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mham001
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:45 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 48):
Still waiting on those stats to back up your statement on people being kicked out of France BTW! Somehow I knew you would not come up with the goods

Don't worry, there's lots of that around here.

I am flummoxed about the idea of Obama preaching to the Brits about this. As if he has everything handled on his own shores. Such as NAFTA.
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:51 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 50):
I am flummoxed about the idea of Obama preaching to the Brits about this.

Well I usually have a lot of time for David Cameron but a lot of what Obama has said has been due to David asking him to I fear. Of course the USA would not turn its back on one of its closet allies. To do so would be detrimental to both parties. Of course what Obama says now will be mute by November anyway  
 
prebennorholm
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:23 pm

One funny thing about this Brexit: There are of course thousands of UK citizens living and working here in Denmark. Many have been here for 10, 15 , 20 years or even longer. All sorts of businessmen, doctors and God knows what. They never bothered to apply for Danish citizenship, why should they? They are "normal Danes" except they visit another web site for passport renewal.

Right now they are applying and getting Danish citizenship in droves. That removes any risk for them.

There are of course also thousands of Danes in Britain. I guess they do the same (or rather the opposite.   )
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:31 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 48):
Still waiting on those stats to back up your statement on people being kicked out of France BTW! Somehow I knew you would not come up with the goods

I never said people were being kicked out. If they have no job and can't collect benefits, they will leave. Exceptions being the Romas, they aren't kicked out but incentivized with money and a free ride home.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:36 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 52):
Right now they are applying and getting Danish citizenship in droves. That removes any risk for them.

Well I guess panic mode is setting in with some. Personally as a British Citizen living in Ireland I am not worried. Of course different relationship here anyway and even a UK out of the EU the agreements with the ROI is totally separate to any EU agreement and the CTA would remain and things like reciprocal healthcare and benefits etc.. would stay the same. I could apply for an Irish passport and am entitled to one but they want EUR1000 for the ''Admin'' costs so I think I will pass  
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:43 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
Clearly "never worked" is grounds for expulsion.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
As for the benefits, you don't get them if you don't work. In fact you can't stay in a foreign EU country if you don't have a job.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 53):
I never said people were being kicked out.

Sorry but which is it ? You cant stay in an EU country if you do not have a job according to you. So if you cant stay then who kicks you out? Grounds for expulsion means what? They are either getting kicked /expelled or they are not?
 
Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:29 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
Expulsion of millions of workers would indeed be hard to imagine.

Your key word is "worker". People with skills and experience working in the UK are not a burden on the UK Taxpayer and should have no problems staying if the UK leaves.

People who are considered a drag on the government budgets are better off leaving for a long term EU country before the exist is finalized.

Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
I just don't see the point of Brexit when you will still have EU citizens able to freely move and work in the UK,

The issue will probably be about the training, experience and need for various workers. That is a basically simple situation, especially in situations like when companies such as Airbus needs to move an engineer between the two areas.

Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
will no longer have any say in formulating these regulations.

Go back to the comment above noting the surplus Germany has in trade with the UK. Germany (as well as other countries) have a strong motivation to make a new reationshjip work, including help on formulating regulations that don't adversely impact the UK.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:55 pm

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 10):
As it stands EU law does not allow non-EU entities to manage mutual funds located within EU countries. These mutual funds account for 75% of collective investments within the EU and as much as 40% of the funds managed by the largest British fund managers.

It works so already. I am myself an example.

A couple years ago my company wanted to modernize the pension scheme. Due to mergers etc. it had become somewhat fragmented and complicated. We oldies, however, had to continue the old way. But the company wanted to outsource management of a few thousand clients and a few billion $$$. Until the last one of us oldies have died.

A couple dozen banks - many of the largest banks in Europe - applied, and one had to be selected. Half of them were British.

Due to rumors about a possible future referendum about a brexit all UK based banks were excluded in the first selection process.

So during the last 15 months I got my monthly pension from Paris, from a bank with a name I can't spell, much less pronounce.

There was a fifty % chance that my pension savings could have been financing British sheep farmers, but due to brexit rumors it became French wine farmers instead. Well, hardly so, but at least my money were diverted to the Paris stock market and excluded from any chance on the London market.

I think it could easily have been handled from Britain also after a brexit, But the management of my company knows exactly how eventual future disputes are handled within the EU, and a little less so in case it was outside EU. Why take any risk, even when it is extremely small, when it is totally unnecessary to take any risk.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 1:31 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 55):
Sorry but which is it ? You cant stay in an EU country if you do not have a job according to you. So if you cant stay then who kicks you out? Grounds for expulsion means what? They are either getting kicked /expelled or they are not?

It is both. They can be deported but they aren't (actually I looked and there aren't official statistics about it, so I'm guessing it's about 0).

My point is that EU law allows a country to deport EU citizens, and so if the UK isn't doing it, it has nothing to do with the EU. The UK being isolated from the continent and out of Schengen, making sure an EU citizen doesn't come back is possible, unlike for France, so France doesn't even try.

But in France while immigration is part of every political campaign, actual action on the matter is quite minimal, only about 15 000 people deported every year, against about 5 or 10 times more getting in illegally (and 200 000 legally). Furthermore, 30 000 illegal immigrants get papers every year !

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 56):
The issue will probably be about the training, experience and need for various workers. That is a basically simple situation, especially in situations like when companies such as Airbus needs to move an engineer between the two areas.

But it's not gonna work that way. Currently UK citizens can live and work in the EU, no questions asked. If the UK starts to want to choose, then the same rules will be applied the other way around. Or more likely, there will be no deal at all, because about 10 or 15 EU countries don't care about UK citizens coming and only care about their citizens working in the UK.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
StarAC17
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 2:03 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
Quoting richcandy (Reply 14):
If you ask most older Brits if they consider Americans, Canadians, New Zealanders, Australian's foreigners then I think the answer you will get would be no or no, not really.

Remove the American and I think you are correct. Americans are very much foreigners in the UK and not treated the same as people from the mentioned Commonwealth countries.

There was a change.org petition about a year or two ago that would allow freedom of movement between Canada, the UK, Australia and NZ because they are all commonwealth nations with very similar cultures and governments.

I would welcome that.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 22):
Then there was the issue of any EU person to come to the UK, take jobs away and get benefits. Those were the two main reasons why I can see voters wanting to leave.

Well people in the UK have the freedom to move to the European mainland and work.

I think the EU has done it right where they have freedom of trade and movement. With NAFTA and the TTP freedom of movement should be on the table with these deals so if my job gets sent to Mexico I have the right to move to Mexico and compete for it.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 23):
But wouldn’t it carry more weight in this particular instance if the United States had an open border with Mexico, a Supreme Court in Toronto and a budget set by an unelected pan-American committee?

That's how we feel, those people in Washington have too much control over us and we cannot create the laws we want.

Signed,

Texas   

Quoting victrola (Reply 31):
There a lot of multinationals that have operations in the UK precisely because it is an English speaking country with unfettered access to the European market. If the UK exits, I would invest heavily in real estate in Ireland.

One thing I do wonder though if the UK leaves is what happens with Scotland. They did vote to stay in the UK in their recent referendum but if the UK leaves the EU will they have another referendum because IIRC the Scots are pro EU.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 50):
I am flummoxed about the idea of Obama preaching to the Brits about this. As if he has everything handled on his own shores. Such as NAFTA.

He is negotiating an FTA with Europe and if the UK leaves he does lose a pretty big market that would presumably be included in the deal.

Furthermore he didn't preach, he was asked his opinion on it and he believes they should stay in the EU.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
mham001
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 3:08 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 51):
Of course the USA would not turn its back on one of its closet allies.

Recent history has told us otherwise. Obama confirmed it yesterday. "Back of the queue for you!"

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 59):
Furthermore he didn't preach,

You haven't read the British newspapers,
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 4:45 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 58):
so I'm guessing it's about 0).

Glad we clarified the porkie pies from the reality on the ground. One thing that muddies the waters in this referendum  
Quoting mham001 (Reply 60):
Recent history has told us otherwise. Obama confirmed it yesterday. "Back of the queue for you!"

The USA will go through a major change in November and ties will be reinforced with the UK and maybe some other relationships will be ''cooled''. Like they say better the devil you know   They cant afford to shun the UK as a tried and tested ally.
 
mham001
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sat Apr 23, 2016 5:34 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 61):
They cant afford to shun the UK as a tried and tested ally.

I agree, and his threat should have been more qualified. Brits will not react well to that. We need some adults running US foreign policy quickly.
 
rutankrd
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 11:07 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 46):
Totally missed the point AGAIN ! People should have freedom of choice to choose what power of appliance they want and need to buy. Will they ban all cars over 1.2L next ?

This is classic pro Brexit nonsense or deliberate ignoring the harmonised industrial standards.

In this case provided your motors are safe in use the standard does NOT determine how Mr Dyson makes his equipment in Malaysia !

The standards were written and formulated by the industry (As are all similar standards) through consultation and input - Dyson chose NOT to get involved -his problem and anyway the only thing that the standard determines is energy efficiency with a graded letter and colour indicator supplied so consumers can compare/make an informed choice.

Dyson high speed motors are not efficient as some others -But if Dyson's numbers are to believed other engineering elements compensate.

BTW whether in or out UK businesses WILL have to continue to comply with ALL relevant Harmonised standards as global trade demands .

DIN / BS and ANSI has some compatibility in ISO.
 
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par13del
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:02 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 42):
EU referendum: Jean-Claude Juncker says European Union is 'too meddlesome'Jean-Claude Juncker admits: 'We are interfering in too many domains of their private lives'

So did he come to that realization before or after the UK committed to a referendum, somehow I think it is after.

Personally, I hate the intimidation of fear in a modern society, where we claim to be logical thinkers able to sit a discuss all issues, today all we hear from both sides is fear of this fear of that, right now just based on that method of intimidation I hope the vote is to leave, cannot imagine what kind of relationship will exist at the people level when all they do is fear those in authority.
On the authority side, they would be happy as whatever they choose to do in the name of the people who fear them is fine and dandy.
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:08 pm

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 63):
Mr Dyson makes his equipment in Malaysia !
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 63):
But if Dyson's numbers are to believed other engineering elements compensate.

Would not have another Dyson if you gave me one for free. Piece of expensive rubbish.

Quoting par13del (Reply 64):
cannot imagine what kind of relationship will exist at the people level when all they do is fear those in authority.

Well that is true. When the Irish voted the wrong way   The government with pressure from Brussels made them vote again and warned them with bully tactics. When Ireland did not want a bailout they were told take it and do what we say otherwise we will make your nation go back to the 80's ! Nice .....
 
rutankrd
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:49 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 65):

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 63):
Mr Dyson makes his equipment in Malaysia !
Quoting rutankrd (Reply 63):
But if Dyson's numbers are to believed other engineering elements compensate.

Would not have another Dyson if you gave me one for free. Piece of expensive rubbish.

Agreed in so many ways !
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:11 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 64):
Personally, I hate the intimidation of fear in a modern society, where we claim to be logical thinkers able to sit a discuss all issues, today all we hear from both sides is fear of this fear of that, right now just based on that method of intimidation I hope the vote is to leave, cannot imagine what kind of relationship will exist at the people level when all they do is fear those in authority.
On the authority side, they would be happy as whatever they choose to do in the name of the people who fear them is fine and dandy.

The referendum also came about after intimidation from Tories, and Cameron went to the EU to "negociate or else", so this fear mongering is quite equally shared.

Now I'm also for a British exit, because I feel the EU will work much better without it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 1:27 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 67):
The referendum also came about after intimidation from Tories, and Cameron went to the EU to "negociate or else", so this fear mongering is quite equally shared.

Yes trying to change things that are genuine fears of many EU citizens including those in other more developed EU countries which their own citizens have issues with and yet they feel powerless is now called ''Intimidation'' wonderful club to be in  

I wonder if there were a referendum in all EU member states what the club would look like after. The non democratics seem to suggest holding a referendum is somehow treason.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 67):
Now I'm also for a British exit, because I feel the EU will work much better without it.

Yes of course it will....   You will all wake up ( or not as the case be ) and suddenly post a UK exit everything will be like Disneyland and everyone will be in utopia.
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:39 pm

Many EU citizens don't make a majority.

If you mean a single pan-EU referendum then I'm not against it.

I didn't talk about utopia, but at least the remaining countries will shoot more or less in the same direction.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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OA260
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun Apr 24, 2016 3:05 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 69):
but at least the remaining countries will shoot more or less in the same direction.

Yes of course like we saw recently when the fences started going up and the breaking down of Schengen.   The UK was not even part of that mess.
 
JJJ
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:34 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 44):
At some point, EU even wanted to ban a certain type of candy here as it resembles a pipe.

As if that were exclusive of the EU.

My wife is a graphic designer mostly working for wine companies. Finnish Alko veto'ed a design of a Christmas-themed wine gift-box because according to them it encouraged underage drinking.

That same box sold just fine on 20+ other countries (European and not)
 
victrola
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:18 pm

One thing about these single market situations is that you don't hear from the vast majority of people who benefit from the single market. The bulk of these people are not even aware that or how they benefit from a single European market so they probably have no strong views on the Brexit or are easily influenced by the pro Brexit crowd. It is basic human nature that we take for granted or ignore the benefits that we have always had. Meanwhile the minority of people who have obviously lost because of the single market are angry, concentrated, easy to organize, and visible.

Imagine an alternate Europe where every 150 kilometers or so trucks have to stop for customs inspections, where extensive documentation has to be filled out and goods then have to be offloaded onto different trucks as they move across borders. Imagine a Europe where every country staunchly protects its national airline so that there is no real competition and no need for efficiency. Air fares would skyrocket and taxpayers would be subsidizing these airlines who would have no incentive whatsoever to be efficient. Imagine that instead of 1 European CE standard you have 27 or so different product standards so that a manufacturer has to comply with 27 sets of standards and thus is unable to to get the efficiency of economies scale. Imagine a Europe where every country pays massive subsidies to their farmers and erects enormous barriers to keep out agricultural products from its neighbors. Such a Europe would be a much poorer place that the Europe of today.
 
aloges
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:25 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 72):
Such a Europe would be a much poorer place that the Europe of today.

And then, the real fun would start: war. I hope I'm dead before it happens, really don't fancy being roped in to "go kill some Frenchies" like my granddads were.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Klaus
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:47 pm

Quoting victrola (Reply 72):
Imagine an alternate Europe where every 150 kilometers or so trucks have to stop for customs inspections, where extensive documentation has to be filled out and goods then have to be offloaded onto different trucks as they move across borders. Imagine a Europe where every country staunchly protects its national airline so that there is no real competition and no need for efficiency. Air fares would skyrocket and taxpayers would be subsidizing these airlines who would have no incentive whatsoever to be efficient. Imagine that instead of 1 European CE standard you have 27 or so different product standards so that a manufacturer has to comply with 27 sets of standards and thus is unable to to get the efficiency of economies scale. Imagine a Europe where every country pays massive subsidies to their farmers and erects enormous barriers to keep out agricultural products from its neighbors. Such a Europe would be a much poorer place that the Europe of today.

I don't have to imagine it – I just remember.

Too well to want to be anywhere near that again, to be exact.

Not even counting the practically nonexistent international weight European countries had back then.

I keep being amazed by the hilarious caricature of the European union that's being sold to a bizarrely gullible british public – it's eerily reminiscent of popular 19th- and 20th-century imaginations about "foreign countries", combined with a near-total absence of realistic views or actual knowledge about it. It almost never rises above selectively hand-picked anecdotes.

Sure, crazy stuff like that isn't entirely exclusive to the UK, but the lack of realism there has reached a level that maybe the rude awakening following a "brexit" might actually be necessary.

And an end to the so far interminable string of island tantrums would be a relief for everybody else.

I'm pretty much done by now appealing to reason. Let them go – to find out what reality actually is like on their own.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:41 am

Time to look at a great British past-time: "Euro-mything".

If you're a regular reader of the British tabloids, you'll know that almost every week a story will emerge about a ridiculous initiative the EU has come up with.

But how many of these "crazy EU directives" are actually real?

Banana's should not be too bendy. Yes introduced in 1995 but repealed in 2008

Waters does not hydrate you. True The EU now prohibits manufacturers of bottled drinking water to label their product with anything that would suggest consumption would fight dehydration.

Popular British snack "Bombay Mix" had to change its name to "Mumbai Mix". False - Completely made up

Prunes are not laxatives. The EU reportedly made it illegal for prunes to be marketed as a food that helps bowel movements.

Having investigated the effects of the food on three subject, the EU concluded: "The evidence provided is insufficient to establish a cause and effect relationship between the consumption of dried plums of 'prune' cultivars (Prunus domestica L.) and maintenance of normal bowel function."

Turnips cannot be labeled "swedes", except in one place. True - Cornwall, thanks to the traditional Cornish Pasty

Diabetics are banned from driving. True - But not currently being enforced.

Eggs cannot be sold by the dozen. True - In 2010 the EU said that food items could no longer be priced by the number (i.e. a dozen eggs or ten apples) and instead had to be priced based on weight.

Though it's still possible to buy six of 12 eggs at a time, the price paid is based on the weight of those eggs.

European sports teams have to have the European flag on their uniforms. False - Headline in the Daily mail but strongly denied and not up for discussion in the EU.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:51 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):
Such agreements work both ways, so you're saying that the UK might leave the EU over something that will not change after the exit.

Yes that's exactly what I think will happen, I see the relationship the UK with have with the EU after Brexit being the same as the one Norway and Switzerland have.

Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
I just don't see the point of Brexit when you will still have EU citizens able to freely move and work in the UK, when the UK will still have to comply with European regulations if it wants to sell to Europe, and will no longer have any say in formulating these regulations.

My thoughts as well.

Quoting victrola (Reply 43):
I would also expect another Scottish referendum as they seem to be interested in staying in Europe.

Even the couple of hardcore Scottish nationalists I work with have given up the idea of another referendum for a few decades or more, they don't see Brexit as a reason for another one which they will likely loose. Besides there are plenty of Scottish people who have the same dislike of excess immigrants as the rest of the UK, it's a nationwide issue not just confined to England.

As an example during my last business trip to Edinburgh the only UK people I spoke with the the people in the company I was visiting, half of them were english. Everyone else I spoke with was foreign, from the taxi drivers to hotel and resturant staff.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 56):
People who are considered a drag on the government budgets are better off leaving for a long term EU country before the exist is finalized.

I doubt they will leave.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 59):
There was a change.org petition about a year or two ago that would allow freedom of movement between Canada, the UK, Australia and NZ because they are all commonwealth nations with very similar cultures and governments.

I signed this one. As a Kiwi who in the last year of so has been to the UK many times I find it really frustrating that we no longer have the rights an privilages we used to have, it's now a lot harder for a young Kiwi to have an O.E. (overseas experience) in the UK than it was when I did my stint in the late 90's. When I arrived in 1996 there were nearly 100,000 kiwis under 30 in the UK, now it's about 27,000, there have also been similar drops in the numbers of Australians, South Africans and Canadians.
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:56 am

I find it hard to understand why people always state as one of the arguments against leaving the EU is " you will have to still comply with our rules and you will not have any say in them" Well right or wrong many people in the UK do not believe we have much of a say in them now, but putting that to one side well yes we will have to comply with European rules on goods we export to the EU the same way as we have to comply with the rules in the USA or India or China etc when we export goods to those countries.

Similarly EU products have to comply with UK rules if they want to export to us as they do now BMW--- VW ---Renault etc all supply cars to the UK with Right Hand drive and the speed is given in MPH.

The biggest barrier in trade with the UK in the past might have been the cross channel ferries but the roll on roll off ferries have improved that, well they have when the French Unions do not try to stop them.. Lorries coming to the UK from say Poland would have their free access across Europe and only be checked at the Channel , which is not much different to today

Slowly over the past 50 years the UK has been converting it's weight and measures to the metric system with the llast bastion of the system being the retention of miles for road signs. Now was this because we joined the EU well no but rather than the rest of the world was changing to the metric system.

An argument often used for staying in the EU is there is no import duties when we export to the EU , well Ford Built the Transit van at Eastleigh near Southampton for the last 40 years or so, but 2 years ago decided to close the factory and relocate it to perhaps another EU country but no they take it to Turkey !!!!! BMW assemble the Mini in Swindon, but as far as I know the engines are built in Brazil.

One of the most stupid argument in favour of the Euro is when people from Europe say they like aa they can go from one country to another for their holidays without changing their money, and then they went to Turkey, Egypt , Morocco etc and were quite happy to change their money.

Now there are arguments for staying or leaving the EU but the deciding factor will be immigration. Nothing wrong with immigration that is controlled to suit the needs of the host country and sometimes the donor country, but the uncontrolled immigration from Europe that the UK has had to cope with in say the last say 10 years is unsustainable

Anyway enough for now litlevc10
 
BestWestern
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 1:58 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 6):
a crypto-communist wasteland.
Quoting vc10 (Reply 77):
Nothing wrong with immigration that is controlled to suit the needs of the host country and sometimes the donor country, but the uncontrolled immigration from Europe that the UK has had to cope with in say the last say 10 years is unsustainable

So what happens to all the immigrants already in the UK?
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:25 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 28):
Just out of idle curiosity, which unelected pan-European committee sets the UK's budget?

I'm quite sure he was referring to the EU budget. I still think it was a good point that he made. Let's face it, Obama is only interested in the UK being in the EU because that's what's in America's best interest. He couldn't care less what's in the UK's best interest.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:35 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 75):
Time to look at a great British past-time: "Euro-mything".

Some of these regulations I agree with, some are ridiculous, most are a product of lobbyists. More importantly, every individual country has or used to have plenty of the same ridiculous rules. Again, 3 wheeled cars in the UK. In fact plenty of UK sports cars (that I like) are only road legal in the UK, because they don't comply with any modern safety regulation.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:58 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
Again, 3 wheeled cars in the UK.

A couple of times you have mentioned Reliant Robins, lovingly called the plastic pig,the three-wheeled car qualified as a motorcycle, meaning it could be driven without a full licence. Even though it's a four-seater with a four-cylinder engine, it still had to weigh less than eight hundredweight (about 400kg).


It was cheap to run (about 80mpg), license and insure. Hugely popular, it was on the market until 1981, returning from 1989 to 2001.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
Elite
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed Apr 27, 2016 9:21 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 78):
So what happens to all the immigrants already in the UK?

From my understanding, immigrants (I assume EU citizens settled there) can either become British citizens, or wait and see what happens to the treatment of EU citizens within the UK, as that will be negotiated in the two-year period.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:34 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 77):
I find it hard to understand why people always state as one of the arguments against leaving the EU is " you will have to still comply with our rules and you will not have any say in them" Well right or wrong many people in the UK do not believe we have much of a say in them now, but putting that to one side well yes we will have to comply with European rules on goods we export to the EU the same way as we have to comply with the rules in the USA or India or China etc when we export goods to those countries.

Look at Norway and Switzerland, you really think the UK will have it any better?

Quoting vc10 (Reply 77):
BMW assemble the Mini in Swindon, but as far as I know the engines are built in Brazil.

That was the Prince engine, which was built in partnership with Chrysler, the current MINI engines are built in Hams Hall.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
In fact plenty of UK sports cars (that I like) are only road legal in the UK, because they don't comply with any modern safety regulation.

Which ones? Radicals, Caterhams and Morgans are road legal in Europe.
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed Apr 27, 2016 12:05 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 80):
Again, 3 wheeled cars in the UK. In fact plenty of UK sports cars (that I like) are only road legal in the UK, because they don't comply with any modern safety regulation.

And this is from a man whose country produced the 2CV so does that meet modern day EU safety regulations or do those fantastic ??? cars from the German car industry such as the Heinkal or BMW Isetta. I have to say I owned a Iseeta in the early 1960s, and I like to tell people that my first car when i was an apprentice was a BMW

littlevc10
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:50 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 83):
Radicals, Caterhams and Morgans are road legal in Europe.

Radical is a special case as they didn't make road cars at first, even in the UK. Then they added a package making them road legal in the UK only.

Some models are road legal in the EU, same for Caterham, but you can't just buy any one, even if road legal in the UK, and expect it to be legal in the EU.

Another manufacturer in the same case is TVR, then there is Ultima. The Lotus 2-11 and 3-11 aren't road legal either.

In fact it's quite annoying to follow car news because when new UK models from small manufacturers come out it's often mentioned that there will be a track version and a road version, French "journalists" translate it as is, but in practice, such cars won't be homologated for the EU.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ken777
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:24 am

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 75):
But how many of these "crazy EU directives" are actually real?

I had to smile at some of those. Nice to know the EU has as many goofy people as the US. (But without as many guns.)

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 83):
you really think the UK will have it any better?

I think the UK will continue to be a desirable market for the EU and some special relationships will be negotiated to keep that market attractive.
 
offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu Apr 28, 2016 9:48 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 85):
In fact it's quite annoying to follow car news because when new UK models from small manufacturers come out it's often mentioned that there will be a track version and a road version, French "journalists" translate it as is, but in practice, such cars won't be homologated for the EU.

This isn't a very big deal. As far as I know, although I can only say for sure about the UK and Portugal, I think all EU countries allow for individual vehicle homologations. I can import a 1980 Pontiac TransAm here (Portugal) from the USA tomorrow. After plenty of paperwork and a couple of inspections, and possible modifications such as installing orange indicators rather than red, a fog light and maybe on or two other things, the IMT will assign an individual homologation number and then off you go to the next stage of import eg Customs to pay the import tax etc.

Moving back to the original discussion, what I asked earlier has been ignored so far, so I'll ask it again of the pro-EU / Remain camp of Brits on here. My earlier point was about where the EU is going. I want to ask these guys if they are happy that Ukraine, Turkey, the rest of the ex-Yugo countries, 150+ million people etc are allowed in to the EU, and please let's not pretend this won't happen. 1973 EEC - 6 Countries. 2016 - EU 28 countries. As usual, no-one knows how many will head to the UK, but it could easily be 3 - 5 million. Where you live in the UK, can your local area handle this influx? Hospitals? Schools? Doctor's surgeries? Social services? Transport? Guys, I want to hear from you on this. Or I'll put the same question out there to non-Brits. Anyone, anyone... Bueller?
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
JJJ
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:09 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 87):
EU 28 countries. As usual, no-one knows how many will head to the UK, but it could easily be 3 - 5 million. Where you live in the UK, can your local area handle this influx? Hospitals? Schools? Doctor's surgeries? Social services? Transport? Guys, I want to hear from you on this. Or I'll put the same question out there to non-Brits.

I don't know. The almost million Brits living in the Costas (a lot of them elderly and obviously needing a higher level of health care) you might want to talk (since you're in the Algarve you perfectly know what I mean)

They even had to put translators in certain hospitals because a lot of them won't even bother to learn the local language.

And yes, the UK pays for the 300K or so that are registered Spanish residents, not the 500K that don't bother to do it. Talk about a strain.

This is a few years old, but the situation is still very similar.

http://www.theguardian.com/travel/2006/jul/09/travelnews.spain

Which finally led to stuff like this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...s-expats-returning-from-Spain.html

[Edited 2016-04-28 03:18:04]
 
offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu Apr 28, 2016 11:32 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 88):

Interesting stuff JJJ.

Firstly on the language issue it's very different between Spain and Portugal. Huge amounts of Portuguese speak English these days, which is one of the big changes I've noticed in my 20 years here. Even if they aren't to fond of the Brits, they know there's a good chance of the Swede, the Dutchman, the Russian etc speaking English as a second language. In the the Algarve, you'd be hard pressed to find a medical facility (state or private) that didn't have a significant number of English speakers. That said, I have sympathy for the Spanish position on this. It is in no way Spain's job to provide translators. Good luck finding someone to speak Spanish to you in your doctor's surgery in Southampton too.

I read an article a while back, which I'm trying to find, that actually said that some local hospitals were grateful for the money that came back into the hospital via the UK Govt, as it was a way to keep the hospital afloat in grave economic times.

Those are some amazing numbers you speak off.

They way I read it, you've got the following people:
Cat A: People like me, Brits, but work and pay tax and social security here/Spain in the same way as nationals do. The UK govt has absolutely nothing to do with this category. We're the ones that put into the system.
Cat B: Pensioners, declared resident, of legal pensionable age, that get there treatment refunded by the UK Govt under reciprocal agreements.
Cat C: Everyone else in the middle. Now lots of these will have private medical insurance so it doesn't matter. It's the "others" that seem to be the problem. These are the "others" working the bars for cash, odd job men, painters, poolmen, the early retirees that can't afford private coverage so don't have it, and a myriad of others under the radar that don't want to contribute to pay tax or social but are happy enough to pop off to the local hospital when they're ill. Half of them probably drive a UK reg car that hasn't seen a legal Mot/ITV for a decade either. Yes, we've got our fair share of them here too.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:07 pm

Now I know it is attractive to compare Norway and Switzerland arrangements with the agreement the UK would get with the EU if we left, but I do not think it is comparing like for like. I am sure someone will prove me wrong though.

Norway GDP --512 billion Euros Switzerland GDP--- 685 billion Euros

UK GDP----2,678 billion Euros


Number of EU manufactured cars imported annually

Norway-----125000

UK [2013] ----587,000


but if you include Ford [188,000]
and Vauxhall [111,000] not including the 39000 UK built Astra ]


Then the UK imports of Cars from the EU amounts to some 886,000 cars

German produced cars exported to UK ---- 333,000
French produced cars exported to UK-----133,000
Spanish " " " " " ----- 25,000
Italian " " " " " ------ 34,000

And the above figures do not included Ford or Vauxhall produced cars . Now I do realize that the UK exports cars to the EU too and so any tariffs put on UK car exports to the EU would i am sure be met with similar tariffs on cars produced in the EU. So it would not be in anybody's interest to start a tariff war

So you can see the UK market is much much bigger than either Norway or Switzerland or probably both put together

littlevc10
 
prebennorholm
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:06 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 90):

Dear vc10, I really wonder what you are trying to tell us.

In case of Brexit, then it is purely up to the UK government to choose an import customs duty on UK car imports from EU27, zero %, ten %, fifty %, or whatever they like. It has nothing with EU27 to do.

And likewise EU27 can do the same with any imports FROM the UK.

Unless the UK happens to join the EEA together with Iceland and Norway. Then EEA rules apply. (Switzerland is not an EEA member, but have various bilateral agreements with the EU providing many of the same facilities).

Could you please explain what you want to tell us? What makes the UK anything special? You make it seem like UK citizens after Brexit will quit driving cars and ride horses instead.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:40 am

It has been written in the French constitution (in 2005) that any new EU member would have to be approved by the French people, by referendum. Needless to say that Turkey is never going to be approved. I doubt any country could be approved right now, not even an independant Scotland, people will just vote no, whatever the question.

As for the power to negotiate a good deal for the UK outside the EU, it isn't just about the economic position of each party, it's also about the fate of the EU itself. If the UK gets a "good deal" then 2, 3, 5 other members will ask the same. Better to lose a chunk of commerce with the UK than to lose any other member.

If the Brexit camp wins, do you think Cameron will resign ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 7:52 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 85):
Then they added a package making them road legal in the UK only.

I've seen a German registered Radical in Denmark.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 85):
but you can't just buy any one, even if road legal in the UK, and expect it to be legal in the EU.

See above.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 85):
The Lotus 2-11 and 3-11 aren't road legal either.

There are two version of the 3-11, road legal and track only, the 3-11 is the untimate expression of the Elise, which is also road legal.

Where I live is close to the Atlantic Highway, for as long as I've been living here the Caterham and Morgan car clubs with members from all over Europe come up here to drive the roads around here.

The EU have low volume type approval rules which allows models to be registered if muilt in limited numbers.

Quote:
European Community Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA)

EC Whole Vehicle Type Approval (ECWVTA) is based around EC Directives and provides for the approval of whole vehicles, in addition to vehicle systems and separate components. This certification is accepted throughout the EU without the need for further testing until a standard is updated or your design changes.

Low volume/Small Series Manufacturers

Full EC whole vehicle type approval (ECWVTA) won't suit everyone, particularly those manufacturing vehicles in low numbers. In recognition of this fact there are a number of other approval routes available, including:

European Community Small Series Type Approval (EC SSTA)

EC Small Series Type Approval) has been created for low volume car producers only, and like full ECWVTA will allow Europe wide sales but with technical and administrative requirements that are more adapted to smaller businesses.
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 8:42 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 91):
Dear vc10, I really wonder what you are trying to tell us.

I was trying to say that the UK is a large market for the other EU countries and should the UK leave ,and should the EU apply import duties to UK products then I am sure the UK would respond similarly, and many companies on both sides could be adversely affected . So perhaps a new arrangement will have to be considered.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 92):
As for the power to negotiate a good deal for the UK outside the EU, it isn't just about the economic position of each party, it's also about the fate of the EU itself. If the UK gets a "good deal" then 2, 3, 5 other members will ask the same. Better to lose a chunk of commerce with the UK than to lose any other member.

However for the reasons given by Aesma above this will be difficult but not impossible. I was trying to show also that the UK is a much bigger market than Norway , Iceland and Switzerland put together and so might have more influence in the negotiations . We are not special just a big market within Europe and likewise the EU is a big market for British car production taking some 57 % of our car production last year .

No i do not expect the UK to revert to Horse and Cart as we do have a car assembly industry , which even if reduced by EU departure could easily meet the demand of the UK market .

littlevc10
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 9:33 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 92):
French people, by referendum.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/030ea098-f...f5-070dca6d0a0d.html#axzz47Cpxdbfe

The EU is used to referendums. In Ireland and Denmark, when the answer was No, governments tended to call a second referendum after symbolic deal making in Brussels back rooms. French and Dutch No votes in 2005 on the constitutional treaty were essentially ignored; the document resurfaced two years later as the Treaty of Lisbon.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:42 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 92):
If the Brexit camp wins, do you think Cameron will resign ?

No. A few months ago he made it clear that he intended to stay regardless of the result. Whether or not his position would be tenable or not is another question, but I think the last thing the Tories would want after an out vote would be a leadership battle.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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Aesma
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:59 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 95):
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/030ea098-f...f5-070dca6d0a0d.html#axzz47Cpxdbfe

The EU is used to referendums. In Ireland and Denmark, when the answer was No, governments tended to call a second referendum after symbolic deal making in Brussels back rooms. French and Dutch No votes in 2005 on the constitutional treaty were essentially ignored; the document resurfaced two years later as the Treaty of Lisbon.

I don't know for the Netherlands but in France the 2005 referendum wasn't mandated by the constitution, it was just a political ploy by president Chirac that backfired on him (like most of his actions). It still killed the EU constitution (a shame) and led to the Treaty of Lisbon. I agree with you that this was not done in a democratic way, but people weren't that opposed to it or it wouldn't have happened.

There is no way to make another treaty in the case of a new member being accepted in the EU, and people in France are less and less for Turkey joining, not helped by the fact it's becoming an islamist dictatorship. It's simple, opinion polls aren't even ordered on the matter anymore, no need when the result might be 5% for 95% against.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Fri Apr 29, 2016 4:42 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 97):
Treaty of Lisbon.

The Treaty of Lisbon - A catalogue of amendments.


From what I can gather, The only differences between the original EU Constitution and "The Treaty of Lisbon" are:-

1. Constitution" and the adjective "constitutional" have been banished from the text

2. Mention of the symbols of the EU have been suppressed, including the flag (which already flies everywhere), and the European anthem (Beethoven's Ode to Joy).

3. The expression "free and undistorted competition" has been taken out at the request of President Sarkozy (possibly to protect as the French call them "National Champions"?

4. It reappears at the request of the British, in an annexed protocol to the new treaty which stipulates that "the internal market, such as is defined in Article 3 of the treaty, includes a system guaranteeing that competition is undistorted".

5. The proposals in the original constitutional treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through old treaties in the form of amendments. This subtle change above all, is to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary.


The Brussels institutions have also cleverly reclaimed the process from the national governments to the institutions to take away any unwelcome intrusion of parliamentarians and politicians.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
B777LRF
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK

Sun May 01, 2016 10:22 am

Gentlepeeps, I give you Denmark's contribution to the motoring world:

http://i65.tinypic.com/i5ozv9.jpg

By companions, the Robin is a Merc S-class!
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