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zrs70
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At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Wed Jun 08, 2016 8:36 pm

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0YU2F1
I've been to that mall. So, so sad.
 
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seb146
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 2:26 am

And when Israel retaliates, there will be another Palestinian attack and Israel will retaliate prompting a Palestinian attack for which Israel will retaliate....
 
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Aaron747
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 4:33 am

Just end the settlements and start working toward reconciliation. And stop electing/appointing racist Russian emigres like Avigdor Lieberman to any meaningful positions FFS...
 
JJJ
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:08 am

I've also been several times to that mall. It makes the images even more shocking.

In typical Israeli efficiency the perpetrators have been caught, so at least there's that.
 
QFA380
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:21 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 2):

Just end the settlements and start working toward reconciliation.

Israel's clear long game is to completely subsume the West Bank. Barring any catastrophic event, it's a matter of when not if. Could be 50 years, 100 years, 200 years. Eye on the prize and 9 wounded certainly isn't going to stop the settlements. Peace and 'two-state solution' is the carrot dangled in front of the west.

One must remember that the same strategy of building kibbutzes, shooing the locals away and declaring the land yours is how Israel started and that took them over 40 years and they had the huge population increase and international goodwill post-WWII.
 
blacksoviet
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 11:32 am

Actually, the Palestinians have every right to use armed resistance (including terrorism) against a foreign military occupier. Israel is a terrorist state. Israeli society in general is very racist. Anyone who supports Israel is a racist. Israelis attack and kill Palestinians in Hebron everyday.

Miko Peled is an honest Israeli Jew. http://youtu.be/3Owf52Ikx3Q

[Edited 2016-06-09 04:34:56]
 
blacksoviet
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 12:00 pm

How about Ayalet Shaked's open call for genocide claiming that Palestinian mothers should be executed because they give birth to "little snakes"? What about the recent appointment of Avigdor Lieberman as a minister? He called for a WMD to be dropped on Gaza.

With this kind of genocidal rhetoric, it is obvious to everybody that Israel DOES NOT want peace. There will never be peace until there is justice. The ball is in Israel's court. Israel knows what to do if it wants peace.
 
BestWestern
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:38 pm

Does the end justify the means. No.
 
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Aesma
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:48 pm

Israel responds with collective punishment. The nazis used to do that, too.
 
photopilot
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:57 pm

You know I wonder why there is even a discussion thread about a few dead and injured Israelis? There are terrorist attacks weekly in the mid-east, far more people killed, Turkey and Istanbul are regularly bombed by terrorists and nary a mention on these forums.

Why is that I wonder? Do the other lives in other countries not matter as much as a dead Israeli? Could it be that someone wants to put Israeli dead/injured killed by terrorists on a different level than other nationalities dead?

The forums react when it's "first-world" dead, but dead in other countries get nary a mention. Why is that?
 
johns624
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 6:20 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 16):
The forums react when it's "first-world" dead, but dead in other countries get nary a mention. Why is that?

Israel has a great PR machine.
 
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Aesma
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Thu Jun 09, 2016 9:53 pm

Politicians are always affirming Israel's "right of existence". This in itself proves it isn't that obvious. You don't hear such proclamations for many other countries, except ones created even more recently (Kosovo, South Sudan...). Of course in the USA no-one dares say that so you're surprised when you hear it.
 
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777Jet
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:41 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 10):
Quoting photopilot (Reply 16):
The forums react when it's "first-world" dead, but dead in other countries get nary a mention. Why is that?

Israel has a great PR machine.

  

They sure do!

When threads discussing the loss of just a few Jews remain but a thread discussing the loss of thousands of Palestinians vanishes it goes to show the extent of the reach of the Israel PR machine  





[Edited 2016-06-10 21:43:44]
 
TheCommodore
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 5:45 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 12):
When threads discussing the loss of just a few Jews remain but a thread discussing the loss of thousands of Palestinians vanishes it goes to show the extent of the reach of the Israel PR machine  

Amazing isn't it ?

Im appealed by this type of censorship, and its so blatant. Its beyond rational explanation !!!
 
us330
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 1:34 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 13):
Amazing isn't it ?

Im appealed by this type of censorship, and its so blatant. Its beyond rational explanation !!!

/Sarcasm on

Yes, I'm sure AIPAC and those greedy Zionist Jews that control the internet were behind the deletion of that thread and not comments like those of BlackSoviet who blamed the Jews for the Holocaust....

/Sarcasm off

Please. These conspiracy theories of yours are absolutely ridiculous. If you can recall, look at the comments on that thread versus the comments on this thread. It's pretty clear why one was deleted and one wasn't.
 
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pvjin
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 2:47 pm

Quoting blacksoviet (Reply 5):
Actually, the Palestinians have every right to use armed resistance (including terrorism) against a foreign military occupier. Israel is a terrorist state. Israeli society in general is very racist. Anyone who supports Israel is a racist. Israelis attack and kill Palestinians in Hebron everyday.

I would say Palestinian society is at least equally racist, and unlike Israelis they also oppress sexual minorities. Then if we look at rest of the Middle East we can see that nearly every single Middle Eastern state seriously lacks in areas of religious freedom, in most countries religious minorities are more or less discriminated.

When these are the facts, tell me why exactly I should oppose Israel when the other nations in the region are generally even worse?

I don't really support Israel though, but neither do I oppose their cause as Arabs, unlike Jews, have enough land even without Palestine. The only cool guy in Middle East is Bashar Al Assad.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 9):

That argument can be turned around too. Why is there such an outrage while Israel kills Palestinians, while nobody really gives a damn about Saudis bombing innocent civilians in Yemen, or oppressing the Shia minority?

I mean, let's get real. Nobody in the west would really give a damn about Israelis killing Palestinians if both sides were Muslim.
 
johns624
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:02 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Arabs, unlike Jews, have enough land even without Palestine

Why do you group all Arabs together? Palestinians want to live in Palestine, not some other country 500 miles away.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
When these are the facts, tell me why exactly I should oppose Israel when the other nations in the region are generally even worse?

Why support either side? I'm sick of the "lesser of two evils" argument. I don't support either side. One side just has a much better PR department.
 
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pvjin
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 4:52 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 16):
Why do you group all Arabs together? Palestinians want to live in Palestine, not some other country 500 miles away.

They wouldn't have to move 500 miles away, people on the other side of the border in Jordan speak the same language, are culturally pretty much the same and are majority Sunni Muslims like Palestinians. Practically speaking after government formalities Palestinians would be no more foreign in Jordan than the Finns who had to move from Karelia to other parts of Finland due to war were in their new home areas.

Quoting johns624 (Reply 16):
Why support either side? I'm sick of the "lesser of two evils" argument. I don't support either side. One side just has a much better PR department.

Yeah, I think world should just stand back and watch the stronger side win, in the end it's just natural selection. Borders have always changed, governments and entire societies have fallen. Why should we try to delay the inevitable?
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:43 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
The only cool guy in Middle East is Bashar Al Assad.

Coming from you i am not surprised. A cool guy doesn't kill his own people by targeting innocent childrin, women, hospital with barrels full of explosives. Having said that i am also not a fan of ISIS or Alnousra.
 
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pvjin
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:24 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
Coming from you i am not surprised. A cool guy doesn't kill his own people by targeting innocent childrin, women, hospital with barrels full of explosives. Having said that i am also not a fan of ISIS or Alnousra.

I don't think Assad targets civilians with such weapons on purpose, more likely there's just some ISIS or other terrorists groups like FSA nearby In any case I would blame the west for this, if western countries had given Assad some more modern and accurate weaponry civilian casualties could be lowered, in fact the war could have ended already if it wasn't for the western support of terrorist organizations.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:12 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
if western countries had given Assad some more modern and accurate weaponry civilian casualties could be lowered, in fact the war could have ended already if it wasn't for the western support of terrorist organizations.

The Assad regime has been armed by Russia for a long time. Assad always declare that he wants to liberate Palestine.
Either it's just talk or he is well armed. Choose one.
 
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HGL
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:51 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 17):
They wouldn't have to move 500 miles away

Why should they have to move at all?

Besides which, Jordan is already struggling to cope with the huge influx of more than 630,000 refugees from Syria, 22,500 Iraqis and refugees from Somalia, Sudan, Yemen and other countries. This is on top of previously having received many refugees from Palestine in the past. Jordan is not a rich country, having more than 15% unemployment with higher rates among youth (excluding refugees who may not take up employment), ranking 128 by GDP, heavily reliant on imports and on foreign aid to cover its deficit. It is also one of the most water-stressed countries and advocating forced removal of Palestinians to Jordan can only increase that stress.

As it is a large part of internationally recognised Israel is relatively under-populated, mainly in the central-south and Negev, yet expansion is taking place in the State of Palestinian or West Bank. This is intentional and not of necessity. It is largely politically/ ideologically driven and not due to what Netanyahu has called "a need for living space", although it is likely that infrastructure costs of new urban communities are lower.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
nearly every single Middle Eastern state seriously lacks in areas of religious freedom, in most countries religious minorities are more or less discriminated.

The argument that some countries in the Middle East are undemocratic or harsh in their treatment of minorities is no justification for ethnic cleansing in another. Nor would forcing Palestinians to migrate to Jordan or elsewhere do anything to reduce ill-treatment or discrimination in other countries. To justify ethnic cleansing on the grounds that things are worse elsewhere really is absurd. Basically you are saying, there is inhumanity so let us add to it.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 19):
if western countries had given Assad some more modern and accurate weaponry civilian casualties could be lowered

You do not generally extend democracy by supporting dictators. Sure you might get stability but it comes at the price of freedom and even then the stability is based on building up pressure in a volcano. In the absence of democratic means of discussing and bringing about change you eventually create the conditions in which people revolt. During such times without already existing democratic parties sectarians may rapidly take control of popular struggles. We saw this in Iran where fundamentalists were able to take control after the overthrow of the Shah.

We have seen this in Libya after the toppling of Qaddafi and we are seeing it in Syria. The fault was and is not that people in the Middle east are predisposed to religious fundamentalism but that the previous repression that you enthusiastically endorse created the very conditions in which organisations like al-Qaeda and Da'esh could fill a vacuum.
 
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pvjin
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:33 am

Quoting HGL (Reply 21):
Why should they have to move at all?

Because somebody else with bigger guns wants their land. Over the course of history this has been a rather typical reason for mass movements of people.

Quoting HGL (Reply 21):
This is on top of previously having received many refugees from Palestine in the past. Jordan is not a rich country, having more than 15% unemployment with higher rates among youth (excluding refugees who may not take up employment), ranking 128 by GDP, heavily reliant on imports and on foreign aid to cover its deficit. It is also one of the most water-stressed countries and advocating forced removal of Palestinians to Jordan can only increase that stress

Well, there are tons of other Arabic countries where Palestinians should feel themselves welcomed if the native populations in said countries aren't xenophobic towards culturally similar people from other geographic areas.

Quoting HGL (Reply 21):
The argument that some countries in the Middle East are undemocratic or harsh in their treatment of minorities is no justification for ethnic cleansing in another. Nor would forcing Palestinians to migrate to Jordan or elsewhere do anything to reduce ill-treatment or discrimination in other countries. To justify ethnic cleansing on the grounds that things are worse elsewhere really is absurd. Basically you are saying, there is inhumanity so let us add to it.

In my opinion it's a good justification not to care. Besides, if Palestinians got their own independent state I have full confidence that it will end up as an Islamist dictatorship sooner or later.

Quoting HGL (Reply 21):
You do not generally extend democracy by supporting dictators.

The ultimate truth is that you can't extend democracy to areas that aren't ready for it. Most of those "pro democracy" forces in Middle East don't really give a damn about democracy itself, for them it's simply a tool to create an Islamist revolution by manipulating the ignorant population to vote for them. Look at what happened in Egypt, they were given a democratic election, and who did they choose? A radical Islamist who instantly started to destroy that newborn democracy.

Quoting HGL (Reply 21):
The fault was and is not that people in the Middle east are predisposed to religious fundamentalism but that the previous repression that you enthusiastically endorse created the very conditions in which organisations like al-Qaeda and Da'esh could fill a vacuum.

Or perhaps people in the Middle East just aren't too interested in democracy? As I see it, in most Middle Eastern countries you either have secular dictators or Islamist dictators keeping order, democracy is rarely an option. Some countries like Iraq in particular with Shia - Sunni tension simply fall into chaos as long as somebody doesn't keep those two groups off each others throats like Saddam did.

In any case, in the end stability and peace may lead to rise of democracy, but democracy brought by a foreign government (like in Afghanistan or Iraq) isn't going to work if the country that isn't ready for it.
 
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HGL
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:21 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 22):

Because somebody else with bigger guns wants their land.

I see. A bank robber has a gun and therefore he is entitled to the bank's money. A rapist is stronger than the woman, therefore the woman should just submit. The Nazis were stronger than the Jews, therefore they were entitled to take their possessions and later exterminate them. Might is right. The law of the jungle is the highest ideal. The world view that you are expressing is not too dissimilar to the actual practice of Da'esh: I have a gun and you will do what I say on pain of death.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 22):
Most of those "pro democracy" forces in Middle East don't really give a damn about democracy itself, for them it's simply a tool

Is that significantly different to politicians elsewhere?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 22):
Or perhaps people in the Middle East just aren't too interested in democracy?

From my discussion with people in and from the Middle East, both living there and living overseas, the wants of ordinary people are pretty much the same as in other parts of the world. For example, during my time in Jordan people spoke of jobs, housing, prices, education for their children. I have had similar conversations with people in Egypt, the UAE and from Saudi Arabia. Slaughtering people who disagreed with them was not among their priorities.

In fact, a recent ASDA'A Burson-Marsteller Arab Youth Survey indicated that most Arab teens and young adults overwhelmingly oppose Da'esh and would oppose it even if it dropped its violence. They see the lack of jobs as being the leading factor in recruitment but ultimately believe that the so-called Caliphate will fail. After five years of struggles for democracy the emphasis is on stability but most believe that their leaders should do more to improve personal freedom and human rights, particularly for women. So we find that attitudes among Arabs are no more unidirectional than they are in other parts of the world.

[Edited 2016-06-12 03:25:24]
 
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777Jet
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:38 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 22):
Quoting HGL (Reply 21):
Why should they have to move at all?

Because somebody else with bigger guns wants their land.

And if that somebody with even bigger guns yet again stopped accepting Jewish protection money and stopped protecting Israel it would only be a matter of months until Israel became Palestine...
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: At Least Nine Wounded In Tel Aviv Attack

Mon Jun 13, 2016 1:46 pm

For something practical and not political, how safe is Tel Aviv for tourists overall? Clearly tragic attacks are the new normal around the world now...   

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