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EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 9:23 am

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EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In The UK (by OA260 Apr 20 2016 in Non Aviation)
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Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 11:05 am

Quote fromNav30 post #200 preceding thread :
"Normandy (and the rest of France) was occupied by Nazi Germany at the time - so 'invasion' was the only word that fitted........."
A very good example on how reasoning can be twisted :
I would have thought that, when a friend's / ally's / associate's /...etc...'s country is occupied by a common enemy, landing on his / her territory would amount to a *liberation* from the occupiying foe, wouldn't it ? .
But invasion it was : chase the Germans in order to take their place ( see AMGOT above).

That invasion was full of generous, self-righteous ideas from the US presidency, in particular to do away with France's colonies... I will never understand how intelligent people across the Manche never realised that they had plenty more colonies than France and they looked no better in FDR's eyes than the French ones...

Took them Suez 1956 to start realising... that's called US treatment of their closest, special ally   
Sixty years later exactly, the same false interpretation of the value of that alliance is behind the brexit.
Fifty-first state of the US you won't be.
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 11:18 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Took them Suez 1956 to start realising... that's called US treatment of their closest, special ally   
Sixty years later exactly, the same false interpretation of the value of that alliance is behind the brexit.
Fifty-first state of the US you won't be.

If you recall Obama's recent comments, the US doesn't want the UK to leave the EU. Of course the US acts in the US's best interests, and the US prefers to have "their special friend" on the inside. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that is.

Going back to basics though, the bottom line is that the UK wasn't in to from the beginning, so maybe you could say we were playing second fiddle from day one. And, back then, the British people were told that it was about trade and trade only, and that is what they voted for - a trading bloc. Government papers released a few years ago under the 30 year rule proved that the British government knew that it was actually about far far more, but hid this from the people fearing a "no" vote. The Germans knew; the French knew; the Brits didn't. So, in summary, from almost day one, the UK's membership of the EEC/EC/EU was based on falsehoods.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
JJJ
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 11:33 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
Going back to basics though, the bottom line is that the UK wasn't in to from the beginning, so maybe you could say we were playing second fiddle from day one. And, back then, the British people were told that it was about trade and trade only, and that is what they voted for - a trading bloc. Government papers released a few years ago under the 30 year rule proved that the British government knew that it was actually about far far more, but hid this from the people fearing a "no" vote. The Germans knew; the French knew; the Brits didn't. So, in summary, from almost day one, the UK's membership of the EEC/EC/EU was based on falsehoods.

Well but that's between the British voter and the British government of the day (not that us continentals were much better informed by our own governments, tho). Everyone on board the EEC knew what the final goal was.

The fact is, the UK has been from the very beginning demanding unique treatment in just about everything. And usually getting it so just about everyone on the other side of the channel sees this as another chapter in the "we're special" soap opera.

If it doesn't work anymore. By all means leave. At least that way your politicians will finally have to get rid of "the EU made us do it" excuse. I'd love our own to do it.
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 11:36 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):

You have an anti-US chip on your shoulder that is completely irrelevant here. This is not an 'us vs them' equation, and I cannot imagine why you want to turn it into such.

Many of your comments are defensive of France (when nobody is criticising France), casting shame on the US (when the US has nothing to do with the matter), and invoking equally irrelevant and equally sanctimonious criticism of the UK. What motivates that? Do you simply have a dislike and bias against the dominant players in the English-speaking world?

You can rest comfortably knowing that a Brexit will probably not happen this time around, even if it is in every party's best interest. Between the multinationals and large banks who want access to the markets no matter the political cost, and the foretelling of doom and disaster by you lot in other countries, the British people will most likely choose the devil they know. Then you can begin planning how to intimidate the next series of countries who will inevitably decide to hold their own referenda.
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 1:36 pm

Quoting SB744 (Reply 4):

You have an anti-US chip on your shoulder

No, I certainly do not. I was responding to the usual French bashing exercise by the usual suspects. No more - but certainly not less.
Allies should not hide behind diplomatic niceties. I'm all for honesty... that's why I'm still lurking in the corridors of A.net.

Quoting SB744 (Reply 4):

Many of your comments are defensive of France

Apparently your reading skills are not up to the English standards of this board.
I agree with you :! the subject of this thread is pure British internal affairs. The rest of the Europeans, mainly the Germans and the French get dragged into it, and it wasn't our choice.
Defensive of France ? Why is it a sin when being defensive of Britain is or seems like a patriotic quality that would / should end up in your "independence" ?

Quoting SB744 (Reply 4):
the dominant players in the English-speaking world?

Oh ! there are some dominant players, and I suspect some dominated ones ? Right ? Have you asked the Australians, the Canadians.... about their thoughts on the subject ?

Quoting SB744 (Reply 4):

You can rest comfortably knowing that a Brexit will probably not happen this time around,

What a shame if it doesn't happen !       All this energy and effort that could have been a lot more useful to try and reform the EU from the interior...  

Quoting SB744 (Reply 4):
the foretelling of doom and disaster by you lot in other countries, the British people will most likely choose the devil they know. Then you can begin planning how to intimidate the next series of countries who will inevitably decide to hold their own referenda.

Us lot ? I couldn't care a fig on what you will decide on June 23rd !
Intimidate ? Fanatics are, by definition, un-intimidateable...
As far as Europe goes, I only advocate an
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 2:01 pm

FR will do anything for publicity  
.
http://i955.photobucket.com/albums/ae40/PhilipOA260/fr2_zpssg6alsfa.jpg
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 2:52 pm

For some reason, I lost the end of my latest post. here it is :

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
As far as Europe goes, I only advocate an

... à-la-carte membership :
- those who want further integration
- those who'd rather wait
- those wo want out and should be immediately allowed to do so, without any prior negociation.
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 3:19 pm

Quoting JJJ (Reply 3):
At least that way your politicians will finally have to get rid of "the EU made us do it" excuse. I'd love our own to do it.

Absolutely. I'm under no illusions how much "unpleasant/problematic" legislation has been passed under the "EU rules" story.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
All this energy and effort that could have been a lot more useful to try and reform the EU from the interior..

This is where I have to disagree. There are 28 countries (and more to come) in the EU. No-one wants reform. MEPs don't, the Commission certainly doesn't. There are too many vested interests in the gravy train. The Common Agricultural Policy comes foremost to mind.

Cameron stuck his toe in the water recently with his attempt to change benefit payments, and got, almost, precisely nothing at all out of it.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 8:29 pm

pihero answer posting 195

[.in 1943 ? that was the time when they were still singing "Nelly the elephant" on the road to Mandalay ( that's in Burma, btw ). The only Brits who took on the Japanese in Malaya in 1943 were the POWs in Japanese camps... you're nearly two years short on the chronology of the war.

I would just like to remind you that the 14th army which was fighting the Japanese in Burma in 1944 and 45 consisted of 13 division which were 3 West African Division , 2 British Division , and by far the largest 8 Indian Division,

At that time a British Army division could consist of between 10,000 to 20,000 men so we will assume they both had some 15,000 men so a total of 30,000 men . Now we can all see that the Indian army made up the largest contingent, but it also shows that the British were there sweating it out, a fact you seem to have ignored.
They also fought before 1944 along with other commonwealth troops but the results were chequered. Please be more considerate to very brave men of all nationalities, so no the POWs were not the only British troops in Malay in1943
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the same reply I believe you insinuated that Dunkirk was an utter defeat, and there is no arguing that it was a defeat
and we would never have got that many men off if it was not for the defence put up by the French 1st Army, which is absolutely true, but within the total evacuation of 338,000 men a proportion of that number were French soldiers.I have not got the split at hand now ,but I am sure you will tell me. Now let me add the men of the French Army were very brave men, in many cases only surrendering when their ammunition ran out , but they did it to give their allies a chance.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Again in one of your replies you asked why the British did not send troop back to France after Dunkirk, well they did by sending the 1st Armoured Division , and the Canadian 1st Infantry Division,to bolster those already there, but it was of no avail, as after the French request for an armistice on the 17th June 1940, the troops had to be evacuated. This was done under the little known " Operation Ariel" where the 2nd allied force was evacuated from France during the period 15 to 25 of June. During this operation some 192,000 allied troops were evacuated from ports on the North and west French coastline so you can see the allies still had a not insignificant number of troops in France after Dunkirk The breakdown of these forces is as follows:-

British and commonwealth---- 144.000 , French------18,000, Polish------24,0000 , Czech---5,0000,
and last but not least Belgian --163.

Now I am sure you will say more revisionist history, but these seem to be the accept facts by the international world

littlevc10

So you can see the allies did not run out on France , but had to leave once the Armistice talks had started
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 9:45 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):

FR will do anything for publicity

Gideon and MoL. What a pair of c**ts.
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wingman
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 10:20 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
If you recall Obama's recent comments, the US doesn't want the UK to leave the EU. Of course the US acts in the US's best interests, and the US prefers to have "their special friend" on the inside. You can draw your own conclusions as to why that is.

You're right in one regard, the US acts in its own best interest, like every other country out there. But in this case that interest aligns well with most other countries' interests, it being the known stability that the EU brings to the world economic order. I don't often get to quote a monumental jack-ass like Donald Rumsfeld but the UK leaving the EU represents a known unknown in terms of financial impact on one important economy in the world (your own) and another on an absolutely vital bloc in the EU. It's crap timing and that alone should put some fear in just enough Brits to quash this thing.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 16, 2016 10:32 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
so no the POWs were not the only British troops in Malay in1943

Since when was Burma part of Malaya ?
...and you call me revisionist ?

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
the 14th army which was fighting the Japanese in Burma in 1944 and 45

So even then , they weren't exactly there in 1943, were they ?

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
Now let me add the men of the French Army were very brave men, in many cases only surrendering when their ammunition ran out , but they did it to give their allies a chance.

At last someone acknowledges that fact.
Thanks

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
. During this operation some 192,000 allied troops were evacuated from ports on the North and west French coastline so you can see the allies still had a not insignificant number of troops in France after Dunkirk

They only were there either because they hadn't been able to reach Dunkerque or because they were sent to France ( Gal Brooke, IIRC ) to protect the new evacuation operations ( as far as I know, they were two of them, not one ).
Their strategic, or even only tactical value was nil as the decision to withdraw was taken by Churchill on the 14 June.
(Once again, your chronology doesn't match nor explain the chain of events )

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
British and commonwealth---- 144.000 , French------18,000, Polish------24,0000 , Czech---5,0000,
and last but not least Belgian --163.

These figures seem to be correct. I have no problem with them.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
we can all see that the Indian army made up the largest contingent, but it also shows that the British were there sweating it out, a fact you seem to have ignored.

No, I have not. I was only responding to Nav' assertion that trhere was some involvement of British forces in Malaya in 1943. I demonstrated, and so you did, that it was patently untrue.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
Please be more considerate to very brave men of all nationalities,

I certainly am more than you are.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):

Going back to basics though, the bottom line is that the UK wasn't in from the beginning, so maybe you could say we were playing second fiddle from day one.

Another disingenuous fallacy : powers in the EEC, then the EU, had never been reserved for the original six. If second fiddle you were, it was all by your own will and decision.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):
Government papers released a few years ago under the 30 year rule proved that the British government knew that it was actually about far far more, but hid this from the people fearing a "no" vote.

I really do feel for you, 1/- being on that damned EU that has unelected civil servants( as if yours were...   and 2/- ruled by lying politicians...
I can see now you have a problem.
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vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 12:10 am

Their strategic, or even only tactical value was nil as the decision to withdraw was taken by Churchill on the 14 June.
(Once again, your chronology doesn't match nor explain the chain of events )
[/quote]

Well the 51st Highland Division fought itself to a standstill in northern France, before it was forced to surrender to Rommel,and this was after Dunkirk.but you ignore things like this.

No I did not get the chronology wrong just did not state all the dates but here goes

13 th June Churchill Flew to a meeting of the "Anglo-French Supreme War Council " at Tours where he suggested a "Franco-British Union", but this was rejected , with some in the French Delegation saying " they would prefer to live under the German Jackboot than be a British Dominion" [An agreement by the way supported by your hero DeGaulle ] With this the French Prime Minister Reynaud resigned on the 14 th and informed Churchill that the French government were looking for terms with the Germans.The British did not have much choice either leave or be captured, so decided on an evacuation on the !4th June, commencing on the 15th June under ferocious attacks from the Luftwaffe which amongst other things sunk a ship with 4000 people on board all of whom were lost

An interesting side line to this, is that Reynaud was taken prisoner by the French Government {Vichy ] and handed over to the Germans who interned him until the end of the war.

, >Since when was Burma part of Malaya ?
...and you call me revisionist ?
;
Well in this country Burma and Malaya were all part of the same campaign, both when we lost them and when we regained them. Note not the same country but the same campaign, just like the Liberation of France Belgium and the Netherlands , 3 different countries but the same campaign

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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 10:07 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 12):
I can see now you have a problem.

With respect, you're appearing somewhat aggressive here. This is a discussion forum, and it would be a very boring forum if we all agreed on everything. I'm merely expressing my viewpoint.

Quoting wingman (Reply 11):
known unknown

It is indeed a known unknown. It's so unknown that no-one has any real clue what would actually change if we voted to leave in June. I also have no reason to believe that the British economy would take a nosedive.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 11:39 am

Quoting vc10 (Reply 13):
Well in this country Burma and Malaya were all part of the same campaign, both when we lost them and when we regained them.

Too easy : The subject was about ..."also taking on and defeating the Japanese in Malaya................
"... in 1943 ... ( and he was there )...
The Burma campaign started in .... 1944... (the campaign of Malaya even later ).

Quoting vc10 (Reply 13):

13 th June Churchill Flew to a meeting of the "Anglo-French Supreme War Council " at Tours where he suggested a "Franco-British Union", but this was rejected , with some in the French Delegation saying " they would prefer to live under the German Jackboot than be a British Dominion" [An agreement by the way supported by your hero DeGaulle ]

I'm afraid you have to provide a lot more proof and pieces of evidence than just hearsay on that subject.
Then I expect apologies for libel.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 13):
(Once again, your chronology doesn't match nor explain the chain of events )

What is of note is that when facing an argument, I provide dates, notes.... to back my writing.
Something you certainly do not.
Prove that I was in error on the Churchill timeline.

Quoting vc10 (Reply 13):
the 51st Highland Division fought itself to a standstill in northern France, before it was forced to surrender to Rommel,and this was after Dunkirk. but you ignore things like this.

1/- It was in Normandy, at St Valery-en-Caux
2/- They surrendered on the 12 June as part of the troops attached to a French army ( the 10th IIRC). That's two days before Churchill decided on the withdrawal.
I have to thank you for making me study that era I am really interested in ( one might say it's one of my favourite studies ).
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vc10
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 12:38 pm

If you wish to deny the historical facts then that is OK , but there is no point continuing this discussion on that basis

littlevc10
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 1:04 pm

Quoting vc10 (Reply 16):

If you wish to deny the historical facts then that is OK , but there is no point continuing this discussion on that basis

So I understand that you are unable to back / prove your assertion... and you invented the gist of the exchanges of the whole meeting...

I expected as much from you.

That's fine by me, too. You're showing the level of honesty in the *leave the EU* camp.

A very interesting lesson for us outsiders.
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TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 1:55 pm

Comparing the EU with Hitler? Is Johnson completely out of his mind?

This is really a new all-time low for the Brexit campaign.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 2:29 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
They surrendered on the 12 June as part of the troops attached to a French army ( the 10th IIRC). That's two days before Churchill decided on the withdrawal.

Which withdrawal?

Operation Dynamo - Evacuation of Dunkirk - 27th May - 4th June 1940.

Operation Cycle - Evacuation of Allied Troops from Le Harve 4th-12th June 1940.

Operation Ariel (or Aerial) - Evacuation of Allied forces and civilians from ports in western France from 15–25 June 1940

Orders were received by the BEF commander Lord Gort from the newly appointed Prime Minister Winston Churchill to carry out a prompt evacuation of the stranded troops on the port of Dunkirk.

The formulation of the ‘Operation Dynamo’ commenced on May 20. Vice Admiral Bertram Ramsay was heading the Dynamo formulation committee.

Famous statement by General Alan Brooke went down in the pages of history as the most correct description of the situation faced by the British at the time, he said ‘Nothing but a miracle can save the BEF now’.
Initial estimations stated that evacuation of only 45,000 stranded troops was possible within a time frame of 48 hours. Instead the Operation turned out to be the largest and most successful evacuation operation in military history.

A total of 338,226 stranded troops were successfully evacuated under intense enemy bombing, along with the British soldiers, 140,000 Polish, French and Belgian troops were also rescued.

51st Highland Division was mobilised again in 1939 for deployment to France in January 1940 as part of the B.E.F. After the initial operations, as the B.E.F. retired on Dunkirk and the Division formed a defensive perimeter around St. Valéry.

The success of the Operation Dynamo was partly because of the successful rear-guard executed by the 51stHighland Division.
Before the Operation had commenced all units were ordered to continue their fight to the last man standing.

British Prime Minister hailed the ‘Operation Dynamo’ as a miracle, however he made it very clear that ‘wars are not won by evacuations’.

Operation Cycle:

Operation Cycle was the code name for the evacuation of British and Allied troops from Havre on 10-13 June 1940. Although much of the BEF escaped from Dunkirk, the 1st Armoured and 51st (Highland) Divisions were trapped south of the Somme when the Germans reached Abbeville. They then fought in the Battle of France, the second phase of the German campaign in the west, which began on 5 June.

After some heavy fighting on the Somme the Germans broke through the French lines. The Highland Division, along with part of the French army, began to head for the port of Havre, sending an advance party to secure the port.

The evacuation was authorised on 9 June. Admiral Sir William James, the commander-in-chief at Portsmouth, dispatched the destroyer leader HMS Codrington, six British and two Canadian destroyers, a number of smaller warships and a fleet of transport ships to Havre, where they were to rendezvous early in the morning of 10 June.

After a twenty four hour delay the evacuation got underway on 11 June. On that day the personnel ship Brugeswas destroyed by German bombing. Admiral James requested support from the RAF, and on the next day British fighters began to patrol over the harbour. That night saw the most men evacuated, and by dawn on 13 June the evacuation was complete. A total of 11,059 men were evacuated from Havre, 9,000 of whom were taken directly to Cherbourg.

The rest of the Highland Division was unable to reach Havre, after German troops reached the coast close to St Valéry-en-Caux. The retreating allied troops were forced to take up a position from St Valéry-en-Caux east to Veules. Admiral James was able to organise yet another evacuation fleet, but a thick fog prevented most of this fleet from reaching the right beaches. On the night of 10-11 June 2,137 British and 1,184 French troops were rescued from the eastern end of the defended perimeter, at Veules, but later on 11 June the remaining troops were forced to surrender. Amongst them were 6,000 men from the Highland Division, who became the only large British formation to reach the coast but not be evacuated.

Operation Aerial

Operation Aerial was the code name given to the evacuation of British and Allied troops from the ports of north west France between 15 and 25 June 1940. When the German tanks reached the coast at Abbeville on 20 May they split the B.E.F. in two. While most of the fighting men were trapped north of the German armies, the 1st Armoured and 51st (Highland) Divisions had been south of the Somme, while another 150,000 men were present in bases on the lines of communication that led back to the ports. In the immediate aftermath of the evacuation from Dunkirk, Churchill had decided that Britain was still under an obligation to help the French. Accordingly the 52nd Division was moved to France, with the 1st Canadian Division following behind.

On 5 June the second phase of the German offensive began, starting what is normally known as the Battle of France. At first the French were able to hold their new line on the Somme, but they were massively outnumbered, and the Germans soon broke through and began to push the French armies west across the country. It was soon clear that the French government would be forced to seek an armistice. On 17 June Marshal Petain asked for an armistice, and on 22 June the French surrender was signed.

The British forces in France were now under the command of General Alan Brooke. By the evening of 14 June he had decided that the situation was hopeless. That night he was able to reach Churchill on the telephone, and convinced him that it was time to evacuate the rest of the B.E.F. before it was too late. After a ten minute conversation Churchill agreed, and on the following day Operation Aerial began.

The operation was split into two sectors. Admiral James, based at Portsmouth, was to control the evacuation from Cherbourg and St Malo, while Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith, the commander-in-chief of the Western Approaches, based at Plymouth, would control the evacuation from Brest, St. Nazaire and La Pallice. Eventually this western evacuation would extend to include the ports on the Gironde estuary, Bayonne and St Jean-de-Luz.

Admiral James soon decided that he had too few flotilla vessels to put in place a convoy system, so he arranged for a flow of independently routed troops ships, motor transport and store ships to use Southampton, while coastal ships used Poole and Dutch schuyts used Weymouth.

The evacuation from Cherbourg proceeded smoothly. Most of the 52nd Division embarked on 15-17 June, followed on 18 June by Norman Force, a composite unit creating from fragments of other formations. When the last ships left Cherbourg on the afternoon of 18 June a total of 30,630 men had been rescued, including 9,000 moved from Havre during Operation Cycle.

A similar picture developed at St. Malo. There the 1st Canadian Division embarked on 16 June and by the end of 17 June a total of 21,474 men had been evacuated. This was followed on 18 June by a hunt for stragglers and the demolition of the port facilities.

Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith had two jobs. As well as rescuing a large number of British, Polish and Czech troops, he also had to do his best to prevent the French Atlantic fleet from falling into German hands. His first action, on 16 June, was to post senior naval officers to Brest and St Nazaire. At this point neither he nor the French authorities in those ports realised how urgent the evacuation would soon become, and it was planned to spend the next week evacuating stores and equipment, but the cabinet had a better idea of how close French resistance was to collapse. Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith was ordered to begin the evacuation on 16 June.

The evacuation from Brest took place on 16 and 17 June. A total of 28,145 British and 4,439 Allied fighting men were rescued, amongst them a large number of RAF personnel. There was very little interference from the Germans, who carried out no heavy air raids against Brest. At 4 pm on 17 June the French fleet sailed from Brest, but sadly most of it turned south and made for Casablanca and Dakar, with only a small number of ships making for Britain instead. On 18 June the port facilities were demolished, and on 19 June the demolition part withdrew on the destroyer Blake.

The evacuation from St. Nazaire was not so free from German intervention. It was already more difficult because navigational hazards in the Loire meant that the larger ships had to use Quiberon Bay as an anchorage before moving to St. Nazaire to pick up men. Up to 40,000 troops were believed to be retreating towards Nantes, fifty miles upstream, and so Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith had decided to begin the evacuation early on 16 June. By the end of the day 13,000 base troops had been take onboard ship.

17 June saw the biggest single loss of life during the entire evacuation process when at 3.35pm the liner Lancastria was sunk by German bombing. 3,000 of the 5,800 men embarked on her were killed, even though she sank relatively slowly in shallow water. Rescue efforts were hampered by a sheet of burning oil that surrounded the ship and by a German air raid that lasted from 3.45 to 4.30pm.

This disaster was not revealed in Britain for some years. When the news reached Churchill in the Cabinet Room, he forbade its publication on the grounds that “the newspapers have got quite enough disasters for to-day at least”. At the time he had intended to lift the ban after few days had passed, but this disaster was followed by the French surrender, the start of the Battle of Britain and the constant fear of invasion. Under the pressure of these momentous events Churchill simply forgot to lift the ban until reminded of it later in the war.

Despite this tragedy, the evacuation went on. Soon after dawn on 18 June a convoy of ten ships carrying 23,000 men left the port, leaving only 4,000 men still to evacuate. False intelligence then led Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith to believe that the Germans were closer than they were, and at 11am on 18 June a convoy of twelve ships took off the last men, leaving behind a great deal of equipment that could have been rescued. The Germans had still not arrived on 19 June, but instead Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith was informed that 8,000 Poles had reached the port. Accordingly he sent in a fleet of seven transports and six destroyers, but they only found 2,000 men. By the end of the day a total of 57,235 troops had been evacuated from St. Nazaire, 54,411 British and 2,764 Polish.

Far few men were evacuated from La Pallice, the final port originally designated as part of the operation. When the senior naval officer reached La Pallice on 16 June he found that all his ships had been sent to Brest and St. Nazaire instead, and so he was forced to requisition a fleet of cargo ships. The troops embarked on 17 June, and the convoy left 18 June. Later in the same day Admiral Dunbar-Nasmith learnt that 4,000 Poles had reached the port, and sent in a second evacuation fleet. Finally on 19 June he was told that another contingent of Poles had arrived, but when a third evacuation fleet entered La Pallice very few troops could be found. The empty ships were then sent south to the Gironde. A total of 2,303 British and over 4,000 Poles were rescued from La Pallice.

This ended Operation Aerial as it had originally been planned, but events had moved on again. The French armistice was now imminent, and so it was decided to carry out a final round of evacuations, this time from the ports of the River Gironde and the ports of Bayonne and St Jean-de-Luz, close to the Spanish border. This time the main focus was on evacuating civilian refugees, the staffs from Allied embassies and legations and rescuing valuable shipping, although some troops were also expected to reach this area. The first British ships arrived on 16 June – the cruiser Arethusa from Gibraltar and the destroyer Berkeley from Britain, carrying the senior naval officers who would direct these last evacuations. After delivering her passengers, the Berkeleythen sailed to Bordeaux, to act as a radio centre for the operation.

The evacuation effort from the Gironde was made on 18-19 June when thousands of refugees were rescued. The British Ambassador to France, Sir Ronald Campbell, stayed with the French government at Bordeaux until 23 June, then made his was to Arcachon, before finally being evacuated from St. Jean de Luz. After the main evacuation was over, a large contingent of 6,000 Polish troops were found to have reached Le Verdon, at the mouth of the Gironde, and on the morning of 23 June they too were rescued.

The evacuation continued to stretch further to the south. On 19 June four liners were sent to Bayonne, from where 9,000 troops were rescued by the Polish ships Batory and Sobieksi. After two days operating from Bayonne, the remaining ships were then sent to St. Jean-de-Luz, to take advantage of better harbour facilities. Poor weather then delayed the start of the evacuation until 24 June. News of the armistice terms had now reached the French authorities, and they informed the British that all evacuations must end at noon of 25 June. Despite this the last troopship did not leave until 2.30pm on that day. A total of 19,000 soldiers, mostly Polish, were rescued from Bayonne and St Jean-de-Luz.

A final set of evacuations took part from the south coast of France. These were put in place by 23 June, and took place on 24-26 June. Another 10,000 troops, mostly Poles and Czechs, along with a similar number of civilians, reached safety at Gibraltar.

Between them Operations Cycle and Aerial managed to rescue 191,870 fighting men from the ports of north west and western France (144,171 British, 18,246 French, 24,352 Polish, 4,938 Czechs and 163 Belgians). Although much equipment was lost, 310 artillery guns, 2,292 vehicles, 1,800 tons of stores and a small number of tanks were also rescued. When combined with the evacuation from Dunkirk a total of 558,032 men were rescued from the disaster in France. Once again Britain’s control of the seas had saved her from military disaster.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
wingman
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 2:40 pm

I'm not sure I understand the direction of this thread. Are people suggesting another war in Europe is going to break out?
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 2:59 pm

The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 3:11 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 20):
I'm not sure I understand the direction of this thread. Are people suggesting another war in Europe is going to break out?

Actually the danger is getting higher by politicians of many countries risiking the future of the EU for selfishness. Lets face it, the EU guarantees stability and prosperity. The naysayers may question it as much as they like to do it, but the EU is a success Story beyond any example in history.

Unfortunately most People dont see the real benefits of a united europe.
 
wingman
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 5:46 pm

This playing with fire is madness. First you have Scotland almost setting a destructive trend on the Continent and now this wholesale withdrawal from the EU. In a world full of shit shows it's highly valuable to have two rich continents mutually tethered in a strong economic, social and political partnership. Why anyone would want to risk all of this for some strictly selfish and unknown benefit is crazy. Britain is part of something much bigger than just itself now and to me has an awesome responsibility in playing its part. Instead we have these self-destructive referendums coming one after the other threatening real havoc, and really at the wrong time. The recovery in Europe is weak at best and while I don't agree with Cameron's fears of WWIII, the potential damage to the global economy is severe. I say more Breuromance and less Brexit.
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 6:11 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 19):
Which withdrawal?

Nice quotes from the likes of Google and Wiki. Would get you a C for your homework, as the main subject , which was "Mr Churchill' s decision to withdraw" was never addressed.
Unfinished homework...
So try again, and keep inside the subject.
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winterlight
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 9:02 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 21):
According to Dave...

Scaremongering from The Cameronbot.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 9:57 pm

Quoting winterlight (Reply 25):

Wouldn't surprise me, if Dave after his term as PM, (He has indicated he will step down) if he's not offered an EU job.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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zckls04
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 10:15 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 23):
This playing with fire is madness.

You mentioned the Scottish referendum, and it seems from this thread that nobody has learnt anything from it. Yes, there is no particularly pressing reason to leave (after all, the entire referendum is just a sideshow- this is really about the future of the Tory party). But look how the "Better Together" campaign managed to almost snatch defeat from the jaws of victory with their slogan being essentially "you're nothing without us". I can easily see the same happening here on the basis of what I've read in this thread.
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offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Tue May 17, 2016 11:55 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 27):

OK, let me put this iinto a different perspective for Americans. Here's an EU style scenario for you.

America, NAFTA 2017. All Mexicans and Canadians have the legal right to live and work in the US. Likewise all US citizens have the right to work in Canada or Mexico. Where there used to be long lines at the border, there is now only a sign saying "NAFTA. USA" and that's the only hint that you've now crossed the border into the USA. Your single currency, the Trudeau (currency code TRD) is now the official currency of Canada and Mexico, but the US still wants to maintain the USD despite many economists and important politicians like Tony Blair insisting that the USA would be much better off adopting the TRD. Americans meanwhile, are of course very grateful for a bunch of foreigners weighing in with their opinions on US domestic affairs, but struggling somewhat to recall exactly how and when they surrendered sovereignty to NAFTA.

Jan 2018, NAFTA has decided that from that day you'll use the metric system. No discussion, that's what you will do. Millions of Americans not happy? Doesn't matter, that's the way it is. NAFTA DIrective 123/2016 decreed it. And, by the way, the US Supreme Court now submits requests for legal opinions to the NAFTA Court of Justice based in Toronto. Their opinions and rulings override any decision taken by the USSC.

Oh, and just because the NAFTA Standardizatuon Committee said so, from December, all your ambulances need to be repainted yellow.

......

Ridiculous scenario above? Maybe. Maybe not.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 2:13 am

Hmmm, let's see...

Quoting offloaded (Reply 28):
Where there used to be long lines at the border, there is now only a sign saying "NAFTA. USA" and that's the only hint that you've now crossed the border into the USA.

When exactly did the UK join the Schengen treaty? Because what you described, is a Schnengen border crossing, not an EU one.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 28):
Your single currency, the Trudeau (currency code TRD) is now the official currency of Canada and Mexico, but the US still wants to maintain the USD despite many economists and important politicians like Tony Blair insisting that the USA would be much better off adopting the TRD.

And yet, if your example should be valid, the USA would not be obligated to adopt the Trudeau. Only any new NAFTA membership candidates would. So where's the problem?

Quoting offloaded (Reply 28):
Jan 2018, NAFTA has decided that from that day you'll use the metric system.

That metric system that's already used by the military, NASA and most car manufacturers?

Quoting offloaded (Reply 28):
Oh, and just because the NAFTA Standardizatuon Committee said so, from December, all your ambulances need to be repainted yellow.

Interesting...is that the same standardization committee that has zero problem with cars in two member countries having the steering wheel on the opposite side?

Quoting offloaded (Reply 28):
Ridiculous scenario above? Maybe. Maybe not.

Maybe a bit ... inaccurate.
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 4:06 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 28):
Ridiculous scenario above? Maybe. Maybe not.

Sounds great. The imperial measuring system is a ridiculous anachronism. But I'm guessing you were looking for a different answer.

Problem is, that isn't an EU style scenario. The UK does not have open borders, and you still order pints in pubs and measure distances in mph. Britain committed to working towards the metric system in 1972- two years before EU membership. The EU has repeatedly stated it has no wish to dictate the pace at which Britain adopts the metric system.

This is the problem I have with both sides of the campaign- they feel the need to inflate their cases beyond credibility. Generally I gravitate away from the side that feels the need to lie to bolster its case, but in this case I find both sides equally guilty.
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seahawk
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 6:32 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
Comparing the EU with Hitler? Is Johnson completely out of his mind?

This is really a new all-time low for the Brexit campaign.

No, he is spot one, as the EU is just a tool for German dominance and Merkel has set Germany on a racial policy that is aimed at destroying Europe as we know it.The Brits need to get out and set a trend in Europe, the countries must stand up to Germany again and work together to weaken Germany. A strong Germany is not good for Europe, it never was.
 
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 7:24 am

Boris

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
Comparing the EU with Hitler? Is Johnson completely out of his mind?

This is really a new all-time low for the Brexit campaign.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36295208

If he does believe the analogy with hitler is correct then it suggests that he would not have advocated standing with the rest of Europe at the beginning of WW2. Instead during ww2 Britain tries to stay in and create a better Europe, not running and hiding and holding it all at arms length.

Fred
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TheSonntag
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 8:20 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 31):
Merkel has set Germany on a racial policy that is aimed at destroying Europe as we know

Utter B/S does not get better if it is repeated often enough. I really wonder why so many People on a aviation site are so upper right wing extremists.
 
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seahawk
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 10:13 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 33):
Utter B/S does not get better if it is repeated often enough. I really wonder why so many People on a aviation site are so upper right wing extremists.

Imho we already see the EU disintegrating under the pressure caused by the refugee crisis. Even if we agree and say that only Merkel is living the values written down on paper by the EU, her course will brake-up the EU, because most countries only paid lip service when it comes to refugee rights.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 10:26 am

Actual conversation I had yesterday:
MIL(mother in law, dangerous territory I know): "who are you voting for in the referendum Fred? I'm voting for Nigel Farage.
Me: which campaign is he for?
MIL: Get rid of Brussels, it's all run from Germany. There's too many foreigners.
( we live in rural Yorkshire, there's basically no foreigners, the ones we do see are tourists).
Me: oh, vote leave, I don't think Nigel Farage is actually in that one.
MIL: well he should be, he'll sort the Muslims out, we don't want their kind. We're full already, I saw a Muslims on the TV and they were saying they won't use our laws and only go to sharia courts. What chance to we have if they won't use our courts.
Me: I'm not sure they get to choose if they use the courts or even if the EU has anything to do with Muslims.
MIL: there's loads of them in Middlesbrough, they even have a mosque, i woulnt be surprised if you have to wear a burka there soon.
Me: I think there's a large temple in Middlesbrough but it's for the big Sikh community.
MIL: they're the same thing.

This is a quite regular type of conversation with her, I love her dearly and she is so nice but so ignorant.

Oh well, this is the level of the debate these days, no wonder trump is doing well.

Fred
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Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 10:50 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 18):
Comparing the EU with Hitler?

Don't be surprised . Someone said the same thing on this thread...

Quoting seahawk (Reply 31):
the EU is just a tool for German dominance and Merkel has set Germany on a racial policy that is aimed at destroying Europe as we know it.

... but this is the most nauseating piece of xenophobia I've seen on A.net.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 33):
I really wonder why so many People on an aviation site are so upper right wing extremists.

...right wing extremism as an expression of excessive egocentrism and hatred of the stranger ( as in *noit us* ).
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seahawk
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 12:05 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):

... but this is the most nauseating piece of xenophobia I've seen on A.net.

It is not xenophobie but the pure fact that too much of a "welcoming culture" is able to destroy the EU and give power to right wing extremists, which would change Europe by quite a lot.
 
offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 12:47 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 30):
But I'm guessing you were looking for a different answer.

I wasn't really looking for an answer, I was attempting to put things from a different perspective. I am happy to admit that it didn't work at all.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 29):
When exactly did the UK join the Schengen treaty? Because what you described, is a Schnengen border crossing, not an EU one.

The UK didn't, and the type of crossing that I was referring to was indeed Schengen. As I just admitted to zcls04, my post was obviously completely pointless.

Moving on....

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 30):
This is the problem I have with both sides of the campaign- they feel the need to inflate their cases beyond credibility. Generally I gravitate away from the side that feels the need to lie to bolster its case, but in this case I find both sides equally guilty.

I'd certainly agree with this. There is an alarming amount of misinformation or lack of information. For example, I live in Portugal, and I've spoken to fellow Brits who actually think that an out vote means come June 24th, we have to start packing. Not many people have heard of the Vienna Convention of 1969

The (1969) Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties is clear, in article 70.1.b it states that a termination of a treaty:
“Does not affect any right, obligation or legal situation of the parties created through the execution of the treaty prior to its termination.”
To summarise, “acquired rights” – also known as “executed rights” or “vested rights” – do continue to apply to individuals. So firm are they embedded in the international order that they have acquired the status of “customary law”, which means the principle does not need to be anchored by any particularly treaty, but stands alone as a fundamental principle of international law.

Thus, should it come to the UK leaving the EU, those persons who currently live in other EU member states, invoking the right to remain under the “freedom of movement” or “freedom of establishment” provisions of the treaties, will be able to retain that “acquired right”.

That also protects Portuguese/Spanish/Germans/French/Italians etc living in the UK already. France, however, is not a signatory, so whilst the French in Britain are protected, the Brits in France are not.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
Pihero
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 2:40 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 37):
the pure fact

"pure", as in "pure race" ?

Quoting seahawk (Reply 37):
too much of a "welcoming culture" is able to destroy the EU and give power to right wing extremists,

So, if I understand well, the migrants -and their culture - are going to provoke a reaction from the extreme right ?

Don't you see that it's already happened - in France or in Denmark, Austria... etc... and guess what ? our countries are still standing !
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seahawk
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Wed May 18, 2016 3:50 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 39):
So, if I understand well, the migrants -and their culture - are going to provoke a reaction from the extreme right ?

Don't you see that it's already happened - in France or in Denmark, Austria... etc... and guess what ? our countries are still standing !

I´ll be nice and ignore the provocation in your post and just answer this.

I am not willing to make a judgement to where Europe is headed at the moment, but the immigration crisis has left Europe deeply divided. Right wing parties are seeing growing support, old balances of political power are shifting and the European Union is non-existent when it comes to this topic. And even while Merkel´s position is right by any moral value, the consequences will have to be seen. We will see how the EU develops when Poland or Hungary are asked to pay France and Germany money for Immigrants that Germany and France have taken, but Poland and Hungary refused to take. This could turn out to be the end of the EU and that would change Europe dramatically.
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Thu May 19, 2016 11:24 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 38):
Thus, should it come to the UK leaving the EU, those persons who currently live in other EU member states, invoking the right to remain under the “freedom of movement” or “freedom of establishment” provisions of the treaties, will be able to retain that “acquired right”.

Well, no doubt provisions would be made for expats, but Brexit would certainly include a treaty on the execution of the withdrawal of the UK from the EU. So that new treaty would trump the older treaties from which individuals draw their rights.

I'm sure people wouldn't be given a hard time, but I'd be surprised if there wouldn't be a normalization period, after which those rights will be withdrawn. 5-10 years perhaps, enough for people who want to stay, to change citizenship etc.

While the content of such an agreement is purely my guess, what is not a guess is that there will be an agreement made on the withdrawal of the UK and that agreement will supersede any older agreements, so putting your faith in the current agreements is probably not a fantastic idea.
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JJJ
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Thu May 19, 2016 11:29 am

Quoting Asturias (Reply 41):
I'm sure people wouldn't be given a hard time, but I'd be surprised if there wouldn't be a normalization period, after which those rights will be withdrawn. 5-10 years perhaps, enough for people who want to stay, to change citizenship etc.

Those who are here legally at least.

Thing is, a lot of the people (as much as half by some estimates) keep legal residency in the UK despite spending most of the year in Spain. Those would surely face some issues.

[Edited 2016-05-19 04:30:00]
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Thu May 19, 2016 11:37 am

Quoting JJJ (Reply 42):
Thing is, a lot of the people (as much as half by some estimates) keep legal residency in the UK despite spending most of the year in Spain. Those would surely face some issues.

Sure, that could happen if there will be no provisions made for those people in an exit treaty, but if they really really wanted to stay after a hypothetical Brexit, they could change their legal residency and apply for citizenship I suppose, as long as they do it in time.

Either way, this is all academic, I was merely pointing out that the permanency of current rights is not guaranteed.
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offloaded
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Thu May 19, 2016 1:08 pm

Quoting Asturias (Reply 41):

Just to clarify, it is my understanding of the Treaty of Vienna, that actually means that new treaties can't trump old ones, so if you acquired legal residency in Spain as a Brit now or vice versa, any new treaties can't cancel your current rights, so your rights are guaranteed.

New arrivals, or those as JJJ mentioned, (we have many here also that have never taken up formal residency for various reasons - usually because of tax or cars!) would have no inferred rights at all.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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Asturias
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Thu May 19, 2016 2:26 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 44):
Just to clarify, it is my understanding of the Treaty of Vienna, that actually means that new treaties can't trump old ones, so if you acquired legal residency in Spain as a Brit now or vice versa, any new treaties can't cancel your current rights, so your rights are guaranteed.

Article 30 paragraph 2 and 3 address this issue, as do art. 43 and art. 70 and are in accordance with traditional interpretation of law.

So new treaties can certainly supersede older ones, as is evident in practice with e.g. the Treaty of Lisboa towards older EU treaties.

Newer treaties can change current rights and obligations and free the parties (states) from the previous obligation, except other rights and obligations agreed upon by other treaties, e.g. European Convention of Human Rights, other trade agreements, etc.

Thus the situation for expats would probably change, unless the Brexit treaty would make provisions for those individuals, which will certainly be made. I doubt very much that anyone, on either side, wants an unruly Brexit. There's no reason to think these changes would be draconian, but expats would have to adapt to the host nation's laws after a period of time.
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Max Q
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 23, 2016 12:29 am

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 35):
Actual conversation I had yesterday:
MIL(mother in law, dangerous territory I know): "who are you voting for in the referendum Fred? I'm voting for Nigel Farage.
Me: which campaign is he for?
MIL: Get rid of Brussels, it's all run from Germany. There's too many foreigners.
( we live in rural Yorkshire, there's basically no foreigners, the ones we do see are tourists).
Me: oh, vote leave, I don't think Nigel Farage is actually in that one.
MIL: well he should be, he'll sort the Muslims out, we don't want their kind. We're full already, I saw a Muslims on the TV and they were saying they won't use our laws and only go to sharia courts. What chance to we have if they won't use our courts.
Me: I'm not sure they get to choose if they use the courts or even if the EU has anything to do with Muslims.
MIL: there's loads of them in Middlesbrough, they even have a mosque, i woulnt be surprised if you have to wear a burka there soon.
Me: I think there's a large temple in Middlesbrough but it's for the big Sikh community.
MIL: they're the same thing.

This is a quite regular type of conversation with her, I love her dearly and she is so nice but so ignorant.

Oh well, this is the level of the debate these days, no wonder trump is doing well.

Sounds like a recent conversation I had with my Father !
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JJJ
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 23, 2016 12:16 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 44):
usually because of tax or cars!

Usually the same thing. IIRC there's a huge registration vehicle tax for registering foreign vehicles in Portugal.

Back when I went to Portugal a lot I met a Galician doctor working somewhere near Braga who told me about the GNR following Spanish-registered vehicles to see if they were working there. They would impound the car (or follow you to the border) unless you re-registered the car which cost a few thousand euro (often far more than the vehicle value)

For comparison purposes, re-registering a Portuguese car in Spain costs less than 100 euro. That's how they keep their crazy car prices.
 
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winterlight
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 23, 2016 9:12 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 30):
The UK does not have open borders

We have no borders at all ! Simply walk through the Channel Tunnel or hide in a shipping container and you're guaranteed a free house and benefits.
Question everything. Trust no-one.
 
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Dano1977
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RE: EU Citizens Fear Brexit More Than People In UK Pt2

Mon May 23, 2016 11:12 pm

Immigration is an issue.

But for me, the big issues are the huge amount of waste the EU generates,

According to the European court of auditors, They spend 180million Euros a year to move staff and paperwork between Strasbourg and Brussels twelve times a year.

All 27 states have to sign up for the move to a single building, but some vested interests don't want to see it lose it's Strasbourg base.

The common agricultural policy is another black hole which hard working European taxpayers hard earned cash is wasted away.

Fraudulent claims for imaginary cows, non existent fruit plantations costing taxpayers £1.2billion a year or roughly £3.3million per day. In one year the fraudulent claims went up by 106%.

What did the EU do to the accountant that blew the whistle on this massive fraud... They fired her!

The EU isn't perfect, and things need to change, but while the pigs are getting fat feeding from the trough, it won't.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.

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