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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Mon May 23, 2016 6:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 89):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 88):
Yet, when Dixie Chicks gave their opinion on Bush....

Did I miss something or did they get elected President

When they criticized Bush for the Iraq war, we were told how we should not ever criticize the president. They were called traitors and their careers were destroyed. For voicing their opinion. Yet, what has been happening over the past eight years?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 89):
And just because you have "Islamic" in front (The more correct term would probably be "Islamist") does not mean that all Muslims are terrorists.

Why, then, is this fact not being repeated? People, especially activists on the right, claim all Muslims are terrorists. Spitting at Muslims, ripping hijab off women, screaming obcenities at Muslims, burning down Sikh temples....

All because of this false notion the main stream media has been repeating that Islam=terrorism.

If that is the case, HB2 and "conversion therapy" and Matthew Shepperd are all cases of Christian terrorism. The "fear" of gays and trans people is all because "God said..." Therefore Christianity=terrorism.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 89):
If you don't want to describe ISIS as Islamic Terrorists, what would you call them?

Terrorists.
 
slider
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Mon May 23, 2016 6:42 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 95):
Ultimately we spared their country and allowed them to keep basic human dignity.

This is a key thing. Dignity. Obviously, the oft-repeated fallout from the Treaty of Versailles and the punitive peace in Germany set the stage for WWII, the rise of Hitler, etc, etc. We've all heard that a million times because it's true. The Marshall Plan, the Berlin Airlift, the rebuilding and retooling of Japan and much of Europe postwar was deliberately designed to preserve these countries' dignity. And given the nature of Japanese culture, saving face is huge.

I'm reminded of one of Victor Davis Hanson's *outstanding* books here. I had to look up the quote:

Quote:
“But wars—or the threat of war—at least put an end to American chattel slavery, Nazism, Fascism, Japanese militarism, and Soviet Communism. It is hard to think of any democracy—Afghan, American, Athenian, contemporary German, Iraqi, Italian, Japanese, ancient Theban—that was not an outcome of armed struggle and war.”
― Victor Davis Hanson, The Father of Us All: War and History, Ancient and Modern


War has a purpose. This world we live in has a component of intellectuals that seems to think war is obsolete. That'll never happen.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 98):
Nice to be able to finally (mostly) agree with you on something as you're always a helluva good writer.

Thank you sir...I appreciate that compliment. I always enjoy your perspectives on living in Japan and your cultural observations as well.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Mon May 23, 2016 9:26 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 100):
When they criticized Bush for the Iraq war, we were told how we should not ever criticize the president.

I have never heard ANYONE say any such thing. You are making shit up again.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 100):
They were called traitors and their careers were destroyed. For voicing their opinion.

Because they were complete dumbasses. They stated their opposition to the war - ok, fair enough - and then made a personal insult at the president. All of this would have completely been ignored if they had done that at the Grammys in LA. But A) They did it in England, which amplifies the effect, and B) The Dixie Chicks were a Country act!!! Didn't they know that the Country music fanbase tends to be very traditional and patriotic? Like I said, had they done it in the US it might not have been so bad, but to go to a foreign country and throw insults at the president - you can see how their fanbase saw that as a Lord Haw-Haw moment.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 100):
Why, then, is this fact not being repeated? People, especially activists on the right, claim all Muslims are terrorists.

Name one who has done so. Again you are making shit up.

There are a lot of problems with Islam. Islamic texts call for a lot of violence and injustice, and Muslims seem to have more difficulty than any other culture assimilating into non-muslim countries. Those are facts. And it's true that, at least over the past decade or two, 99% of all terrorists have been Muslim. But I have never, ever heard what you say, that all Muslims are terrorists.
 
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pu
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Mon May 23, 2016 11:07 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 63):
From a historical point of view you were correct and I guess most people agree using the bomb was necessary from a Military point of view.

I would have ordered the attack, too.

But I think it still is time to publicly acknowledge that the deliberate bombing of civilians was wrong and is wrong.

Your post highlights an interesting dichotomy and has implications for leadership and decision-making. Consider how we retroactively judge two important historical decisions: FDR/Truman using the bomb and Bush invading Iraq.

1. Using the bomb on Japan is perhaps justified by reasoning that based on the conditions, mindsets and all available resources of the day it was the best decision in terms of ending Imperial Japan's threat to America and the world.

Plus, it worked.

v.

2. Invading Iraq is perhaps justified by reasoning that based on the conditions, mindsets and all available resources of the day it was the best decision in terms of ending Saddam's threat to America and the world.

However, it did not work


...my point is that all this high minded talk of morality, loss of life, better options and so forth is really just window dressing and irrelevant when the only real consideration is whether it worked or not.

Quoting slider (Reply 101):
War has a purpose. This world we live in has a component of intellectuals that seems to think war is obsolete. That'll never happen.

It will happen when those who think war has a purpose are obsolete. The traditional source of global conflict, Europe, has finally been neutered and war between EU states is now unthinkable, even impossible. Strong, established democracies never go to war with one another. This European/USA peacedom could expand to the rest of the world, possibly.




Pu.
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 3:52 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
nd then made a personal insult at the president.

This has been going on toward Obama since November 2008. Why is it okay to hurl insults at Obama but not Bush?
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 4:14 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 104):
This has been going on toward Obama since November 2008. Why is it okay to hurl insults at Obama but not Bush?

Bush was the subject of much more and viscious abuse than Obama. Obama has it easy, because any attacks gets a response of "Racist!"

And no, if an American entertainer goes to another country and hurls insults at Obama, i don't consider that OK.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 5:37 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 98):

If you'll kindly see reply 68, there's a tiny problem with that narrative. Nagasaki didn't actually convince the militarists to surrender either - they were already highly factionalized. The Emperor revealed surrender intent on August 10th, but rogue elements attempted a coup three nights later to prevent surrender. Everything in Japan is done via concensus, and they never had it till the coup failed.

It got the emperor to surrender along with a majority of Japanese leadership. It was enough to tip the balance of power that the coup was unsuccessful. It's also notable that an allied pilot under torture had told the Japanese that the Allies had 100 more nuclear weapons. That led in no small part to the surrender.

And it's a good thing because the only remaining option was tantamount to wholesale genocide.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):

Bush was the subject of much more and viscious abuse than Obama. Obama has it easy, because any attacks gets a response of "Racist!"

Your memory is factually incorrect, sir.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 7:40 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
Bush was the subject of much more and viscious abuse than Obama. Obama has it easy, because any attacks gets a response of "Racist!"

I'd like to visit the alternate reality in which you reside, just for a short while. That's pure crazy talk there, golly gee...
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 7:47 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
And no, if an American entertainer goes to another country and hurls insults at Obama, i don't consider that OK.

So you support the arrest and trial of Ted Nuget for crimes against the president.

Even though no calls for that have been made from the "patriots" on the right.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
Bush was the subject of much more and viscious abuse than Obama.

Lying us into war, spending with no real source of income, blaming religion... yeah, that was all Obama's doing. Bush had nothing to do with any of that. What with all those WMDs found in Iraq and all the war paid for and all Iraqis who greeted us as liberators and all that. Sure. Keep living in that bubble.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
Obama has it easy, because any attacks gets a response of "Racist!"

Well, no. Only the right wing media starts attacking the attackers with that. If you actually read history or read news from outside the echo chamber, you will see a very different story.

There is a racist element that Trump has brought out, but, ever since Obama was elected, the narrative from the MSM has been "blame Obama."
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 7:51 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 106):
Your memory is factually incorrect, sir.
Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 107):
I'd like to visit the alternate reality in which you reside, just for a short while. That's pure crazy talk there, golly gee...


Oh ye of short memory... Stuff like the pics below were weekly occurrences around the country, if not daily near the White House. Obama never got that sort of vitriol for that long or that often.

 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 8:02 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
So you support the arrest and trial of Ted Nuget for crimes against the president.

No. Why? Did I ever say that the Dixie Chicks should have been arrested? No. Their fans punished them. If Nugents' fans get pissed off at something he says, he'd deserve it. Entertainers are in a business where it is unwise to piss off those who would buy your products.

Seb, you are one of the most dishonest people I have ever known. All you do is take people's comments out of context, or simply invent stuff. You are not an asset to any debate or this site.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 108):
Lying us into war, spending with no real source of income, blaming religion... yeah, that was all Obama's doing.

Funny enough, yes.

Lying us into war (check - Libya, for example)
spending with no real source of income (check - doubled the national debt under his watch - and in spite of military spending share falling to the lowest point since the 1930s)
blaming religion (check - blamed Chistianity for the Crusades, Slavery, Jim Crow at an Easter event, no less)
 
coolian2
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 8:04 am

Ooh, two pictures. Nice.

Most of what Bush took was that he was dopey. It was "lol he's dumb". It was not the actual nastiness Obama took before day one.

The day you convince anyone about hating the "nigger President" vs pretty reasonable calls about GWB being dense being equal will be a sad one.

Live in your dumb as shit echo chamber.

[Edited 2016-05-24 01:05:57]
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 8:07 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 111):
Most of what Bush took was that he was dopey. It was "lol he's dumb". It was not the actual nastiness Obama took before day one.

Bullshit. The Hitler comparisons and war crimes charges were constant.

And a short stop at Google can find you many thousands of such pictures.
 
coolian2
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 10:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
Bullshit. The Hitler comparisons and war crimes charges were constant.

Okay, if you say so. Admittedly, that's a lie or at the least, a huge exaggeration on your behalf.

He was noted as a moron, and anything more was not leveled at him.
 
aloges
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 11:02 am

Quoting coolian2 (Reply 113):
He was noted as a moron, and anything more was not leveled at him.

While Mr. Falk's (Dreadnought) idea that compared to Bush, Obama somehow "has it easy" is, of course, questionable at best, he does have a point concerning the accusations against GWB: the extralegal detentions at Guantánamo, the torture in the Abu Ghraib prison and a few other select niceties were indeed laid at his doorstep. Which was only fair because he was, legally, the Commander in Chief even if he really was only the puppet whose strings the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld pulled.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 12:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
blaming religion (check - blamed Chistianity for the Crusades, Slavery, Jim Crow at an Easter event, no less)

You mean he told the truth? The horror! 
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 12:23 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 114):
Which was only fair because he was, legally, the Commander in Chief even if he really was only the puppet whose strings the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld pulled.

The biggest sign that this is true is that Bush and his inner circle started pushing back against Cheney in the latter half of his 2nd term, especially after the Valerie Plame debacle.
 
slider
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 2:18 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 103):
It will happen when those who think war has a purpose are obsolete.

I would kindly remind you that your comment goes against thousands of years of actual history, defies the very human nature at play, and is woefully naive. There are far WORSE things than war, truth be told.

Quoting Pu (Reply 103):
The traditional source of global conflict, Europe, has finally been neutered and war between EU states is now unthinkable, even impossible. Strong, established democracies never go to war with one another. This European/USA peacedom could expand to the rest of the world, possibly.

You're saying this in the context of looking at the past few decades. Post Cold War, present EU. If European history alone has proven anything, it's that it is always fluid, always changing, and you cannot simply wipe away the factions, regionalism, values, cultures and passions by having a verbose pan-European "constitution" that already shows signs of fatal flaws.

However, if you are saying that the West--as we generally would refer to it--would not likely go to war with one another, I'd say there is less of a chance, but would never say never. Plenty of democratic states have gone at it.

This peacedom you speak of if but a blip on the radar; I admire your wishfulness and certainly wish and pray for peace as well, but everything is temporal. Perspective here is important.
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 4:12 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
No. Why? Did I ever say that the Dixie Chicks should have been arrested? No.

Did they ever call for the outright murder of elected officials? No.

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/10/...assassination-president-obama.html

Yet he is still roaming free.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
Their fans punished them.

The MSM and their record company did. The MSM started screaming about "how dare they question the president!" and the record company saw there was outrage (based on the crying from MSM) and punished them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
you are one of the most dishonest people I have ever known.

For expressing my view on issues? This is how we "Make America Great Again" by calling everyone else names. Thanks. Thanks a lot.

This closed minded thinking is the main reason I stay here. To expose them for who they are. I feel bad that you can not accept other people's world view. I really do. Because that is what makes the rest of us look bad.

EDIT:

I have had a few minutes to let this marinate and I have to ask: Did something bad happen to you recently? You used to be more respectful of other people's opinions. I used to enjoy reading what you had to say. Now, it seems, you and BMI are one-in-the-same. What happened?

[Edited 2016-05-24 09:26:02]
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 5:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):

Oh ye of short memory... Stuff like the pics below were weekly occurrences around the country, if not daily near the White House. Obama never got that sort of vitriol for that long or that often.

YOU were openly questioning why he wouldn't release his birth certificate. When he had.

Don't make me go searching for those posts.
 
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pu
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 8:55 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 117):
defies the very human nature at play

The progress of human society is precisely the gradual control or even renunciation of basic "human nature".

If you have kids, you know they are born cheats, liars and thieves. But socialisation overcomes their human nature. Progress slowly overcomes our many faults and even the tendency towards violence and war is surmountable. It starts with breaking down ideas of national differences and even national identity. Most European countries simply lack the capacity to make war.

Quoting slider (Reply 117):
Plenty of democratic states have gone at it.

No.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Obama never got that sort of vitriol for that long or that often

Is it possible Bush sparked more outrage for good reasons? Look at his approval rating in 2008 v. Obama today.

Do Obama's policies rise to the devastation of Bush's wars and the financial meltdown?






Pu.

[Edited 2016-05-24 14:01:29]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Tue May 24, 2016 10:47 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Obama never got that sort of vitriol for that long or that often.

Because generally speaking, he's been a bloody good President

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 110):
spending share falling to the lowest point since the 1930s)

This phenomena is happening ALL over the world. Its just part of the economic cycle most countries now find themselves faced with. Nothing to do with Obama.

Quoting aloges (Reply 114):
the extralegal detentions at Guantánamo, the torture in the Abu Ghraib prison and a few other select niceties were indeed laid at his doorstep. Which was only fair because he was, legally, the Commander in Chief even if he really was only the puppet whose strings the likes of Cheney and Rumsfeld pulled.

Exactly. And Obama is stymied at every more to address the issue and close the place down.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Wed May 25, 2016 8:01 am

Quoting slider (Reply 117):
Plenty of democratic states have gone at it.

Not against other democratic states. Unfortunately, Democracy is under pressure in Europe. Germany is still stable, despite the AFD. But Poland, Hungary, and Turkey are warning examples.
 
slider
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Wed May 25, 2016 3:41 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 120):
Most European countries simply lack the capacity to make war.

The US in the 1930s had a feeble military that couldn't have stopped a Cub Scout pack at its borders very well. War capacity is a fluid thing and not indicative of too much. Besides, Neville Chamberlain lives in infamy because he HAD to make "preace in our time" because Great Britain had to arm up. History is the best teacher, as always.

Quoting Pu (Reply 120):
No.
Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 122):
Not against other democratic states.

Um, yeah.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_between_democracies

Gosh, I loathe using Wiki as a reference, but they hit it here pretty well. Now I'm sure you'll want to parse the semantics of what constitutes "democratic" here, but my overarching point is that democratically oriented and/or influenced states have had wars for thousands of years and that just because RIGHT NOW, as you look around in Europe you don't see it happening, doesn't mean it won't or can't.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 3:30 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Thread starter):
The White House has emphasized this visit is not about apologies or WWII, but reflections on the horrors of WMD and a possible future without them.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-36258866
Needless to say, while this is indeed a historic moment, the cynics among us don't expect much to actually come from efforts to rid the world of WMD.

I think its politically motivated and a form of grandstanding to be honest. I don't think BHO wants a nuclear free world at all and like most presidents, he just doesnt want the other guy to have them.

While exaggerating to the entire planet on Iran's capabilities and intent on WMD, he totally, completely and utterly ignored Israel's stockpile of ~130 nuclear weapons. It was pretty clear to me during the Iran Deal negotiations and in the technical details that Iran, in fact was not seeking nor had a program to race to nuclear weapon. What they were building was a large and hardened infrastructure capable of producing a weapon if the US attempted regime change from either Afghanistan or Iraq.

A nuclear free world would mean Israel wouldnt be allowed nukes either. It isnt really a viable nation state without nukes or some other form of WMD which BHO surely knows. Unless of course everyone forgets religion, but in that instance there isnt a need for a Jewish state to begin with.
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 5:15 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 121):
Because generally speaking, he's been a bloody good Presiden

meh.... He is not great. Just good. I am just sick and tired of "stop beating up the president!!!" under one and "let's skewer this bastard!!!" under the other without seeing any irony whatsoever.

Every politician NEEDS to be held accountable by we the people. Every election cycle is our revolution. We need to take that back. Not main stream media. Not pundits. Not phone polls. Us. Americans. We. The. People.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 124):
I don't think BHO wants a nuclear free world at all and like most presidents, he just doesnt want the other guy to have them.

Which explains why Obama keeps to the nuclear proliferation agreement. Because he wants "us" to have more than "them."
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 6:39 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 124):
While exaggerating to the entire planet on Iran's capabilities and intent on WMD, he totally, completely and utterly ignored Israel's stockpile of ~130 nuclear weapons.

And the reason Iran want nukes, at least privately without coming right out and saying as much, is because Israel has them.

And I cant blame then either !
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 6:47 am

I was hoping that Mr. Obama was going to get to visit Fukushima, to make his apology for the United States contribution to Global Warming, which must have been an underlying cause of the earthquake and the resulting tsunami.
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 8:12 am

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 127):
I was hoping that

*golf clap*

Well played, sir. Well played.
 
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akiss20
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 12:39 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 94):
A real statesman, which Obama is decidedly not, would issue a speech framed up something like this:

Once enemies, we are now allies. War is hell. Each of our nations still struggles with the history-altering course of actions each of our nations took during WWII. Families torn apart, people killed. The USA was proud to help rebuild Japan to make a postwar future bright and prosperous for each of us. There are many lessons to be learned from the causation of the war, and we hope to never repeat missteps of the past….

Text of his speech in Hiroshima

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/28/wo...peech-in-hiroshima-japan.html?_r=0

"Why do we come to this place, to Hiroshima? We come to ponder a terrible force unleashed in a not-so-distant past. We come to mourn the dead, including over 100,000 Japanese men, women and children, thousands of Koreans, a dozen Americans held prisoner."

"In the span of a few years, some 60 million people would die. Men, women, children, no different than us. Shot, beaten, marched, bombed, jailed, starved, gassed to death. There are many sites around the world that chronicle this war, memorials that tell stories of courage and heroism, graves and empty camps that echo of unspeakable depravity.

Yet in the image of a mushroom cloud that rose into these skies, we are most starkly reminded of humanity’s core contradiction. How the very spark that marks us as a species, our thoughts, our imagination, our language, our toolmaking, our ability to set ourselves apart from nature and bend it to our will — those very things also give us the capacity for unmatched destruction."

"That is why we come to this place. We stand here in the middle of this city and force ourselves to imagine the moment the bomb fell. We force ourselves to feel the dread of children confused by what they see. We listen to a silent cry. We remember all the innocents killed across the arc of that terrible war and the wars that came before and the wars that would follow."

"And since that fateful day, we have made choices that give us hope. The United States and Japan have forged not only an alliance but a friendship that has won far more for our people than we could ever claim through war. The nations of Europe built a union that replaced battlefields with bonds of commerce and democracy. Oppressed people and nations won liberation. An international community established institutions and treaties that work to avoid war and aspire to restrict and roll back and ultimately eliminate the existence of nuclear weapons."

"Those who died, they are like us. Ordinary people understand this, I think. They do not want more war. They would rather that the wonders of science be focused on improving life and not eliminating it. When the choices made by nations, when the choices made by leaders, reflect this simple wisdom, then the lesson of Hiroshima is done."

Pretty much hit every one of your talking points. Not a statesman? Seems like a pretty good statesman to me.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 2:27 pm

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 129):
Pretty much hit every one of your talking points. Not a statesman? Seems like a pretty good statesman to me.

Everyone that decided they hated the speech weeks before it happened will still hate it, and still call it an apology tour, even if Obama literally repeated all their points. 
 
wingman
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 2:31 pm

The GOP hasn't put anyone close to his caliber up in a general election or a primary in close to two generations now.
 
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akiss20
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 3:07 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 130):

Everyone that decided they hated the speech weeks before it happened will still hate it, and still call it an apology tour, even if Obama literally repeated all their points.

Most likely, but I invite everyone to read the speech in full. Regardless of your beliefs on Obama, I find it hard to believe you will not find it moving. I just re-read it and it is truly a great speech. Well done to Obama and well done to his speech writers.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 4:27 pm

Ironic that the first POTUS to visit Hiroshima was born near Pearl Harbour which was attacked in December 1941 forcing US entry into WW2 and lead up to dropping the atom bomb on Hiroshima.

[Edited 2016-05-27 09:28:54]
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 4:49 pm

It was a stunning speech, I dare say one of his finest.

PM Abe looked like an awkward buffoon both with the wreath-laying and his feverish attempts to shake hands with hibakusha after POTUS. Nice remarks acknowledging US military lives lost though...
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 5:00 pm

I've never been a fan of President Obama's politics, but the man is a great orator, and this speech was a perfect example of him at the top of his game in that department.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 7:36 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 130):
Everyone that decided they hated the speech weeks before it happened will still hate it, and still call it an apology tour, even if Obama literally repeated all their points.

BS. I and others simply said that he had better not apologize, as he has been wont to do. And he didn't - the speech was good.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):
It was a stunning speech, I dare say one of his finest.
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 135):

I've never been a fan of President Obama's politics, but the man is a great orator, and this speech was a perfect example of him at the top of his game in that department.

That's a little over the top. Did he say anything that was profound or new or insightful? It was a good speech from a politician - meaning he did not say anything substantive good or bad.
 
Flighty
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 7:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 109):
Oh ye of short memory... Stuff like the pics below were weekly occurrences around the country,

My favorite from that era was:

"Bush / Cheney: Asses of Evil"  
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 11:14 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 136):

BS. I and others simply said that he had better not apologize, as he has been wont to do. And he didn't - the speech was good.


Did Dreadnought just kinda sorta praise Mr. Obama?

It must be June 31 today or something.
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Fri May 27, 2016 11:50 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 134):

It was a stunning speech, I dare say one of his finest.

It was a well written speech and he obviously delivered it with a lot of emotion and I think genuinely sympathizes with the extraordinary loss of life.

But...

The speeches are written by staffers, the delivery is rehearsed and his actions on WMD and drone strikes often totally contradicts what he is saying. Even under his Administration, the US is planning to pour billions into upgrading the nuclear triad and has essentially ignored any demands on India, Pakistan and Israeli stockpiles of weapons. He alleged that Iran was a "Rogue Regime" while ignoring that his enemy actually had signed NPT and was being inspected while 3 of his own allies didn't sign it and weren't being inspected by the IAEA.

So, yeah its all BS. And why hasn't the US at least explained why they didn't drop the first bomb offshore or an a smaller city? Seems a little uncivilized to go for one of the largest and oldest cities right off the bat.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 2:06 am

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 139):
why hasn't the US at least explained why they didn't drop the first bomb offshore or an a smaller city

This has been debated for a long time, but the main reasons were with just two weapons available to be deployed (at that time, anyway) it made little sense to use one as a demonstration. Secondly, the Japanese government had already decided to fight on because they, like the U.S. military, had predicted that 1 million American soldiers would die should they try to invade Japan, and they felt that the American people would not be prepared to take this loss. The Japanese saw the Americans as cowards. So if the bomb was dropped in an empty piece of land, or offshore somewhere, it would have likely affirmed the Japanese belief that the Americans were not brave enough to destroy Japan.
 
BMI727
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 3:07 am

He was doing pretty good up until here:

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 129):
ultimately eliminate the existence of nuclear weapons."

This is not the goal. The goal is to make sure your adversaries do not have nuclear weapons, or other WMDs. You can do that by not being adversarial, or by cutting a deal to keep them from having such things, or by blowing their ability to get those weapons to bits.

Overall, his speech was pretty decent.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 139):
And why hasn't the US at least explained why they didn't drop the first bomb offshore or an a smaller city? Seems a little uncivilized to go for one of the largest and oldest cities right off the bat.

Because it's a war and you have to go for the kill.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 3:00 pm

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 81):
As I said, PM Abe is already trying to quietly renounce the peace provisions the US placed in the Japanese Constitution. That would have been a far more overriding reason to cancel than some hibakusha pining for attention.

Japan is a good ally of the US. But, if they want to "go it alone", then fine. We'll pull out all military from Japan.

China is already moving to be the dominate force in that part of the world, and not ONE US life should be spent in defending Japan from China's inevitable over-reach in that part of the world. NOT ONE!

Pull out the troops from S. Korea as well. We need to protect the US homeland, more than protect some far flung nation in Asia!!!

Japan is being penny-wise and pound-foolish to spurn the US military presence, the ONLY thing keeping China at bay.

So, let them stew in their own pot, I say.

Just so F'ng tired of being the World's Policeman.

As for the POTUS's call to end the world of nukes.... that'll be happening right after climate change and cancer is elimanated, I suspect...
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 3:08 pm

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 142):
We need to protect the US homeland

From whom? Was there a declaration of war issued by a country we had not heard about?

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 142):
Just so F'ng tired of being the World's Policeman.

Many people are. Problem is, there is this notion that America must "be strong" and by not policing the world and having military around the world and invading countries on a whim, some leaders think that makes America look weak.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 4:46 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 141):

Overall, his speech was pretty decent.

OMG STAHP. I'm going to have a stroke!

Meanwhile, a meme is circulating criticizing Mr. Obama for hugging a Hiroshima survivor but not hugging a Pearl Harbor survivor or a Bataan Death March survivor. I shouldn't be surprised. The man got criticized during the 2008 election for ordering dijon mustard on a burger.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 4:51 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
Was there a declaration of war issued by a country we had not heard about?

Undeclared - Mexico/Central America and Iran

Declared - ISIL
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 6:34 pm

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 145):

Undeclared - Mexico/Central America and Iran

LOLwut? How is Mexico in an "undeclared war" with the USA?
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 7:01 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 143):
Many people are. Problem is, there is this notion that America must "be strong" and by not policing the world and having military around the world and invading countries on a whim, some leaders think that makes America look weak.
Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 145):
Undeclared - Mexico/Central America and Iran

Yeah, I mean that's kind of the problem. Iran has built 4 empires and has conquered not less than 48% of the world's population at it's peak. Allowing some bozo from far away, who happens to be aligned with Jewish Israel and Sunni Wahhabi Saudi Arabia, to be the police force is a guaranteed path for confrontation. It doesn't really matter how moderate the other regime is except to the extent the US thinks they can outsource policing.
 
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seb146
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 10:39 pm

Quoting DIRECTFLT (Reply 145):
ISIL

That is not a country.

Also, we are not at war with Mexico, Central America (also not a country) and Iran. People cry about illegal immigration from Central America and Mexico because there is this idea that tens of thousands stream across the boarder every half hour.

People are afraid of Iran because and, therefore, hate Iran. How many nations has Iran invaded and occupied in the past 20 years? They talk big, but I think the ayatollahs know their people will revolt against them if they do something stupid and other nations will not stand for them to do something stupid, either.
 
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ER757
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RE: Potus To Make First State Visit To Hiroshima 5/27

Sat May 28, 2016 10:51 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 144):
The man got criticized during the 2008 election for ordering dijon mustard on a burger.

Well, that's worthy of scorn, but being that he's from Chicago, I can promise he'd never commit the unforgivable sin of putting ketchup on a hotdog though.   

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