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cpd
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 2:33 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 49):

Nothing wrong with commentating, but at least maintain some semblance of neutrality. Their pro-Hamilton stance is a bit blergh.

They're British - what do you expect. Like Australian commentators worship Daniel Ricciardo.

As for Hamilton and Rosberg, perhaps the both of them need a few years driving for a back-marker team where just the ability to finish a race is a miracle. They might drive with a degree more caution in future.

[Edited 2016-05-16 19:39:31]
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 3:29 am

Quoting B747forever (Reply 42):
By the time his front wing gets into that space it is already too small for Hamilton to get in there and pass Rosberg safely.

so once he is in the gap the gap is too small for him to be in? Is the gap a tardis?

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 49):
In any case, based on the picture in reply 43 it's clear that Hamilton's right front tyre has touched the white line demarcating the track boundary.

not even close, still a tyres width and the line which is another tyres width itself.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 49):
Even if Rosberg chose to straighten up, there's no way he can complete the overtake without two tyres off the track on the grass.

so Rosbergs only has to comply with the rules is it's easy enough for him? It's his responsibility to make sure that he does not drive another car off he road, if that means he has to not manoeuvre like that then so be it.

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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 4:09 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 51):

Whatever the debate is the stewards decision says it all.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 51):
It's his responsibility to make sure that he does not drive another car off he road, if that means he has to not manoeuvre like that then so be it.

First corner of the first lap, US GP 2015, Circuit of the Americas, guess who ran who off the road? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekrB8lK5DI4

I would say now they're even.
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Ncfc99
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 5:33 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 47):
Rosberg was too aggressive IMO. I don't really see what Hamilton is supposed to have done wrong- if you see a gap and you're going far quicker than the car in front, you have to go for it.

I figured Rosberg might have been distracted, but in the post-race he said he "knew exactly what was going on" which implies he knew where Hamilton's car was and didn't leave him the car's width he's entitled to.

Agreed. Rosberg knew what was going on and knew he'd screwed up and made a rash hot headed move to defend his position.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 47):
Having said that, I'm glad Rosberg didn't get a penalty. I think unless the offence is horrendous, first lap incidents should really just be let go. There's far too much interference as it is.

Whilst I agree to an extent, these regulations are for safety. Imagine the hideous accident that would have followed if Hamilton had stood his ground on the track, Rosberg would have been turned right into the wall and the pack would have been on top of them immediately.

Quoting legoguy (Reply 48):
The Sky replays show Rosberg adjusting a dial on the steering wheel exiting Turn 3. Upon exiting turn 3, whilst still looking at his steering wheel and pressing a button, he appears to cross to the right hand side of the track without looking in his right hand mirror, which, combined with the fact that Rosberg likely knew he had a speed disadvantage, is enough for me to lean the blame towards Rosberg.

Rosberg knew he'd made the mistake, Hamilton knew he had speed as he'd seen the light on Rosbergs car. In that situation there is no other outcome than a passing manouvere, Which Rosberg is allowed to block safely, not run Hamilton off the road.

Quoting legoguy (Reply 48):
Rosbergs demeanour afterwards was also noteworthy. Whenever asked who he apportioned blame to, he was only too happy to continuously repeat that he agreed with the stewards ruling.

Agreed. Hamiltons was distinctly different as he knew where the blame lay.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 49):
Under whose definition?


The FIA's

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 6:44 am

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 53):
Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his

And when Rosberg started to defend, there was no significant portion of Hamilton's car alongside him. In fact the only time Hamilton's car was significantly beside Rosberg was when he was on the grass.
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flipdewaf
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 7:43 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 54):
And when Rosberg started to defend

Not sure why you keep mentioning what happened when he started to defend, the regulations have nothing to do with the start of the defence.

I did believe that the stewards had the decision correct but after review of more evidence I think that indeed the FIA bottled it. It was all good fun to watch though but I imagine all you who think that everyone should race more gently you have the 72 sighting laps interluded with a pit stop they call Monaco next, You'll enjoy that.

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scbriml
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 7:58 am

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
IIRC, when a significant portion of the overtaking car is beside the car in front, it has to be given a cars width to complete the move safely.

Per the rules.   

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
I can't understand why the cars width regulation did not apply here, hence they bottled it.

I'm still convinced if this wasn't an 'all Mercedes' incident, Rosberg would have been punished.

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
Why go around that way when you expect a cars width.

Plus trying to pass on the left leaves Hamilton on the outside approaching the next right-hand bend. The vast majority of overtakes happen on the inside and that's where the larger gap was when Hamilton started his move.

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
Look at the picture in reply 43, front wheel next to rear wheel is deemed a significant protion.

Exactly!   

Quoting legoguy (Reply 48):
The Sky replays show Rosberg adjusting a dial on the steering wheel exiting Turn 3. Upon exiting turn 3, whilst still looking at his steering wheel and pressing a button, he appears to cross to the right hand side of the track without looking in his right hand mirror, which, combined with the fact that Rosberg likely knew he had a speed disadvantage, is enough for me to lean the blame towards Rosberg.

Yes, it was smart detective work by Anthony Davidson.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 49):
Under whose definition?

The FIA's! Or do you think we're making this stuff up?   

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 54):
In fact the only time Hamilton's car was significantly beside Rosberg was when he was on the grass.

According to the FIA's definition, your image in reply 43 CLEARLY shows Hamilton was entitled to be left a car's width on the track. Period.
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Aesma
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 8:09 am

Rosberg's car was so slow it was a bit like a stricken car (and he was fiddling madly with his settings). Defending your position in that case is not a good idea, it's bound to cause accidents.

Quoting cpd (Reply 50):
They might drive with a degree more caution in future.

What fun would that be ?
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cpd
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 10:13 am

The two warring drivers frankly need their backsides kicked!

What the heck are Niki Lauda, Dieter Zetsche and others there doing? If it were John Wyer running that show, the drivers would have the fear of god put into them. He wouldn't stand for this garbage from those two spoilt brats.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 10:54 am

Quoting cpd (Reply 58):

maybe they should just leave it like a qualifying time trial, that way they can remove all the fundanger.

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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 12:20 pm

Go Max!

See you all in Monaco!

        
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 4:26 pm

I'm a bit late to the discussion  

Congrats to Verstappen. Unbelievable to win a race at 18. I was passing my driving test at his age, not winning F1 races  

Today is test day at Barcelona. Here is the rear wing of Williams:

http://d2d0b2rxqzh1q5.cloudfront.net/sv/3.65/dir/00f/image/00f3a81891ce2b071952db85908387f9.jpg

Haas is testing a new chassis, trying to get rid of issues that have been plaguing Grosjean's car since China.

Renault is testing its new upgraded engine, that should make its debut in Montreal. Ocon finished 10th of the afternoon session, 3.3 seconds off the pace.
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zckls04
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 4:41 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 49):
In any case, based on the picture in reply 43 it's clear that Hamilton's right front tyre has touched the white line demarcating the track boundary. Even if Rosberg chose to straighten up, there's no way he can complete the overtake without two tyres off the track on the grass.

If Rosberg straightens up there would be room. Hamilton's tyre isn't even on the white line yet, and the line is a couple of feet wide. He also has a whole track's worth of width on the left hand side.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 57):
Rosberg's car was so slow it was a bit like a stricken car (and he was fiddling madly with his settings). Defending your position in that case is not a good idea, it's bound to cause accidents.

It was a desperate attempt to make up for a mistake.

And let's not forget this was a mistake which would not have happened if the drivers weren't now in charge of their own start procedures. The whole point of that rule was to put more responsibility in the hands of the drivers instead of having the engineers do everything for them.

What are we saying now? That we want drivers to be free to make mistakes, but if everybody could just form an orderly queue behind them while they fix their settings that would be just fine and dandy?

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 52):
First corner of the first lap, US GP 2015, Circuit of the Americas, guess who ran who off the road? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekrB8lK5DI4

I would say now they're even.

Hamilton ran Rosberg off the road on that occasion. So what's your point? I don't see how that absolves Rosberg of blame for doing the same thing.

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 55):
I imagine all you who think that everyone should race more gently you have the 72 sighting laps interluded with a pit stop they call Monaco next, You'll enjoy that.

Yeah, god forbid we actually go racing once in a while.
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Ncfc99
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 5:45 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 54):
And when Rosberg started to defend, there was no significant portion of Hamilton's car alongside him.

You can defend when the attacking driver is behind. Once the attacking driver has a significant part of his car beside yours, you cannot force him off the road irrespective of where he was when you started to defend.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 54):
In fact the only time Hamilton's car was significantly beside Rosberg was when he was on the grass.

Have you looked at the picture in rely 43? Lets try this one more time-

20.4 Any driver defending his position on a straight, and before any braking area, may use the full width of the track during his first move, provided no significant portion of the car attempting to pass is alongside his. For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

As the picture shows, Hamiltons front wheel is next to Rosbergs rear wheel. As per the regulation above, a front wing and front wheel is deemed a significant part of the car.
 
photopilot
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 6:49 pm

This whole Rosberg / Hamilton blame game argument is a complete waste of time.

The FACT is that the F1 Race Stewards (who are all past or present professional race drivers) looked at all the facts, talked to both drivers, etc, and made the determination that this was a racing incident and no blame was to be apportioned.
What the heck gives any of the amateur rule interpreters on this forum the right to think they could possibly know more and make a better determination than these professionals did?

As for me, I think both drivers were partially right and also partially wrong in their action. But in the heat of combat mistakes are made and there are only split seconds to get it right..... or wrong.

I'll be more interested in seeing how Mercedes handles the situation and whether any team orders come forward from this.

Looking forward to Monaco.
 
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zckls04
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 8:03 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 64):
What the heck gives any of the amateur rule interpreters on this forum the right to think they could possibly know more and make a better determination than these professionals did?

I don't understand this attitude. Part of the joy of spectating sports is analyzing them. You don't see people saying "well, the ball clearly crossed the line but the referee has much more experience than us so we should defer to his judgment in disallowing the goal".

That to me is a dull and lifeless way to spectate. Opinions are good. Opinions are fun.
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Aesma
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Tue May 17, 2016 10:07 pm

I agree with the fact that there were no penalties, as neither driver caused the accident deliberately, and they both were punished enough by being out of the race.

It doesn't mean I put the blame equally on both drivers.
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cpd
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 61):
Today is test day at Barcelona. Here is the rear wing of Williams:

Reminds me of the turbo F1 cars after they lost ground-effect with those monster multi-level, multi-element large scale rear wings. Crude looking devices trying to gather back the lost downforce at the expense of massive aero-drag. But hey, you had a turbo and lots of power, so why not, there is enough power there.

Kind of interesting to see this idea return again.

[Edited 2016-05-17 21:34:34]
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 4:34 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 62):
Hamilton ran Rosberg off the road on that occasion. So what's your point? I don't see how that absolves Rosberg of blame for doing the same thing.

Problem is back then nobody criticized Hamilton the way Rosberg's being criticized now. Why the double standards? Even worse, that collision basically determined the championship in favour of Hamilton.

Quoting cpd (Reply 58):
What the heck are Niki Lauda, Dieter Zetsche and others there doing? If it were John Wyer running that show, the drivers would have the fear of god put into them. He wouldn't stand for this garbage from those two spoilt brats.

To be fair, at least with their squabbles we can have an exciting season. The more they take each other off, the more drama is on air, and the better the racing is.
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zckls04
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 5:02 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 68):
Problem is back then nobody criticized Hamilton the way Rosberg's being criticized now. Why the double standards?

I think your memory might be a little selective there. I recall many people criticizing Hamilton for that move.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 68):
Even worse, that collision basically determined the championship in favour of Hamilton.

Hamilton finished the season 59 points ahead of Rosberg, so no, it didn't. By the time Austin came along, Hamilton had a 66 point lead in the championship. The championship was effectively already won.

I think this statement alone calls into question your impartiality.
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mad99
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:13 am

Hamilton should have lifted but he kept his boot in it and crashed. Rosberg closed the door and as the pic shows above even before he had is front wheels equal to Ros's rears he was out of room.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:26 am

Quoting mad99 (Reply 70):
shows

which pictures are you looking at?

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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:35 am

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 69):
Hamilton finished the season 59 points ahead of Rosberg, so no, it didn't. By the time Austin came along, Hamilton had a 66 point lead in the championship. The championship was effectively already won.

With 4 races & 100 points to play with, no, the championship wasn't effectively won at that point. If Rosberg had won Austin & Hamilton was second the gap would have closed to 59 with 75 points still available.

As for impartiality, you're right. Never liked Hamilton, never thought highly of him. And all those gushing about how he's the "next Senna" makes me barf. Perhaps a Piquet but definitely not a Senna. But in this case my impartiality does not affect the facts - Rosberg is not 100% at fault, no matter how hard the Hamilton brigade tries to pin the blame solely on Rosberg.

My advice for Hamilton is simple. Practice your starts.
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scbriml
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:52 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 72):
Practice your starts.

There wasn't a problem with Hamilton's start in Spain, he said so himself. However, the long run to turn one enabled Rosberg to get a good slipstream and pass him.
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Stealthz
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 10:54 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 64):
The FACT is that the F1 Race Stewards (who are all past or present professional race drivers)

Well no they aren't-
T.Mayer, R.Novak, M.Donnelly
I believe M Donnelly is a former professional driver
T.Mayer is not, he is the son of Teddy Mayer one of the founders of McLaren, he has also been a race entrepreneur but NOT a professional driver.
R.Novak, don't know but have not heard of him as a driver.
The FIA's obsessive secrecy(much worse since the little gnome Todt became dictator) prevents finding out much more.

Why is almost all information on the FIA F1 site "denied access"to those that pay their bills?
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zckls04
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 2:32 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 72):
With 4 races & 100 points to play with, no, the championship wasn't effectively won at that point. If Rosberg had won Austin & Hamilton was second the gap would have closed to 59 with 75 points still available.

Oh come on, that's stretching credibility too far. Rosberg would have needed to win the last few races and have Hamilton score no more than 15 points. The championship was over.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 72):
But in this case my impartiality does not affect the facts

The facts are that Rosberg contravened a clearly stated rule in the rule book, as many have demonstrated to you. Anything further is a matter of opinion on your part. Calling something you say a "fact" doesn't make it so.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 72):
My advice for Hamilton is simple. Practice your starts.

I'm going to guess he's already doing that.
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photopilot
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:25 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 75):
The facts are that Rosberg contravened a clearly stated rule in the rule book, as many have demonstrated to you. Anything further is a matter of opinion on your part. Calling something you say a "fact" doesn't make it so.

Sage advice, no matter how many time you repeat it, it doesn't alter the fact that the Race Stewards disagree with you and they ultimately made the decision.
"Car 6 moved to the right to defend his position, as is his right under Art 27.7 of the Sporting regulations. Simultaneously Car 44 as the significantly faster car with, at that time, apparent space on the inside, moved to make the pass. Art 27.7 requires the leading driver to leave room, if there is a "significant portion" of the car attempting to pass alongside. Car 44 had a portion of his front wing inside Car 6 small fractions of a second prior to Car 44 having to leave the right side of the track to avoid an initial collision, which may have led him to believe he had the right to space on the right. Once on the grass on the side of the track Car 44 was no longer in control of the situation."

The Stewards clearly didn't feel that enough of Hamilton's car was alongside Rosberg for a long enough period of time to affect their decision. Good enough for me.
 
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zckls04
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:42 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 76):
Sage advice, no matter how many time you repeat it, it doesn't alter the fact that the Race Stewards disagree with you and they ultimately made the decision.

Did I at any point suggest it did alter that fact? I'm really not sure what point you're trying to make. If you don't wish to discuss it then you're under no obligation to.
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GrahamHill
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:44 pm

Quoting cpd (Reply 67):
Reminds me of the turbo F1 cars after they lost ground-effect with those monster multi-level, multi-element large scale rear wings.

Me too!

Quoting Stealthz (Reply 74):
I believe M Donnelly is a former professional driver

Martin Donnelly is mostly known for the terrible accident he had in Spain, some 26 years ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hSF6_4UDTo

He never fully recovered from it, and stopped his career in F1 after that.
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Ncfc99
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 7:57 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 72):
And all those gushing about how he's the "next Senna" makes me barf.

I've been robust in my defence of Hamilton (not because it was Hamilton, because I believe Rosberg made a stupid, aggressive move that could have caused a bad accident, and because so many people are blaming Hamilton and I cannot for the life of me, understand why) but this we will agree on. The last driver I was rooting for to win the title was Button. Much more class tham Hamilton, when Hamilton wins i'm......meh.

Quoting Stealthz (Reply 74):
I believe M Donnelly is a former professional driver

Martin Donnelly used to drive for Lotus in F1 until he had an enormous crash at Estoril IIRC. He broke at least one leg, probably both, along with other injuries. The front of the car came apart and he was thrown across the track still attached to his seat.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 76):
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 75):
The facts are that Rosberg contravened a clearly stated rule in the rule book, as many have demonstrated to you. Anything further is a matter of opinion on your part. Calling something you say a "fact" doesn't make it so.

Sage advice, no matter how many time you repeat it, it doesn't alter the fact that the Race Stewards disagree with you and they ultimately made the decision.

I'd like to know why the rule was not enforced. Running another driver of the track at high speed, and no action taken? As I said upthread, I think they bottled it or Mercedes team managers asked them to let them deal with it within the team. You're right, it dosen't matter how many times we repeat it, it will not change the facts of the stewards decision.
 
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scbriml
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 9:03 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 76):
it doesn't alter the fact that the Race Stewards disagree with you and they ultimately made the decision.

Because the stewards are always spot-on in their assessments and subsequent actions?   
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photopilot
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 9:05 pm

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 79):
I'd like to know why the rule was not enforced. Running another driver of the track at high speed, and no action taken?

It's controversial for sure which is why I believe the Stewards didn't choose to apportion blame.
Rosberg, when he initiated the move was completely within his right to do so.
Hamilton was also completely within his right to make the move to the right to pass.
I think what surprised everyone was the rate of closure and the rate that the gap disappeared.
Also, as the rules state "a significant portion" that in of itself is a gut-call to make as to what constitutes that portion.

Heck, a little online reading finds WDC Jackie Stewart fully in support of Rosberg and laying the blame on Hamilton.
Likewise, further reading finds WDC Jacques Villeneuve completely opposite and laying all the blame on Rosberg.

If two World Champion drivers can't agree........ that shows that this specific situation is one that likely falls into a somewhat large grey area of interpretation. That various factions are interpreting this to the best light of their particular favourite driver is clear.

Onwards to Monaco..... and we'll see what happens next. I'm interested to see how Pirelli's new Ultrasoft tyre works on the streets of the municipality.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 9:51 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 81):
Also, as the rules state "a significant portion" that in of itself is a gut-call to make as to what constitutes that portion.

Otis defined clearly in the rules what is meant by significant, this was beyond that definition.

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photopilot
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 10:09 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 82):
Otis defined clearly in the rules what is meant by significant, this was beyond that definition.

Then by all means clearly explain why the Race Stewards did not agree with you nor apportion blame? Surely they must have had valid reasons to make the determination that they did.
or
Let the conspiracy theories abound......  
 
flipdewaf
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 10:15 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 83):

no idea why they didn't follow their own rules, that's why this debate continues I guess.

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B747forever
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 80):
Because the stewards are always spot-on in their assessments and subsequent actions?   

Then FIA should instead get the experts from Skysports and A.net...
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TheFlyingDisk
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 10:39 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 82):

Otis defined clearly in the rules what is meant by significant, this was beyond that definition.

But they didn't define at what point does the car significance rule apply. I would think in this case the stewards interpreted this rule to apply when the move to defend started - which means that Rosberg was in the clear because Hamilton was nowhere significant when Rosberg moved to the right.

Blame the ambiguity of the rules.
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B747forever
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 10:51 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 86):
Hamilton was nowhere significant when Rosberg moved to the right.

Yep, that is evident from the 2 photos in this thread. Long before Hamilton is close Rosbergs car, he is already moving towards the right to close that gap. In the 2nd photo you can see how small the gap Hamilton is trying to push through is.
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Wed May 18, 2016 11:29 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 86):
Blame the ambiguity of the rules.

  
Bingo!!!! That's it in a nutshell. This particular incident fell within a grey area, hence no blame is apportioned.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 87):
Long before Hamilton is close Rosbergs car, he is already moving towards the right to close that gap.

     
 
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 3:14 am

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 86):
But they didn't define at what point does the car significance rule apply.

from rule 20.4:For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 86):
Blame the ambiguity of the rules

ignoring some of the rules will make it ambiguous.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 87):
Yep, that is evident from the 2 photos in this thread

indeed Hamilton did not have any significant portion alongside when he started to move to the right but by the time Hamilton does have a significant portion of his car alongside as can be seen from the photos and the definition of 'significant portion' he should then have stopped that move and allowed Hamilton the space required by the rules. The photo in reply 43 demonstrates the significant portion.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 87):
Long before Hamilton is close Rosbergs car

what was happening before the incident is of very little importance, Nico might have had a smoothie for breakfast, you might be interested.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 87):
he is already moving towards the right to close that gap.

this is irrelevant as the rule regards position And not movement.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 87):
In the 2nd photo you can see how small the gap Hamilton is trying to push through is.

but the rule states that the gap should be a cars width and in that gap is Hamiltons car, which makes the gap at least a cars width. I'd agree that in the picture no rule has been broken, rosberg has still left enough room, it is the subsequent movement that breakes the rule.

Maybe the FIA decided not to use the rules, they don't seem like ones for doing it by the rules if it doesn't suit them. The poison dwarf never does.

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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 4:57 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 89):
from rule 20.4:For the avoidance of doubt, if any part of the front wing of the car attempting to pass is alongside the rear wheel of the car in front this will be deemed to be a 'significant portion'.

You're missing the point. The rule didn't say that if a driver is moving to defend his line, he has to stop if a significant portion of the car behind is beside him (notwithstanding the fact that he would hardly be able to see whether the front wing of the car behind is parallel to his rear tyre). Fact remains, Rosberg started his defence before Hamilton got significantly close & at no point did the rule state that he has to stop.
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 6:45 am

Quoting photopilot (Reply 81):
Also, as the rules state "a significant portion" that in of itself is a gut-call to make as to what constitutes that portion.

No it's not, it's CLEARLY defined within the rules. It even uses the words "For the avoidance of doubt".   

Quoting photopilot (Reply 83):
Then by all means clearly explain why the Race Stewards did not agree with you nor apportion blame?

We can't and that's why some of us disagree with the decision.

Quoting B747forever (Reply 85):
Then FIA should instead get the experts from Skysports and A.net...

They couldn't do any worse than some of the clown-ass decisions that race stewards have made in the past, and will make again. I'll remind you of this the next time you disagree with one of their decisions.   
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 9:59 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 39):
He was in a 'position' (because thats what counts, movement is moot) where he had his front wing and front wheels beyond the back of Rosbergs car and was still on the road, therefore at that point there was enough space but Rosberg kept moving. The issue of what constitutes a significant portion of the car is what is actually at stake here, it isnt clear cut hence why I believe no punishment for either driver.
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 39):
its about position so movement is irrelevant.
Quoting photopilot (Reply 44):
If Nico's move gives Hamilton 1/10th of 1% doubt in his mind the next time Hamilton's behind and needs to pass, then that will also affect Hamilton's mind game. Whatever you think of Rosberg's move, by ruthlessly closing the door he's clearly shown Hamilton that he will not give way at any cost. That will have to play on Hamilton's mind thru the rest of the season.
Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
This opinion does not interfere with my opinion that Rosberg in this case was in the wrong.
Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
If the car overtaking has a a significant portion of the car beside you, you are not supposed to drive him off the road, which is what Rosberg did.

Funny now none of the Hambros never bother to bring up any of this when Lewis was forcing Nico off the track at Suzuka, COTA etc.  

Lewis has apologised:
http://www.eurosport.com/formula-1/s...ith-rosberg_sto5573460/story.shtml

Jackie Stewart doesn't seem too impressed:
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/may/16/jackie-stewart-mercedes-should-fine-lewis-hamilton-crash-nico-rosberg-f1-spanish-grand-prix

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 46):
Why go around that way when you expect a cars width.

Because you can see that the gap is as good as closed already?

Quoting cpd (Reply 50):
They're British - what do you expect.

An expectation of unbiasedness isn't really much to ask.

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 53):
Agreed. Rosberg knew what was going on and knew he'd screwed up and made a rash hot headed move to defend his position.

The hot headed one was HAM who was embarrassed at yet again being overtaken at the first corner.

Quoting Ncfc99 (Reply 53):
Which Rosberg is allowed to block safely, not run Hamilton off the road.

The stewards found that his blocking maneuver was legitimate.

Quoting cpd (Reply 58):
If it were John Wyer running that show, the drivers would have the fear of god put into them. He wouldn't stand for this garbage from those two spoilt brats.

     

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 61):
Today is test day at Barcelona. Here is the rear wing of Williams:

ooooh that does look very cool. Are these permitted under 2017 regulations?

Some more bits from testing:

A McLaren is Flo-Vis paint:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CiwJpF1WsAE8q_K.jpg:large

Renault's engine upgrade seems to be meeting expectations:
http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/da...of-upgraded-renault-engine-738172/

Some testing times:

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ba...r-ferrari-737714/?tp%5B0%5D=10&s=1

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ba...ll-on-top-738017/?tp%5B0%5D=10&s=1

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 61):
Ocon finished 10th of the afternoon session, 3.3 seconds off the pace.

He then got replaced by Pascal Wehrlein for the second day. (probably due to being tired after so many laps)

Quoting photopilot (Reply 64):
This whole Rosberg / Hamilton blame game argument is a complete waste of time.

The FACT is that the F1 Race Stewards (who are all past or present professional race drivers) looked at all the facts, talked to both drivers, etc, and made the determination that this was a racing incident and no blame was to be apportioned.

  

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 68):
Problem is back then nobody criticized Hamilton the way Rosberg's being criticized now. Why the double standards? Even worse, that collision basically determined the championship in favour of Hamilton.

      This. The HAM supporters have no problem with him running ROS off the track.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 76):
The Stewards clearly didn't feel that enough of Hamilton's car was alongside Rosberg for a long enough period of time to affect their decision. Good enough for me.

  

Quoting scbriml (Reply 80):
Because the stewards are always spot-on in their assessments and subsequent actions?

Put on your tinfoil hats: the conspiracy against HAM keeps gets deeper!  
Quoting B747forever (Reply 85):
Then FIA should instead get the experts from Skysports and A.net...

  
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wolbo
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 10:34 am

Meanwhile a nice summary by respected F1 journalist Peter Windsor on the real big story of this Grand Prix.

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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 11:40 am

Interesting read from a technical standpoint: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/b...witch-error-cause-first-lap-crash/

I was listening to a racing podcast earlier, where the editor of Racecar Engineering fleshed it out a bit, and while it (the podast) clearly had a pro-British (ie. pro-Hamilton) bias, I thought some interesting points were made.
 
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 8:02 pm

When all is said and done, Rosberg is probably relieved Hamilton did what he did for 3 reasons...

1. It maintains the points gap between them.

2. It makes Hamilton the bad guy and that will mess with his head.

3. It takes the focus off Rosberg's own stupid 'wrong-settings' mistake.
It's better to ask a stupid question during training, rather than make a REALLY stupid mistake later on!
 
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 8:07 pm

Quoting TheFlyingDisk (Reply 90):
They couldn't do any worse than some of the clown-ass decisions that race stewards have made in the past, and will make again. I'll remind you of this the next time you disagree with one of their decisions.   

Haha, I am sure that will come back and haunt me  
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Thu May 19, 2016 9:34 pm

Danny Ric and KMAG are getting a new Renault Power Unit with ~30 more horsepower for Monaco.

http://www.autobild.de/artikel/forme...renault-mit-zusatz-ps-9431765.html
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Fri May 20, 2016 1:48 pm

Quoting ZKOJQ (Reply 97):
Danny Ric and KMAG are getting a new Renault Power Unit with ~30 more horsepower for Monaco.

Nice! Though Monaco shouldn't be the track that will reveal its full potential, I'm sure the drivers are happy about it.

Talking about engine upgrade, Honda said they would introduce one for either Monaco or Montreal: http://www.autosport.com/news/report...plans-upgrade-for-monaco-or-canada
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RE: F1 -- Spanish GP

Sat May 21, 2016 12:59 pm

Nothing to do with F1, but a pretty nasty crash in the Europan F3 series at the Red Bull Ring earlier today, and arguably one of the scariest situations to be in as a driver (slow car in the middle of dust and debris): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY6GzpSCafg

Fortunately word is that all involved are okay.

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