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Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 1:36 pm

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 144):
By making EU more powerful, even more decisions would be moved
from local/regional/national councils/parliaments to Brussels. That is not something I want.

The answer is :

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 146):

Yes, then lets go back to our old System. You know what: Germany adopts rules, and Sweden will have to follow because otherwise the german market is closed for you.
Much more influence then, I guess.

    
    

...or launch a Swexit (What a catchy name ! )

Quoting vc10 (Reply 148):
So the only reason the English were there was at the request of the citizens of Bordeaux, who did not want to live under the French King

In the EU I would sue you for revisionism... Your idea of history is really something ! See the oirigins of the so-called one hundred year war : the influence of someone called Elinor d'Aquitaine and all the territories she controlled and wxent to England after she was repudiated... Those were some 1/3 of the nowadays territory of France... and you lost them. Period.
See : another 44 days and I will probably open a very good bottle of Champagne. I have a few in my cellar.

Pleeeeeaaase make it happen !!!
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Braybuddy
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue May 10, 2016 3:03 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 148):
If he is here legally then he has every right to complain about people trying to get here illegally.

He didn't specify, he just said "immigrants". Which is ironic, and hypocritical.
 
Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 1:00 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 137):
had it not been for the UK and the United States, France might still be a captive German colony?  

On our river cruise out of Paris we went to the English Channel. On one day we took a day trip to Omaha Beach and the American Military Cemetery next to it. That stop at Omaha Beach made it clear the challenges that were faced in getting over the cliffs. The Cemetery made it clear what sacrifice was required. An emotional day and one I recommend to anyone who has the opportunity.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 8:52 am

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 137):
had it not been for the UK and the United States, France might still be a captive German colony?

Missed that one, and thanks to ken to notice it.
Problem, dear Nav is that, as always, you have a narrow view on most subjects :
1/- If the beach head in Normandy was established to *liberate* France, please find me just one of the military chiefs speech mentioning that. There were quite a few generals, marshalls, admirals, prime ministers..., but apart from De Gaulle, not one did.

2/- It's quite OK to visit the beaches in Normandy and reflect on the blood that had been spilt there...
Another visit would be interesting : the remains of allied-bombed cities of the province and the museums ( Caen in particular ).
Funny, it's never mentioned by the omaha cemetary visitors...

3/- Liberators ? Strange ones who dropped over France 1/3 of the bombs they used on the European theatre... Yes, one third !, just slightly less than over nazi Germany which was supposed to be the enemy !

I live in a small town which saw 85% destruction from allied bombers... Reason ? A V1 assembly workshop four kilometers away... and guess what ? among the bomber units involved was the so-famous Squadron 617 dam busters. Precision bombing ? What a joke ! Utter incompetence or they just didn't give a damn about killing some damn frogs ? Or maybe the flak positions around the workshops were too accurate and dangerous ?

See Bombings of Caen

That instance led Beevor, the British historian of the *invasion* - among other well researched books like *Berlin* - to call it "close to a war crime"..I would go a lot further...

4/- German colony ? Why don't you say the same thing to the Danes, the Norwegians - with a certain Quisling -, the Dutch and basically all of western Europe... and why they did not liberate the Poles ( that's some betrayal, btw !) and all the easter Europe states generously gifted to Stalin ?

5/- Finally, what the allies wanted was to establish their own European colonial area : The plan had never meant to liberate France , but to establish an AMGOT - "Allied Military Governmlent of Occupied Territories", with US and UK-trained *administrators*, US-printed francs...etc...

See AMGOT

The last sentence is remarquable : "Excluded from the Yalta conference in 1945 and dependent on the US, France became a key part of the US sphere of influence. But only vigorous resistance, internal and external, had saved it from becoming a US protectorate."
All the above explain most of de Gaulle's attitude towards the US or the UK .

[Edited 2016-05-11 01:58:12]
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TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 11:13 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 153):
Strange ones who dropped over France 1/3 of the bombs they used on the European theatre..

To be fair, those parts were all occupied by the German Wehrmacht. The netherlands were also bombed by allies a lot. If the enemy is on enemy territory, you bomb it. French artillery also shelled the outskirts of Verdun in WW1, despite being on France.
I think it is fair to say France was liberated by the allies. That each single Nation also had their own interests is true but this does not make this achievement any smaller.

Be this as it may be, what annoys me on this discussion and generally on A.net is that the whole Brexit and EU discussion is so backwards oriented.
The Facts are quite easy: Since the 1950s Europe has peace and we are all doing better than 1945.

What is so wrong about peace, cooperation and prosperity?
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 11:23 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 154):
If the enemy is on enemy territory, you bomb it.

Read the linked article on Caen first.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 154):
French artillery also shelled the outskirts of Verdun in WW1, despite being on France.

You should have added *evacuated*. Not one civilian had been killed then.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 154):
What is so wrong about peace, cooperation and prosperity?

Yep ! What ? especially from the same people who opposed the Scottish independence not so very long ago.
I seem to remember slogans like "United and stronger"... or something very much similar.   

...and IMO if there is a population that is farthest from the englanders, it's the Scots, isn't it ?

[Edited 2016-05-11 04:51:09]
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NAV30
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 11:40 am

One simple question, Pihero.

Would you have preferred the British to have 'done a deal' with the Nazi Germans in 1940, made peace, and left France as part of Hitler's 'Third Reich' until the present day?

[Edited 2016-05-11 04:45:48]
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 11:51 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 154):
The Facts are quite easy: Since the 1950s Europe has peace and we are all doing better than 1945.

Really? I wonder what were those B52's turning over northeastern Hungary in the late nineties doing...
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Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 11:52 am

Nav,
I won't get engaged in an idiotic *could have been* scenario with you.
So give it up !
That would be a really big waste of time.

[Edited 2016-05-11 04:54:08]
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NAV30
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 11:56 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 158):
I won't get engaged in an idiotic *could have been* scenario with you

It's not 'could have been,.' pal - it WOULD have been............
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 12:02 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 157):
Really? I wonder what were those B52's turning over northeastern Hungary in the late nineties doing...

Did they bomb anyone ?
Was there a war I haven't heard of ?
Please enlighten me / us.
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TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 12:03 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 157):
Really? I wonder what were those B52's turning over northeastern Hungary in the late nineties doing...

A good example on what nationalism has caused in Europe.

But yes, so far there has not been a single armed conflict in the European Union (ok maybe Northern Ireland and ETA do Count, but thats it).
 
NAV30
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 12:16 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 160):
Did they bomb anyone ?

We're talking about 1940-1. And yes, the Nazis DID bomb people - including me, on occasion.........
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 1:02 pm

Sonntag,,

Yes i agre with you about there being no armed conflicts within the EU but if you look at the site below it lists the conflicts in Europe Century by Century and with the exception of of the Crimean War there was only two major conflicts in Europe after the defeat of Napoleon in 1815 , the invasion of Spain by the French in 1821 and the Prussian -Franco war in 1870/71 . So you could say there was a peace of sorts in Europe for at least 50 years with no EU.

Now you could say there were lots of wars of Independence and uprisings scattered across the continent, but you can also see that there were uprisings etc in Europe since the end of WW2 admittedly not within the boundaries of EU at the time. These uprisings in both centuries seemed to have one thing in common the local population objecting to an outdated feudal system or being ruled from an external power.

Now if the EU continues with it's federal agenda [ well that is how it seems from here ] eventually certain populations will start to object and then there could be more uprisings. If the EU stayed as a free trade area with certain trading standards applying across the board then I think that would be fine, but you know that politicians always want to tinker with something even if it is not broke.

Now Germany with her central position in Europe and her strong economy will over the years take a more prominent and dominant position in the EU ,and this could antagonise certain countries no matter how well it is meant.

Now here in the UK many people do not want to be part of this advancing Federalism , but would still like to trade and have friendly relationship with this new super state , we just do not want to be ruled by it. Now how many people in the UK feel like this we are about to find out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conflicts_in_Europe#18th_century

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Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 1:47 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 162):
We're talking about 1940-1.

No, we're not unless you have another definition of *the late nineties*... and B-52's...
which wouldn't surprise me, knowing you .

[Edited 2016-05-11 06:51:30]
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TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 2:17 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 163):
only two major conflicts in Europe after the defeat of Napoleon in 1815 , the invasion of Spain by the French in 1821 and the Prussian -Franco war in 1870/71

There were a lot more, like German-Danish war in the 1860s and some other wars. They had a smaller scale, granted, but those conflicts were still very bloody.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 163):
If the EU stayed as a free trade area with certain trading standards applying across the board then I think that would be fine

I know this is the English Approach, but the EU was always more than just trade. To me, Europe is more than just trade.

Look at how much all Europeans actually have in common. Human rights, freedom, liberal legislation, the whole "western way of life" is something we share in Europe. Even Football Comes to mind.
Call me naive, but Europe is more than just individual interests paired for the best interests of everyone.

I agree the whole EU political system is flawed. But not every stupid idea is the EUs fault. EU - bashing is a very convenient way for politicians all over europe to disguise your own faults.
And still, EU is a way to give smaller member states much more influence than they would have otherwise. It is a sometimes annoying, but actually w o r k i n g way of solving conflicts and interests amicably. Implying EU is only for the benefit of Germany is just B/S, for example.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 3:31 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
here were a lot more, like German-Danish war in the 1860s and some other wars.

The Schleswig wars as they are called nowadays,
Plus the Austro-Prussian warsplus the Serbio-hungarian war...etc...
all involving states of the EU.
But of course, just a small revision of history to help one's argument won't hurt, will it ?

Quoting vc10 (Reply 163):
invasion of Spain by the French in 1821

If I'm not mistaken, it was an intervention on behalf of the legitimate king of Spain, wasn't it ?
In the same vein, you should call *invasions* all the British part-takinjg in European conflicts, especially all these coalitions against the French Republic ( what did it do to you ? ) - and later Empire. So Waterloo was an invasion... Again doiuble standards ?

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
the EU was always more than just trade. To me, Europe is more than just trade.

I can't agree more and I share that sentiment, probably for the same reasons.
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 153):
1/- If the beach head in Normandy was established to *liberate* France, please find me just one of the military chiefs speech mentioning that. There were quite a few generals, marshalls, admirals, prime ministers..., but apart from De Gaulle, not one did.

Winston Churchill did in speech to parliament to announce the D-Day landings. I believe he called them a "Liberating Assault"
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 4:58 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
It is a sometimes annoying, but actually w o r k i n g way of solving conflicts and interests amicably. Implying EU is only for the benefit of Germany is just B/S, for example.

I think I did not say it would be to the benefit of Germany , but because of it's position and strong economy it will slowly but surely take the leading and dominant role, whether on purpose or by accident, it is what will happen. Also i agree that not all the EU's decision are bad, and yes we do as group of nations have a lot in common, but I come back to the issue that some people in the UK do not want to be part of this ever increasing Federal Europe.

By the way you know better than to mention football  

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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 6:26 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 141):
Why wouldn't it be? What kind of a question is that?

How about "because the world isn't black and white"?

In reality it probably won't make much difference either way to the UK. There's going to be little change in access to EU markets, and no real change in the conditions which attract investment to the UK. On the flip side it's not going to suddenly turn into a libertarian small-government paradise either- that's never been a characteristic of UK politics. I think the vote reflects the fact that the voters don't really see a clear advantage one way or the other.

It's also unlikely to make a whole lot of difference to the EU. It might temporarily marginally weaken its image, but all those hoping for it to collapse are probably going to be disappointed.
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SB744
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 6:33 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
I know this is the English Approach, but the EU was always more than just trade. To me, Europe is more than just trade.

"Europe" is a landmass on a map. It's not a common people any more than Africans or Asians are all the same.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
Look at how much all Europeans actually have in common. Human rights, freedom, liberal legislation, the whole "western way of life" is something we share in Europe.

That's certainly not true. It's a narcissistic way of giving oneself a pat on the back. Not every member state shares the same ideas of those things. I can tell you with certainty that the democratic values in Bulgaria are quite a bit different from even your own.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
And still, EU is a way to give smaller member states much more influence than they would have otherwise.

But still subordinate to the interests of the most influential countries...well, country.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 7:25 pm

Quoting SB744 (Reply 170):

"Europe" is a landmass on a map.

EU stands for *European Union*, a number of countries belonging to one continent with same goals.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 169):
It's not a common people any more than Africans or Asians are all the same.

Who, in this thread mentioned that ? apart from you ?

Quoting SB744 (Reply 170):
It's a narcissistic way of giving oneself a pat on the back.

That's rich, coming from the country where everything should be accepted for their *oneness* and *uniqueness*, even in this thread. Talk of calling the pot black   

Quoting SB744 (Reply 170):
I can tell you with certainty that the democratic values in Bulgaria are quite a bit different from even your own.

In this case, please enlighten us as to these differences. We are really interested.

Quoting SB744 (Reply 170):
still subordinate to the interests of the most influential countries...well, country.

Again, examples should be welcome... but they never come.
The problem is that mostr of the out partisans do not have a really logical or rational idea on what the EU is, like
- "Non elected peoiple rulke in Bruxelles", as if the ncivil servants in the UK were elected, a country where half of the parliament houses are certainly NOT elected but appointed. Heard of the Lords ?
- "Have a better control of our borders"', as if France is not doing that for them in Calais. Macron, who is a loud mouth said he would give up control of these migrants and let them free to cross the Manche. I say Yeah !..
Ad lib...

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 167):
Winston Churchill did in speech to parliament to announce the D-Day landings. I believe he called them a "Liberating Assault"

I wasn't talking of a politician's speech. I was referring to any *order of the day*, any peep talk military leaders address the troops before a battle.
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pu
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 7:28 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 131):
People voting for a Brexit are in fact voting for a stronger India, Russia and China.

India is of no concern, but as to Russia and China:

1 Russia: The EU's half-ass reaction to Ukraine/Crimea and 10 years of Putinism is probably a reason fueling the Brexit idea. The US alone is keeping Russia out of Europe. The EU has sent a very strongly worded email to Russia about their provocations, the US sends tanks and fighters and keeps a constellation of spy and weaponised satellites available for EUropean use. Militarily, I'd much rather get closer to the US than the EU.

2 China not a geopolitical threat like Russia and mainly an economic threat. So what. They will succeed or fail on their own; and actually their "success" is already this year revealed as reliant on a lot of smoke and mirrors.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 131):
but we need a stronger EU, not a weaker one.

I define stronger as militarily able to confront Russia and ISIS without US help. I define stronger as economically unified in confronting these threats. Again, I think UK joining with the US is stronger in its own values and belief in projecting world power than it is in joining the very talky but very impotent EU.

....basically what I'm saying is that if foreign threats like China, Russia and ISIS are a top concern, the EU doesn't seem to do much about it; while UK leaving the EU and getting closer to America might be more aligned with their traditional way of confronting threats head on.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 139):
convinced the UK will be able to negotiate bilateral agreements advantageous to the UK.

It seems to me the exporters have more to worry about than the importers. The UK is a net importer.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 165):
Implying EU is only for the benefit of Germany is just B/S, for example.

Not a lot of Germans are against the EU.

You should admit the benefits of the EU are greater for some and lesser others. German exports free of tariffs and a German-controlled currency do not benefit everyone equally, most especially net importers.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 164):
another definition of *the late nineties*... and B-52's...

Only with US intervention like B-52s, was the war in Europe of the late 90s smothered into its current state of merely awkward peace. The Balkans remain strangely immune to all the peace-bringing benefits of the EU.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 163):
here in the UK many people do not want to be part of this advancing Federalism

Federalism is really the issue.

Everyone should give it some thought, not just the UK.

In the US, Texas complains about their federal government in Washington, Utah complains about Washington and so forth. There is never a time in a federal system where all the components are totally happy with their contributions and benefits from being in the system. Culturally, there is very little difference between Chicago or Atlanta or Houston so federalism works in the US. Different values.....different tastes...different fears/prejudices in Europe make federalism harder (obviously!).




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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 172):
I define stronger as militarily able to confront Russia and ISIS without US help. I define stronger as economically unified in confronting these threats. Again, I think UK joining with the US is stronger in its own values and belief in projecting world power than it is in joining the very talky but very impotent EU.

....basically what I'm saying is that if foreign threats like China, Russia and ISIS are a top concern, the EU doesn't seem to do much about it; while UK leaving the EU and getting closer to America might be more aligned with their traditional way of confronting threats head on.

The UK has never wanted an EU military and is still against it. Being allied with the US just means following the US president's orders.
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 8:10 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 169):
How about "because the world isn't black and white"?

Clearly you're not familiar with the reason why this referendum is taking place at all. It's pretty black and white.
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zckls04
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 8:13 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 171):
Who, in this thread mentioned that ? apart from you ?

I think you may have misquoted there. I didn't say any such thing.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 174):
Clearly you're not familiar with the reason why this referendum is taking place at all. It's pretty black and white.

To you perhaps. Many people understand nuance.
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SB744
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 117):
The European Union, if it still exists will, with the loss of its major free market advocate, will be a group of stagnant countries strangling on its own bureaucracy.

So, not a whole lot different than it already is?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 171):
EU stands for *European Union*, a number of countries belonging to one continent with same goals.

Thanks. Now I'll point you to the quote to which I was actually responding: "Europe is more than just trade." "Europe" is a geographical landmass. It is not an identity, no matter how much you wish it were.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 171):
That's rich, coming from the country where everything should be accepted for their *oneness* and *uniqueness*, even in this thread. Talk of calling the pot black   

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean. I don't speak for the UK, nor does anyone else in this thread. This sense that there is some superior set of "European" values is a dangerous and astonishingly arrogant idea indeed.

Quoting Pu (Reply 172):
Federalism is really the issue.

Everyone should give it some thought, not just the UK.

  
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 10:04 pm

On a lighter note...

The EU leave campaign has been fined £50k by the information commissioner for spamming. They did not adhere to the Privacy and Electronic Communications Regulations.

The Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003 are derived from European law. They implement European Directive 2002/58/EC, also known as ‘the e-privacy Directive’.

Oh the irony.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 10:07 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 175):
I think you may have misquoted there.

My apologies; it was of course, our friend SB744, and the cause is the site's software. I should be more careful in the future.

Quoting Pu (Reply 172):

It seems to me the exporters have more to worry about than the importers. The UK is a net importer.

One of the fallacies of the out partisans : Consider that the EU is a monolithic bloc.
For France, for instance, exports to the UK amount to 6 to 8 % of the total, and France has a positive balance of trade with it.
On the other hand, when Britain exports to the EU, yes, it deals with a bloc with unique rules and regulations ... nearly 55 % of the UK exports in value, moire than 1/3 in services...
Yes, you're right, exporters have more to worry. Problem is you've mistaken the roles.
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Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed May 11, 2016 10:47 pm

Quoting SB744 (Reply 176):

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean. I don't speak for the UK, nor does anyone else in this thread. This sense that there is some superior set of "European" values is a dangerous and astonishingly arrogant idea indeed.

Maybe you didn't read this :

Quoting vc10 (Reply 109):
Yes we are different to the rest of Europe, as basically we have not been invaded for a 1000 years and so we have had a very long time to develope our own customs and ways of running our country rather than most areas of Europe which have been fought over , conquered , and had systems from out side imposed on them, where as here in the UK we were left to our own devices, whether good or bad.

and on the other side :

Quoting pu (Reply 114):
The German interest is 1. a market for German goods and 2. a more polite way to realise much of what two world wars failed to acheive: greater political force in Europe and around the world.

Some people still do have a very interesting concept of History and clichés of others.

That's very probably the main reason I have to be an European and hope my son becomes one, too.
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TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu May 12, 2016 10:37 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 172):
German exports free of tariffs and a German-controlled currency do not benefit everyone equally, most especially net importers

But no one forbids the other countries to offer better products. That is called competition.

Quoting SB744 (Reply 170):
It's not a common people any more than Africans or Asians are all the same

No, the relations are much closer, and share a much longer common history. The Religion is just one example, there are so many others.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 168):
By the way you know better than to mention football

Sorry, I could't resist  .
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri May 13, 2016 12:41 pm

Brilliant speech by MEP Daniel Hannan

I’m inviting you to make me redundant – and, into the bargain, make Nigel (Farage) redundant. And I wouldn’t be doing if I were not confident that there will be plenty of openings for newly-unemployed MEPs in the boom that would follow our exit from the European Union. Why do we tie ourselves to the one part of the world that is not experiencing significant economic growth? The eurozone, incredibly, was the same size at the end of last year as it was in 2006.

Every continent on this planet has grown over the past decade except Antartica and the European Union. We are a trading people. We dont sit on great natural resources here, we have to make our way by what we by and sell, that means we have to be where the customers are. And that means as long as we’re in the European Union, we cannot sign independent trade deals with non-EU countries.

The EU deal with Australia is being held up because some Italian tomato-growers are challenging it. The EU deal with Canada is being held up due to an unrelated dispute about Romanian visa. How have we put ourselves in a position where we can’t do those deals? Liz Kendall quotes some Davos men telling us that we can’t leave because we’d be worse off – but wages would rise, prices would fall. If we stay in, neither will happen.

It’s not just the financial price of EU membership – it’s the democratic price. We fought a civil war in this country to establish the principle that laws should not be passed nor taxes raised except by our own elected representatives. And now supreme power is held by people who tend to owe their positions to having just lost elections: Peter Mandelson, Neil Kinnock and what have you.

No one is talking about drawbridges or isolation. Nowhere else in the world do countries apologise for wanting to live under their own laws. New Zealand is not about to join Australia. Japan is not applying to join China – and do you hear anyone complaining about these bigoted Sino-sceptics in Tokyo? It is a natural healthy thing for a democracy to live under its own laws whilst trading with every other country in the world. The United Kingdom is the world’s fifth-largest country, its fourth-largest military power. How much bigger do we have to be before we have the confidence to raise our eyes to more distant horizons?
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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seahawk
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri May 13, 2016 12:47 pm

Wise words. The British islands have been free for a thousand years, they should protect this freedom. Get out of the EU as long as you can.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri May 13, 2016 2:02 pm

If reducing a World to trade is the only value you advocate I would say go and good bye.

But dont expect favourable conditions with such a small home market.

And why tie on the EU? Maybe because this is actually by far your biggest market?
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri May 13, 2016 2:53 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 183):
If reducing a World to trade is the only value you advocate I would say go and good bye.

  
I will be there waving goodbye, too.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 183):
But dont expect favourable conditions with such a small home market.

    

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 183):

And why tie on the EU? Maybe because this is actually by far your biggest market?

      
...and the biggest economic power for the moment.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 181):
We fought a civil war in this country to establish the principle that laws should not be passed nor taxes raised except by our own elected representatives.

The best example of double standards : The French didn't do anything else, did not want anything else, and suddenly they have the whole of the might of the European monarchies against them, including the Brits.
During that civil war of yours, I seem to remember that your kings took refuge in Paris..?
Contrail designer
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri May 13, 2016 3:40 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 184):
During that civil war of yours, I seem to remember that your kings took refuge in Paris..?

Charles I was tried and Executed, his son Charles II went into exile, maybe he didn't want to be imprisoned or worse killed, like his father?

Could be the same reason De Gaulle hot footed it to London on June 15th 1940. Leaving behind him, a devastated and humiliated France whose Vichy government had capitulated almost without a fight.

But you miss the point.

Constitutionally, the civil wars established the precedent that an English monarch cannot govern without Parliament's consent.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 14, 2016 9:29 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 185):
a devastated and humiliated France whose Vichy government had capitulated almost without a fight.

1/- There is another thread on British revisionism . Quite interesting.

2/- As far as I know - and remember - there was a British Expeditionary Force in France and Belgium in 1940, wasn't there ?
Just tell us about their gallant successes, apart from Dunkerque. They won medals by abandoning all their equipment for the nazis to use ? Ah! Yes, a hundred of them became the first victims of SS atrocities in Western Europe.

3/- Dunkerque : would it have been successful without the sacrifice of the French 1st Army and the troops - land and naval - who protected the escape ? That was nop bloody *miracle in "Dunkirk". Just some French troops doing their job.

4/- "without a fight, or almost" you say. Explain why the Germans lost in the France 1940 campaign 160 000 troops ( a figure very similar to their losses during the Normandy operation in1944 )... probably through kitchen accidents, yeah    ... the Luftwaffe lost 1 000 planes. (as Herr General Galland wrote in his book ).

5/- Explain the influence on the french operations by
A/- the Belgian surrender on the 28 April
B/- the withdrawal of the BEF instead of its re-inforcement,
both occurrences leaving the French toops 'situation even direr, having lost all of the *allied* entire left flank.

That the French - and British, and Belgian -generals were one war late and completely surprised and overwhelmed by the German tactics is a fact that's very hard to not acknowledge.
The courage of the troops cannot be questioned. They were beaten by superior forces, modern equipment, new battlefield tactics, new strategy doctrine.
Four years later, the tables were turned.

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 185):

Could be the same reason De Gaulle hot footed it to London on June 15th 1940.

No. De Gaulle was a fighter, as well as the greatest patriot one could think of.
He managed to get France back into the war, with the help of Mr Churchill and the British Foreign Office which never gave up on the Free French, even when the PM was more and more in US hands. We will never forget these years 1940 - 1943 .
Funny enough, that year '43 was when Britain gave up Euirope and, as the saying went, started sailing West. By then, de Gaulle had his GPRA and was directing France's war from North Africa.
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat May 14, 2016 10:29 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 181):
The United Kingdom is the world’s fifth-largest country, its fourth-largest military power. How much bigger do we have to be before we have the confidence to raise our eyes to more distant horizons?

Fifth largest country, that was funny.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
NAV30
Posts: 1080
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 3:57 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 186):
Funny enough, that year '43 was when Britain gave up Euirope

Sorry, Pihero,,absolute rubbish. I happened to be THERE. The British were at 'full stretch,' not just fighting (and defeating) the Luftwaffe attacks on Britain, but also developing a war-winning bombing campaign on Germany and beating Rommel in North Africa, while also taking on and defeating the Japanese in Malaya................

They 'followed up' in 1944 with the Normandy invasion. Three out of every five of the troops involved in the initial Normandy landings were British and Commonwealth. Only sensible, given that most of the Americans involved were on their first operation.

[Edited 2016-05-14 21:06:32]
 
AeroVega
Posts: 302
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 8:45 am

I think European citizens are better off without EU bureaucrats who get to decide their own salaries and benefits and are accountable only to rent seeking special interest groups. All at the expense of the same European citizens who see their incomes stagnate while their taxes increase every year.

For this reason, I hope the Brits vote the leave the EU and that this will lead to the end of the EU as we know it.
 
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Asturias
Posts: 1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 8:56 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 175):
To you perhaps. Many people understand nuance.

Nuance is not what led to this referendum.

Quoting AeroVega (Reply 189):
For this reason, I hope the Brits vote the leave the EU and that this will lead to the end of the EU as we know it.

Well, that might be overestimating the UK's importance to the EU as a concept.
Tonight we fly
 
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WildcatYXU
Posts: 3188
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 1:51 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 160):
Did they bomb anyone ?
Quoting Pihero (Reply 160):
Was there a war I haven't heard of ?

Well, considering that Europe as a continent ends at the Ural mountains, a war is going on in Europe even right now.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 161):
A good example on what nationalism has caused in Europe.

Absolutely. But nationalism by itself wouldn't be enough to create that mess. It was helped religion and by some idiotic decisions by the victors of WW2 and especially WW1. Countries were created as and where shouldn't be. Just as in the Middle East.

Quoting AeroVega (Reply 189):
For this reason, I hope the Brits vote the leave the EU and that this will lead to the end of the EU as we know it.

Well, if you really believe your country would be better off as a small country again and that your income will grow and taxes will drop once the EU is gone, all I can say: Good Luck!
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AeroVega
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 2:31 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 191):
Well, if you really believe your country would be better off as a small country again and that your income will grow and taxes will drop once the EU is gone, all I can say: Good Luck!

Yes, just like Switzerland, why not?

The Dutch people are the second biggest net contributor to the EU per capita (after Luxembourg), so of course taxes will fall for the Dutch if the Netherlands leaves the EU.

BTW, I'm all for a single European market and making it easier for European citizens to move freely within Europe. But that wasteful, undemocratic plutocracy called the EU needs to disappear.
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 6:00 pm

The Netherlands has many corporate headquarters that would be jeopardized if it left the EU, so I'm not sure your taxes would be lower.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
SB744
Posts: 25
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 8:15 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 184):
...and the biggest economic power for the moment.

The idea that it is the "biggest economic power" is a worthlessly abstract idea that allows you to beat your chest with misplaced pride and nothing more. The EU is not a country, and it never will be.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 173):
The UK has never wanted an EU military and is still against it.

God forbid!
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 9:07 pm

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 188):
absolute rubbish

I'm not talking about your usual *pomp and fireworks parades *, I'm just trying to put across the fact that 1943 was the year - culminating in Teheran in November - when Britain dissociated itself from all European interests in order to follow the US policies, to the point that they issued a *plan* for a reunion of European countries actually not far from the EEC ( but which they wouldn't be part of ).

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 188):
fighting (and defeating) the Luftwaffe attacks on Britain,

Bull. the bombings of Britain only stopped after September 1944 when the allies took control of the west coast of France and Belgium, preventing the use of the V1's.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 188):
a war-winning bombing campaign on Germany

A lot of historians dismiss the importance of strategic bombing on the conduct of any wars : as the nazis failed to subdue the Brits with the *Blitz*, the RAF /USAF failed to cow the civilian populations while the bonmbed factories had a very disturbingcapacity to rec over quickly... The result, IMHO, is that you lost the moral superiority over the Nazis by bombing civilians. ( the culmination of that madness being the destruction of Dresden ).

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 188):
taking on and defeating the Japanese in Malaya.

...in 1943 ? that was the time when they were still singing "Nelly the elephant" on the road to Mandalay ( that's in Burma, btw ). The only Brits who took on the Japanese in Malaya in 1943 were the POWs in Japanese camps... you're nearly two years short on the chronology of the war.

Quoting NAV30 (Reply 188):

They 'followed up' in 1944 with the Normandy invasion.

At least you seem to agree with me : Normandy was an invasion( definition which then considers that it was of an enemy territory), not the beginning of a liberation ( again per definition, of a friendly, allied, associated country ).
Contrail designer
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 9:13 pm

Quoting SB744 (Reply 194):
The idea that it is the "biggest economic power" is a worthlessly abstract idea that allows you to beat your chest with misplaced pride and nothing more.

As most international economic institutions recognise the EU as one entity, who am I to challenge the IMF, World Bank, CIA ( !)... etc...etc...
And, if I may ask, why should it bother you as you are leaving it ?
An abstract power that imposes a lot of its standards to the rest of the world ?.. you have to explain the paradox.
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Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 10:45 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 190):
Well, that might be overestimating the UK's importance to the EU as a concept.

That might well be true, but it might also be that the citizens of various counties start looking at how the UK is doing on their own and start changing their mind as to their own country staying in the EU.

The other potential would be to change the nature of the EU itself. Holding it to trade and free flowing of travel and other aspects that do not need a large group of politicians and eurocrats trying to take over their country. maybe that was what proper thought the EU was going to be at the start.
 
SB744
Posts: 25
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 15, 2016 11:16 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 196):
An abstract power that imposes a lot of its standards to the rest of the world ?

Thanks mate, you're always good for a chuckle.
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon May 16, 2016 1:39 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 197):
That might well be true, but it might also be that the citizens of various counties start looking at how the UK is doing on their own and start changing their mind as to their own country staying in the EU.

That's precisely why the UK won't receive any preferential treatment when negotiating trade deals with the EU. If the UK does better outside the EU, it will not be because they get the same things they got before without paying into it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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