the changes he saw.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 02, 2016 8:27 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 105):
I think all of the benefits of being in the EU could be implemented bilaterally between the EU and the UK

That's as close to a daydream as you could come to.
1/- A brexit will only give the UK two years to renegociate a series of agreements with the EU... Problem is that those will have to be accepted by a unanimous agreement of all the 27 countries of the EU.
(these agreements will cover all aspects of trade, movements of people and capital.... acceptance of trhe EU standards ... etc...)
Canada has been negociating for how many years... 10, 11 ? The US ... on TAFTA ?

2/- I understand that the game is about having all the benefits of the EU market access... without paying anything.
Guess what ?
You could ask the Norwegians who spend 70% of the UK's share on EU budget ( and compare their economy to the UK's ).
You could also ask the Swiss how much they pay in order to have access to the single market...

3/- I would have understood some level of arrogance from the Brits - who've always thought continentals were dumb.
There is probably a limit somewhere on their idiocy or their tolerance limit.. it could be right here : you made a decision, live by it .

Quoting pu (Reply 105):

In other words, the economic aspects of being in the EU will continue regardless of the voter's decision.

That's the dishonesty of the leave campaigners. and that's exactly what will never happen in all the scenarii one could think of.
The most probable outcome, at least in those next 24 months, would be Britain with the status of the most favoured nation ( WTO-wise ).
The results would be then very interesting : tariffs on trade / no more subsidiaries or agencies of all the services from the UK allowed in the EU ( that includes banks and insurance companies )... That probably means the end of the City as the operational base for Euro finances... I do not think *interesting* would also mean *pretty*... Just listen to what HSBC had to say about their base once the UK is out...

Quoting pu (Reply 105):
it's understandable that the UK wants special consideration for this fact.

...and quite a lot of Continentals are quite fed up of special considerations. There is a game on the table . Play it
and try and discuss the rules with the other players.. but don't ask to have special rules uniquely for you.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 107):


Those are the changes he saw.

...which tends to highlight the fact that the best ideas can de highjacked into a different meaning by others.
The history of the European Union is full of these examples. there is always a wise ass finding a loophole for any article.
Contrail designer
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 02, 2016 9:41 pm

Pthero.

Well thank you very much for that reply as I was in some doubt as to how to vote , but now you have convinced me to vote out.

You are quite correct in saying there will be winners and loosers should the UK vote to leave the EU with the Financial centre being probably the one to suffer most , however by mergers this can be alleviated to some degree .

Perhaps some of the bigger loosers would be the German and indeed French Auto manufacturing concerns if the UK in retaliation loaded huge tariffs onto EU produced cars. As I said before the loss of 888,000 cars imported annually by the UK from the EU is not to be sneezed at. If you think the big car manufacturers would not put huge presure on the EU to come up with a rapid solution, well i think you are wrong

Now yes the Financial centre could be under some threat if we left but similarly what about the EU 's investments in the UK such as Electricity Suppliers , water suppliers , Train companies , Airports, Docks all of which could come under some adverse pressure should there be difficulties with the EU.

Now I do not wish the EU any harm should we leave , it is just that I think the UK would fare better outside of the EU, After all the EU was originally set up with only two big nations in it [ Germany and France] and although it has expanded
there is still no room for another big European Nation.

Yes we are different to the rest of Europe, as basically we have not been invaded for a 1000 years and so we have had a very long time to develope our own customs and ways of running our country rather than most areas of Europe which have been fought over , conquered , and had systems from out side imposed on them, where as here in the UK we were left to our own devices, whether good or bad.

Anyway enough for now litllevc10
 
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pu
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 12:19 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 108):

1. Hmmmm.....so the UK out of the EU is all bad results for the UK? not one single positive?

2...and a Brexitt is all good results for the EU, then? Why doesn't the EU kick Britain out if Britian is getting so many benefits from EU membership without contributing anything in return?

3. What do you see as the UK's contribution to the EU? Why do you want them in so badly?





Pu.
 
blueflyer
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 3:01 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Now yes the Financial centre could be under some threat if we left but similarly what about the EU 's investments in the UK such as Electricity Suppliers , water suppliers , Train companies , Airports, Docks all of which could come under some adverse pressure should there be difficulties with the EU.

There will be losers on both sides of the Channel if the No wins, but I think the UK will not have the upper hand in negotiating a trade deal with the remainder of the EU. The UK takes in about 20% of goods and services exported by the rest of the EU, By comparison, over 40% of UK exports go to the rest of the EU. The next largest importer of UK goods and services, the US, takes in less than half of what the EU does.

Quoting pu (Reply 110):
so the UK out of the EU is all bad results for the UK? not one single positive?

Well, there is a positive... The UK will save 0.5% of its GDP. That is the sum total of its fiscal contribution to the EU. As long as the UK doesn't lose more than that in annual GDP by voluntarily leaving the world's biggest free trade zone, they'll be fine. Unfortunately, every non-partisan study thus far predicts a net GDP loss in many multiples of 0.5%.

The No camp can undoubtedly come up with many positives to a No victory. None of them grounded in economics however.
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 3:34 am

Quoting pu (Reply 110):
1. Hmmmm.....so the UK out of the EU is all bad results for the UK? not one single positive?

The positive is that the constant whining about the EU will stop.

Quoting pu (Reply 110):
2...and a Brexit is all good results for the EU, then? Why doesn't the EU kick Britain out if Britain is getting so many benefits from EU membership without contributing anything in return?

No it's not all benefits, it will be bad for the economy. But it could improve the EU inner workings.

Quoting pu (Reply 110):
3. What do you see as the UK's contribution to the EU? Why do you want them in so badly?

I don't think he said he wanted them in. He produced a poll saying 84% of French people want the UK out. I'd say ask the Germans those questions.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Francoflier
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 3:56 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 111):
The No camp can undoubtedly come up with many positives to a No victory. None of them grounded in economics however.

That's the sad truth.

I understand why the UK population would want to distance itself from the EU. It has become a messy, overbearing and sluggish system mired with nationalistic interests and pettiness and it's easy for a citizen lambda to feel completely out of touch with what's going on in Brussels and Strasbourg.

Uniting such a group of culturally different nations was never going to be easy, but then again no-one has ever tried it before (at least not in a peaceful way). It is far from perfect, but still much better than the 'go-it-alone' alternative, especially these days of gravitational attraction of power and influence towards the World's bigger nations.

Citizens often confuse social and economic issues, when it comes to the EU, and I think this is where the problem lies in the UK's distrust of it, especially given it's history of detached insularity.
I wish the UK well if they do exit the union, but I'm afraid the benefits of doing so are disproportionately inflated by the 'OUT' campaign.

The head-in-the-sand approach to solving Europe's problems is not limited to the UK, however. Anti-EU political stances are getting more and more popular throughout Europe, and it behooves European leaders to reconnect this enormous and indecipherable bureaucratic entity - run by an elite that has distanced itself so much from the people it should be serving - with Mr and Mrs Bloggs and their daily life and worries.
If the UK's out campaign succeeds and other members' anti-EU movements lead to other countries following suit, the EU's bureaucrats will have no one but themselves to blame...

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Perhaps some of the bigger loosers would be the German and indeed French Auto manufacturing concerns if the UK in retaliation loaded huge tariffs onto EU produced cars.

No. The biggest losers would be the UK's citizens who would now be forced to pay a lot more for their cars with their probably devalued currency. Unless you believe that all Britons will suddenly start driving Aston Martins, Rolls Royces and Morgans to work everyday?
Alternatively, I'm sure the massive amounts of German car customers in the UK will not mind switching to Lada?

Mind you, I'm sure American and Japanese car manufacturers would love it if that happened...

Economic retaliation is beyond the point, and talks of it just shows how much this has turned into a purely emotional issue rather than a level-headed debate.
Shame. Everybody stands to lose.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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pu
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 7:55 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 112):
say ask the Germans those questions.

I didn't want to be the one who invokes the implication that the Germans want the EU and want it big or bigger more than anyone. The German interest is 1. a market for German goods and 2. a more polite way to realise much of what two world wars failed to acheive: greater political force in Europe and around the world. But surely Germans or other EU supporters have less selfish reasons to offer for why the UK is beneficial to the EU?

(instead of always repeating all the benefits the EU brings to the UK)

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):

Now that the EU is giving unlimited visa-free travel to Turkey without it meeting silly requirements like freedom of speech/press and fair trials, this should nudge a few of the UK's undecideds to the Brexit side, yes?





Pu.
 
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Francoflier
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 12:48 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 114):
this should nudge a few of the UK's undecideds to the Brexit side, yes?

Unfortunately, it will.

This Visa-free deal was part of the negotiated agreement between the EU and Turkey to help alleviate the migrant crisis.
Turkey was going to help stop these migrants from making it to Europe, and I suppose one of the (major) concessions would have been Visa-free travel...

Ironically, what was supposed to be a fix for the massive and hugely unpopular migrant inflow will turn out to be even more detrimental to public opinion.
Current governments are falling out of favor in a hurry, and I expect a major political re-landscaping of Europe in the coming years.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
ozglobal
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 1:36 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 74):
Sure, crazy stuff like that isn't entirely exclusive to the UK, but the lack of realism there has reached a level that maybe the rude awakening following a "brexit" might actually be necessary.

And an end to the so far interminable string of island tantrums would be a relief for everybody else.

I'm pretty much done by now appealing to reason. Let them go – to find out what reality actually is like on their own.

        

I agree. I've no energy left to apply reasoned argument when caricature and polemic is all that is on the table. I've never heard a vision articulated by the Brexit camp on what day 1 or year 10 of an isolated Britian will look like; only a endless shopping list of half true or outright fallacious grievances.

"...So sigh not so, just let them go, and be thee blithe and bonnie, converting all your songs of woe into 'Hey, nonnie nonnie," - Shakespear - "Much Ado About Nothing"
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
victrola
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 6:14 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 116):
agree. I've no energy left to apply reasoned argument when caricature and polemic is all that is on the table. I've never heard a vision articulated by the Brexit camp on what day 1 or year 10 of an isolated Britian will look like; only a endless shopping list of half true or outright fallacious grievances.

Little England will become an island of little consequence shrouded in the mists of the Atlantic ocean, whereas The European Union, if it still exists will, with the loss of its major free market advocate, will be a group of stagnant countries strangling on its own bureaucracy.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 03, 2016 6:32 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 115):
Unfortunately, it will.

This Visa-free deal was part of the negotiated agreement between the EU and Turkey to help alleviate the migrant crisis.
Turkey was going to help stop these migrants from making it to Europe, and I suppose one of the (major) concessions would have been Visa-free travel...

Well when Turkey negotiated that deal, The EU was backed into a corner with no escape route.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 04, 2016 8:31 am

]

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 118):
Well when Turkey negotiated that deal, The EU was backed into a corner with no escape route.

Well not really as no one tried to turn the boats back. When certain countries built fences to stop the flow the flood was at least reduced to a trickle. Now the EU is talking of fining countries that do not take their quota, all to be published today so i understand

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 116):
I agree. I've no energy left to apply reasoned argument when caricature and polemic is all that is on the table. I've never heard a vision articulated by the Brexit camp on what day 1 or year 10 of an isolated Britian will look like; only a endless shopping list of half true or outright fallacious grievances.

You are quite correct about the UK 's leave campaigners not publishing any future financial plans , however the same applies to the EU remain brigade it is all threats and guesses of what we would loose, One only has to look back over the last 10 years to realize how most of the predictions of that time have had to be altered , just to name one look at the EURO. All plans are best guess work and evolve as conditions allow them too and when the result of the referendum is known then if it is too leave then plans can be worked on,

littlevc10.
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu May 05, 2016 1:34 pm

Food for thought :

Revealed: Britain 'blocked' EU bid to raise China steel tariff that could have protected the industry from cheap imports

Quote:
‘The UK is the ringleader in a blocking minority of member states that is preventing a European Commission proposal on the modernisation of Europe’s trade defence instruments.

A French diplomat added: ‘In reality, the UK has been opposing an overhaul of the EU’s anti-dumping system.’
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu May 05, 2016 6:16 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 108):
A brexit will only give the UK two years to renegociate a series of agreements with the EU.

The EU has just as much at stake as the the UK in getting these negotiations done. Look at Germany to urgently protect it's auto industry as one example.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 108):
I understand that the game is about having all the benefits of the EU market access... without paying anything.

What the UK will be paying is a quid pro quo on trade, travel, etc. And keep trade at the top

Quoting Pihero (Reply 108):
tariffs on trade

Why? The EU tosses tariffs on trade and the UK responds in kind. Who wins with that? Toyota?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 108):
but don't ask to have special rules uniquely for you.

The issue is the willingness of the EU to see reductions in their trade surplus with the UK. There is a reason why quid pro quo works.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Perhaps some of the bigger losers would be the German and indeed French Auto manufacturing concerns if the UK in retaliation loaded huge tariffs onto EU produced cars.

Which is why the EU has very strong reasons to get the job done in less than 2 years.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 113):
Uniting such a group of culturally different nations was never going to be easy,

While I love traveling to Europe I find it hard to believe that there can be real unity. First is the reality of all the different languages. Without a single language unity is going to be very different, Then there are the culture differences, I find little cultural similarities between, say, France and Italy and Germany.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 113):
The biggest losers would be the UK's citizens who would now be forced to pay a lot more for their cars with their probably devalued currency.

If the EU is currently exporting 888,000 cars a year to the UK then there is a pretty important to get the deal done within two years. Again, give and take can avoid those horrible results for both the EU and UK.

There is also a need to work things out in order to maintain strong relations in the area of NATO operations. Unless the EU is happy to shut down NATO there needs to be minimal or no barriers for operations. I believe that that the US (especially if Donald Trump wins in November) will ben looking at how well the UK and the EU get along after the election and, yes, there will be some (can you say "Trump) who would be happy to either leave or get significantly more funding from the UK/EU side.
 
ozglobal
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu May 05, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 116):

Quoting Klaus (Reply 74):
Sure, crazy stuff like that isn't entirely exclusive to the UK, but the lack of realism there has reached a level that maybe the rude awakening following a "brexit" might actually be necessary.

And an end to the so far interminable string of island tantrums would be a relief for everybody else.

I'm pretty much done by now appealing to reason. Let them go – to find out what reality actually is like on their own.

        

I agree. I've no energy left to apply reasoned argument when caricature and polemic is all that is on the table. I've never heard a vision articulated by the Brexit camp on what day 1 or year 10 of an isolated Britian will look like; only a endless shopping list of half true or outright fallacious grievances.

"...So sigh not so, just let them go, and be thee blithe and bonny, converting all your songs of woe into 'Hey, nonny nonny," - Shakespear - "Much Ado About Nothing"

On reflection, the whole poem (song) just fits so well:

"Sigh no more, ladies, sigh nor more;
Men were deceivers ever;
One foot in sea and one on shore,
To one thing constant never;
Then sigh not so,
But let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny;
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into. Hey nonny, nonny.

Sing no more ditties, sing no mo,
Or dumps so dull and heavy;
The fraud of men was ever so,
Since summer first was leavy.
Then sigh not so,
But let them go,
And be you blithe and bonny,
Converting all your sounds of woe
Into. Hey, nanny, nanny."

- Shakespear - "Much Ado About Nothing"
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 07, 2016 8:39 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
What is it with the penchant to shorten, abbreviate, combine, or all of the above certain words to make some catchy, annoying word or phrase? I can only assume Brexit means British (Britain) Exit.

Yes, I also wonder about the very same thing sometimes. It's like a forced meme. Awkward.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
It has always been my position that unless the EU members, states and citizens, stopped thinking of themselves first as French, German, Spanish, Greek, et al., and began thinking of themselves as Europeans, that the EU would fail as a coherent political entity.

The nations you mention all think of themselves as European, but if you mean European *first*, well I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

Simply because, there is no European identity as such, no specific culture, no specific language, no specific history that can define a European identity above national identity. European countries share a lot of history an culture in a broad sense, and the EU sort of reflects that (in that the EU isn't and never will be a nation state).

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 17):
Except the infamous court in Strasbourg has NOTHING to do with EU membership. Only semiliterate readers of The Sun think it does.

I think you're being too kind   In my experience at least, a lot of people (especially people in the Anglosphere) think the infamous Strassbourg court is a part of the EU.

But on topic, I welcome and support "Brexit" (if you want to call it that) and sincerely hope that the UK will vote no. However, I'm not from the UK, and unlike Obama, I just don't think it is appropriate for me to encourage voters either way.

But really, really, consider voting NO to EU membership this summer, my dear UK A.net members  

Pretty please!!
Tonight we fly
 
NAV30
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 07, 2016 11:48 am

My father (born 1900) had the misfortune to be called up to fight in both World Wars, and my own earliest memories (born 1939) include being bombed by the Germans and Italians in the Second one. My quiet and inoffensive mother had to travel into London every day, putting up with the bombs, to serve as an Admiralty secretary........

As far as I'm concerned, 'European Union' - and the end of any more European-inspired World Wars - was the best thing that ever happened.............

I'm 'neutral' on the subject of 'European Union' as such - but I sure hope that nothing like the 1940s ever happens again........

[Edited 2016-05-07 05:12:10]
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 07, 2016 2:52 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 123):
The nations you mention all think of themselves as European, but if you mean European *first*, well I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

Simply because, there is no European identity as such, no specific culture, no specific language, no specific history that can define a European identity above national identity. European countries share a lot of history an culture in a broad sense, and the EU sort of reflects that (in that the EU isn't and never will be a nation state).

More and more people move around the EU, for studies and work. Of course even before the EU it happened, my mother was born in Italy, most of my family lives and work in Italy, France or both. My best friend is married to a woman from the Netherlands, one of my French-Italian cousin is living with a Spaniard, another lives in Norway with a local woman (Norway isn't in the EU I know).

Each country will (and should) keep its culture, however more and more aspects of life will get closer and make us all feel European. Look at the threads on this forum about gun ownership or the death penalty or climate change, all those subjects have been settled a long time ago in all of the EU.
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 07, 2016 3:20 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 125):
make us all feel European.

Yet more and more people I talk to feel less European. You will never get to a stage where citizens say they are Europeans before their French/Italian/Spanish/Greek/British identities. We saw what happened when people were thrown together under one country it was called Yugoslavia and a very recent European war which Europe had little powers to stop.

Co operation always has been and always will be the way forward not a US of E.
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 07, 2016 6:16 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 123):
unlike Obama, I just don't think it is appropriate for me to encourage voters either way.

I read a while back that the US prefers the the UK remain in the EU because the UK can provide a position of the US to the EU at times.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 125):
Look at the threads on this forum about gun ownership or the death penalty or climate change, all those subjects have been settled a long time ago in all of the EU.

That only shows that "Old Europe" is far more advanced than the US in many areas. What a surprise.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 07, 2016 9:23 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 123):
The nations you mention all think of themselves as European, but if you mean European *first*, well I'm pretty sure that's never going to happen.

Yet people from all over the continent travel freely and feel completely at home in any other country in the EU, plus a handful outside, like Norway and Switzerland. I love the fact that I can spend the money in my pocket in 18 other countries: these countries don't feel so foreign anymore, the way they used to.

It's kind of like wearing two layers of clothing: the inner one being your national identity, and the outer the European one.
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 1:59 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 125):
More and more people move around the EU, for studies and work. Of course even before the EU it happened, my mother was born in Italy, most of my family lives and work in Italy, France or both. My best friend is married to a woman from the Netherlands, one of my French-Italian cousin is living with a Spaniard, another lives in Norway with a local woman (Norway isn't in the EU I know).

There's no lack of people considering themselves European, it's a concrete part people's culture (what's left of it anyway), but being European is not a primary thing. One can't be European without being from somewhere in Europe. This isn't a nationalistic statement, it's a statement of reality. We're from somewhere, some area, some place *in* Europe, and as such we're European. But if you said to me, "Hi I'm from Europe!", that would not infer much information to me at all. Do you see what I'm saying?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 127):
I read a while back that the US prefers the the UK remain in the EU because the UK can provide a position of the US to the EU at times.

I think that's probably quite correct  
Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 128):
Yet people from all over the continent travel freely and feel completely at home in any other country in the EU, plus a handful outside, like Norway and Switzerland. I love the fact that I can spend the money in my pocket in 18 other countries: these countries don't feel so foreign anymore, the way they used to.

Agreed, but that doesn't contradict what you quoted.
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winterlight
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 2:14 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 123):
But really, really, consider voting NO to EU membership this summer, my dear UK A.net members

I fully intend to.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 2:45 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 115):
Current governments are falling out of favor in a hurry, and I expect a major political re-landscaping of Europe in the coming years.

And I fear the outcome of this Change. What does this rediculous nationalism help? Nothing. People voting for a Brexit are in fact voting for a stronger India, Russia and China.

We Need a reformed EU, but we need a stronger EU, not a weaker one.
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 3:43 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 130):
I fully intend to.

I'd do the same thing if I was a UK citizen, but I have a question (because I'm pretty far away from the UK mainstream), why isn't this referendum a done deal? The polls I've seen seem to hover around 50/50 for and against.

Half the UK is pro EU? Only half wants out?
Tonight we fly
 
Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 8:08 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 132):
Half the UK is pro EU? Only half wants out?

And, after all the years in the EU, only half want to remain in?
 
blueflyer
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 8:51 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 121):
If the EU is currently exporting 888,000 cars a year to the UK then there is a pretty important to get the deal done within two years. Again, give and take can avoid those horrible results for both the EU and UK.

That there is such a focus on a specific industry shows how weaker overall the UK's position would be compared to the EU in negotiating future trade agreements.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 131):
We Need a reformed EU, but we need a stronger EU, not a weaker one.

A goal that Brexit might precipitate. A stronger union is possible with less unenthusiastic members braking from within.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 132):
why isn't this referendum a done deal?

Why should it be a "done deal" one way or the other?
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 123):
But really, really, consider voting NO to EU membership this summer, my dear UK A.net members

My mind has been made up. I fully intend to vote NO to EU membership.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 09, 2016 10:25 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 121):

What the UK will be paying is a quid pro quo on trade, travel, etc. And keep trade at the top

That is not what is happening to any state outside the EU. You should read more about it ... It"s not really the same thingt as playing marbles in a schoolyard, is it ?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 121):

Why? The EU tosses tariffs on trade and the UK responds in kind. Who wins with that? Toyota?

I do not know what your argument is : tariffs are already and will be *tossed* on any product that doesn't originate in the confines of the EU... That's the reason Japanese auto makers have factories in the UK ( everybody pretends it's all *common market* goods ). But the parts made outside the EU are taxed.
That rfeminds me of a thread about Airbus UK in the event of Brexit : These wings will be slapped a minimum tax of 4 %.
Just imagione them manufactured in Germany : less transport and no tax. It doesn't need an economics Nobel prize to know the obvious solution.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 121):
The issue is the willingness of the EU to see reductions in their trade surplus with the UK. There is a reason why quid pro quo works.

... and why should they reduce their trade surplus ?
As a matter of fact, you've put one finger on the UK's main problem : the greatest part of the economy is services, mainly banking and insurances... Difficult to export if you're not part of the Union... and do you really think that the Europeans would still allow the City to manage the Euro ( or even worse, still be the main European place for banks and monetary services ? )
Yeah ! Dream on.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 121):
the reality of all the different languages. Without a single language unity is going to be very different,

Vivfe la différence ! Travelling in Europe brings the wonders of many traditions, many cultures and, yes, many languages. A lot more preferable to a bland, boring pseudo-culture made of the basest ideas publicity and mind control allow people to get.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 125):

More and more people move around the EU, for studies and work.

One should never forget what all these schemes like Erasmus have done to the European idea. My son speaks fluent German and English, thanks toi an internship in Koln. Two of my nephews studied in Italy and Spain. Don't ask them if they felt Europeans, they won't understand the question: they are.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Yes we are different to the rest of Europe, as basically we have not been invaded for a 1000 years and so we have had a very long time to develope our own customs and ways of running our country rather than most areas of Europe which have been fought over , conquered , and had systems from out side imposed on them, where as here in the UK we were left to our own devices, whether good or bad.

Typical view of History from across the Manche :
We are back to the famous "[i )Fog over the Channel, the continent cut off...[/i]"
But HIstory is also about you lot being kicked - severely, utterly - out of the Continent, with the definitive loss of 2/3 of France and any claim you could have on the French throne. ( Something the average English do not know, thinking that Azincourt was the the thing that broke the French... Funny that I have never heard one referring to the battle of Castillon ).
Once again , I do think you are entitled to your own vision of your future. I just don't think you have a balanced, rational,concept of what Brexit is about... everything being out of slogans, mantras and very simplistic ideas on trade and economy.
If Brexit it is, then allow me to wish youy fair winds... and good riddance.
In that case I really really wish to see, we, especially the nucleus Six will be unhindered to seek and implement a two- tier Europe - in the beginning.

Bye Bye !
Contrail designer
 
NAV30
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 4:50 am

"But HIstory is also about you lot being kicked - severely, utterly - out of the Continent, with the definitive loss of 2/3 of France and any claim you could have on the French throne. ( Something the average English do not know, thinking that Azincourt was the the thing that broke the French."..

A curious view of history, Pihero?

Can't avoid thinking of more recent events - that, had it not been for the UK and the United States, France might still be a captive German colony?  

[Edited 2016-05-09 21:53:53]
 
Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 4:57 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 134):
That there is such a focus on a specific industry shows how weaker overall the UK's position would be compared to the EU in negotiating future trade agreements.
Quoting Pihero (Reply 136):
You should read more about it .

Sadly our political BS has been raised to the point that it takes the majority of my reading time. I was able to focus on the UK vote when I was in Paris and London in April.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 136):
That reminds me of a thread about Airbus UK in the event of Brexit : These wings will be slapped a minimum tax of 4 %.

And the UK will slap a tax on Airbus planes purchased by UK airlines? Both sides get hurt - not bright in my mind.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 136):
It doesn't need an economics Nobel prize to know the obvious solution.

Unless the Nobel Prize winner includes the number of Airbus planes that are sold in the UK. I had some great flights on BA flying the Airbus. Does the EU really want to shaft BA? Maybe Boeing can fill up the Airbus UK factories.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 136):
do you really think that the Europeans would still allow the City to manage the Euro

Probably not at first, but if the new managers get poorer performance than the UK managers that might change.

The other side I don't see brought into the discussions is the impact that a difficult split on NATO and the future of that organization. There are some people over here who believe we should get out. Including Trump based on some of his comments. While I am not in that camp I believe that there needs to be some "friendly negotiations that includes quid pro quo" in order to avoid adversely impact future NATO relationships or operations.
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 5:25 am

If the No vote wins, the UK will not sign up to EFTA. The UK wants access to European markets, but not at the cost of having to accept EU rules and pay into the EU budget. So says Michael Gove, leader of the No campaign, who remains convinced the UK will be able to negotiate bilateral agreements advantageous to the UK.
https://next.ft.com/content/0c5c74bc-151e-11e6-b197-a4af20d5575e#axzz48719fIAD
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 6:09 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 131):
We Need a reformed EU, but we need a stronger EU, not a weaker one.

A stronger EU will only make it worse. EU has too much power already. Especially countries like Germany,
France, Italy and Spain have way too much power at the cost of the power from lesser populated countries.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 6:34 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 133):
And, after all the years in the EU, only half want to remain in?

Well, the last 25 years in the UK has been a steady and constant barrage of anti-EU propaganda, the NO side has a very clear set of talking points and even if half of them were true, it would be insane to even consider to vote YES on continued EU membership.

If anything more time in the EU should have created more anti-EU sentiment, if the NO side had only a shred of truth to their agenda.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 134):
Why should it be a "done deal" one way or the other?

Why wouldn't it be? What kind of a question is that?
Tonight we fly
 
TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 6:41 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 140):
Especially countries like Germany,
France, Italy and Spain have way too much power at the cost of the power from lesser populated countries

And you really think that smaller countries would actually have m o r e influence alone?

There are few thinkable institutions where smaller countries have stronger influence than inside the EU.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 7:57 am

Oh the irony: just been listening to an item on RTE News which included an interview with a man who wants Britain to leave the EU because he believes the country would be better able to control immigration.

He was an immigrant from Iran . . .  
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 8:56 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 142):
And you really think that smaller countries would actually
have m o r e influence alone?

They would. As it is now, a bunch of French, German, Spanish and Italian politicians are taking decisions
that ALL member countries have to follow/implement. EU's members have lost their own decision right
since EU-laws trumps national laws. By making EU more powerful, even more decisions would be moved
from local/regional/national councils/parliaments to Brussels. That is not something I want.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 9:51 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 143):
He was an immigrant from Iran . . .

Pretty common in a lot of communities to be honest including in the USA. People who have settled from other countries often have views on restricting uncontrolled immigration. Even the Irish in Britain.

The Irish for example could easily take in 100K of Syrian refugees but when its mentioned they do not seem too keen on it.  
 
TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 10:09 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 144):
As it is now, a bunch of French, German, Spanish and Italian politicians are taking decisions
that ALL member countries have to follow/implement

Yes, then lets go back to our old System. You know what: Germany adopts rules, and Sweden will have to follow because otherwise the german market is closed for you.
Much more influence then, I guess.
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 11:40 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 145):
Pretty common in a lot of communities to be honest including in the USA. People who have settled from other countries often have views on restricting uncontrolled immigration. Even the Irish in Britain.

It's brass neck for any immigrant to deny others what they availed of themselves.
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 1:00 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 136):
But HIstory is also about you lot being kicked - severely, utterly - out of the Continent, with the definitive loss of 2/3 of France and any claim you could have on the French throne. ( Something the average English do not know, thinking that Azincourt was the the thing that broke the French... Funny that I have never heard one referring to the battle of Castillon ).
Once ag

Well I was not trying to teach anybody history just stating the fact that we had been left alone to developed our own rules and customs, which are sometimes very different to those developed on the continent.

I am surprised you brought up the Battle of Castillion [1453] as the French had already taken Bordeaux and the surrounding area in 1451, only for the citizen of Bordeaux to plead with th English king Henry VI to come and throw the French forces out. This they did some 2 years later with a force of 3,000 men the Bordeaux and the surounding area was taken from the French forces. Now wisely the French fought their battle at Castillon where they were pretty sure of winning and that was the result and the English left France with the exception of Calais. So the only reason the English were there was at the request of the citizens of Bordeaux, who did not want to live under the French King

Now as an example of interfering, the French got themselves involved in the English King John troubles with his Barons and landed a small force under the Dauphins control, but like at Castillon when the home forces got their act together the foreign forces were kicked out. Just as a side to this , our small castle here in Hampshire was besieged for 2 weeks by this French Force, after which they could surrender with honour according to the rules of war in those days. However I am sure there was some embarrassment when just 1 sargent at arms and 12 foot soldiers marched out to surrender

Anyway all ancient history now.

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 147):
t's brass neck for any immigrant to deny others what they availed of themselves.

No it is not as the UK has been taking immigrants for 100 of years [ mind yo we have exported a large number of people as well ], However I do not know if this Iranian came here legally or not. If he is here legally then he has every right to complain about people trying to get here illegally. People have less reservations against people who come here legally than those who try to force their way in.

[quote=TheSonntag,reply=146]Yes, then lets go back to our old System. You know what: Germany adopts rules, and Sweden will have to follow because otherwise the german market is closed for you.
Much more influence then, I guess.

Yes that might be true, but at least they have the choice as to whether they want to adopt these rules and therefore trade in Germany. Also when Germany exports goods to say the USA or India or China they have to adapt their goods so as to comply with the rules of those countries, They do this without having any say in those rules

lttlevc10
 
TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 1:03 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 148):
hey do this without having any say in those rules

Yes, and this would be the beginning of the end for Europe. Together Europe is stronger. I do not like the EU beaureaucracy either, but I fail to see that nationalism of the 19th century is a better solution in any regard.

Believing that Germany, UK or Sweden alone would be in a better Position against China, India and so on than the EU is naive.

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