Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
Revelation
Topic Author
Posts: 26681
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sat Jun 11, 2016 6:50 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rything-survey-shows-a7074311.html says:

Quote:

According to their research by Ipsos MORI, British people think far more EU citizens live in the UK than actually do, that we pay far more money to the EU budget than is the case, and that we significantly overestimate the amount of benefits paid to EU migrants.

I for one am not surprised.

It's hard to argue with the conclusion:

Quote:

Professor Anand Menon, Director of the UK in a Changing Europe, who co-authored the study said:

“There are obviously still high levels of ignorance about the EU, which is troubling so close to the referendum. However, it is not so surprising, given the lack of accurate information provided to the public, as well as the mistruths, exaggerations, and scaremongering that have taken place during this campaign. It’s now more imperative than ever that the public can be provided with as much factual information about the EU as possible before they cast their vote”

Now, like most of the Brits, I'm off to watch some footie!  
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 18742
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sat Jun 11, 2016 8:18 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
According to their research by Ipsos MORI, British people think far more EU citizens live in the UK than actually do, that we pay far more money to the EU budget than is the case, and that we significantly overestimate the amount of benefits paid to EU migrants.

Isn't that true everywhere? In the US we think we're wasting trillions on food stamps, while we're being overrun by immigrants and terrorists, when none of that is the case--the latter laughably so.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5909
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:20 pm

Bane of this world...

People love to hate and point fingers without bothering educating themselves on the subject, and the vote-hungry populists make a field day out of shoving fear and paranoia down their throat.

It happens around the World. Now more than ever it seems.
That's the only reason people like Trump manage to gather any interest.
 
User avatar
pvjin
Posts: 3586
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:52 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:33 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 2):

To be honest I don't think populists like Trump lie that much more than other politicians and mainstream media do. I mean, who the heck really believes that large scale humanitarian migration will benefit EU economically when there clearly won't be enough jobs for these people? Who believes that the west is successfully stabilizing the Middle East and spreading democracy by supporting Islamist groups?

The difference between a "populist" and an ordinary politician is that the latter says what the elite wants him/her to say, while the former says what the people want to hear. Neither should be trusted.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:46 pm

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 2):

Bane of this world...

People love to hate and point fingers without bothering educating themselves on the subject, and the vote-hungry populists make a field day out of shoving fear and paranoia down their throat.

It happens around the World. Now more than ever it seems.
That's the only reason people like Trump manage to gather any interest.

And your attitude explains precisely why the U.K. is even having a referendum.

We do not live our lives as statistical creatures who reference encyclopedias of demographics data to make decisions. We do educate ourselves, but we do so via experience. The experience of many millions is that these impossibly complex and questionably democratic EU institutions are not making their lives better. So what if UK believes they are the largest contributor to migrant relief but they are actually #4? The broader resentment is that more and more critical decisions impacting Britons are being made by non-Britons.

You are critical of the politicians who are "shoving fear and paranoia" but they are only the supply-side of the issue. You are ignoring the demand-side. People are tired of being told by elitist that "they aren't educated on the data, so to hell with their concerns." The result is that the public - who those institutions are supposed to serve - are willing to throw those institutions away or take big risks on new leadership.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 14738
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:54 pm

Cameron was recently reelected. He's as elitist as you can be. So people aren't really interested in taking risks, it would seem.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6168
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:46 am

Quoting Francoflier (Reply 2):
People love to hate and point fingers without bothering educating themselves on the subject

Frankly, part of the problem is, as far as most of Europe goes, that a large part of the press corps is equally culpable, due to their continued ignorance - if not ouright refusal to check the facts - when it comes to printing stories that involve the EU.

It's such an easy way to get people to buy newspapers (or in the present day, get people to click on the headline), by printing something outrageous and pinning it on 'Brussels' (because your average reader haven't got a clue which EU institution does what).

That is not to say that everything the EU is honky-dory, and there certainly is room for justified criticism, but it's not made any easier by stuff like this being repeated ad infinitum: http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35962999
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13627
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:31 am

If most of this were proven true, I would probably vote to leave.

I've now come around to thinking that the EU has gone too far, let in too manly members and is ripe for implosion.

Quote:
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)

Cadbury moved production of several brands to a factory in Poland 2011 with EU grant. Despite promising the workforce they would not.

Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.

Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds. They have not yet said what UK plants will lose out.

Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.

British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)

Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan. (I didn't believe this till I checked Financial Times)

Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.

M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.

Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.

Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.

Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.

Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.

Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.

Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs

Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase. (Now sold on again)

JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry. (Joint CEOs charged with financial trading fraud, insider trading)

UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.

Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.

Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.

The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.

39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU

The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria and those parts assembled in the UK. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.

Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.

Yes some companies are in the UK with EU funding, but have you noticed that many, like Tata, are planning to shift the production away again, as soon as they will not have to pay a penalty to the EU for doing so. Hundreds already did, just using British skills to develop products and then opt for lower labour costs, often with a serious loss in quality too like Bosch alternators. Many employ staff only on a part-time basis, minimum wage and even those sent by DWP to work for nothing, those get just their benefits.

I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.

I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.

The way companies abuse the EU commercial assistance system is not doing the EU, Britain or any other country any favours. It has massive loopholes that are simply exploited and no-one in Brussels has the wit nor sense to change it. Change in the EU is slow at best and in most cases, next to impossible due to the intense lobbying by companies with a vested interest in abusing this very broken system. I know Margaret Thatcher was not many people's favourite person, but she did get a number of measures agreed that have now been completely eroded and sadly, by her own party. Mr Junker has said that any more 'special status' for Britain will be difficult and will face legal challenges. In other words, we will not get most of them, if any.

If the EU may break up in the event of Britain voting to leave as suggested by both leaders of the Bundesbank and European Central Bank, then in all honesty, we have as a nation been propping up a failed system for too long, It will probably fail anyway, taking anyone still 'in' with it. Thus, this vote you have is not exactly 'remain' or 'leave', it is more an issue of jumping off the sinking ship while we have a chance to swim ashore now, or waiting till it is in really deep water and going down with it. Either way, being brutally honest, we get wet and will have a struggle. Question is, do you want to survive or not?

Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:35 pm

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 7):
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in Spain using Swedish steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales. (Just assembly. They could have been built entirely in Wales with British steel, ah Tata, maybe not then.)

Total BS.

The chassis was going to be done in Spain anyway, since the Ajax is a development of the Pizarro AFV designed by Santa Barbara (which was subsequently acquired by General Dynamics).
 
GDB
Posts: 14387
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
as well as the mistruths, exaggerations, and scaremongering that have taken place during this campaign.

It's beyond the actual campaign, for some 30+ years there has been an identical campaign carried out by much of the UK press, the most virulent examples from the Murdoch Press but also the Daily Mail and the swivel eyed conspiracy rag that was once a normal mid market paper The Daily Express.
It's the nearest we have to Fox 'News' and radio 'shock jocks'.

Leading Brexit is Boris Johnson, ex and largely ineffectual London Mayor, now an MP again, who went 'Brexit' because he thinks a win for them is his shortcut to becoming PM, as Cameron would almost certainly stand down if Brexit win.
But there's another factor with him that the Remain campaign really need to remind people of, he was sacked from his job as Europe Correspondent for a broadsheet paper after making up false anti EU stories, the paper was eurosceptic but not into outright lies.
17 years on Mr Johnson has not changed in this regard.
 
GDB
Posts: 14387
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:15 pm

Kiwi Rob, those examples you cite are actions of choice by UK governments, the steel for the AFV's being a sore point politically with the troubles in the UK steel plants.
As we are on steel, the EU wanted to take action on China dumping steel on the market, guess which EU member vetoed it? The responsible minister kept to his political beliefs, pissed off to Australia on he said business but also took his daughter, during which the crisis in the industry broke and he had to return.
Time and again 'johnny foreigner' gets the blame, in the UK press, for enacting the very economic doctrines they themselves support.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:54 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
Cameron was recently reelected. He's as elitist as you can be. So people aren't really interested in taking risks, it would seem.

My "taking risks" comment was in regards to Donald Trump. My "throwing away institutions" comment was in regards to the Brexit vote. I wouldn't have brought up Donald Trump in this context myself, but since you raised, I felt it worth addressing.

Cameron also isn't directly elected, so it's tough to say how that correlates to the broader national sentiment on a specific issue like Brexit.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 4:59 pm

In regard to the perception that we have far more EU Citizens than is the actual truth, the problem is that whilst in many parts of the UK there will be virtually no signs of mass immigration, in others the percentage is far above the norm. I can immediately think of a number of towns in East Anglia with immigration figures of around 20% over the past decade or so.
 
GDB
Posts: 14387
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:18 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 12):
I can immediately think of a number of towns in East Anglia with immigration figures of around 20% over the past decade or so.

Unsurprising if you consider that so much agriculture is there, a bit like all the Latino's working in California in that industry.
I recall about 8-9 years ago a doc on the BBC called 'The Polish Are Coming' or something like that, where a large influx of East Europeans were doing largely agricultural work, much to the resentment of many locals.
However, some of those locals bitched about the immigrants with beer cans in their hands outside the dole office. Worse in a way, some local farmers in a bid to attract local labour offered, what was admittedly both seasonal and hard work but above the minimum wage. Still hardly any local takers, well not 'takers' in that regard, still all the fault of johnny foreigner apparently.

But I woud like the brexit bunch explain why two nations in particular, Norway and Switzerland, not in the EU, have levels of immigration at least as high relative to the population, if not higher - in the case of Norway perhaps, as the UK.
 
User avatar
Kiwirob
Posts: 13627
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:19 pm

On my last trip to the UK back in March the only British people I interacted with were the customers I was visiting, and black cab drivers, almost everyone else was an Eastern European, hotels, restaurants, immigration, all staffed by foreigners. Its a lot like Oslo where most service staff are Swedish, but this on a national,scale not just a single city.

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
But I woud like the brexit bunch explain why two nations in particular, Norway and Switzerland, not in the EU, have levels of immigration at least as high relative to the population, if not higher - in the case of Norway perhaps, as the UK.

In Norway's case it was due to an ultra left govt who opened the doors to anyone, luckily for us the current center right govt have closed the doors. Norway isn't a very attractive place for immigrant job seekers right now, it's the opposite immigrants are leaving.
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 9310
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:39 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):

But I woud like the brexit bunch explain why two nations in particular, Norway and Switzerland, not in the EU, have levels of immigration at least as high relative to the population, if not higher - in the case of Norway perhaps, as the UK.

Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen Area. Do you think that might be a factor?
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:44 pm

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 15):
Norway and Switzerland are in the Schengen Area. Do you think that might be a factor?

Schengen does not concern the right of abode, i.e. it allows for travel without document checks, but the right to live in another EU country stems from other treaties.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:54 pm

Thing is, whichever side of any political debate you're on, people inflate the concerns. This is not news at all. People have inaccurate ideas about what really goes on in politics?? Well, hold the presses.

Sick of the entire debate, which has been every bit as disappointing on both sides as I feared.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10201
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Sun Jun 12, 2016 10:30 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
But I woud like the brexit bunch explain why two nations in particular, Norway and Switzerland, not in the EU, have levels of immigration at least as high relative to the population, if not higher - in the case of Norway perhaps, as the UK.

In the case of Switzerland, they are being blackmailed by the EU. Take in refugees, or else your trade deals with the EU will suddenly develop problems. And they were forced to give virtually automatic work permits to EU citizens a decade ago.
 
JJJ
Posts: 4109
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:18 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 16):
Schengen does not concern the right of abode, i.e. it allows for travel without document checks, but the right to live in another EU country stems from other treaties.

Plus Switzerland has been a high-immigration country even before Schengen was in the radar.

It was close to 20% in the early 90s already, and Switzerland signed Schengen in 2004.
 
User avatar
nighthawk
Posts: 4890
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2001 2:33 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:31 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
In the case of Switzerland, they are being blackmailed by the EU. Take in refugees, or else your trade deals with the EU will suddenly develop problems. And they were forced to give virtually automatic work permits to EU citizens a decade ago.

Do you not think the same thing would happen to the UK if it left the EU?

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 7):
If most of this were proven true, I would probably vote to leave.

I've now come around to thinking that the EU has gone too far, let in too manly members and is ripe for implosion.

Quote:
OK,.. here's a short list of financial and industrial FUBARs from the EU then,.. (it was longer, much longer, but really tough reading. I have however edited this slightly due to those who have asked me to clarify some points. All of it has been fact-checked not only by myself but also many others.)

And how will leaving the EU stop any of this? The EU will still offer British companies loans to set up new facilities in Europe. But if we are outside the EU, more of them are likely to take it.

In the interest of balance, can you also post a similar list of companies that have benefited from EU loans in the UK?
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 11:46 am

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 20):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
In the case of Switzerland, they are being blackmailed by the EU. Take in refugees, or else your trade deals with the EU will suddenly develop problems. And they were forced to give virtually automatic work permits to EU citizens a decade ago.

Do you not think the same thing would happen to the UK if it left the EU?

The proof that A.netters don't have a bigger clue on what's happening.
Nobody forced Switzerland to sign to the free trade area. It's their choiice, and only theirs. the problem is that one of the conditions of joining that area is "free circulation ".

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 20):


In the interest of balance, can you also post a similar list of companies that have benefited from EU loans in the UK?

A very good point, as it is most of the time conveniently ignored.
By the way, saying...

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 7):
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant. That move was not wanted by Peugeot, it was forced on them by EU blundering and cost then dearly.

... is total B.S.
Peugeot PSA left Ryton as it became too expensive, both in terms of productivity and costs of production and transport.
cost estimated at 400 € more than Mulhouse or Madrid.
As for the move to Ternava, just compare the hourly cost per employee : the UK was some 3 to 4 times higher.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 12:40 pm

The OP has a very good point if we take the information media into account :
AFAIK, the UK has in Europe the highest newspapers' readership ( a rough comparison with France puts the average newspaper output at some 200 000 copies / day vs 1 000 000 + in the UK).

Problem seems to be in the quality of the given info : in France there is no equivalent to the daily mail or the sun.

1/- On the Brexit subject, it is of note that the *leavers* only have emotional arguments for themselves... everèything else is dismissed as *scaremongering* / foreign intervention ( Potus, mind your own business !).
...And that is the reason (!) the "remain" camp will lose : one cannot win an argument with against an emotionally-charged at(titude.

2/- The news give me a final opportunity to gauge the english attitude : Re : the riots in Marseille : All the published papers in England are blaming (a) the Russian thugs, (b) the French authorities for being "unprepared", (c) the UEFA for the same reason plus bad planning.... the English hooligans ? there were none, madam, just angelic English cherubs ( who were pissing on terrace bars, insulting the locals and the non-english in general, breaking beer bottles... and so on.
- "Without us , you'd be a kraut"...( which seems to have been one argument used in the Brexit thread...   )
- "F..k off, Europe, we're all voting out"...

Pleeeeaaase do !
 
offloaded
Posts: 985
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 1:56 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 3:09 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 22):

So, in summary, the Leave side are dim-witted Sun/Mail reading (assuming they can read) hooligans. Ok then.

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
I recall about 8-9 years ago a doc on the BBC called 'The Polish Are Coming' or something like that, where a large influx of East Europeans were doing largely agricultural work, much to the resentment of many locals.
However, some of those locals bitched about the immigrants with beer cans in their hands outside the dole office. Worse in a way, some local farmers in a bid to attract local labour offered, what was admittedly both seasonal and hard work but above the minimum wage. Still hardly any local takers, well not 'takers' in that regard, still all the fault of johnny foreigner apparently.

Because we have allowed this to happen, and I certainly don't blame johnny foreigner. Benefits in Britain are too generous to, dare I say it, Brits. If you are of working age, fit, and unemployed, and there is a job picking fruit, it should be really simple. Take the job or get no benefits. I think it's similar in Spain with the Moroccan fruit pickers.

Quoting Kiwirob (Reply 7):

Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada. New trains contract awarded to German company.

EU rules allow for "social impact" to be taken into account. This basically means that whilst protectionism is forbidden under EU rules, governments are allowed to take into consideration what would happen to the local area if the factory closes and huge amounts of people are made unemployed as a result. The UK could have awarded Derby the contract even though they were more expensive, but that isn't what Britain's been about for the last 30 years. No state subsidies, no propping up ailing industries, stand on your own two feet or go under.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:22 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 22):
1/- On the Brexit subject, it is of note that the *leavers* only have emotional arguments for themselves... everèything else is dismissed as *scaremongering* / foreign intervention ( Potus, mind your own business !).
...And that is the reason (!) the "remain" camp will lose : one cannot win an argument with against an emotionally-charged at(titude.

IMO (and that of many UK citizens), the vast majority of the scaremongering is presently coming from the remain camp, and it is not surprising that it is labelled that way.

Back in February our PM David Cameron informed the nation that he would be renegotiating our terms of membership of the EU, if he did not receive the concessions he desired he would recommend Brexit.
Subsequently he returned with very minor concessions, but said they were sufficient to recommend that we remain.

When the campaign gets under way, he and his right hand man George Osbourne proceed to bombard the electorate with an almost daily list of disasters that will befall us if we pull out:

Our national security will be threatened
Our mortgages will cost more
Our house prices will crash
Our pensions will be worthless
Our food will cost more due to import tarriffs (strange argument as it is the importer, not the exporter that decides the tariff if any)
The EU will refuse to trade with us (once again a strange argument when we are by far a net importer from the EU)

Just about the only thing we have not been promised is a plague of locusts

The feeling of many is that either our PM was aware of the devastating effect that Brexit would have on our economy, but played along with the renegotiation line to placate the electorate, or he's a complete liar coming up with every possible doom scenario to scare the electorate into voting to remain

If the vote is for Brexit, he has no one to blame other than himself.

Either way, his leadership of the UK is drawing to a close. It only needs 50 out of more than 300 Conservative MP's to demand a leadership contest. He's upset a lot more than that this year and will suffer the consequences immediately after the referendum.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14661
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 4:44 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
And they were forced to give virtually automatic work permits to EU citizens a decade ago.

Bullshit. They wanted something, and that was what they had to give for it. Or should a negotiating body like the EU just hand free access to their markets to anyone without getting something in return. A common market includes a common labor market.

Best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 5:36 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
IMO (and that of many UK citizens), the vast majority of the scaremongering is presently coming from the remain camp, and it is not surprising that it is labelled that way.

Unsurprising indeed, since leaving is almost by definition the riskier choice. The Leave camp can't do much scaremongering, since "remaining as we are" is not a very scary prospect.
 
victrola
Posts: 733
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:31 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:01 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 20):
And how will leaving the EU stop any of this? The EU will still offer British companies loans to set up new facilities in Europe. But if we are outside the EU, more of them are likely to take it.

If Brexit comes to pass, I would heavily recommend investing in land in Ireland. Lot's of businesses will be looking to relocate to an English speaking country with unfettered access to the European Union.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 6:27 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
Our national security will be threatened
Our mortgages will cost more
Our house prices will crash
Our pensions will be worthless
Our food will cost more due to import tarriffs (strange argument as it is the importer, not the exporter that decides the tariff if any)

Actually, you're just proving me right : in your text there isn't an attempt at reasomning, or sharing an economics view, with references and figures... it's just about the scaremongering B.S (which btw is all from your side ).

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):

The EU will refuse to trade with us (once again a strange argument when we are by far a net importer from the EU)

In order tro trade with the EU, you'd have to agree to a very important point : freee circulation of goods and persons... and as one of the main desires of the leavers is a curb on migration... there is a paradox there I can't see you solve... unless, as usual, you'd require an exceptional treatment ( I do not think you'll have it ).
( See the example of Switzerland above ).

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 26):
The Leave camp can't do much scaremongering, since "remaining as we are" is not a very scary prospect.

  
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1564
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:38 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 7:35 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 9):
Brexit is Boris Johnson, ex and largely ineffectual London Mayor,

Got to disagree with you on that one. Boris did do stuff such as Boris Bikes, improve the tech infra-structure around Old Street, but the role of London Major doesn't carry many powers in the first instance.
 
GDB
Posts: 14387
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 8:35 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 23):
Because we have allowed this to happen, and I certainly don't blame johnny foreigner. Benefits in Britain are too generous to, dare I say it, Brits. If you are of working age, fit, and unemployed, and there is a job picking fruit, it should be really simple. Take the job or get no benefits. I think it's similar in Spain with the Moroccan fruit pickers.

Another myth is how great the benefits system is, I've friends who have worked in that area for years and they've only got less generous, this has increased, a lot, since Cameron in 2010 but the direction was going that way and had been for years,
However it is an unwieldy system to manage, not helped by most ministers being clueless and if they are not, by the time they've found their feet they have moved on. The recently departed Duncan-Smith being the worst in the former case, he left before he was pushed after years of cock ups. Add in the usual IT failures too.
Even so, compared to the 60's and 70's here and also with any EU nations, the UK is not the best place to slum it on the dole, the papers, shock TV 'docs' can always find extreme examples but extreme also means uncommon, usually due to the issues with managing the system.

If we do Brexit those jobs that despite 6 years of a concerted cutback on benefits, which is lead to things like food banks emerging and has made the housing crisis worse, the UK still cannot fill, will simply be filled with immigrants from outside the EU. Which given the race and in many cases faith of many of them will not please your average UKIP voter and would finally make Farage's head explode. They'll be muttering about the good old days with the East Europeans, well sod them, if they vote and succeed at getting Bexit.
Boris briefly mentioned a points system like Australia, until it was pointed out that this applied to the UK would increase immigration threefold, oh dear, really doesn't do 'detail' does he? Or thinking, except about him in No.10 ASAP.

As former PM John Major pointed out, the world in many places has conditions that mean there are more people fleeing war, extreme poverty etc, than at any time since the end of WW2.
Add in globalisation in all it's forms, (and the industry this website is about is a big part of that) and you have a situation that won't be resolved by Brexit, if anything it will make it worse.

Quoting G-CIVP (Reply 29):
Got to disagree with you on that one. Boris did do stuff such as Boris Bikes, improve the tech infra-structure around Old Street, but the role of London Major doesn't carry many powers in the first instance.

The bikes project was started under his predecessor, he did do that cable car no-one uses, those buses that break down for triple the cost, said he'd prevent a 'Dubai-On-Thames' when approving construction - seen the London skyline recently? He also promised to do something about air pollution - it's worse than ever, promises on affordable housing forgotten.
I was never surprised, saw through that POS when he was still 'bumbling Boris', yes he was a good MC for the London games but who really thinks they'd have even got them had he been mayor in 2005, with his famous dislike of detail or any work that isn't pure self promotion?
But he was in favour of less restrictive immigration funnily enough.
 
ozglobal
Posts: 2598
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2004 7:33 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...rything-survey-shows-a7074311.html says:

Quote:

According to their research by Ipsos MORI, British people think far more EU citizens live in the UK than actually do, that we pay far more money to the EU budget than is the case, and that we significantly overestimate the amount of benefits paid to EU migrants.

I for one am not surprised.

It's hard to argue with the conclusion:

Quote:

Professor Anand Menon, Director of the UK in a Changing Europe, who co-authored the study said:

“There are obviously still high levels of ignorance about the EU, which is troubling so close to the referendum. However, it is not so surprising, given the lack of accurate information provided to the public, as well as the mistruths, exaggerations, and scaremongering that have taken place during this campaign. It’s now more imperative than ever that the public can be provided with as much factual information about the EU as possible before they cast their vote”

The is hardly surprising. Rupert Murdoch has always ideologically disposed the idea of the EU, believing strongly in the need for European countries to maintain their full independence. Those how want to understand what drives him should recognise that it is not the money, it is the making of 'history': he sees himself as a 'king-maker' and director of history. This gives a much more enduring power rush than mere money. He has been chipping away at the minds of low information Brits and Americans for decades. Trump and Brexit are largely his handiwork via Fox News in the US and his myriad of print and other media in the UK. Populist opportunists like UKIP and Trump have just rushed in to fill the fact vacuum and fear climate he has helped to engineer.
 
Redd
Posts: 1374
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:09 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
they were forced to give virtually automatic work permits to EU citizens a decade ago.

Not quite sure what you mean, Switzerland is a major employer of other nationalities because they need the expertise. Small country, small population. Switzerland would not be on the economic powerhouse level if it wasn't for the employment of Americans, Spanish, Polish, French etc,. business people they have working there at the moment.

I'd say at least a quarter of my friends have worked in Switzerland, many there from Monday to Friday and back in Warsaw on the weekend.

Switzerland has always functioned that way.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 9:42 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 28):
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):

The EU will refuse to trade with us (once again a strange argument when we are by far a net importer from the EU)

In order tro trade with the EU, you'd have to agree to a very important point : freee circulation of goods and persons... and as one of the main desires of the leavers is a curb on migration... there is a paradox there I can't see you solve... unless, as usual, you'd require an exceptional treatment ( I do not think you'll have it ).
( See the example of Switzerland above ).

So BMW, Audi and Mercedes will forgo the huge number of cars they presently sell into the UK, the Spanish will keep the huge mountain of oranges, salad crops etc, the French will throw away their biggest export market for champagne. Now thats scaremongering.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 28):

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 24):
Our national security will be threatened
Our mortgages will cost more
Our house prices will crash
Our pensions will be worthless
Our food will cost more due to import tarriffs (strange argument as it is the importer, not the exporter that decides the tariff if any)

Actually, you're just proving me right : in your text there isn't an attempt at reasomning, or sharing an economics view, with references and figures... it's just about the scaremongering B.S (which btw is all from your side ).

The argument regarding all these "facts" is that our PM did not mention any of them when he was engaged in the charade of pretending to renegotiate the treaty. If he had genuinely believed any of them he would have come out and said that withdrawal was a non starter.

As to leave not rebutting them with reasoning, remain haven't given any great explanation for them when stating them.
 
User avatar
zckls04
Posts: 2785
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 6:55 pm

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:08 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 33):
So BMW, Audi and Mercedes will forgo the huge number of cars they presently sell into the UK, the Spanish will keep the huge mountain of oranges, salad crops etc, the French will throw away their biggest export market for champagne. Now thats scaremongering.

Nobody's suggesting trade will cease entirely AFAIK, just that the cost of doing business with both the EU and markets such as China will increase.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:59 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 33):
So BMW, Audi and Merce9.7 % of the Netherlands, 5.5% of Italydes will forgo the huge number of cars they presently sell into the UK, the Spanish will keep the huge mountain of oranges,

Contrarily to porn, size hasn't got a lot of push in tgerms of trade, especially when we break it down to pairs of countries.
The UK may well export 45% of its trade with the EU couintries, but broken in terms of exchange between countries, the picture is a lot bleaker :
- Let's start with the relative importance of the UK in terms of exports : ranks 9th behind far smaller countries like countries the Netherlands or Italy, just narrowly beating Belgium- Luxemburg.
( It's noit surprising, the UK has a service economy more than anything else ).
Now, let's see the relative volume of British exports into EU countries :
Simple : 7.1% of Germany's imports, 7.3% of France's, 5.5% of Italy's, 7.3% of Spain's...
and in terms of imports :
4.1% of Germany's, 4.1% of France's ( Champagne isn't really the only thing France economy is about, you know)... 4.2% of Spain's...

Hardly anything to impress the Europeans and make them shiver with fear, does it ?

Especially as all these countries sell their products all over the world... they'll only cost more for non EU countries... and vice-versa.
I have this nagging feeling that you are grossly over-estimating the size and nature of your economy. ( remember, the Dutch and the Italians are doing better than you !)

Why do you arrogantly believe - no, assert - that the remainder of the EU countries will do you any favour at all ? They would be daft to do so as it might give some other europhobes the idea that it would be hunky-dory to leave as these Euro nincompoops will agree tio anything just to please you and beg you to do business with them ?

The above numbers come from the economic atlas published by the M.I.T.

Here
Just click on the magnifying glass top right to have access to the list of countries.

[Edited 2016-06-13 16:04:38]
 
User avatar
OA260
Posts: 25655
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

Re: RE: British Public Wrong About Nearly Everything

Tue Jun 14, 2016 10:50 pm

victrola wrote:
Quoting nighthawk (Reply 20):And how will leaving the EU stop any of this? The EU will still offer British companies loans to set up new facilities in Europe. But if we are outside the EU, more of them are likely to take it.

If Brexit comes to pass, I would heavily recommend investing in land in Ireland. Lot's of businesses will be looking to relocate to an English speaking country with unfettered access to the European Union.


Sadly that is a myth that was printed in the Irish newspapers the other day and the truth is they may get a bit but it will not be a boom as some suggest. Ireland has one of the lowest Corp taxes in EU and has attracted and more important maintained various big companies but most of the big ones interested are here already.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 41 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos