Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Scorpio
Posts: 5055
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 48):
obsession
/əbˈsɛʃən/
noun
1.
(psychiatry) a persistent idea or impulse that continually forces its way into consciousness, often associated with anxiety and mental illness
2.
a persistent preoccupation, idea, or feeling

So you're saying the few people obsessed with their guns here have a mental illness? Because that's the only 'obsession' I see here: people so obsessed with their guns that they can't even bring themselves to admit that there's objectively a serious gun crime problem in the US.

That is an interesting observation from you of all people I must say!

[Edited 2016-04-24 12:48:13]
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2929
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:47 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
They are envious of the freedoms we have in the United States and therefore condemn it

You are not free, you still have to follow laws, and the laws are not fundamentally different. Besides being able to own guns you have no meaningful freedoms that other countries don't.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
Spreading freedom isn't a bad thing

Spreading 'freedom' to the Middle East turned out well... one of the contributing factors to IS' existence.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
Meanwhile in Paris

A one-off event, and in any case France's homicide rate from guns is still 5 times lower than the USA

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
Funny we don't ban cars when somebody gets killed by a drunk driver. And many more people die in car wrecks a year....exponentially more.

Why would you ban cars? How about actually defending guns rather than saying 'well people die other ways'?
Very few people are advocating a gun ban. Because guns are not banned in other countries. You can have a gun in other developed countries besides Japan, where I think it's practically illegal.

Also cars have a payoff, guns... less so. But since every effort is made to make cars safer, they're a step above guns, where nothing is done.
 
mham001
Posts: 5745
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:38 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 49):
But please don't draw conclusions about others from your own obsessions.

Oh, but it is quite clear, your obsession is to criticize anything and everything you can about the US. Guns is only one of several issues you and a few others here constantly bring up. Anything that casts a negative light on the US, you are there.

When was the last time you said anything positive about the country you spend all this time talking about? Lots of negative energy in your psyche, directed this way. You don't find Americans doing this in EU threads, what's up with that?
 
Toni_
Posts: 276
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:56 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:41 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
The playdown, so to speak, is because in the big picture, it is not the problem made out to be by some. 12,500 deaths, most of which happen in areas most won't go, is a drop in the bucket. Gun deaths rank low in the big picture, #19 among whites, #20 among Asians and #8 among blacks and ranks far below other preventable deaths, such as suicide, smoking, drinking, car accidents, etc.

I understand what your saying, but wouldn't you agree with me, that even by crossing out the suicides and crime related deaths in rougher areas, you still end up with numbers of gun related victims that are way too high for a first world country?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):

The problem has been acknowledged. Mental health restrictions have have tightened around the country. And yes, these shootings are a problem but once again, they already have been in decline for quite some time. Except for one small demographic. The mass shootings are probably most spurred by the instant and intense media coverage we have now. How we stop that trend needs to worked out, but trying to take all the guns is not going happen.

The spotlight has to be on the stats that show the innocent and preventable deaths. By playing it down and looking at the big picture you only make it harder to address a serious problem. Instant and intense media coverage can only help in my opinion. "Stopping that trend" will only sugar coat the matter. That's the last thing you want when dealing with lives of human beings.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
They are envious of the freedoms we have in the United States and therefore condemn it.

The US doesn't own copyright on freedom. There's millions, if not billions, of people on this planet that experience freedom on a daily basis. What you have in the United States are laws and choices of life that are unique for your country. Those laws and choices don't necessarily guarantee freedom.

And personally it really saddens me to see so many American lives wasted by bullets. Nobody is pointing and laughing at the US whenever these stories come out. In fact, what most of us foreigners would like to see in the US, is a truly free country where citizens can live in freedom. Because, concerning the freedom relating to this topic, if you only feel safe when carrying a gun, is that really living in freedom? Aren't you emprisoning yourself by putting a condition on freedom? Shouldn't freedom be felt unconditionally? And isn't that living in conditional freedom exactly what the terrorists want?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
Sorry but a website by an anti-gun group is lot a legitimate statistical source.

Are you saying that they're just making stuff up? And since every shooting is provided with a link to a news article about the event, you're saying that that link is fake too?
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13758
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Sun Apr 24, 2016 8:59 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 44):


It's a mental illness for them. They are envious of the freedoms we have in the United States and therefore condemn it.


What freedoms do you have that anyone else in a first world country doesn't, remember the patriot act changed a lot for you guys.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
Just about three weeks ago we had a bystander shoot a meth dealer who was running from police and tried to force entry to his house

Not the same at all.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Sun Apr 24, 2016 10:19 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 52):
Oh, but it is quite clear, your obsession is to criticize anything and everything you can about the US. Guns is only one of several issues you and a few others here constantly bring up. Anything that casts a negative light on the US, you are there.

You should really take a look at my posting history before you make claims like that. You're so far off the mark you've crossed from disturbing into hilarious. By the way, whatever I may say about certain aspects of the USA is not directed at the country as a whole. Can you see how that works?

Quoting mham001 (Reply 52):
When was the last time you said anything positive about the country you spend all this time talking about?

I'll give you one many better: My latest attempt to help save the life of someone in the US was on 6 April. I'm pretty sure that out of the dozens that I've made, at least a few concerned US citizens. But do keep telling me about my supposed anti-Americanism, so far it's been highly entertaining.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 52):
Lots of negative energy in your psyche, directed this way.

What else do you know about my psyche that I don't?    Am I perhaps afraid of frogs, underpasses, cockroaches or Kardashians? What about olives, ferries and fairies? Oh, and while I'm at it, why did the fairy cross the Mersey?   

Quoting mham001 (Reply 52):
You don't find Americans doing this in EU threads, what's up with that?

Could it be a lack of interest? Might it be that not too many of them understand Catalan, Finnish or German well enough to discuss issues from this side of the pond? It's a mystery...
 
Flaps
Posts: 1743
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2000 1:11 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:23 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 6):
Oh, and we're concerned for our safety while in the US.

Then don't come here. I don't travel to places where I don't feel safe. Nor do I run around bitching about the laws and customs of other countries. I respect the laws and customs of other countries regardless of my opinions on them. In your country I respect your rights to make laws and customs that suite the needs and desires of your people. I've never understood the passion of many Europeans when it comes to American laws and customs as they apply in the United States. We could care less what you do in your own countries. Why doesn't that seem to apply in reverse?

Enlighten me please.
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:41 am

Well for shit's sake let's just shut down all discussion forums then.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2929
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:45 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 56):
Nor do I run around bitching about the laws and customs of other countries. I respect the laws and customs of other countries regardless of my opinions on them. In your country I respect your rights to make laws and customs that suite the needs and desires of your people.

In our countries, we have the right to free speech, and can criticise laws when we want to.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 56):
I've never understood the passion of many Europeans when it comes to American laws and customs as they apply in the United States.

Some of us just enjoy the debate. If anything, watching Americans shoot each other up gives us some great perspective on how lucky we are, and watching people defend their right to guns is great satire.

Quoting Flaps (Reply 56):
We could care less what you do in your own countries.

Not entirely true, what happens in other countries is usually of great interest to people in the USA, just see the Brexit forum!

Also: I assume you mean 'We couldn't care less', because if you could care less then it means you still care somewhat.  
Quoting Flaps (Reply 56):
Why doesn't that seem to apply in reverse?

It can do, you don't speak for all Americans.
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
Posts: 3458
Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 12:54 am

Quoting Flaps (Reply 56):
Nor do I run around bitching about the laws and customs of other countries.

Really ?

America.... your Government criticises other countries all the time, even to the point where they will even invade them to prove a point !

Quoting Flaps (Reply 56):
Enlighten me please.

I just have.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:13 am

So if you have been watching the latest news on this but it turns out to family has at least three commercial majuanja grow operations in working.

All signs point to a professional hit, most likely in connection with their illegal activities.

Banning the right to own guns would not have stopped these professional killings.

In the big picture it was their pot that killed them.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:23 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 34):
Have there ever been any good Samaritans with guns ready to help end a shooting?

All the time. Thing is, because the shooting is stopped before it turns into a massacre, it lacks media coverage. "Guy with gun shoots guy with gun," doesn't make headlines.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 36):
How can you be angry that someone didn't do something that the police should be doing, not someone who may be untrained and inexperienced.

I'd be angry that there wasn't someone trained and experienced with handling firearms nearby, as the police can't be everywhere at once. Private citizens, trained in firearms handling, can be in far more places and able to intervene when things go sideways.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 36):
I make the assumption that every human being is untrustworthy unless proven otherwise.

It must be terrible to live in your world.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 36):
Mass killings with knives are much rarer, and even if you were a psychopath it might not happen, you'd have to have proficient knife combat skills

Mass killings with knives happen with more frequency than you'd probably care to admit. And as far as proficiency with a knife goes, combat skills are only needed when engaging someone else with weapons. A knife-wielding nutjob with zero training can do a lot of damage in a split second.

Quoting diverted (Reply 37):
I like to bring up Ronald Reagan's shooting. He had TONS of Secret Service with guns, and they didn't stop him getting shot....

I don't know why you "like" to bring it up, as it proves nothing. They stopped the threat the moment it presented itself, some of them by jumping in the path of the bullet, which is part of their job.

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 40):
You can throw stats out all day long...

Curious that you chose to omit the number of firearm deaths caused by suicide or as part of gang or drug-related criminal activity. Could it be that those numbers would make your stats look awfully weak?
 
coolian2
Posts: 2483
Joined: Sun Oct 22, 2006 3:34 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:44 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
it turns out to family has at least three commercial majuanja grow operations in working

I thought you guys spoke English in the USA
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2929
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:51 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
I'd be angry that there wasn't someone trained and experienced with handling firearms nearby, as the police can't be everywhere at once.

So your population has to be part of a guerilla force even though they get no training, no pay and no organisation? You're not even giving people training, so why don't you even do something like that that makes full use of your 2nd amendment rights? You'll still be shooting each other up and the homicide rate won't change much, but still.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
Private citizens, trained in firearms handling, can be in far more places and able to intervene when things go sideways.

Here's a strange concept for you: we don't need to be members of the Viet Cong equivalent because we don't get mass shooters all that often. The fact that the USA has more mass shootings than days in a year and that EU countries, Canada, Japan Australia and other developed countries all have a lower rate of gun deaths is a very strong hint as to what solution would actually stop your people getting shot.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
It must be terrible to live in your world.

I don't get shot, so it's better than for some.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
Mass killings with knives happen with more frequency than you'd probably care to admit.

It's still not that common, I bet I could pull up more mass shooting events in the USA than you could pull up knife mass killings in developed countries. Knives are probably most common to domestic killings.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
And as far as proficiency with a knife goes, combat skills are only needed when engaging someone else with weapons. A knife-wielding nutjob with zero training can do a lot of damage in a split second.

Nowhere near as much as with a gun.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:55 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
caused by suicide

Mental health access would help greatly with this statistic.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
part of gang or drug-related criminal activity

Falls under private sales so no need for regulation or back ground check. See: gun show loop hole.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
I don't know why you "like" to bring it up, as it proves nothing

It is the fantasy of "good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun." I did not work for Reagan, it did not work at Sandy Hook, it did not work in Aurora, it did not work at Virginia Tech, it did not work in Chattanooga, it did not work in Tucson.... See a pattern?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
"Guy with gun shoots guy with gun," doesn't make headlines.

Yes it does. As in "innocent bystanders hit during shoot out."

Quoting mham001 (Reply 52):
You don't find Americans doing this in EU threads, what's up with that?

Well, actually, yes.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 45):
Get used to it with all those Syrians you keep letting in. Can you say ISIS?

One bombing in Paris, three in Brussels. Compared to shootings on a daily basis in the United States by private gun owners. Which is worse:

There is a huge problem that happened yesterday, so let's fix it now.

or

There is a huge problem but we can not do a thing about it because one activist group tells us not to.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:38 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 63):
You're not even giving people training, so why don't you even do something like that that makes full use of your 2nd amendment rights?

I've long advocated making firearm safety training starting at an early age; guns are part of society in the U.S. so it makes sense to have safety training in much the same way that sex education is offered in schools.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 63):
You'll still be shooting each other up and the homicide rate won't change much, but still.

The "shooting each other up" that occurs never seems to involve those who actually have been trained to safely handle and respect firearms. So much for your "won't change much" theory.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 63):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):It must be terrible to live in your world.

I don't get shot

Neither do I. And if I or the people I care about get shot at, I can actually protect them.

Can you?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 63):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):And as far as proficiency with a knife goes, combat skills are only needed when engaging someone else with weapons. A knife-wielding nutjob with zero training can do a lot of damage in a split second.

Nowhere near as much as with a gun.

It takes precisely ZERO training to use a knife to inflict a mortal wound. A person who knows zero about firearms would have to do a bit of fiddling with it to figure out how to make use of it.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):caused by suicide

Mental health access would help greatly with this statistic.

I agree.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
It is the fantasy of "good guy with a gun will stop a bad guy with a gun."

The only fantasy is the one in your head where the good guy with a gun never stops a bad guy. It happens frequently.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):"Guy with gun shoots guy with gun," doesn't make headlines.

Yes it does. As in "innocent bystanders hit during shoot out."

Can you cite an example of this occurring? Because anyone with firearms training knows that you must be aware of your target, and what's around/behind it to avoid hitting anyone or anything else.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
One bombing in Paris, three in Brussels.

...so far.  
Quoting seb146 (Reply 64):
Compared to shootings on a daily basis in the United States by private gun owners.

Most of whom are either committing suicide or furthering criminal activity, unlike the bombings in Europe where terrorists indiscriminately went after innocent people.
 
User avatar
pu
Posts: 1364
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:57 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):

Neither do I. And if I or the people I care about get shot at, I can actually protect them.



The thing is, much as wealthy doctors will sooner or later take a big haircut for not figuring out the healthcare crisis without government intervention, gun owners will face more and more controls until THEY fihure out how to stop gun violence. The Left has made their plan clear: gun control, which has worked decisively in every first world nation. The Right offers nothing but unproven rhetoric.

I'm happy to see America keep guns. But only if it works for everyone, not just gun owners. You shouldn't have to be prepared to kill someone or use weaponry to exist freely in a great nation.




Pu.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2929
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:06 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
I've long advocated making firearm safety training starting at an early age; guns are part of society in the U.S. so it makes sense to have safety training in much the same way that sex education is offered in schools.

Funnily enough I don't disagree, but that's because I think it will lower the accident rate but otherwise change little.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
The "shooting each other up" that occurs never seems to involve those who actually have been trained to safely handle and respect firearms. So much for your "won't change much" theory.

Respecting firearms are respecting death aren't the same thing, a gun owner that was responsible and then loses his mind isn't going to stop himself killing because he respects the firearm. Murderers are always going to murder, but having guns makes the job much easier. Do you genuinely think being taught how guns work will make a murderer stop once if they feel they want to kill someone?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
Neither do I. And if I or the people I care about get shot at, I can actually protect them.

Are you awake 24/7, and do you watch over them permanently? Do you have more than one family member, and if so how do you protect them all at once? And do you lock up your gun like a responsible owner? At which point I have to ask what good the ting is for protection if it's locked away?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
Can you?

I don't have to worry about it: we don't get mass shootings here, remember? 20 years and counting...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
It takes precisely ZERO training to use a knife to inflict a mortal wound. A person who knows zero about firearms would have to do a bit of fiddling with it to figure out how to make use of it.

Once the fiddling is done though...

[Edited 2016-04-24 20:09:02]
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:25 am

Quoting pu (Reply 66):
The Right offers nothing but unproven rhetoric.

Interesting that the defense of a constitutional right is labeled as "rhetoric" by you.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 67):
do you lock up your gun like a responsible owner?

Absolutely.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 67):
what good the ting is for protection if it's locked away?

It's in an easily accessible (to me) biometric safe; I can get to it quickly and easily if needed.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 67):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):Can you?

I don't have to worry about it: we don't get mass shootings here, remember?

It doesn't have to be a mass shooting for someone to kill you or someone you love.
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:33 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 67):
do you lock up your gun like a responsible owner?

Absolutely.

How many of those who have dead children had their guns locked up and claimed to be responsible gun owners?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
unlike the bombings in Europe where terrorists indiscriminately went after innocent people.

The difference is that authorities can actually track and figure out where the next bombing is likely. Where will the next mass shooting be in the United States?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
The only fantasy is the one in your head where the good guy with a gun never stops a bad guy. It happens frequently.

Can you cite examples please?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
I've long advocated making firearm safety training starting at an early age

There are other things that would help as well. Firearms safety training would do nothing for me, as I do not live in a home with any firearms. Many people have said that licencing and insurance, similar to autos, would be a good idea. That way, people can still have their guns and prove they are responsible.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
A person who knows zero about firearms would have to do a bit of fiddling with it to figure out how to make use of it.

Once is all it takes.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
Can you cite an example of this occurring?

They do not have much in the way of firearms training in Texas. Or anywhere, for that matter. The NRA will not hear of it.

Take your pick:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=innocent+bystander+shot
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2929
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:44 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
It's in an easily accessible (to me) biometric safe; I can get to it quickly and easily if needed.

I can still see a way through this. A bit of planning and a bit of stealth.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
It doesn't have to be a mass shooting for someone to kill you or someone you love.

Thankfully the gun homicide rate is 50 times lower, so realistically I've got no worries on that score. If it's the question of home security I'm not too worried, I've got so many dogs that I can have dogs on my face, and dogs on my dogs on my face when I wake up, they keep us safe. My mum's worked in London for so many years and had nothing happen even when the IRA were fashionable, so I still surmise that I'm safer here.
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:06 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 69):
How many of those who have dead children had their guns locked up and claimed to be responsible gun owners?

Do a Google search; most didn't have them locked up, and therefore could not be "responsible" if they have kids in the home who haven't been taught about firearm safety.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 69):
The difference is that authorities can actually track and figure out where the next bombing is likely.

If they can do what you say, why did those attacks still occur?

Fact is the authorities cannot say with certainty precisely where or when a terrorist attack will occur.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 69):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):The only fantasy is the one in your head where the good guy with a gun never stops a bad guy. It happens frequently.
Can you cite examples please?

Here's eleven, for starters:

Eleven Times a Good Guy With a Gun Stopped a Bad Guy, Saving Lives - Washington Times

Quoting seb146 (Reply 69):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):I've long advocated making firearm safety training starting at an early age
There are other things that would help as well. Firearms safety training would do nothing for me, as I do not live in a home with any firearms.

You don't need to have a firearm in your home to benefit from others being trained on safe handling. What if the teenager next door hasn't been taught, has an irresponsible owner for a parent, and handles a gun that he accidentally discharges, firing through his wall, through yours, and into your head?

In hindsight, would you THEN think a little safety training for that kid would have helped you?
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:07 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 70):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):It's in an easily accessible (to me) biometric safe; I can get to it quickly and easily if needed.
I can still see a way through this.

Not when I wipe my fingerprint off the scanner each time.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2929
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:19 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):
Eleven Times a Good Guy With a Gun Stopped a Bad Guy, Saving Lives - Washington Times

Sure, people occasionally stop others and themselves from getting shot. But gun deaths still happen, and the evidence is fairly strong in saying that tighter regulations mean fewer deaths.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 72):
Not when I wipe my fingerprint off the scanner each time.

I was more thinking that they catch you before you get your gun out, it would still take a few seconds, even assuming you were alert which is not going to be the case when you're asleep, and if the intruder gets their gun trained at you then you're screwed.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):
You don't need to have a firearm in your home to benefit from others being trained on safe handling. What if the teenager next door hasn't been taught, has an irresponsible owner for a parent, and handles a gun that he accidentally discharges, firing through his wall, through yours, and into your head?

That would be MOST unfortunate. That's a hypothetical scenario, and a highly unlikely one. We're dealing with the real world here.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:16 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 54):
What freedoms do you have that anyone else in a first world country doesn't, remember the patriot act changed a lot for you guys.

The right to carry arms and defend yourself and your family with lethal force. If you depend on the state for your safety, you are not free.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:36 am

Question: why weren't the victims armed, and excellent shots whilst sleeping?  
Quoting seahawk (Reply 74):
The right to carry arms and defend yourself and your family with lethal force. If you depend on the state for your safety, you are not free.

And if you're asleep, then what? Thoughts 'n prayers?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 73):
But gun deaths still happen, and the evidence is fairly strong in saying that tighter regulations mean fewer deaths.

 checkmark  But it's not in the bible so no one is ever going to tell the right about it Yeah sure
Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 73):
I was more thinking that they catch you before you get your gun out, it would still take a few seconds, even assuming you were alert which is not going to be the case when you're asleep, and if the intruder gets their gun trained at you then you're screwed.

Logic. What a concept.

[Edited 2016-04-24 22:43:40]
 
User avatar
alberchico
Posts: 3383
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 5:52 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:45 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
So if you have been watching the latest news on this but it turns out to family has at least three commercial majuanja grow operations in working.

All signs point to a professional hit, most likely in connection with their illegal activities.

Banning the right to own guns would not have stopped these professional killings.

In the big picture it was their pot that killed them.

Is it possible there might have been a large amount of cash in the house as a result of drug sales that the hitmen knew about ? That might be a possible motive...
 
QF29
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:10 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:03 am

Why cant a gun license introduced? Like a drivers license, you would have to pass a written and practical exam in order to recive one. It would help educate gun owners, fish out the dangerous inderviduals and help keep track of gun sales.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4127
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:42 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 74):
The right to carry arms

I have 3 guns. A handgun, a shotgun and a rifle (two of those American-made, btw).

Yes, I had to apply for a license (two separate licenses actually, since the long guns are part of a hunting license and the handgun is part of a target shooting license).

There are millions of legal (and illegal) guns in Europe. Some of the regulations might seem silly to you guys but they're there for a reason and for the most part they work in actually making us safer (as opposed to making you feel safe until all hell breaks loose).
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6202
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:51 am

I didn't care about reading the first 38298 posts in this thread. It's all the same, all over again.

What really strikes me: What value does human life have in the US? Isn't the government's first responsibility to protect its citizens?

Is life a right? If so, how is it protected?

Getting a pilot's license is tightly regulated, for the safety and well-being of property, society, the population, and the passengers. So is handling dangerous substances, building skyscrapers, operating radio transmitters and nuclear reactors.

The nauseous suggestions that one could collect evidence and then get a court to take the neighbour's guns away is futile. First, the judge will probably weigh the 2nd Amendment higher than my right to be reasonably safe from dangers. And then, the judge will probably say "Has he ever threatened you? If no, then I have no reason to act."

99.9% of all terrorists are first-time criminals. Just for their own operational security, they just cannot allow bad behaviour - lest their plans be uncovered. If my neighbour is really dangerous and has access to guns, chances are high that he'll kill me before I can get the judge to act.

Let's face it - guns are the semi-official US state religion. Before we relegate guns from "holy objects" to "dangerous tools", nothing will happen.



David
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 6:52 am

Quoting qf29 (Reply 77):
Why cant a gun license introduced? Like a drivers license, you would have to pass a written and practical exam in order to recive one

Because it makes the baby jesus cry or something. The NRA prattles on and on about responsible gun owners but fights every effort to ensure gun owners are responsible tooth and nail. Any barrier to selling more guns is verboten according to the NRA, because after all that's really all they care about: selling more guns.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:07 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 75):
And if you're asleep, then what? Thoughts 'n prayers?

Armed Guards.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 79):
What really strikes me: What value does human life have in the US? Isn't the government's first responsibility to protect its citizens?

No, the first responsibility is giving the people the right and capability to defend themselves, so that they can defend themselves not only against other people but also against the state. That is why every free man should have the right to carry a gun. In fact it is a duty not a right. And that is why the US is the only free country in the world. If you take this right away, it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6202
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:24 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.

I understand. We Europeans are not allowed to own weapons to defend our livelihoods against the tyrannical government. No right to possess artillery, fighter jets, machine guns, anti-tank mines and other sensible things. The standing armies of all our governments could crush us any day, put us into slave labor camps, or exterminate us. Now I want to move to the US where people are truly free, where the 2nd Amendment puts the citizens on equal footing to the U.S. Armed Forces.  


David

[Edited 2016-04-25 00:28:18]
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:29 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
Armed Guards.

LOL is that the next brilliant idea from the NRA terrorists? Everyone has a right to bear arms *and* an armed guard for when they are asleep and/or not directly aiming at any incoming threat? Imagine the unbridled freedom when everyone is armed *and* has an armed guard! So much freedom.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
In fact it is a duty not a right. And that is why the US is the only free country in the world

That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard



Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 82):
Now I want to move to the US where people are truly free, where the 2nd Amendment puts the citizens on equal footing to the U.S. Armed Forces.  

We all have an arsenal that will match a drone or fighter jet strike for strike. Or not Silly


[Edited 2016-04-25 00:47:15]
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:57 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
That is why every free man should have the right to carry a gun. In fact it is a duty not a right. And that is why the US is the only free country in the world. If you take this right away, it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.

I'll have to repeat myself:

Quoting aloges (Reply 47):
If ever you wish to understand why someone might call you "gun nuts", this is why.

Have you gone off the deep end or are you just trolling?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 20318
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:16 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
And if I or the people I care about get shot at, I can actually protect them.

You might be able to for the small percentage of the time you're actually with them. What about the vast majority of the time when you're not?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
That is why every free man should have the right to carry a gun. In fact it is a duty not a right. And that is why the US is the only free country in the world. If you take this right away, it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.

Say what?       
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6202
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:19 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 83):
Everyone has a right to bear arms *and* an armed guard for when they are asleep and/or not directly aiming at any incoming threat?

That's the logical conclusion if the 2nd Amendment is also valid for disabled people. A blind person should have the right to an armed guard, yes. A mentally ill person should also be entitled to an armed guard if he cannot be entrusted with his own weapon.

All men are created equal!

In extension - one very common interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is that it enables the people (yes, you!) to counter government tyranny. But if possession of suitable weapons (tanks, fighter jets, SAM batteries...) is forbidden, then the 2nd Amendment has no value.

Every interpretation of the 2nd Amendment brought forward by the gun lovers has one or several logical inconsistencies.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 83):
That is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever heard

One germane point about Germans is their fine sense for irony.


David

[Edited 2016-04-25 01:20:53]
 
Redd
Posts: 1427
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:31 am

Quoting ArmitageShanks (Reply 9):
Because it makes them feel superior.

Europeans don't have any need to feel superior over Americans, there are no Euro-Americano inferiority complexes. It's genuine concern for fellow humanity and our perplexion at the absurdity of the need to own guns, not sufficiently regulating the ones that have already been purchased and how they have been so, and the devastation it is currently causing.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
And that is why the US is the only free country in the world.
Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.

  
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15891
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:36 am

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 73):
I was more thinking that they catch you before you get your gun out, it would still take a few seconds, even assuming you were alert which is not going to be the case when you're asleep, and if the intruder gets their gun trained at you then you're screwed.

Great, so now we're taking arguments to the ridiculous? If a team of super-duper stealth ninjas had cased my house and were hell-bent on killing me, knew precisely where my bedroom was while in my darkened home, managed to slip into my home undetected in the dead of night - oh, and did I mention they carry guns? - and put a gun to my temple while I slept, well yeah, I guess I'm screwed.

But for the average home intruder - the dumbass who kicks in the front door - yeah, I'm liking my odds.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 85):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):And if I or the people I care about get shot at, I can actually protect them.

You might be able to for the small percentage of the time you're actually with them. What about the vast majority of the time when you're not?

Well I guess you've got me there, chief - might as well surrender my right to protect my family since I cannot possibly be with them 24/7, right?   
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:00 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 82):

I understand. We Europeans are not allowed to own weapons to defend our livelihoods against the tyrannical government. No right to possess artillery, fighter jets, machine guns, anti-tank mines and other sensible things. The standing armies of all our governments could crush us any day, put us into slave labor camps, or exterminate us. Now I want to move to the US where people are truly free, where the 2nd Amendment puts the citizens on equal footing to the U.S. Armed Forces.

What I put down is the basic difference in ideology. In Europe the state is responsible for providing safety, which makes sense as the European states are old states with long established structures. But we should not forget that even in Europe of old times, the right to carry a sword was the difference between the free men and the bondsmen.

The US is a much younger state, there the sword was replaced by the gun, but the idea behind the constitution and the gun law, was one of equality based on the experience from Europe, the monarchical states and their violence towards certain groups in their societies who then often decided to migrate to the US. It is not different to the freedom of speech and religion, but people had learned that defending those rights might be impossible if the population lacks the means to defend itself against a state trying to take those rights away.

If this is still fitting modern times, is a different question. But then the gun laws in each state are so different, that it is not a general US problem. And we should not forget that one of the worst shooting incidents in recent times happened in Sweden.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:10 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 89):
the monarchical states and their violence towards certain groups in their societies

Haven't we had certain changes in the past century?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 89):
people had learned that defending those rights might be impossible if the population lacks the means to defend itself against a state trying to take those rights away

These days, it is the duty of the government to defend the population from those who wish to take their rights away. As you display a German flag in your profile, I hope that you're familiar with the concept of "wehrhafte Demokratie" (militant democracy)?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 89):
And we should not forget that one of the worst shooting incidents in recent times happened in Sweden.

Which incident are you referring to?
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 6202
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:14 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 90):
Which incident are you referring to?

You don't know, aloges? The massacre against the youth socialists on the island of Utöja... *duck and cover*


David
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 10:34 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 90):

These days, it is the duty of the government to defend the population from those who wish to take their rights away. As you display a German flag in your profile, I hope that you're familiar with the concept of "wehrhafte Demokratie" (militant democracy)?

Wehrhafte Demokratie means the duty of the society to defend democracy, freedom and human rights. It is not the job of the government to do it for the people. The US constitution had a very similar idea, but a much more physical solution.

Quoting aloges (Reply 90):
Which incident are you referring to?

Andres Breivik, but I was wrong and that happened in Norway.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:27 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 92):
Wehrhafte Demokratie means the duty of the society to defend democracy, freedom and human rights. It is not the job of the government to do it for the people.

Yikes. Wehrhafte Demokratie is the way the political system in this country is designed. Its purpose is to defend the "Freiheitlich-Demokratische Grundordnung" (free democratic basic order) and very much the job of the government, the high court (BVerfG), the parliament and the people. The most prominent example of it at work is high court decisions on controversial new laws. Another is the impossibility of a new "Ermächtigungsgesetz" in the current system. Add the "eternity clause" and you've got quite a few significant bulwarks against tyranny.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 92):
Andres Breivik, but I was wrong and that happened in Norway.

Yikes again.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:06 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 89):
And we should not forget that one of the worst shooting incidents in recent times happened in Sweden.

Once again proving that for gun nuts, math iz hard 
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5055
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:29 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
That is why every free man should have the right to carry a gun. In fact it is a duty not a right. And that is why the US is the only free country in the world. If you take this right away, it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.

Please tell me you're being sarcastic, because that is quite possibly the silliest thing I've read here in a very long time, and there's some tough competition.

Oh, and if you live in a place where you actually NEED an armed guard to watch over your safety at night, I don't think you can honestly call yourself 'free'...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):
Great, so now we're taking arguments to the ridiculous?

Um, weren't you the one who wrote:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):
You don't need to have a firearm in your home to benefit from others being trained on safe handling. What if the teenager next door hasn't been taught, has an irresponsible owner for a parent, and handles a gun that he accidentally discharges, firing through his wall, through yours, and into your head?

...because MrHMSH's hypothetical situation seems a lot more plausible than yours...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):
But for the average home intruder - the dumbass who kicks in the front door - yeah, I'm liking my odds.

You realise the home intruder is there just to steal your TV and valuables, not to kill you, right? Now here's the question: are your TV and car SO valuable to you that you're willing to escalate the situation to a potentially life-or-death situation?

Plus, in a country where everyone has or can have a gun, do you think said robber will be more or less likely to also be armed? And will he be more or less likely to shoot at the first thing that moves?
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 10417
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 2:26 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):

Please tell me you're being sarcastic, because that is quite possibly the silliest thing I've read here in a very long time, and there's some tough competition.

That is the idea behind the US constitution and imho it made a lot of sense in the historical context. If it is still makes sense today, is something the Americans have to decide.One might not be wrong to expect the fans of "intelligent creation" to have a hard time adjusting to modern values and modern society though.

[Edited 2016-04-25 07:28:52]
 
Okie
Posts: 4261
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 3:27 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):
You realise the home intruder is there just to steal your TV and valuables, not to kill you, right? Now here's the question: are your TV and car SO valuable to you that you're willing to escalate the situation to a potentially life-or-death situation

The OP topic was about person/persons with criminal intent to assassinate an entire family and family members at several locations.

Now you are trying to justify the criminals behavior?

Amazing.

Okie
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5055
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:33 pm

Quoting Okie (Reply 97):
Now you are trying to justify the criminals behavior?

In what completely crazy parallel universe are you reading my post to be able to interpret it in that fucked-up way?

Quoting Okie (Reply 97):
Amazing.

You can certainly say that again...
 
User avatar
seb146
Posts: 24174
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:56 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):
are your TV and car SO valuable to you that you're willing to escalate the situation to a potentially life-or-death situation?

This is a much more plausible and real scenario that has actually happened, rather than "some guy next door fires in a random direction and the bullet travels through two walls (or more) and hits you in the head, killing you instantly."

In the situation of a home invasion robbery, anyone in that situation who has a gun, will fire at whatever moves. That could be anything from the robber to the home owner to a child to the family dog being shot. But, according to gun nuts, it is justifiable that life is taken.

Keep in mind these are the same people who align themselves with the "every life is sacred" group.

Questions for the "all guns, all the time" people:

Why can this country not have a discussion on guns, gun safety, gun regulation? Why is your response to that question "You 'gun grabbing liberals' just want to take all guns away!!!!"? When has anyone in the United States who wants this conversation ever said "Let's take all guns away"?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: NIKV69, speedygonzales, TheF15Ace and 17 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos