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L-188
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:37 pm

Quoting alberchico (Reply 76):

Is it possible there might have been a large amount of cash in the house as a result of drug sales that the hitmen knew about ? That might be a possible motive...

It might not even be that complicated, rival drug maker trying to eliminate a competitor, somebody moving in on his/her territory.

But the point is still that this was a drug crime, blame the pot they were growing and probably using, not the gun.

Being a professional hit, the killers would have gotten a hold of them anyway.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 8:58 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 71):You don't need to have a firearm in your home to benefit from others being trained on safe handling. What if the teenager next door hasn't been taught, has an irresponsible owner for a parent, and handles a gun that he accidentally discharges, firing through his wall, through yours, and into your head?
...because MrHMSH's hypothetical situation seems a lot more plausible than yours...

That "hypothetical" situation has actually occurred. "Overpenetration" is one of the reasons shotguns are favored for home defense, as high-powered bullets can go through walls.

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):But for the average home intruder - the dumbass who kicks in the front door - yeah, I'm liking my odds.

You realise the home intruder is there just to steal your TV and valuables, not to kill you, right?

Seeing as home invasions have also included armed individuals who have murdered their victims, how am I to know the difference when the door gets kicked in - should I take a quick poll before I retrieve my weapon?   

Quoting seb146 (Reply 99):
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):are your TV and car SO valuable to you that you're willing to escalate the situation to a potentially life-or-death situation?

This is a much more plausible and real scenario that has actually happened, rather than "some guy next door fires in a random direction and the bullet travels through two walls (or more) and hits you in the head, killing you instantly."


See above; I'm not the one making it life-or-death by my response; the criminal kicking in my front door while my family and I are home is the one creating the situation.

Again, the "death by random shot" from next door situation has actually occurred. In fact, there are laws against firing in the air specifically because people - in some cases, a mile or more away - have been struck and killed by the falling bullets.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):
Well I guess you've got me there, chief - might as well surrender my right to protect my family since I cannot possibly be with them 24/7, right?

Well that's your decision. I was simply pointing out that your ability to protect your family is necessarily limited to the relatively short time that you're with them (assuming you work a job).
 
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zckls04
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):
If one were concerned enough to listen to facts, gun deaths in the US have trended down significantly.

I think gun ownership has declined in the same time period though, so that doesn't necessarily tell us much.

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 18):
I have individual liberty*, the UK's human rights record (recently) is more than acceptable AND I don't have to worry about getting shot up. Win win win!

Yes, everybody here wants to be John Wayne, and I find it as silly as you do. But at the same time it's important to remember that I don't go around worrying about getting shot up either. Statistically it's an incredibly unlikely event. I don't worry about it any more than I do about Islamic terrorism, or plane crashes, or getting struck by lightning.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4323
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:54 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 43):
but trying to take all the guns is not going happen.

especially since hardly anyone even suggests that as a solution to the problem. If someone wants to change a speed limit near a school people don't start screaming "they are going to take my car away".

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
In the big picture it was their pot that killed them

no, it was Adam, him and eve gave birth to all our ancestors and therefore it's their fault they were born and so their fault they were shot!

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
Curious that you chose to omit the number of firearm deaths caused by suicide or as part of gang or drug-related criminal activity. Could it be that those numbers would make your stats look awfully weak?

what are those stats?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
A person who knows zero about firearms would have to do a bit of fiddling with it to figure out how to make use of it.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
I've long advocated making firearm safety training starting at an early age; guns are part of society in the U.S. so it makes sense to have safety training in much the same way that sex education is offered in schools

so knives are more dangerous because you need training g to use a gun but you think there should be gun training?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):
furthering criminal activity,

so guns are a lubricant to criminal behaviour?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):
It's in an easily accessible (to me) biometric safe; I can get to it quickly and easily if needed.

Surely that has the same issue as a biometric trigger in that sometimes it might not work and the split second you need to shoot a bullet out of the air or whatever it is you hope to do.

Quoting qf29 (Reply 77):
Why cant a gun license introduced? Like a drivers license, you would have to pass a written and practical exam in order to recive one. It would help educate gun owners, fish out the dangerous inderviduals and help keep track of gun sales.

because there is a fear that if the government know who has what guns then they'll use it as a tactical advantage when they come and grab all the guns. Not sure why all the paranoia but seems pretty debilitating, doesn't really sound like freedom to me but everyone has their own definition I guess.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):
But for the average home intruder
Quoting Scorpio (Reply 95):
You realise the home intruder is there just to steal your TV and valuables, not to kill you, right? Now here's the question: are your TV and car SO valuable to you that you're willing to escalate the situation to a potentially life-or-death situation?

i find that odd too, apparently 'my stuff' is more important than other people's lives. To the point that you risk your own families life for 'stuff'.

Instead of spending money on firearms to protect ones family and likely putting them in more danger, why not spend it on living somewhere that such measures are not needed.

Fred
 
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seb146
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Mon Apr 25, 2016 11:35 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
i find that odd too, apparently 'my stuff' is more important than other people's lives.

Let's not forget there are shootings where a family member is shot because "I thought it was a burgler." Another example of responsible gun ownership.

Again, if people need insurance and a licence for a motor vehicle (which is a total and complete option) then there should be insurance and licencing requirements for ownership and use of a deadly weapon which has no other purpose than death. Why is that not acceptable to even mention?

And, no, that is not even close to the same thing as "taking all guns away" is it?

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 101):
the criminal kicking in my front door

So many home invasion robberies are during the day when no one is home. These masked men breaking down doors with guns a blazin' is not the rule, but the exception.

Go look up statistics.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 101):
"death by random shot" from next door situation has actually occurred

Not enough to even be a factor, so there was no need to bring it up.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:06 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 99):
Why can this country not have a discussion on guns, gun safety, gun regulation? Why is your response to that question "You 'gun grabbing liberals' just want to take all guns away!!!!"? When has anyone in the United States who wants this conversation ever said "Let's take all guns away"?

Because you people don't want a conversation. You want a total outright ban. So Seb, come and take them. From my cold, dead hands.

-DiamondFlyer
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:17 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):

Because you people don't want a conversation. You want a total outright ban.

Very Very true.
 
coolian2
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:26 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
Because you people don't want a conversation. You want a total outright ban. So Seb, come and take them. From my cold, dead hands.

I don't see a need for an outright ban.

I do see a need to keep them from people who are completely and utterly irrational, and are prepared to give their lives for a potentially lethal toy....
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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Joined: Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:14 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:51 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
Because you people don't want a conversation.

So what do you call whats happening with this thread.....

Id call it a conversation, and Im sure most here would agree, completely.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
You want a total outright ban.

He's never said that. Hes just advocating for better rules/controls, and enforcements, so would you care to enlighten us as to who exactly here is calling of an outright ban ?

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
Because you people don't want a conversation.

I think its you who dosent want a conversation. Especially when you say things like the quote below,   

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
So Seb, come and take them. From my cold, dead hands.



Careful what you wish for. DiamondFlyer....Remember you live in the US and therefor have a much greater chance of experiencing just what you said. Cold daed hands.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:10 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):
Great, so now we're taking arguments to the ridiculous? If a team of super-duper stealth ninjas had cased my house and were hell-bent on killing me, knew precisely where my bedroom was while in my darkened home, managed to slip into my home undetected in the dead of night - oh, and did I mention they carry guns? - and put a gun to my temple while I slept, well yeah, I guess I'm screwed.

Uh, unless you keep your gun ready to go and aimed 100% of the time, you can be caught off guard 99.99% of the time.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
So Seb, come and take them. From my cold, dead hands.

LOL or when you're asleep. But again no one's calling for an outright ban but the gun nuts aren't too bright and only respond to the dog whistle of gun safety=they tuk urr gunz!

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 109):
Careful what you wish for. DiamondFlyer....Remember you live in the US and therefor have a much greater chance of experiencing just what you said. Cold daed hands.

Fairly often cold and dead as a result of one's own gun...
 
wingman
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:17 am

Today I read a stat claiming that since 1968 over 1.4MM people have been killed with firearms in the United States, more than all Americans killed in all wars in our history. We are indeed exceptional in many respects.
 
flipdewaf
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Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:23 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
You want a total outright ban.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 107):
Very Very true

Resorting to lies? Sad... Very Very sad.

Fred
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:32 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 108):
I do see a need to keep them from people who are completely and utterly irrational,

The only irrational people on this thread are the ones that are pushing for a gun ban....

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 109):
Id call it a conversation, and Im sure most here would agree, completely.

No you didn't start this thread to start a conversation.

You started it to attack a civil right, a right that your own government doesn't think you have the maturity to enjoy. Frankly I feel sorry for you that you need to start this because it really does show your complete lack of firearms knowldege, history and operation.
 
coolian2
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
The only irrational people on this thread are the ones that are pushing for a gun ban....

Find me one. With direct quotes.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:49 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 114):

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
The only irrational people on this thread are the ones that are pushing for a gun ban....

Find me one. With direct quotes.

Well we can start with TheCommodore's opening post.

Quoting TheCommodore (Thread starter):
So, yet another family devastated by guns.

He has never tried to have a civil discussion on any of his gun threads that he has ever started and participated in and this one is no different.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:51 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 112):

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
You want a total outright ban.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 107):
Very Very true

Resorting to lies? Sad... Very Very sad.

Fred

What lie Fred.

BTW, another one for you list Coolan2
 
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MrHMSH
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:00 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 115):
Well we can start with TheCommodore's opening post.

'So, yet another family devastated by guns' = 'WE MUST TAKE ALL THEIR GUNS!'. I challenge you to find a quote on this thread where someone says anything even vaguely related to 'No one should be allowed guns, there should be a ban'.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4323
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:28 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:04 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 116):
What lie Fred

Well considering that I'd actually quoted in the very same post I thought you might have seen it. I was referencing reply 106, Diamondflyer stated "you want a total outright ban".

Quoting L-188 (Reply 116):
BTW, another one for you list Coolan2

list of liars or list of those calling for outright ban? Might have missed a lie but I'd call you, as coolian2 did, to find a direct quote to go with your assertion of people calling for an outright ban. I m is of only one person o. These boards that regularly calls for an outright ban and I don't think MaxQ has partaken in this thread.

Fred
 
TheCommodore
Topic Author
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:19 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
No you didn't start this thread to start a conversation.

Ummm, yes I did, and it has !

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
You started it to attack a civil right, a right that your own government doesn't think you have the maturity to enjoy.

Attack a civil right,how so ?

I never said anything about civil rights !

Quoting L-188 (Reply 115):
He has never tried to have a civil discussion on any of his gun threads that he has ever started and participated in and this one is no different.

Evidence please

Quoting L-188 (Reply 115):
Well we can start with TheCommodore's opening post.

Again.... where did I call for a ban ?

Quoting MrHMSH (Reply 119):
'So, yet another family devastated by guns' = 'WE MUST TAKE ALL THEIR GUNS!'. I challenge you to find a quote on this thread

He won't.

This poster feels threatened, very threatened by any conversation about guns and ownership, as is evidenced by his post after post

     
 
aloges
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:14 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
From my cold, dead hands.

Thank you for proving my point:

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):
Everybody now: "From my cold, dead hands!"   
 
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seb146
Posts: 24172
Joined: Wed Dec 01, 1999 7:19 am

RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:17 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 115):
Quoting coolian2 (Reply 114):

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
The only irrational people on this thread are the ones that are pushing for a gun ban....

Find me one. With direct quotes.

Well we can start with TheCommodore's opening post.

How is "another family devastated by guns" even remotely the same as "ban all guns now and forever!"? Classic right wing knee-jerk reaction instead of actually talking about something: name calling and red herrings until people go away and, then, voila! Instant win in any argument! Well played, right wingers! Well played!
 
aloges
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:47 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 124):
How is "another family devastated by guns" even remotely the same as "ban all guns now and forever!"?

I've noticed a pattern among a few people, most of them to the right of the political spectrum: they believe that if a proposed solution* isn't expected to solve the respective problem in its entirety, it's not worth pursuing. This "all or nothing" approach is deeply ingrained in their thinking, deeply enough for them to believe that everyone's proposals for solutions are as radical as their own. This, in turn, means that they understand any argument for gun control to mean "ban all guns now and forever" no matter how many times one might explain why that isn't so.

That sort of radicalism and makes discussing most issues impossible. Climate change? "You just want to ban all fossil fuels!" Gay marriage? "That's the end of marriage!" Civil rights? "Racism against white people!" Different distribution of wealth? "This is not the USSR!" And so on and so forth...

*such as electric cars replacing fewer than all conventional cars
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4323
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:00 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 125):

i think there could be some victim mentality too, like if someone cries racist if you disagree with someone of a different race, whether it has to do with race or not.

Fred
 
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seb146
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:26 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 125):
This "all or nothing" approach is deeply ingrained in their thinking,

That's another thing I do not get: we are not all the same. We all have different needs and wants and desires. It really is hard, impossible, to please everyone. But, to make the greatest number of people comfortable is the best.

That is why I do not understand the unwillingness to talk about gun regulation or transgenders using public bathrooms or selling cakes to same gender couples. As a gay cis-gender man, I do not understand transgenders. I don't care, but I don't understand. A person born a man is happy as a woman. No skin off my nose. A person owning a firearm. No skin off my nose. A person worshiping a specific god, no skin off my nose.

Exactly what right wingers preach but never actually do.

But, when random people hurt, maim, bully, bloody, kill others and we want something done, we start hearing "you hate America!" or "you just don't understand how violated us majority are persecuted!" is just insane.

I am still waiting to hear where anyone has ever called for the complete and total ban on all firearms in the United States from Americans. Even people from EU say "I don't understand how you all can deal with this" yet no demand for bans on firearms. Travel advisories, yes, but not total bans.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5055
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:29 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 101):
That "hypothetical" situation has actually occurred. "Overpenetration" is one of the reasons shotguns are favored for home defense, as high-powered bullets can go through walls.

What, and MrHMSH's hasn't? Because it's a LOT more plausible than yours...

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 101):
Seeing as home invasions have also included armed individuals who have murdered their victims, how am I to know the difference when the door gets kicked in - should I take a quick poll before I retrieve my weapon?

And how many of those burglars went into the house with the INTENTION of killing the victims? And how many did so precisely because they shot at the first thing that moved, as a result of the fear that everyone can be armed in the US?
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 101):
See above; I'm not the one making it life-or-death by my response; the criminal kicking in my front door while my family and I are home is the one creating the situation.

And you're escalating it. The intruder kicking in your door is doing something highly illegal and dangerous, but not life-or-death. You, by your reaction, escalate it to that level.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 106):
Because you people don't want a conversation. You want a total outright ban. So Seb, come and take them. From my cold, dead hands.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 107):
Very Very true.

Do you people live in THIS world, or in some fantasy world where your own delusions are real? I haven't seen anyone here suggest that ALL the guns are taken away, just that there needs to be some serious regulation, like there is in the rest of the western world. But of course, that's a much more difficult stance to argue against, so you take the easy path and scream 'don't take mah gunzzz' instead...

God forbid you'd have to actually come up with real arguments...

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
The only irrational people on this thread are the ones that are pushing for a gun ban

Ah. So no-one then, as no-one here has suggested a 'gun ban'.
 
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pu
Posts: 1364
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:49 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 103):
Statistically it's an incredibly unlikely event.

Both the Left snd Right are blind to this...and the Europeans too, immodestly lecturing from across the sea.

My friend EA CO AS is worried about deadly home invasions, which happens about 100 times per year.*
...while many others are banging on about public shootings of strangers, which is QUITE A BIT more common**, but statistically irrelevant.

Maybe both sides should worry more about problems everyone deals with everyday?



Pu.

*
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/...onal-fear-of-home-invasion/266613/

**
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/n...ass-shootings-america-gun-violence
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:05 am

Quoting pu (Reply 126):
Maybe both sides should worry more about problems everyone deals with everyday?

How many of those 1000+ deaths were as the result of gang and/or drug-related criminal activity?
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:07 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 103):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):If one were concerned enough to listen to facts, gun deaths in the US have trended down significantly.
I think gun ownership has declined in the same time period though

Actually, the opposite. Gun ownership has increased.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):Curious that you chose to omit the number of firearm deaths caused by suicide or as part of gang or drug-related criminal activity. Could it be that those numbers would make your stats look awfully weak?
what are those stats?

First off, per the CDC, nearly two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths are suicides, and from a similar CDC report, most homicides are gang or drug related:

a staggering 80% of gun homicides are gang-related. According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), gang homicides accounted for roughly 8,900 of 11,100 gun murders in both 2010 and 2011. That means that there were just 2,200 non gang-related firearm murders in both years in a country of over 300 million people and 250 million guns.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):A person who knows zero about firearms would have to do a bit of fiddling with it to figure out how to make use of it.Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):I've long advocated making firearm safety training starting at an early age; guns are part of society in the U.S. so it makes sense to have safety training in much the same way that sex education is offered in schools
so knives are more dangerous because you need training g to use a gun but you think there should be gun training?

The training aspect refers to safe handling, avoiding accidental discharge.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 65):furthering criminal activity,
so guns are a lubricant to criminal behaviour?

They enable criminals to use them improperly, to advance criminal enterprises.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 68):It's in an easily accessible (to me) biometric safe; I can get to it quickly and easily if needed.
Surely that has the same issue as a biometric trigger in that sometimes it might not work and the split second you need to shoot

Different technology. And don't call me Shirley.  
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
Quoting qf29 (Reply 77):Why cant a gun license introduced? Like a drivers license, you would have to pass a written and practical exam in order to recive one. It would help educate gun owners, fish out the dangerous inderviduals and help keep track of gun sales.

because there is a fear that if the government

What other constitutional right does one need a license to use? Free speech?

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 104):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 88):But for the average home intruderQuoting Scorpio (Reply 95):You realise the home intruder is there just to steal your TV and valuables, not to kill you, right? Now here's the question: are your TV and car SO valuable to you that you're willing to escalate the situation to a potentially life-or-death situation?
i find that odd too, apparently 'my stuff' is more important than other people's lives. To the point that you risk your own families life for 'stuff'.

Do you have the time to assess the intent of the individuals who have just kicked in your door at 2am? "Oh, you're just here for the TV and the laptops? Sorry gents, give me a moment to hustle my family out of here and you can get underway..."

C'mon now, don't be dense.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:10 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 125):
And how many of those burglars went into the house with the INTENTION of killing the victims? And how many did so precisely because they shot at the first thing that moved, as a result of the fear that everyone can be armed in the US?

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc arguments? C'mon now...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:36 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 128):
First off, per the CDC, nearly two-thirds of all firearm-related deaths are suicides, and from a similar CDC report, most homicides are gang or drug related:

So we do nothing about that? Ignore it? Thoughts 'n prayers? Do we give people at risk of committing suicide with a firearm more guns to protect themselves from themselves, as per the NRA braintrust?  
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 128):
a staggering 80% of gun homicides are gang-related. According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), gang homicides accounted for roughly 8,900 of 11,100 gun murders in both 2010 and 2011. That means that there were just 2,200 non gang-related firearm murders in both years in a country of over 300 million people and 250 million guns.

This is totally false. There were less than 2000 gang related murders by any means including guns in 2011, so not sure how you got 8900 gang related gun deaths. This compares to a total 11,000+ gun homicides in 2011. Plus gang membership up but gang violence is down, so using the NRA's "reasoning", gangs are keeping us safe. And freedom or something.
 
coolian2
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:48 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 113):
The only irrational people on this thread are the ones that are pushing for a gun ban....
Quoting coolian2 (Reply 114):
Find me one. With direct quotes.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 115):
Well we can start with TheCommodore's opening post.
Quoting L-188 (Reply 116):
BTW, another one for you list Coolan2
Quoting coolian2 (Reply 114):
Find me one. With direct quotes.

This can't be that hard a request.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:45 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 130):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 128):a staggering 80% of gun homicides are gang-related. According to the Center for Disease Control (CDC), gang homicides accounted for roughly 8,900 of 11,100 gun murders in both 2010 and 2011. That means that there were just 2,200 non gang-related firearm murders in both years in a country of over 300 million people and 250 million guns.

This is totally false.

So, let me get this straight - you're accusing the non-partisan CDC of fabricating data?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:03 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 132):
So, let me get this straight - you're accusing the non-partisan CDC of fabricating data?

Find where the CDC said that and then we'll see who I'm accusing of what
 
Toni_
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:17 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 61):
Curious that you chose to omit the number of firearm deaths caused by suicide or as part of gang or drug-related criminal activity. Could it be that those numbers would make your stats look awfully weak?


To keep it in context:
Quoting Toni_ (Reply 40):
The way pro-gunners play down the events in these threads always astound me. You can throw stats out all day long...but the reactions always tend to be: "meh, shit happens, and shit happens everywhere. Stop hating on the US."

Yes, those stats include suicides and crime related deaths, but it also includes numbers of dead children and mass shootings, and the way you appear to skip over those groups that easy is exactly the worrisome point I'm trying to make.

I asked the following question earlier, and I'll address it to you too. Wouldn't you agree with me, that even without the suicides and gang/crime related deaths, you still remain with numbers that are way too high for a first world country? Cause it's the playdown of a serious problem that kinda comes across as if you don't even care about the wasted lives of your fellow citizens.

I have family members in the States that own a gun. I've had interesting conversations with them and listened how they shared their worries about this issue. That alone helped me understand their point of view and respect the law a bit more. It was good to hear how they were acknowledging the problem and attempted to come out with possible solutions that could bring down the number of innocent victims. It definately showed a great deal of responsibility. Responsibility that doesn't just stop at thinking straight, taking tests and having your fire arm secured in a biometric case. It was responsibility that went beyond that.

Now wouldn't it be great if the entire United States could stop for a second and really put the spotlight on this issue and attempt to do the same? Cause even in this thread it amazes me how people think black or white. You're either pro or anti-gun. I mean, I dropped those stats and I'm already carrying the anti-gun sticker on my forehead. Why can't there be a middle area where the majority becomes pro-solving-a-problem and more importantly, pro-saving-precious-American-lives?
 
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seahawk
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 10:22 am

But then there are plenty laws in nearly every country that sound reckless to the outsider. I mean going fast on the German Autobahn is much more dangerous than a gun, yet there is much less pressure on Germany to stop this crazy law.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:22 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 133):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 132):So, let me get this straight - you're accusing the non-partisan CDC of fabricating data?

Find where the CDC said that and then we'll see who I'm accusing of what

In the interest of being completely forthcoming, here's the source of that stat I'd seen on countless pages:

//// http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_06.pdf ////

After having scoured this report, there are plenty of references to firearm-related deaths, however not one mention of gangs or gang-related activity. I absolutely stand corrected, mea culpa.

Here's some data I'd put more faith in:

https://www.nationalgangcenter.gov/Survey-Analysis/Measuring-the-Extent-of-Gang-Problems

Some takeaways:

The total number of gang homicides reported by respondents in the NYGS sample averaged nearly 2,000 annually from 2007 to 2012. During roughly the same time period (2007 to 2011), the FBI estimated, on average, more than 15,500 homicides across the United States (www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table-1). These estimates suggest that gang-related homicides typically accounted for around 13 percent of all homicides annually.


[Edited 2016-04-26 04:23:46]
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:31 am

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 134):
Yes, those stats include suicides and crime related deaths, but it also includes numbers of dead children and mass shootings, and the way you appear to skip over those groups that easy is exactly the worrisome point I'm trying to make.

Not at all; those numbers are staggering. I was addressing what the makeup of the numbers were, not assigning values to them.

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 134):
I asked the following question earlier, and I'll address it to you too. Wouldn't you agree with me, that even without the suicides and gang/crime related deaths, you still remain with numbers that are way too high for a first world country? Cause it's the playdown of a serious problem that kinda comes across as if you don't even care about the wasted lives of your fellow citizens.

I do care. And yes, those numbers are high. But having said that, I live in the real world, and in this world, the 2nd Amendment exists, along with 300 million firearms in the U.S.

The fact of the matter is that even if the 2nd Amendment were repealed, and gun ownership was made a federal offense, a large number - probably north of 100 million - of those firearms would still exist, the majority in the hands of career criminals.

So those guns aren't going away. Ever. No matter what laws are passed or amendments repealed.

That's why I firmly believe that training young people how to safely handle a firearm and respect it rather than misuse it would go a long way toward lowering the numbers of fatalities by firearm.

But will the problem ever go away entirely? Nope. Because there's no way to ensure every last gun is gone. Much like nuclear weapons, you can't put that genie back in the bottle.
 
Toni_
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:35 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 81):
No, the first responsibility is giving the people the right and capability to defend themselves, so that they can defend themselves not only against other people but also against the state. That is why every free man should have the right to carry a gun. In fact it is a duty not a right. And that is why the US is the only free country in the world. If you take this right away, it just becomes like Europe, where the people are the slaves of the state.
Quoting seahawk (Reply 135):
But then there are plenty laws in nearly every country that sound reckless to the outsider. I mean going fast on the German Autobahn is much more dangerous than a gun, yet there is much less pressure on Germany to stop this crazy law.

You know this might confuse people right?

And let's compare those apples with oranges. How exactly can the Autobahn be much more dangerous than a gun?
 
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seahawk
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 11:46 am

It is quite simple, with a gun it is difficult to injure more than one person by accident, with a car it is not. But the basic point is that every state has some laws were stupidity or illegal use will kill people.

I kind of understand the US pro gun section, because if you are responsible with your gun, it is no danger to anybody, but you would be punished for the idiots not being responsible or outright criminal.

Look at the UK, where now even knives are illegal.

http://www.gov.uk/buying-carrying-knives

That does not mean, I am against gun control, but people will always find ways to commit a crime or to commit suicide.
 
Toni_
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 12:53 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 137):
I do care. And yes, those numbers are high. But having said that, I live in the real world, and in this world, the 2nd Amendment exists, along with 300 million firearms in the U.S.

The fact of the matter is that even if the 2nd Amendment were repealed, and gun ownership was made a federal offense, a large number - probably north of 100 million - of those firearms would still exist, the majority in the hands of career criminals.

So those guns aren't going away. Ever. No matter what laws are passed or amendments repealed.

That's why I firmly believe that training young people how to safely handle a firearm and respect it rather than misuse it would go a long way toward lowering the numbers of fatalities by firearm.

But will the problem ever go away entirely? Nope. Because there's no way to ensure every last gun is gone. Much like nuclear weapons, you can't put that genie back in the bottle.

I fully agree that taking away all guns isn't realistic in today's world. I mean there's people in the States with enough firearms and ammunition to keep the entire Cape Verde army busy for weeks in case Senegal ever decided to invade. It's too late to swing back completely. But surely there must be things that can be done that could help lower the number of deaths.

How about the rules concerning the safety and loading of a gun? Would you agree that there still is room for change and improvement there? For example, you said you keep yours in a biometric safe. What if that was mandatory?

It's these kind of things that could help a great deal in my opinion. Clear and defined laws across the entire nation instead of this red hot mess:

Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_law...the_United_States_by_state

Firearm related matters that are often regulated by state or local laws include the following:

Some states and localities require that a person obtain a license or permit in order to purchase or possess firearms.
Some states and localities require that individual firearms be registered with the police or with another law enforcement agency.
All states allow some form of concealed carry, the carrying of a concealed firearm in public.
Many states allow some form of open carry, the carrying of an unconcealed firearm in public on one's person or in a vehicle.
Some states have state preemption for some or all gun laws, which means that only the state can legally regulate firearms. In other states, local governments can pass their own gun laws more restrictive than those of the state.
Some states and localities place additional restrictions on certain semi-automatic firearms that they have defined as assault weapons, or on magazines that can hold more than a certain number of rounds of ammunition.
NFA weapons are weapons that are heavily restricted at a federal level by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986. These include automatic firearms (such as machine guns), short-barreled shotguns, and short-barreled rifles. Some states and localities place additional restrictions on such weapons.
Some states have enacted castle doctrine or stand-your-ground laws, which provide a legal basis for individuals to use deadly force in self-defense in certain situations, without a duty to flee or retreat if possible.
In some states, peaceable journey laws give additional leeway for the possession of firearms by travelers who are passing through to another destination.
Some states require a background check of the buyer when a firearm is sold by a private party. (Federal law requires background checks for sales by licensed gun dealers, and for any interstate sales.)

These are just examples of laws concerning the owning, buying and carrying of a firearm. What do you think about rules and regulations about the safe keeping and maintainance of firearms and the loading of ammunition?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 139):
It is quite simple, with a gun it is difficult to injure more than one person by accident, with a car it is not. But the basic point is that every state has some laws were stupidity or illegal use will kill people.

I don't know how to reply to that. Like I said, I don't even know if you can compare the two just like that. I said apples to oranges, but it probably is more like apples to cauliflowers.

Quoting seahawk (Reply 139):
I kind of understand the US pro gun section, because if you are responsible with your gun, it is no danger to anybody, but you would be punished for the idiots not being responsible or outright criminal.

That's the point I'm trying to make. In my eyes responsibility shouldn't just stop there.

[Edited 2016-04-26 05:55:11]
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 4323
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting Toni_ (Reply 140):
Some states and localities require that individual firearms be registered with the police or with another law enforcement agency.

I know this was Wikipedia and not your direct quote but this bit intrigued me so I read up.

I thought it would be unconstitutional to have to register a firearm but it appears that some do (20-25%??). New York even requires that you pay a fee. Isn't that against the 5th amendment?

Fred
 
Scorpio
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:46 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 129):
Post hoc, ergo propter hoc arguments? C'mon now...

So no counterargument huh? Can't say I'm surprised.

Let's apply this silly thing called logic here. Which burglar is most likely to have a gun, and use it? A burglar in a country where few people have a gun, and therefore with a very small chance the house owner will be armed? Or a burglar in a country where lots and lots of people have guns, and there's a very good chance the owner will be armed?

Which burglar will be the most trigger-happy? Think before you answer.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 137):
and gun ownership was made a federal offense, a large number

Why do you people continue to insist on repeating this fallacy that the alternative being proposed by those against 'guns for everyone all the time' is 'guns for no-one ever'?

The flat-out refusal by several people on the right here to even acknowledge what the idea is that you're fighting against makes it increasingly hard to take you seriously. You're fighting an idea no-one here has put forth.
 
lapa_saab340
Posts: 398
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:22 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 142):
Let's apply this silly thing called logic here. Which burglar is most likely to have a gun, and use it? A burglar in a country where few people have a gun, and therefore with a very small chance the house owner will be armed? Or a burglar in a country where lots and lots of people have guns, and there's a very good chance the owner will be armed?

Which burglar will be the most trigger-happy? Think before you answer.

The burglar will think twice about breaking into a home in an area where owners are known to be armed. If I'm Mr Burglar, I will break into Scorpio's house instead, who will be more than happy to let me take his personal belongings. Make sure you stock up on beer as I'm likely to be thirsty and will want a drink also.
 
lapa_saab340
Posts: 398
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:29 pm

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 125):
And how many of those burglars went into the house with the INTENTION of killing the victims? And how many did so precisely because they shot at the first thing that moved, as a result of the fear that everyone can be armed in the US?

Please, can you be more ridiculous? Do you have a sixth sense that tells you what an intruder is doing breaking into your home? Or will you politely ask him? You have no idea if that person is armed, what they may be armed with, and what they are capable of. If you feel cowering into a corner and hoping for the best outcome is the answer, that's your choice. Other folks will elect to protect themselves and their loved ones if threatened. That does not mean shoot at the first thing that moves, as you're implying.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:35 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 128):
Actually, the opposite. Gun ownership has increased.

More guns, but fewer people owning them. The actual number of guns isn't a terrible useful statistic. Polls on gun-owning households are erratic, you can make a plausible argument they show a long-range downward trend.

In any case, it would be foolish to rule it out.
 
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seb146
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:53 pm

Quoting lapa_saab340 (Reply 143):
The burglar will think twice about breaking into a home in an area where owners are known to be armed.

How do you know which houses are gun owners? Would you really want to take that chance? Which is why most burglers hit houses they know have no one home.

Here is another responsible gun owner doing a responsible thing with her gun:

http://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/a...ct-herself-from-transgender-people

Because there are so many assaults by transgender people she feels she now has to carry a gun.

Keep in mind this was not an issue until a particular political group (which I catch hell for any time I mention them) decided it was an issue.

BTW, when I Googled "gun owner taking guns into bathroom" there were several pics that came up of random guns left in random bathrooms. You know: responsible gun owners and all that.
 
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RRTrent
Posts: 463
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:27 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 141):
New York even requires that you pay a fee. Isn't that against the 5th amendment?

New York's gun laws were challenged in 2012, and 2014 and deemed to be constitutional on both occasions. I'm open to correction on the years. Also if you want a concealed carry permit in NY, then you have to satisfy the authorities that you have a reason to carry a concealed weapon, i.e. your life may be in danger when in public. Sadly "I iz afraid of dem turban wearing terrorists" isn't a satisfactory reason.

If the same laws, or even California's laws were enacted across the US I can guarantee that gun crime and mass shootings would gradually reduce, and the sane rational folk who are responsible and have a basic knowledge of guns, and their dangers would have no problem obtaining the necessary permits, licenses or whatever it is they get.

I genuinely believe most "pro-gunners" (I made that up myself ) on this thread are decent and intelligent people, who would see any steps that reduce innocent deaths, while not removing or reducing any rights as reasonable. I also managed to spell constitutional three times in this post and didn't need spellcheck for any of them... I'm on a roll today
 
DiamondFlyer
Posts: 3576
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:39 pm

Quoting RRTrent (Reply 147):
I genuinely believe most "pro-gunners" (I made that up myself&nbsp Wink on this thread are decent and intelligent people, who would see any steps that reduce innocent deaths, while not removing or reducing any rights as reasonable. I also managed to spell constitutional three times in this post and didn't need spellcheck for any of them... I'm on a roll today

What part of "Shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Sure, I'm all for reducing innocent deaths, but only when following the words of the constitution. Unfortunately, this country has turned into a place that both parties will sell themselves out for money and votes. The Republicans are no friend of the 2A either. The hughes amendment and the ban on importation of Chinese firearms, both handed down by so called "republicans".

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 141):
I thought it would be unconstitutional to have to register a firearm but it appears that some do (20-25%??). New York even requires that you pay a fee. Isn't that against the 5th amendment?

Federal registration of firearms is illegal per the current law. States can, unfortunately, create their own scheme for registration. That said, at some point, some group will end up challenging the ATF for holding on to paper 4473s, as it could be argued that creates a federal registry of firearms.

-DiamondFlyer
 
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RRTrent
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RE: Yet Another US Shooting, 6 Dead.

Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:02 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 148):

What part of "Shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Sure, I'm all for reducing innocent deaths, but only when following the words of the constitution.

You missed the part where I noted that federal appeals court upheld New York's laws and deemed them to be constitutional. In fact the post from me which you quoted actually says "while NOT removing or reducing any rights". I put the not in caps to make it easier to see.

All I suggested was that if they were in place across the country, then it might be a start in reducing gun related deaths. I take it you don't agree which I can only respect as your opinion.

I do want to ask a question if you don't mind. Whats your position on a convicted criminal owning a gun? are his/her rights infringed because they are not allowed be in possession of a firearm?. Or on another level, can a 3 yr old child own a weapon as all US citizens have equal constitutional rights. So am I right in saying both children and criminals have a constitutional right to have an oozie stashed under their pillow?

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